Ep. 723 Susannah Gold | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning into my new show. Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, author of the book how to get US Market Ready. And in my previous podcast, I shared some of the lessons I've learned from thirty years in the wine and spirits business helping brands enter and grow in the US market. This series will be dedicated to the personalities who have been working in the Italian wine sector in the US, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. I'll uncover the roads that they walked shedding light on current trends, business strategies, and their unique brands. So thanks for listening in, and let's get to the interview. Hi. This is Steve Ray, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. My guest this week is Susanna Gold, someone I've known for many, many years and has been deeply involved in the Italian wine industry. Susanna, welcome to the show. Thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Great. So tell us a little bit about you and your background in wine and why Italy? Sure. So my background in wine actually started when I was a kid and my dad made wine in my basement with our Italian neighbor. And so I've kind of always been interested in wine And I lived in Italy for fifteen years, and I wasn't working in the wine industry, but wine was my hobby. And so Where were you? Where were you living? Where is I living? At the beginning, I lived in Florence, then I went to graduate school in Bologna. I went to Johns Hopkins. And then I moved to Milan, where I was a financial journalist. And I lived in Milan for a long time, but I remember wanting to kind of travel to other regions of Italy, and people, a woman that I met said something really funny to me. She said Milan is nice because it's near Italy. And I thought, what does she mean? But then I understood what she meant. And so I decided to kind of travel to the other Italy, the one that was more, familiar to me, at least at that time. Through the wine business and through studying wine. So I began to study wine, and I got really interested in it. And then I did the Italian Somelier certificate at Ice in Milan. And I worked in my first wine fair serving wine, the very first Milana wine fair back in two thousand and four, and I was really excited. And sort of since then, I've just worked in the wine industry and really focused a lot on Italian wine. I do work with other countries, but Italy is a huge, focus for me. And also I just love Italy. Love everything about it. And you're a Via, the Italy international ambassador, which is quite an accomplishment. I am. So in between my ice certificate in two thousand and four and my Via certificate in twenty nineteen, I think I've gotten nine other wine certificates. And then since via, I've done more. So I have about ten or eleven, and many of them are about Italian wine. But, yes, certainly, the VINitally international ambassador program I did in two thousand nineteen, and it was hard, actually. Despite all of my Italian wine knowledge, it was not a walk in the park. And interestingly enough, it focused a lot on indigenous varieties, which is a topic that I'm very interested in and have been for a long time. So that was easier for me than perhaps for some other people because I I focus on it so much, but What's interesting about Italian wine is you can kind of slice it in so many different ways. I've done classes that focus more on the done nominations. I've done via which focuses more on the indigenous grape varieties. I mean, you can do it in a whole host of ways. Just a reference to your, comment about near Italy, which I thought was a great story. A similar one I've heard is somebody was asking this Italian guy, you know, have you been to Italy? He says, where do I need to go to big Italy? I got little Italy right here. No. This was actually a a British woman who lived in Milan, who I had met when I lived in Florence. And I guess I ran into her on the bus, and she was like, oh, Milan is nice. But, you know, because it's near Italy, meaning you can get on a plain, or you can drive two hours away, and you're kind of in the Italy of one's imagination, which is the Florence, the Venice, but actually Milan is an amazing city. And in the years since I've lived there, especially since the expo. Milan has been like a world class city now. It's a great city, and it's not as polluted as it was when I lived there. They used to joke that they were gonna kind of, sand down the mountains because Milan is in a bowl. It's surrounded by the Alps. And so the sky is much bluer now, but Milan is gorgeous now. It's a great place to live, actually. Really great place. Cool. I I was there I guess, three weeks ago, it was my first visit after the wine to wine thing. And I just loved seeing it. I went to LaScala, which was on my bucket list. What did you see? It was called El turco. And I think it I can now take it off my to do list, my bucket list, and I'll never go to an opera again. It was wonderful. Spectacular. La Scala was just spectacular. There's the whole city. Very reminiscent of Vienna, a similar kind of indesectable European pan European type of a of of a feel. Okay. So you're talking about indigenous varietals. That's a big subject. I've heard anywhere from numbers from four hundred to six hundred and some odd. The ones that you're paying attention to, is there something that they have in common that makes them relevant to today's world more so than maybe the four hundred and seventy eighth varietal that nobody ever moved up? You know, interestingly enough, I pay attention to some varieties because I work with producers who make those varieties. I pay attention to other varieties that I love that are so esoteric that almost nobody has ever heard of them, but I find, especially in a market, let's say, like, the New York market, you can find an incredible number of varieties on wine lists. Really, just it's actually amazing. I mean, since I've been back from Italy living here in the states, there's such a boom of native or indigenous varieties even on wine lists. So there are a lot more that are more popular. Something that I'm paying attention to now, that I had paid less attention to in the past. I'm kind of reevaluating Renatcha off I'd gone to some Anteparima in Italy, which are the new release events that take place in Tuscany. So for a few years, I was invited, and I went to San Jimignano, and I really rediscovered Revanath Chadice Sanjay Muniana, which I had completely kind of forgotten about, you know, the white grape variety from Tuscany. I love Vermentino as a grape variety. I love a lot of, I love a grape variety called Chilayajolo, which grows both in liguria and in Marima, but you don't find a lot of mono varietal chile giolo here in in America. But maybe one day we will. I know a couple of producers who make them, but I do a blog series on Indigenous varieties. And during COVID, I started to do an Instagram series on, indigenous varieties talking about a different variety each day. And it's, a fun series to do, but there are just so many of them that, you know, I can understand how people get confused. I was watching those. And then all of a sudden, my feed stopped, and I didn't notice it. And then I'm realizing when you're saying this now, is that what I thought that was really great. Very interesting, especially when it was something one that I knew. I'll have to resign up. But so you you said you're doing a blog. What's the name of the blog? Oh, my blog is Avinardo. So I started my blog in gosh. A long time ago. Two thousand eight. So I'm on year thirteen, and I know. And I do keep it going. I started kind of as a way to talk about how much I love Italy and how much I love Italian wine and kind of to travel when I lit when I moved back here in the United States, I was able to kind of, you know, take these little trips in my mind. You know, I always feel like I'm traveling through my wine glass. Let's say. Right? Maybe I'm drinking a multiple channel, and I'm fantasizing about being in a, or I'm drinking a, and I'm thinking about, you know, trip I took to Sicily a million years ago. And so that's how I started my blog. It's kind of a way to keep in touch with Italy and to write about it. And And then it's just kind of continued for all of these years. And I do update it. I mean, I don't write every day. Some months, I write a lot, some months I write less, but I do update it. I do write on my blog a lot. And you're also doing a podcast. I am. So also during COVID, I started a podcast, and the podcast focuses on something that I am very interested in, which is sustainability. So I do look at sustainability under the way that many Italian producers that I know look at it, which includes both your impact on land, water, and soil, meaning your soils, your, you know, the aquifers underneath your your water and air quality, but also the impact that it has on the employees that you have and on your local community. So sustainability sort of in a three hundred and sixty know, view of sustainability, not the way sometimes when in America, we focus on it. In America, I think we tend to separate sustainability into sustainability with air land and water, and then social responsibility kind of the employees and and your community. But in Italy, it's more, looked at as the same under the same rubric of sustainability. Okay. So sustainability, as I'm pronouncing it, versus biodynamics. Can you expound on that? Okay. So sustainability and biodynamics are two different things. You, biodynamics is a very specific group of practices that come from Rudolph Steiner's techniques and ideas in which a producer uses many of the suggestions that Rudolphsteiner had come up with and they used different preparations to prepare their soils and they plant according to the moon and the lunar phases. And that, a producer can be sustainable and also be biodynamic. But they're very different. Sustainability is kind of an an umbrella term, whereas biodynamics is a very specific set of tools and practices that producers use. So I I saw some research, well, not so recently now. Last year, I guess it was for mine intelligence. It was one blurb, and I've been a lot of people I've talked to have told me that's not true, but whatever was published on the internet. So it must be by somebody who matters. In any case, what they were saying was that Americans are more interested in sustainably produced products, not just wines that we're talking about here versus organic. That organic itself is much more of a niche thing. And I thought that was really interesting because well, as you know, to use the term organic in the US, it's something that gets regulated by the US Department of Agriculture. So it's a whole additional thing to TTB regulations and all that we deal with. But the fact that sustainability, which does not have any real, certainly no legal definition in the United States has more currency with consumers. What's your opinion on that? Okay. So my opinion on that is this. Organic is a term that Yes. If you're talking about a product that is wants to have a seal on it by the FDA, then that's a specific product that has to follow certain guidelines. Guidelines to be sustainable are much broader and looser, and a lot of people think the term sustainable is really greenwashing and just people using the term sustainable to mean they're trying to do good, but they don't have to follow any specific practices. I like the term sustainable because it reminds me of the UN sustainable development goals, which is why I think Americans are looking at it more closely. So as you know, the United Nations came out with the sustainable development goals and, their goals, specific goals, there are seventeen of them that impact different things such as global hunger, poverty, child labor, and they are from, that we have nine more years to reach the sustainable development goals. The the goals that, you know, the metrics that are have been set. So I think a lot of Americans know about the sustainable development goals, and a lot of big American corporations are now measuring themselves against the sustainable development goals with ESG, right, environment sustainability and governance. Right? So that's why I think a lot of Americans look at sustainability, but not just in, terms of the wine industry. I think in terms of many industry, trees, and I think that that has to do with ESG positions. There are a lot of, for example, sustainability positions in companies. Right? A lot of, you know, corporations and bigger companies have a sustainability manager. In terms of the wine business, there are, let's say, California, there's the sustainable wine awards. There are. Right? I I did. I I wasn't aware of what what it was, but by the way, I do love your term greenwashing. That's great. I don't know if you made it up, but it's wonderful. I just saw an invitation today to something called the Green Wine Future Conference. I like it. Yeah. Well, it's not my term, actually. The EPA uses that term, the environmental protection agency in the United States. Yes. So greenwashing is people who try to, you know, show that their product is somehow environmentally sound when it when it isn't. My view is that I'm sure a lot of people use these terms interchangeably and they're not interchangeable, but the important thing in my view at this point, because I am not a, I am not a purist. I am a practical person. So for me, the idea that we are paying attention to any of these terms and that they've kind of come into common parlance, and the way people look at products that they buy or drink is great. Of course, I want more, but I I'm glad that people are beginning to focus on this. You were we were talking about, varietals. We all know, well, most Americans, I think anybody who drinks wines, you know, prossecco, barolo, Kianti, you know, some of the the standards, if you will. Related there is what other varietals do you see gaining traction in the US that might become more mainstream? Okay. So as a wine, I think Brunllo has gained, I mean, has huge following. And, you know, it's made from Sanjay. So I think Sanjay really is a grape that many people know I think a grape that a lot more people are getting to know is Alyaniko, which is a grape that we know is from Southern Italy, and it comes in, you know, wines such as Taurasi, or just an an Alyaniko, you know, it's on its own, and it comes from basilicata and Campania, and also a little bit of Melissa, but it's great, spicy red variety that I think a lot more people are interested in, just like people now drink a Nebula de la language without having it be a barolo or a barber Esco, I think that, you know, the grape itself brings more people to the table. Now many people feel comfortable saying nebbiolo, right, when they're out. And a nebbiolo that's not a borolo is usually less expensive, so more affordable. So you'll see a nebbiolo de la language, let's say on a buy the glass for. Right? And so I think people are focused more on Montapulciano than they had been focused on in the past. Another very friendly red grape variety, I think Vermentino has gotten a lot of traction, a great white grape variety. I think people are reevaluating pinot grigio, actually, a lot in the Ramato version. So that coppery, almost orange wine kind of version of pinot grigio. I think people are looking at that. There's I mean, wine geeky, really geeky. People are focused on timorazo, which is a grape variety from Piedmont or Pillevergar, or those kind of, you know, grapes that that people are are really geeking out about. But I think sort of more mainstream, great varieties speaking, I definitely think that Montipulciano, Vermentino, and even, you know, I I work with them. So I'm I just wanna put that out there that I work with Ligana, but a lot of people have discovered even Ligana, which is made with the Traviano de Lugana varietal, which is interesting to me. Or there's also Traviano Debrut so that people are looking at. So, you know, a lot of a lot of things. I think mostly what's happening is people are more open also to Italian whites than they've been in the past. Not just Italian reds, and also to blends. So there are lots of Italian wines that are made with blends. Oh, that's super tuscans. I mean, that kinda created Yeah. An entirely new category. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I think I think there's just a lot more interest in in Italy in general and kind of more, you know, less less need for everything to be exactly as it always was. Oh, Barbara. I think more people are drinking Barbara than in the past or Delceto. I mean, there's just so many. There's so many. Actually, I was gonna mention both those. Those those are two of my favorites, but they're kind of in a region where other things are grown. They kinda get short shrift when on their own. The wines are great. Right. They do get short shrift, but if you think about it just purely from a price to quality ratio affordability, it's much cheaper to have a Dolceto on your wine list. As great by the glass port, right, than to have a burrito. So I think there's a lot more interest in that now, and that's what Italians drink on a daily basis. Right? So That was gonna be my point that what what they drink on a local basis, like in Castoza, You know, it's one wine from the coop, but it's wonderful. It's local. It's not expensive, and it it absolutely speaks to the region and the food that they produce. Yeah. No. Yes. Right. Thank you for thank you for bringing up Bianco D costanza. A very interesting line. And it just cracks me up how many people know about Bianca di costanza now here in America. They've done a lot of promotion, and they've really done a good job about it because when I lived in Italy, people were like, what? Bianca di costanza, you know, they didn't know anything about it. So it's great that now they're so kind of widely known here in America like Garda has done a great job of promoting their their wines. But the other big topic that I wanted to bring up, which I can't believe I didn't mention it, is all of the Italian Rosets that was up those. There are so many. So if, you know, if you look at Abruzzo, let's say, all the Chiraswala from Abruzzo that's made with Montipulciano are fantastic, great wines. Just did a tasting of that. Yeah. It was fabulous. Yeah. I mean, those are great. And then if you look at Lake Garda, you have Carreto from the lumbered side that, you know, from Valtennessee, and then you have Carreto from Bartolino, the Venito side. Or I all the rosatos that come from puglia made from indigenous grapes and pugil, like, you know, negar Marto and all of those amazing grape varieties. So there's just sussum and yellow. I mean, there's so many Great, great varieties. And there are a lot of Remathos that now peep Rosalto's that people are tasting now because there's such an interest in Rosay. So I've I've had the chance to, visit the Kiareto area on one of their trips and was it was Which one? The Bartolino side? The Bartolino side. We started that side of it. But, and I was very impressed by it all, but knowing what's going on in the US and the challenges of getting Rosay from anywhere other than the south of France, the negatives that come at you. It's a heart it's a hard sell, especially when they're going to get shelved in a sea of pink, and it's very hard to stand out other than just with a color. It's It it's a challenge. And I think we're starting to see the Rosay, the the the bloom pardon the poem, the bloom off the Rose, slowing down. Maybe it's the pandemic. Could be a lot of things. But I was really amazed back to the point about Kio. How versatile it was with so many different kinds of food. It was great. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're great. But, I mean, I I get your point, but Valicello is on the rise. And Valicello is made from the same great rides that Bartolino's made from, and they're right there. And so or mostly the same great varieties. And so I I don't agree with the idea that, you know, Rosay, the bloom is off the rose. I'd I'm not sure you're right about that. I don't know. Well, I'm I only I go by the numbers I see. So I and I from what I read in the trades, one of the unique things about Val Pollicella is it had a big hole it had to come out of way back two generations or two present generations ago, mine, yours. There was a company. I forget who it was, and they came out with, like, a three pack of Valpolicella, Bartolino, and Swave. And it was really crummy wine packaged in a little wooden box with the three of them. And a whole generation of people got to think that was the way those wines are supposed to take. And I think they've been trying to dig themselves out of that hole for the last fifty years. I think they're out. Okay. That's good to know because the wines are not just commercial. They're, you know, of the wow factor, I think. Yeah. I think they're absolutely the out of that hole. They have also done really, really impressive promotions throughout the pandemic. Yeah. No. I think they're out of the hole. I think Valleicello is on the rise. I think it's an easy wine to drink. It's an easy wine to pronounce. It's interesting. It's a affordable. People who know amarone might be interested to also try, they know it's right near Swave. It's in Verona. I mean, it's right near Verona. I think I think, actually, they're on an upswing. I really do. Yeah. And I think Repaso adds to it. You can add, that level of, added fruit and and not necessarily intensity, but, depth without going to Emerilini. You can. Although I'm actually talking about Valpolicella classico and superego, I think, are wines that are easier for many people to drink. Like Repaso, and I'm not only where they're exciting festive wines, are not everyday fair. Right? And for And they need an explanation. If They do. They need an explanation, and, you know, there's certainly a great long one. And I just I think that I think it's kind of one hand washes the other. So people wanna drink amerone Christmas, but they might wanna have a lighter version of that. So maybe they'll order a valpolicella for Thanksgiving. I just think there's a lot of room there and that Valpulicella's kind of moving into that space. My decision that that's what we're gonna do at Thanksgiving this year, which, of course, is big plus. You're gonna have Valpulicella? First, and then I'm gonna have Amararone with the with the dinner. Yeah. I mean, you know, what are you you eat ham? Do you eat turkey? What do you have? Yeah. Well, you know, the the challenge of Thanksgiving, there isn't any one pairing because the diversity of foods that are on the table. It's kind of like, what are you drinking? So I like to have a couple of wine glasses going with, you know, Bianco and Aracao and and and maybe something special. Right. And what about a rosato? Think about how great a rosato would be with your turkey. Yeah. Well, I think Turkey pretty much goes with everything. I have, you know, except for sweet wines, but it still wouldn't be bad. I because I like sweet wines. No. I mean, there's so many there's so many options, you know, for Thanksgiving. And I always think I should drink American wine, but I always end up drinking Italian wine. In my case, I drink what I know. Okay. So one of the other things, that you're very involved with is Italian women and wine. Tell us a little bit more about that. So, years and years ago, I started to interview Italian, women, and wine when I was living in Italy. And I just found there's so many of them really fascinating, and there's a great, organization. It's called Le Dona Delvino. And so at the time, I interviewed the president, and I've interviewed many interim presidents, I mean, not interim, many presidents of the organization since my first interview. And I've just always found that it's great to speak to women in the wine industry because they have a specific kind of, you know, thought process. And often, they weren't the first of their family to be given the opportunity to work in the industry, so they really have to make a choice. To dedicate their lives to the wine industry. And over the last fifteen years that I've been interviewing women in the wine industry, many have said to me, stop asking me about being a woman because it's not relevant that I'm a woman, you know, it's not re it has like it's not an issue anymore. I'm a female, but there's so many of us, and and this organization, is very supportive of women in the industry. So I like that too. I like the collegiality of it. Right? I like the fact that women support each other in the different regions and that they have every year they have an annual conference, and I used to love to go to their annual conference seminar at Vinitelli. It was always really great. You also are doing an Instagram series on it? I did a lot of Instagram interviews with women and wine. And it was really a lot of fun because I was not traveling at all for a year. This is the longest time in my life. I haven't been in Italy. I have not been since February of twenty twenty. And in, I would say, oh, twenty five plus years, I have that's the longest time I have not been in the country. So I kind of interviewed all of these women that I know or that would send me their wines or just that I wanted to interview because of something interesting they were making. Like, I did a great interview with a woman who makes Temporanio, in Tuscany. Really? You know, yeah. Mhmm. Price? Yep. Okay. Yeah. And it's delicious, actually. And she was really funny. So it was, fun to do that on Instagram, but I had started this series on my blog about I don't know. Ten years ago, eleven years ago, I had started the women and wine series. So I've done this for a long time, and, I'm working on two other projects that are related to women and, well, Italian women and wine, but I'm not gonna tell you what they are in this podcast because they actually ever come to fruition, then you can invite me back and we could talk about them. Okay. Well, that's a standing invitation. That's open to you. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. So we're running a little tight on time now. One of the things I like to do at the end of my podcast is to ask what the big takeaway is. When I was, a young PR writer, I went to communication or major communications. A guy once told me, he said, we write wrench stories. And I said, what do you mean? He said, me and somebody could read the story and they can go out and fix the tractor. So what's the wrench story of great concept? Right? So of all the things that we've talked about, and we've touched on a whole bunch of what are what is the one thing that people who are listening to maybe can act on right away and put into practice? So right away, make friends with your local, wine store owner and ask them what's new from Italy, what new varieties are in from Italy, and expand your horizons a little bit and see, what they have in the store. As simple as that. As simple as that. I mean, I'm all about education. I'm the brand ambassador for three regions and, you know, two producers, and I really, really, really, really care a lot about education. But it depends on what someone's doing in the industry. If there's a consumer, if they're a consumer, there's a lot there are a lot of free, consumer courses online. And then if you get more into it, then there are many paid courses that you can do online. And no matter how many wine classes and certificates I have, there's always something more to learn. And there's always someone more to learn from, and it's a great way to make friends across the world who share a huge passion with you. Yeah. I I think that's wonderful. In terms of, if people wanna reach out to you, do you wanna share your email and social handles, please? Sure. So if they wanna reach out to me, you can find me at my blog, which is avinata dot com, a v v I n a r e dot com or my, promotions company, which is Venieto Communications. Another hard word to spell, v I g n e t o. Communications is my company. Or you could find me at susanna gold dot com. That's another way to find me. Okay. Well, I wanna say a big thank you to Susanna, and I I should also mention that she's invited me to be a guest on her podcast. So I guess turnabout will be Yes. Oh, yes. Can I promote my my my podcast, my new series? So my new series on my podcast, I did about fifteen podcasts on sustainability, and I'm launching a new series as we lead up to Christmas about wine books and different wine books that people have written. And I wanna talk to Steve about his book about getting ready for the US market. Cool. Yeah. I've got a a library of things that I've read and consult And I don't think anybody else in my family will ever know or consult those books at all. Just stuff that dad's interested in, but not anybody else. In their world. In their world. Right. You never know. You never know. I mean, the passion as we all everybody has the same story that there was one kind of moment in time where you had a glass of wine and it was this magic ethereal emotional thing that it was far beyond just the liquid that you were drinking. That kinda what sent me on this whole pathway to be in the wine industry. Fantastic. Okay. So, a big thank you to Susanna Gold? Thank you. Thank you, Steve. For joining me. I appreciate it. And tune in next week. We'll have another edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people until then. This is Steve Ray. Thanks again for listening on behalf of the Italian wine podcast. Hi, everybody. Italian wine podcast celebrates its fourth anniversary this year, and we all love the great content they put out every day. Changing with Italian wine people has become a big part of our day, and the team in Verona needs to feel our love. 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