Ep. 519 Tony Apostolakos | Get US Market Ready with Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning into my new show. Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, author of the book how to get US Market Ready. And in my previous podcast, I shared some of the lessons I've learned from thirty years in the wine and spirits business helping brands enter and grow in the US market. This series will be dedicated to the personalities who have been working in the Italian wine sector in the US, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. I'll uncover the roads that they walked shedding light on current trends, business strategies, and their unique brands. So thanks for listening in, and let's get to the interview. Hi. This is Steve Ray, and welcome to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. Today, I'm very pleased to have, as a guest, Tony apostelakis, who is the US representative of of Massey, which is one of the more famous Italian brands. And I wanted to welcome on board and do a brief intro of himself, Tony. Welcome. Welcome, and thank you for having me today. As the name, I probably gave you the hint that I'm not Italian, but I'm from a Greek descent. I'm Canadian born living in the United States, representing Mazzie now since nineteen ninety nine, starting my my days in Canada. And then eventually being moved to the United States two thousand five and working for Masie directly since, since them residing in upstate, New York and traveling back and forth pre COVID, of course, to Italy on a regular basis and working alongside, multiple, colleagues and partners in the United States. Well, let's start off with talking about Massey in the US and explain the history of the company here and you've made some changes recently in the structure on how those changes have been made. Start with that. Yeah. Well, as you know, Santaro Baskani, our president, and, an owner of Massey, really was one of the pioneers of, not just Amaroni, but of Italian wine introducing it to Americans back in the sixties and seventies. He would come here regular and work with, our importers and our wholesalers introducing the entire market to Amarroni and Tav Pollicello. You know, since then, now we've been in the market for four or five decades. And, yes, twenty twenty was a remarkable year for for many, many things from from our business perspective. It was the year that we plan to make some dramatic and substantial changes to our footprint in the United States. And, we went through it, April with April of twenty twenty was the, the timeline when we were partnering, the Mazzi brand with Santa Margarita. We have our brand Citigua Lageri from the Noble Family of Tante Aligueri, was to partner with Vineyard brands of July of the same year. And, of course, we have, property in Babo Biale, the Necana Velsco Monte that we're also launching and begun to launch this prior to the pandemic, but launching during the pandemic as well too. So it's been a very challenging years for many, many reasons. Is that, Bumante that you mentioned, is that a prosecco? Or Yes. About the biotine prosecco Ciparione, Mazzi in in two thousand and sixteen, embarked upon, the majority ownership of, I have a really fantastic, small production, primarily Italian market based, well, to be at the name. We became, with the goal of really to expand it into the export markets, and it was really the first product that we had that didn't have the word Masie written on the front. It was a separate entity, and we started introducing it to the rest of the world outside of Italy back in two thousand seventeen, and we began the long careful process of building a proper network that would treat it really the same way that would you treat our single vineyard amaranis that it's, it's not a large production. It's not voluminous, but it's a premium DOCG products that we've, introduced alongside our other products in the United States. And twenty twenty was really, a major shift in the way we went to market for us. Explain that. So you've broken into three categories. Does that mean different importers and different distribution networks? Yeah. Look, you know, it there's been consolidation happening now for for many years in United States from the retail level to the wholesale level. And, you know, it's really created, a bottleneck for brands trying to gain entry into the United States. And, you know, Nancy is very fortunate because we have, great consumer recognition and, for years of tremendous brand equity. And the markets that we have distribution, the consumer has responded well in the United States was one of them. What Massey is also unique in that we have a multiple range of products and multiple wineries that we have from Argentina, Estemati to Pangato. We have, partnerships in, Trentino. We have properties, setagua La Gares as I mentioned in Balicello. We have property in Baldwin. So we have a file, a wide range of products. And, of course, we have the Mazzi brand, the Venetian Ambassador, and of course, the Sabamaroni camp will fit in. These are products that have been well known and well recognized. And, you know, in the seventies and eighties and nineties, you know, it was much different to bring up a whole portfolio into the market and have, importers execute alongside their wholesalers, but as consolidation has changed, we've had to really condense and get really focused with our products, and we decided that the best way to focus is to kind of not have the traditional way of doing business having one importer dedicated to the entire range of products, but really specialist importers that would specialize in the different types of products. And then, you know, because not all of our wineries have the same type of purpose, so to speak. We have small production, amoroni, with Cerrigueroa. We have Massey Madela. We have matching to Pangalto, we have such a broad range of products that we needed to have. People dedicated solely to those. And so we aligned ourselves with, Santa Margarita. Of course, we have many values that are similar from family owned to geography. They're a very well established white wine, and of course bubbles as well too. And of course, we're a red wine based company from Balicella, and it was really a perfect marriage and partnership that we can provide really focused to our wholesalers to say we have white from the far north, and we have red wines from Baupoixell as well too. Then, of course, we have a small production property that are already demanded to have importers that are really focused on the upper end, the the small production, the, the hand sale type of wines, and Vineyard brands was precisely this type of company. They specialize in Bordeaux and Burgundy and Champagne, and They're expanding their portfolio from Italy as well too. They're a wonderful company that we embarked this year. And, our Spomante, our our our Proseco. We have and not a national approach, but we have a series of regional companies that we focus on markets across the country, and we work directly with them. So we have a direct link with our partners, with our prosecco, and then we have partnerships with our importers or our main main products. You talked about focus, and I think that's that's pretty interesting. One of the challenges, one of the things many brands do is focus on a market like New York and a lot of smaller markets which represent significant opportunities and certainly with a large portfolio like yours. How does this new approach impact your focus on smaller markets? And now I'm thinking of like Michigan, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, Minnesota, and Colorado. Well, you know, for decades, one of the things that Massey has always had is balance in the United States market. That we we tried to treat all markets with equal importance. Of course, there is this gravitation of that people want to go to to New York and they want to go to San Francisco and Miami, and they're all wonderful cities. But, of course, the rest of the world wants to make it as they say in the same markets. But, you know, the value of a of a wine seller in Michigan is just as important to us as the value of a wine seller in Long Island, and that the person drink King Amaroni in Ohio or the person drinking Balicella in Colorado is just as important to us. So we've always tried to visit all these markets and work alongside our partners or wholesale importers in those markets. And in quite fact, we find that the loyalty is sometimes is even stronger in those markets because we've taken the time to invest to fly into these markets and spend time with them. So this new approach will just help us even do that more now because we can dedicate separate resources to these same brands, and we would try to work the entire country. One of the other things that's obviously go with having a huge impact, but but one of the things I think that was maybe in place is we're seeing a change in the role of the distributor salesperson, and it's been accelerated by COVID. Can you comment on that? Italian brands were really built from the restaurants. That's their first point of, introduction. And when the restaurant industry was decimated, to say, well, let's switch our products to retail. It's not that simple. So many, many brands suffered alongside all those restaurants. And today, many are still suffering with these restrictions. So it's, of course, it's the same thing with our wholesalers too. There has been a dramatic uptake in volume from the retail side, of course, because we're staying at home or we're ordering wines. But not enough to really compensate, at least for many brands, all the losses that they've suffered in their restaurants. And of course, the wholesalers has had to adapt as well too. And in some cases, the wholesalers, you know, their on premise forces, were either laid off or maybe temporarily laid off or some wore multiple hats where they focused on at taking care of the retailer, which, really became the only point or the main point of where the the consumer can buy their wines from. But there's no doubt it's challenging for the, the wholesalers because we all want our products to be sold, and they have many hats to wear. And, of course, it's much it's very challenging for them. And, you know, and they're the only ones in the front lines. I mean, most of us have been relegated to our homes. We're not traveling, but it's our wholesalers that are out there knocking on the doors. You know, wearing masks, building displays, and really doing all the difficult work on our behalf. So we have a lot of grad to, towards them, especially during these times. One of the changes that I've been reading a lot about and certainly have seen personally is We used to talk about the industry being divided into on premise versus off premise. And now we hear people talking about e premise, along with COVID having such a negative impact on the on premise side, it's also facilitated the growth and the progression of e commerce in beverage alcohol. And some people have said, we've moved twenty years in ten months. How is, Massey participating in this, or are you doing it through the importers and wholesalers? How are you addressing that market? Well, looking, of course, social media is, you know, to go to e commerce, you know, at one at one point, we said it was a channel, but really, it's a it's a marketplace. And COVID has shifted all of our attention, and now we're on Instagram or Facebook were on these famous wine publications website trying to get the reviews, the scores, comments, these large retailers from a national platform have done exceedingly well. Their their growth has been tremendous. But, you know, getting distribution with them is challenging if you don't have it, we've been fortunate because we've had the groundwork blade by our previous, importers and wholesaler. So the brand was set, so to speak, in many in many cases. So we were fortunate enough to have it to distribution and to have that, pull already. But, you know, what are we doing? You know, we have through our importers. We it has to be all online now, but, you know, it seems that Instagram is becoming a very important way of reaching out to to some all the a's who are still very important to us even though many restaurants still aren't where they should be, but they'll be back. But the only way we can communicate through them is is through that format. And of course, there's always advertising that you could do on certain publications, not the ones that sell wine, but the ones that are talking about wine. But so we're, I wouldn't say we're aggressive before, but we were embarking upon a large, platform. And I think we have an exceptional, internal communications team working out for us right now. Well, let's get some specific. I mean, a lot of what I hear is that, well, the burden of selling from distributor to retailers still at that level in the three tier system, and it isn't necessarily the brand manufacturer's responsibility. On the other hand, A lot of people tell me it is the supplier's responsibility to find ways to market and to adapt to the changes that are happening. So are there any particular e commerce channels that you guys have found success with, whether it's delivery within an hour like drizzly or minibar delivery or through pure play online things like wine dot com. But, look, Steve, you know, being a producer, of course, the responsibility and really the marketing and the distribution, those come directly from our importers and and our wholesaler So they can speak at greater length, I think, as to what what is working for them and what isn't. But from a a producer perspective, of course, you know, we want to gain access, but it's really the wholesaler and the importer that are really, the ones that are are managing that for us. And the ones that you're working with, do you feel that they're doing an okay job? Do you feel that you're seeing some real focus and attention from them, which is something new? Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think they've done a remarkable job in transitioning from restaurants and focusing their resources to words, retail, and not neglecting the restaurants because the restaurants will come back, and and they're still supporting them in terms of, buying product or or or helping them in some way. But really trying to shift their attention and the resource towards retail in terms of building proper merchandising materials and working alongside our retail partners and trying to get in depletions and distribution. But I I think they've done a remarkable job, of shifting, but still remembering that the restaurants are important and they will be back and and the brands will still continue to thrive in those restaurants. We can't we can't forget them. The retailers, have the luxury now of selecting more than ever which who gains entry into their their platform. So it's not easy to get access today. The demand is gotta be just overwhelming for them, and to get their attention is very, very difficult. But, you know, we have very good partners that have access to them right now, and that really is something that we appreciate and something that we need because without that type of partnerships in the United States, it's very, very difficult. It's not impossible to get access to retailers. So you need to have a strong link in the market and Vignard brands and Santo Margarita are very well established players. So I think you're in, this is a good segue to responsibilities of, a US based representative. You're in a somewhat of a not unique situation, but there aren't a lot of people like you, resident in the US and fully dedicated and employed by a company back in Italy. That's very different than, you know, a typical importer, marketing manager job or even the export manager based in the home country. Can you talk a little bit about the do's and don'ts of how you approach that and what you see as the function of the brand representative is in the United States. Well, look, I think first of all, the position, Sandra Boskayini, I think now for decades, always recognize that you needed to have a presence in all markets with your brand that extends beyond the label. And that's where the the person becomes very important. And the United States is a complicated market, as you know, Steven, it's, multiple levels of distribution, and for a ball of wine from our sellers to reach consumer, it has to be shipped to an importer. It has to be sold to a wholesaler who has to sell it to a retailer and then the consumer has to buy it. And what's the most important thing for a brand like Mazzie or many other brands similar to us is to tell the story And the story needs to be told in order for it to resonate with the consumer. And it's not as simple as just posting something on social media and saying, this is our story. It needs to be told through all the gatekeepers from the importer to the wholesaler. Down. And I think that's where the role of representatives are really tremendous. They're assisting and they're adding the goal is to add value, and not to really be a policing person, but to be there, to assist, to help strategize to make it clear what the channels and what what the direction of the brand is, what the priorities are, and to make sure that message gets pushed down, so to speak. It's one thing to sit in Italy, with your importers and agree on a plan, but that has to be executed. And it takes that message to be pushed down directly. And, you know, telling the story, I think, is the most important thing that brands like Madison need in the United States. Because we are not mainstream. We're not Cabernet. We're not Chardonnay. We're not Napa. We're Verona. We're Valoccella. We're Corvina. We're a Vasimiento. We're Nacinto Pangato with Corvina Malbec. It's you know, these are wines that have a great history and complexity, but those stories need to be told. And it's not just that a wine show where you touch people, but it has to be told every day through every person that touches these wines. As I said, there's many hands that have to touch our wine before they get to the mouths of the consumer. Well, that brings up a subject that's important to me. And that is messaging. What I've found is that, yes, stories need to be told, but the messaging or the the value proposition is different for each level in the chain. So, for example, the importer level, it may be exclusivity or strength in a particular category. In the case of distributor, it maybe have something to do with extent portfolio. And in the case of the retailer on end off premise, it's a function of margins. And their expectation of brands to help get butts and seats. That's what they need. A story is a great way to tell it, but the story differs from each level of the chain. Do you agree with that? Yeah. Of course. Look, an importer is looking they have a portfolio that they want to be able to deliver a complete portfolio to a wholesaler. So, if there's gaps, as they say, or areas where they meet, that's where a brand could play a role. The wholesaler doesn't probably have a lot of gaps in their portfolio because they have multiple suppliers. So for them, have another amoroni or another about It is not necessarily something that is a prior to them. Of course, it's welcomed. It's not it's not that it's not welcome, but for them, you know, profitability becomes important. And of course, when you have strong brands like Massey within wholesalers books, it certainly helps. We we like to think it helps to represent them showing that they have these great wines that they can access some of the best restaurants. So if the proposition could be from the very top, an importer has a hole in the portfolio, the wholesaler, if course, it could be profitability, but they also have access to great wines that they can deliver to their best clients so they get better access to the trade. And for the trade, what do they want? They want when they put something on their windows or on their shelves that they can sell it. That the they have equity behind it because they need these products to be in and out. And if you're a retailer, when you put a bottle of Massey on the shelf, the expectation is that it's sold. And of course, the marginal IT plays an important role, you know, we've never discounted our our brands, we're not discounters. So we like to think that the equity is high, so the marginality is there too. So the the proposition is a little bit different for for every level. But that begs the question. You said you took Massey off the label of some of these other call them now stand alone products. Yeah. You know, they they always wore their own entities. It's just that we had the Massey brand on the front of the label. And in order for us to really fulfill our goal of having a separate set of importers and different channels of distribution, then we really had to remove the front of the of the one and just had on the back label, bought and produced. You know, sergeant Guadalagetti is a property owned from Dante's descendants for over six hundred fifty years of winemaking in Balpolachella. You know, our expertise in being partnered with them comes from the winemaking side and from the distribution side. So it was only appropriate that we keep our names in the back label, but really in the front, it was rightly to be always called, said to go all the way, but we felt, years ago, that having the word mask, it was a benefit. But in this market, the realistic is that you can't, you know, legally have the word mask written on every label and expect to have separate types of importers managing it. So it was a combination of both in the first to make. But, you know, I think that, the brands, when when the consumer turns it, they have that trust and that consistency when you see the word mask you've written in the back. But when you see the front label, you see Citi Guadalajedi, for example, you'll see that it has the prestige and the history of a family at for over six centuries. So one of the things you mentioned to me, when we were originally talking about this, I was very interested in the role and function and fine tuning what you do as a brand representative. And one of the points you had made was, not to micro manage and to let the people at the various stages do what they're being, you know, have they're earning their money in supporting the brand. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, you know, we're a producer. You know, we're, we're a wine producer. We don't specialize in distribution. So for us to to tell the wholesaler how they should be managing I I've heard it done by others, but I I think it's not a it's not right. This is what their specialty is. I think that's gonna be pretty refreshing to distributors because I think the other case is more common, don't you think? Yeah. It is. I mean, it's very rare for I mean, rarely do you hear a wholesaler tell you, well, you should consider hanging the grapes for four days longer in the vine. You know, they don't tell us how to make wine, and maybe we shouldn't be telling them how to distribute it as their specialty. You know, they've made the investment in warehousing and that, and we have to trust that they've they've hired the proper people to execute. But once again, if we give them the proper message, so it all comes down to the proper message in our goal. And I think, you know, what you wanna do is you want give them confidence that when they do sell the wine or they open up the bottle of wine, that their customer's gonna say, yes. I'll take it. And then those people that buy, they'll they want them to be confident that when they open it at the table, that the consumer's gonna say this is fantastic. And I think that's what you have to do. You have to give everyone confidence. And you have to also understand that it takes years to build a brand. You know, so these thirty, sixty, ninety day blitzes that people do expecting to get results, you know, those are all short term. You have to have a long term plan that you can build off, and you have to gain distribution slowly and properly. And if you do that, then you have probably developed a good relationship with all your levels of distribution. If you're looking for a quick hit, then you're probably not gonna have a lot of good relationships because you're just asking them to do a favor or you're asking them to do something that really isn't, sustainable. And I think those are the things that you have to recognize. So it's not our job. To tell an importer how to manage their wholesaler, and it's not our job to tell the wholesaler how to manage their their network of, of customers. You know, we're there to offer whatever assistance we can from the wine, the winery side. Of course, there's meetings you hold, and you wanna see why you're doing well, and why you're not doing well, and what things we have to change. But those are things you do have to explore as partners, which is what we are. You know, we didn't hire anyone. We're we're all partners in this, and that's, I think, the mindset that you have to take. The sense I got from you when we were talking earlier was that it's everybody has to add value in whatever their area of strength is. And micromanaging or criticizing or questioning both at the importer and distributor level while it might be the issue that you're dealing with on, you know, like, you may have to give some reports back home on distribution and commenting on that. How do you balance those two things? I'm not sure if I may be balancing it properly. I mean, You know, I I think that, you get spoiled working with Masie because the results are positive when you have a brand that is strong and that there's not a plot of resistance, at each level of distribution when you're saying can you please represent this product? So, you know, we're very fortunate, in that case. But, yeah, if what one thing with our winery is that we're all realists, and we understand if the economy is suffering, if there's COVID, if there's a natural disasters, if there's consolidation, as long as there's a good reasoning for it and a plan for us to move away from it or be moved beyond it, I think that's the important thing. I think over three hundred years of winemaking, there's gonna be some ups and downs. As long as we're pointing in the right direction, we have confidence that we can grow. So I think we accept that sometimes you you may not necessarily regress, but not necessarily have the results that you want, but as long as you you're examining everything and and trying to improve, that's the most important thing. I think our wholesalers and our importers, they get beat up a lot. Right? Every month. I mean, at this Friday, I'll be doing a wholesaler launch of our of our pro cycle kind of held in, the mid Atlantic. And, you know, I'm I'll I have twenty five minutes to speak. I'll probably take fifteen because I'm sure they'll be delighted. Now that I don't take the full twenty five, I'll I'll make the point about our products, and I'll engage as much as I can. But there there could be twenty or thirty others speaking, or fifteen that morning. So there's a lot of pressure on them, and there's a lot of expectations that most, quite frankly, aren't always realistic, but they have to deal with it. Well, that whole concept of the general sales meeting, I think you're referring to to something like that where you're briefing an entire sales team on your product and just the Friday show where, you know, they may have ten or twenty suppliers giving presentations. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. But, you know, that's, you know, when COVID passes a pre COVID, that was one of our our main functions as working as representative traveling and working alongside everyone and getting into the vehicle and and opening wine together and and and selling it together. I think that's another important part of asking the message along. But doing that over a repeated basis over a long period of time, you know, if you're based in Italy and you can't visit your market once or twice a year at best, you know, it it's very difficult to establish anything long term. It's it's much more challenging. It's not impossible, but it's much more challenging. Well, that actually, that was one of the questions I was I wanted to pursue that know, you're physically here, and I think that is relatively unusual situation. What what can an export manager headquartered in the home country not accomplish that you can accomplish or vice versa? Well, look, I I think the relationships that you build with all the levels of distribution are very important. And, it's very difficult to do that when you're, when you don't, when you're not in the market. You can have good relationships, but you need I think you need to have plenty across the country. And you build that over time and trust. And, that's through repeated market visits because I think that if you're a wholesaler and you have a brand representative coming to your market, you want them to, to be a value. You don't want them take this guy around for the day. You know, it's because they are working that they trying to earn an income and service their clients, and you can't be a distraction. So the way you build that is by, you know, helping them sell wine. And I think the repeated visits are are really quite, quite beneficial over time. One of the lessons I learned early on, in my training from sales guys, checking the shelves, of course, when you're going into a store, but I remember in one instance back in the days when we used to wear suits, and there were some shelves that needed dusting. So I grabbed the duster and we dusted all the bottles and the that made the relationship that I had with that particular rep and also for that rep with that particular retailer. I'm not saying you can do that all the time, but it's that's what I mean. That's kind of a simple example of adding value when something needs to be done. Do it if you're capable. Yeah. I I agree. I agree. And first of all, you know, I think the days of wearing suits, when producers would show up in a retail shop and they'd be, you know, dressed in the nines, it's like, it seems out of place. Doesn't it? You have a retailer who's working all day, you know, they're in casual workholding, which they should be because they're working, and you have it's a hot summer day, and you have your representatives taking you in there. And, you know, how many times I've seen guys just dress just over the top, and I think you also have to kind of fit your market as well too. You know, I lived in Boulder when we first when I first moved here, Boulder, Colorado was, my home base for ten years. And it was, I was it's fantastic because you go to Aspen, and, you know, the people are wearing represents or wearing shorts, and they're selling wine at Portland. Every market is different. Of course, I still respect some formal markets where you have to wear a suit. I I understand that. But it's it's nice that you can have some flexibility and and be who you should be. Right? Oh, I get that. But it's hard for a lot of Italians to come and not look fabulous because of tailoring and taste and style It's easy for them. It's it's worked for me, but it's easy for them. You're right. So let's bring this to a close. What can somebody take away from this conversation and put to use immediately to help improve their situation or services that they're providing to the people? We just have to understand how this distribution system works and the pressures at each level that they have. I think if if you we take the time to understand the challenges that each level has and try and execute, I think would be better off from the importer to the wholesaler to the trade, to retail their restaurant tour. I think that would be the biggest thing of that, I think we should take away. The the flip side of that, and I guess the joke is, the old I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Well, the the role of a brand representative in the US is to help and to be attuned to the needs of all three levels in the system and be of value, provide stuff, whether it's high resolution images, further e commerce things, customized point of sale, sell sheets, those kinds of things. The more you're able to provide the tools that they need on a day to day basis, the more value you're bringing to the party. Okay. Thank you to, Tony Pastalakis. It's fun to say. There's always a lot of syllables and great names, who is the US representative for Massey in the United States. This is Steve Ray with, the get US market ready with Italian wine people. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you next week. Tony, once again. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you, Steve. This is Steve Ray. Same. Thanks again for listening. On behalf of the Italian wine podcast.