Ep. 832 Martin Sinkoff & Roger Bohmrich | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning into my new show. Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, author of the book how to get US Market Ready. And in my previous podcast, I shared some of the lessons I've learned from thirty years in the wine and spirits business helping brands enter and grow in the US market. This series will be dedicated to the personalities who have been working in the Italian wine sector in US, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. I'll uncover the roads that they walked shedding light on current trends, business strategies, and their unique brands. So thanks for listening in. And let's get to the interview. Hi. This is Steve Ray, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. Please to have his guests this week, Martin sinkoff and, Roger Bamrick of Martin sinkoff Associates. Both of them have extensive experience in the US market and and a pretty long term framework on which to view what's happening and how things are changing. So gentlemen, welcome to the show. Why don't you give us a little background on what each of you individually when you bring to the party, Roger, you're an MW, and and and Martin has a lot of visibility as well. Okay. I'll I'll start. Hi. This is Martin SIMoff and Steve. Thank you so much for inviting you, inviting us to, to your podcast. First of all, let me say that Roger and I both have been and Roger correct me here, but I think we've done everything in the wine business except make wine. But Roger, maybe, maybe there's something I've missed in your in your CD, but I think we've we've been in absolutely every every aspect of the trade from retail to wholesale to importing, to consulting, and and we've touched on every aspect of the wine. We're not analogous, but we are we are we are wine wine trade, professionals, and we've done everything in the wine trade. I've I've, I think that I without going into detail about my CV nor nor Rogers, although we can, I think that really summarizes it? And and by happy coincidence, we have both been directors of marketing at Frederick Wildman though at different at different periods, but each of us prior to that. And after that, have done many, many other things. And both of us are writers and both of us are public speakers. So we share a lot of, we share a lot of experience together and we share, we're we're just, absolutely. I I couldn't ask for a better partner. Let me put it that way than Roger Bommrich, because, we're extremely complimentary. And, What we do now is we provide strategic advice to wineries, to importers, to exporters, to single firms, all kinds of firms who are interested in access to the American market. That's basically in a nutshell what we do. And we have no one size fits all plan. We tailor every single plan to the needs of the client. And, adapt those needs to the to the to the to the ever changing market. So we're we're really, there to listen to the client and also to listen to the market and to understand what is happening in the market. We do a lot of research in the market itself. So we're we're on top of trends that are happening in the market as they happen, and we're constantly tasting wines from all over the world so that we're aware of what's happening in the world of wine and all the changing the the the changing climate and and terrain of of wines made in the world because there's wine production keeps changing as much as the market keeps changing. There's no There's no constant on either side, and we try and stay abreast or in fact in front of the changes that are happening in both places so that when we are asked to give advice to a client or provide advice in any other way when we're when Roger is lecturing, when I'm lecturing, when I'm writing, we're trying to bring current knowledge to to the four. Okay. So let's, jump right into it when we're, kinda, gonna break this into two categories. One is new to the US brands, and the other is brands with existing import or distributor relationships. All have, different, but, some overlapping issues. And, Roger, I'll ask you the first question. What what are the basic criteria that you're digging into? When you're evaluating a client's readiness for the US market if they haven't been here before. Well, Steve, I I'd say first, amongst a fairly long list of criteria, we would look at the scale and the orientation of the operation. In other words, is it a small estate making wines only from their own property, their own fruit, or are they medium size perhaps with vineyards of their own, but also purchasing on the outside or perhaps are they a larger concern, even one that's, making both wines and spirits. And in fact, Steve, in our time working together, Martin, and I have had clients, across that that spectrum. And do currently. What is the success that this winery is enjoying at home in their home market? Even if they're not exporting the United States, what about other export markets? Are they a player or are they really not, active? What's their cred? In other words, their reputation? What are they a norm quantity? Are they respected at home in their region of origin? Or are they more or less in the background? What sort of press do they get? Generally and specifically about the wines that they that they make. And then there's an elusive, element, the most complex perhaps, but not to be ignored. What's their mind set? Because that may well condition how they respond to the analysis and the recommendations that we will that we will offer them. And then, of course, there are some more, mundane criteria what sort of wines do they make? What are the origins that the denominations? The specific types are great varieties. Are these already present in the US? How familiar is the US consumer? With those names, the wine styles, and this is distinct from quality. That has to be studied. And Martin and I always do. We taste everything. We want to know how do their styles match or perhaps do not match US paced preferences? And then finally, there's the obvious point of the presentation. The packaging, is it up to date? Is it market ready in your terms, Steve? And what about the pricing? Are they competitive or does it raise questions? So those are some of the criteria that that, we should cite. Okay. So a whole range of things, but the the flip side of that question, I think, is what I have found is a lot of them are not US market ready to go into term, and that there is there are common lax or absences of knowledge that that they have. So they're not really in a position to answer the questions that that you've just raised. Martin, can you comment on that? We have found there are many many lacks and needs among among all of us at all times But the key point here is that, is that many clients are ready for their home markets, but they're not necessarily ready for the US export market in particular. And we find that many clients have been successful or are thinking about being successful in their home market and don't accept in some ways that the US market has its own requirements and that their success in their home markets does not guarantee in any way their success in the US market. So we that that's part of what Roger mentioned, as the mindset, we, we need to help them understand that they need to change channels a little bit when it comes to the United States market. And as Steve Jobs famously said, think different that English, but it was a famous term when it comes to the US market. Right. I always see that want the l y at the end of it. So how do you do that? I mean, I I have found that was one of the reasons why I wrote the book and, a large part of why I do the podcast that It it it's they they they don't have a basic understanding. They're farmers. Okay? They are not marketers. They are not, exporters necessarily. And so there's a lot of basic fundamentals that we may understand because we're in the international trade, but they don't. How do you teach them? Well, let me this is Roger again. Let let me let me try to address that. And I guess it it's broadly under the the heading of education. How do we how do we educate them? And and the first question is, is it really needed? And if so, in what form and in what detail, but what we provide Martin and I in, a very substantial document that we deliver to each client, education, information is embedded in everything that we write. All of our communication, our messaging to them provides education about the market, and it begins with understanding where do they fit potentially in the US market. And what we found is that, the wineries who approach of have every level of knowledge, every leverage from almost none or none, frankly, to a considerable amount. Let me give you two examples there to show you the the diversity we're currently engaged in a major development, project in the country of Georgia. We were approached by Rewinery, who admitted upfront to us. We need you because we don't know the US market. And that's, in fact, refreshing to hear if same time it places a considerable responsibility on our shoulders. So we have to explain in everything we do, at every step, why we're doing it, and why it's important for their eventual success. So that's at one end of this, continuum. The other and this is perhaps counterintuitive. We had a producer, a French estate owner who happened to have been before he bought this property, a major executive, of a multinational drinks company. Leave the names out. And and he he had traveled extensively in the United States. He had it lived for a period of time in the United States. He had a very solid understanding. Of the market. We we could jump over that function in a sense. But at the same time, Steve, what I would add editorialize in in this in this regard is that perhaps in the background, he was looking for more reinforcement of his own perceptions rather than new thinking. So, you know, even when you have someone who's very knowledgeable, perhaps that will only lead to other other issues. So very well, what? Nicely. Please. Go ahead. I wanna jump in there too, Steve, because you've you said something that that I I'd like to correct our clients are not farmers. Some of the they all farm in some form or fashion because they're making wine, but they are many are very, very sophisticated as Roger mentioned. They have companies. They have infrastructures. They're not single small growers in a in a in a in an appalachian anywhere in the world. They they have the ability to export. They're not single farmers who are coming to a regional syndicate or growers association trying hoping to get into the United States. Those are not on the whole our clients. Our clients are are are established businesses, whether they're domains or businesses or exporters, they're they're not single single farmers. Okay. Fair enough. The corollary to those two questions, though, is, when it becomes time to present a brand to prospective distributors, prospective importers. However, their they plan to, you know, the the route to market solution that that they're using. That becomes a challenge, whether you're gonna be the one speaking on their behalf, whether they're gonna be doing the the the chasing and cold calling or warm calling, whatever it happens to be. How do you prepare them to be ready to have that conversation with importers and distributors? Which are gonna have very different points of interest than say consumers about what quality of the wine and all that kind of stuff or style of them. So are you asking Steve about about the added value that we bring or you're asking about how we manage, actually manage that role? The latter, more than the added value. Yeah. Alright. Well, I I what what I would say, this is Roger once more. I would say that It's universal across all our clients that we develop a plan. It's a custom plan, which includes very specific recommendations for importers and or distributors. And there are significant variations in these plans because they're tailored to the individual producers and their own objectives, but the key the key message here with that that Martin and I both would like to, communicate to to everyone listening, and to potential clients, especially is that we are not sales agents or brokers. There are a lot of people around the world who perform those those commercial functions. That's that's not what we do in in Martin's excellent introduction. He talked about the fact that we are strategic advisors. The actual outreach, Steve, to an importer or to a distributor has to be done, we believe, by the client, by the winery. We also want to avoid any potential, well, shall we call them conflicts of interests that might arise if we start to play that role? And what's more importers and distributors, I think want to deal directly with the source. They really don't want an intermediary such as ourselves. Now what can we do? We can be and we are facilitators We can point the client in the right direction. We can help them develop a pitch. We can field questions as they go. We, in fact, can remain on call to answer questions and provide direction. Okay. Fair enough moving further in in terms of what the expectations are on the trade side in in the US. You know, we we've all heard the phrase feet on the street, boots on the ground, and this whole concept of brand ambassadors, which I think it started as Brand ambassador's maybe fifteen, twenty years ago, and I've found is now kind of an expectation on the part of importers and distributors. And I I question the role of Brand ambassador's today in the marketplace as it is compared to where it was fifteen, twenty years ago, what's your guys' point of view on the need for and the role of, quote, unquote, feet on the street? This is Martin Sinkoff. Feet on the street is a is a it's an old term a useful term in a certain way, but I think it's a better to to think about it as direct contact with the client. And I think in today, in a in a world that has been consumed by COVID, frankly, with the with the virus and, and where travel has been restricted. Feed on the street is still valid, but it has to be reinterpreted. It's how do how do you make a direct client, a direct contact, excuse me, with the client so that it's not anonymous because we all know, everyone who's been in the trade knows that everyone gets thousands of emails all the time suggesting a wine for this or that, those are useless. And they, and they, they generally go right into the into the trash bin, but there are many other ways now with social media with the telephone, an old appliance, but that actually has become more useful because it's voice to voice with a prospective client. I wanna talk to you. I wanna listen to you. I wanna hear you. It's another way of feeling of of developing a relationship that actually can be as effective as someone calling on an account. So direct contact is absolutely essential, but it may not necessarily mean getting on an airplane and traveling city to city, which was the old way of thinking about feet on the ground, and it may not mean a brand ambassador. And I agree with you, Steven, the brand ambassador is no longer, no longer that useful because until a product is sold and on the shelf or on a wine list, what has the ambassador done? Talk about the wine? Where is where where does where is the where is the the commercial value I I always tell people, I mean, I've told people not necessarily our clients, but if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, has it fallen? You know, if a wine is not on the shelf and hasn't been tasted, what is it what is the value? The value is in the contact with the consumer at some level. And that is still absolutely crucial, but how to make that contact has changed. And so that's what we look at with our clients. And as Roger said, each client is different. And, we tailor the needs of the client. Again, we we don't develop here as your list of all distributors in the United States. We curate, and that's an overused term, but we curate the list of distributors that we think, and the methods of distribution because it may be online distribution. It may be it may it may there are all kinds of, methods to get into the market now, that may be more appropriate for one kind of client than they are for another client kind of client. A corollary, again, to that one, is market selection. In many cases, you know, the initial perspective people have is the US is one market, and we in the industry know it's fifty two different markets, the individual states, as well as Washington, DC and Montgomery County, Maryland. But there's a discount neck between, especially with new to the US producers who say, I wanna come to the US, and often they wanna go to the states that have the the biggest volume in their category maybe, and it often is California and New York, and there's that's fraught with all kinds of issues and problems that we all deal with. How do you get them focused on some narrower target rather than saying, look at the US, paint the States, you know, do the whole country? Well, this is Roger once more. I I would say, that, impractical plans and expectations are normal, not the exception. A very a very few clients, and this is not obviously to to criticize them. It's just a a general, a general statement of very few, a rare few come to us with no preconceptions regardless of their knowledge, of, of the marketplace. And what why would this be? Well, let's consider that there are cultural differences to begin with that that that provide them a different lens through which they view the market and their potential success and different modalities, both legal and also commercial. They may all share one thing. Well, many of them, let's say unrealistic expectations of their own success. They may not they may not fully grasp how their country or their region of origin or the types of wines they make represent probably just a very small share of the total US wine market. So, yes, to a degree, they have They have blinders and to take it one step further, Steve, an area that that I know you, have written about it and and have developed, excellent, resource materials for. They don't really understand all the mechanisms of the marketplace. The strategies, the tactics needed to build their brand starting with just the marketing support and a marketing plan, the techniques to motivate salespeople, how to get their product promoted at retail, how to increase wineless placements by the glass features. Much of that is sort of, lost in the ether. So I think as we switch to brands with existing in import and distributor relationships, if we if we think of somebody who maybe has, has clarified their view that maybe they're gonna focus on, you know, the Northeast, Massachusetts Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, which is common for just because geographically they're close together. But their expectations of what the distributor is going to do is is oftentimes not in sync with what the distributors view is. I remember once I was in Austria and and one of the guys I was talking with there says, I don't understand. Why don't they just sell? And I, you know, tried to explain to them, well, your brand is such a tiny, you know, just a a speck in the in the bucket for them. The it's not that kind of focus that you're expecting is not warranted by your brand because their focus is on bigger brands. Can you comment on that? Either I'll I'll I'll I'll simply say. I think we've we've said this before that If a small producer tries to go to a large distributor, the chances of success are very, very low. If a small producer, for example, and this relates to what you said, Steve, you said there are fifty markets plus DC. There are many more than fifty markets. The market in Austin, Texas is very different from the market in Dallas, Texas. The market in Dallas, Texas is very different from the market in Lubbock, Texas. The market in Lubbock, Texas is very different from the market in Corpus Christi, and you can take every state in the United States And the the point is is regional differences are very, very important. So if if the producer is small, if a small producer were to come to us, we would I I can't say exactly what we'd say because I don't know which producer would be. I'm simply making a hypothetical the situation, but we might recommend as an example that that producer concentrate on one market in one city with one local distributor and build a market there for some reputation and build press in that market and build some visibility. This is, again, completely hypothetical because if the producer is that small chances are very frankly, and I I I don't I hope this doesn't sound immodest, but they probably don't can't pay a consulting company like like like ourselves. But the point is is that hypothetically, that's what we would recommend. So now if the producer is very large, and has a lot of power and a lot of volume for them to go to small regional distributors is also not a recipe for success because although they may they they may be able to sell something, they will never sell to their capacity, and they will never achieve the distribution that they need in large stores or in the Costco or in, in supermarkets like Safeway or or H E B or other supermarket chain. So again, adapting the needs and the abilities of the client, the producer client with the array of opportunity in the United States market is what we do and what is essential. It's not it it can't be one size fits all. The market is too is too complex on both sides. The producing market and the and and the demand market or the the consumer market. Okay. Can can you give us a specific example? We've been talking in in theoretical or general or or is there a particular client instance where you've solved the problem that puts us into perspective that you can share? Well, I'll I'll just start and then I'll let I'll I'll let Roger comment. First of all, we will not really reveal the names of any of our clients. That that's number one. Protect them and because that's the way we work. But number two, I would like to I would like to think that with every client we've had, we've been successful. So I'll simply leave it at that. But I'll let Roger comment further as as he wishes. Yeah. Well, I I think, there are some examples, Steve, that we could share about how do we really how do we address these these problems that you're that you're describing and that Martin discussed? And I think it it starts with really understanding what the stress points are. I would use that that term. Often with a lot of the wineries that we deal with, it's simply that sales by which they mean shipments from their sellers, not actual presence in the marketplace. Shipments, sales are not what they want them to be or what they think is reasonable. Often we actually do hear or it's implicit, a winemaker saying, I just wanna sell more wine, quote, unquote. It's as basic as that. So our our analysis, the work that that Martin and I do, leads to very specific recommendations for each client, and no two are identical. So let me give you some examples. Alright? For example, a French brand we worked with was present in the United States already. They had a very small network of individual wholesalers, and they came to us because they were generally dissatisfied. Yes. Of course. With their sales, but also with their progress. So what did we do? How did we address this particular problem? Well, first, we needed to know what it really was. Was it simply what they told us or was it larger than that? Did it have to do, in fact, perhaps with the products themselves? Did it have to do with packaging? Was their pricing wrong? So we first had to conduct what we would call a strategic analysis and and, not to belabor the point, but I think both Martin and I have been communicating that this is something that we do this is a value and a service that we provide to clients that probably is uncommon. There aren't many people doing what what Martin and I do. And sometimes people resist because they're gonna get right down to the very the very basic level without going through the thought process for us. So after we looked, in this particular case, with this winery, Steve, in France, after we did our analysis, we said, you know what? The wines are sound. The packaging is right for the marketplace, and the pricing works. So indeed, the problem is simply one of market access. Of distribution. So we propose here's very specifically what we told Diswinery. We'll tell you three ways to improve your position on the US market. First, you make a dramatic change. You move from your very small network of wholesalers to a single national importer, and we know that could have in the short term disruptive effects because of an added margin and other aspects, but we offered them that as a potential step to a much better long term position. Or we told them You could divide your range because they had distinct elements. Sub brands within their range, you could divide your range and move to two different networks. Each one dedicated to different products. Or finally, option c, maintain what you have. You already have a base. You already have some clients in the US, but add distributors in the missing markets, especially in the markets of importance. And in fact, the denouement was that they opted for c to keep things as they are, but build on it. So, markets like, second we would call secondary Minnesota, Colorado or Not necessarily. Oh. Well, they were actually missing some some very important markets, not only secondary markets. Big ones? Yeah. Yeah. I I would I would add Steve there that, we had another client in France and this client, this client had a very diverse range, but similar to the client, Roger is mentioning, had a small, small, small, small, small base, really, very, very small. But what we found with this client was very interesting, actually. They had wines that were designated as Appalachian wines from distinctive appalachians in France, and then they had a range of varietal wines, and then they had a range of kind of fantasy wines of new world, you know, young, you know, millennial, whatever it's called now, millennial ones, with fanciful names and so on, and all good. And as Roger said, in, indeed, good packaging, good pricing, good products, but the range would never be acceptable. The whole group of ones, there were too many ones, and they would never be acceptable to any one distributor. And we made a very, very clear recommendation to this client about how to define their range, and we actually said to them you choose. You have two choices. Choice a, choice b, you choose, because you it doesn't mean that you won't be able to sell more wine from the other ranges, but you need to take a strong step forward in one direction or another. And each and the choice you make will have will have a direct will will directly affect the distributors you choose. So, again, we follow them from step by step by step by step to help them design again, that's the keyword that goes with our our sense of tailoring and and and and really defining very specifically to help them design their distribution network. I like that phrase. That's good. Let's, talk a little bit about Italy. It's kind of a a general question here. But when you think about Italy, what what do you see as the major problems and opportunities that the country faces in this we can talk about the post COVID world, the challenges of on premise, the range of varietals, and, native varietals, indigenous, varietals, varieties that are there. What what what is your perspective on on Italy and, problems and opportunity? Right. Yeah. And and let me say this. Many countries Steve would love to have the share of mind Absolutely. That Italy has in the United States. They're it's not just with respect to wine. You know, there's a a huge comfort level with all things Italian currently in the United States. So, there are so many other countries who would who would, you know, pay dearly to to achieve that. So I when I think about Italy, I think about expanding on a very large base. Everything that, you know, I I look at it very positively. To me, Steve, almost everything based on a global picture is going right for Italy in the United States. Italy remains incredibly dynamic. Think about Italian wines ten years ago or twenty years ago. Think about what has really been a transformation. Chianti, from Fiasco to, you know, to participants. Right. And and well beyond that. Think about the packaging or revolution that has has taken place in Italy over over recent decades. The quality of the wine, the science of winemaking, the final result. There are very positive attributes all the way across the Italian Weinstein. It is relatively easy thinking about the US marketplace to introduce a new brand of Italian wine, as long as it's just not another one based on, let's say, pinot grigio, for example. You know, there's so much room to maneuver. Again, very few countries, have that latitude. Yeah. I agree. Martin, do you have a comment on that? I'm simply going to add to what Roger said with, my personal experience abroad. I live now in Tel Aviv, and I have I I think the most popular food in Tel Aviv is pizza. Pizza and pizza delivery. Pizza is is is a common staple, and it's a common staple worldwide now. In other words, and where there is Italian food there is Italian culture and where there's Italian food in Italian culture, there's a natural natural environment in the natural market for Italian wine. And this is a huge strength This is a major force for building Italian wine brands, is the love the entire world's love or the Italian western world's love, but I I don't know about the Asian world, but the entire western world's love of Italian food pass up pizza. All and and the discovery of foods from the north to the south of Italy. This paves the way for the Italian market. And there is no country, no wine producing country, including France, that has that power. Yes. They're tapas restaurants, and yes, of course, French restaurants occupy share of mind in in many, many ways. But at the at the basic level, really at the entry level of the market, Italy rules the market. Yeah. Interesting point. And I I I think it's it's also when we think about this new generation, there's been a lot of publicity about Rob McMillan's recent Silicon Valley report that the wine industry is not really embracing millennials or reaching out to millennials. It's all discovery. And we know discovery is critically important to that audience, and there's so much to discover in Italy. I mean, if you haven't had Kianti, that's wonderful to discuss. It did discover it. Just as much as it might be, Fiano Davalino or, you know, Craco De Tufo or you know, even Sabranino de Montevall kind of oddball, not oddball wines, but, you know, tougher wines to appreciate. Italy, I I was talking about Amarillo versus Lubbock. I mean, this is gonna sound a little bit strange to make this comparison, but Italy is so extraordinarily diverse. It's so extraordinarily diverse, both, and much more diverse in many ways than countries like France or Spain because of its its, because of the way it evolved geopolitically, And if you go from Bolzano or from the Alto Adi Jay to Sicily, you're going from from one world to another world. It's quite different. If you go from Lille to to to Luz, you're still in the same country. You know where they're saying you're gonna hear different accents. But you're still in the same country. But if you go from the Alto Adi Jay to Palermo, you may not know you or to Sardinia. You may not know you're in the same country. And this is a strength, and it's also obviously from a political point of view, perhaps a weakness, but the point is it's very, very specific to Italy. And, I would add one more thing about Italy that I've always found so fascinating is that if you look at the at the geography of Italy, Although it's a peninsula, it's really an island because it is separated from the rest of Europe by the Alps and the dolomites on the north. And then by by the the sea on the south, It it's it's completely and this is why you have all of these indigenous varietals that are grown nowhere else in the world in many cases, although now some of them are exported. But you have this amazing, amazing diversity of grape varieties that really are grown nowhere else in the world because Italy has been separated in in many, many ways. And again, this is a strength and a weakness, but it certainly is is a is a something that Italians on the whole, if you want if you can take them as a whole, can can celebrate. Okay. Great. I like to close my interviews with, a question about the big takeaway. What of, of all the things that we talked about for someone listening to this, is there some practical thing they can put to use immediately from some of the things that we discussed? Does something jump out? At, either or both of you? Well, this is Roger. Why don't I, share a thought or two with you? And then Martin can can conclude things. I would say, and I'm this is in the context of our conversation. Steve today and and the work that that Martin and I do. I would say with many foreign wineries, we have to realize that they don't know what they don't know. About the US market. So we need to we we we need to peel away the the the facade, the top layer, and get to the essence of of the issue. So I would say be prepared to listen carefully, keep it real honest and constructive. Absolutely. I I I will just add to that, but it's really the same thing just said in a different way and with a different voice. Be curious, be open minded, be be be optimistic and be forward thinking. Don't come, don't come with a canned set of ideas, come come with open hands, an open heart, and and as Roger said, listen and listen and look and and be curious and be prepared to change for that. Okay. So, thank you. This, has been get US market ready with Italian wine people. My guest this week are Roger Bomrich and Martin sinkoff of Martin sinkoff and Associates. I wanna thank them for sharing their time with me today, gentlemen. Thank you. Please, Steve. Thank you so much. Thank you, Steve. And, if they wanted, if somebody wanted to get a hold of you guys, how would they do that? Is there an email you wanna use? I think that the best for us both is to go to our website because our contacts are both there. And more information is there, and that is w w w dot Syncov, my name, our company name, s I n k o f f dot com, And there, you can find Roger's email. You can find my email. You can find information about us. You can find our ways of working. You can find lots of press, which is interesting not only about us, but by us, both individually and together. And, Lots of information. So people can really do a little bit of background research, but our contact is there, including our phone numbers, I think, and, not from top of my mind, but easy to get in touch with us through the website. Okay. Great. So big, thank you to, Martin and Roger, and for our listeners, join us next week for another edition of Get US market ready with Italian wine people. This is Steve Ray. Thanks again for listening on behalf of the Italian wine podcast. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Living Denon. I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.