Ep. 934 Bourcard Nesin | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, from the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hi. This is Yvary, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian Hawaiian people on the Italian wine podcast. This week, I'm pleased to have as a guest, burkhart Nesen of Rabbobank. Bercart welcome to the show. Hey. Wonderful. To be here, I love doing podcasts. So to that end, you do your own podcast. Tell us about that. Yeah. It's not too dissimilar from what you do here. You know, we we tend to invite a high profile guest. So I would never be allowed on my own show, but that sounds like I'm insulting yours no. But, we basically have people from constellation brands, ABI, Wall Street Journal on to talk about the beverages industry for people who make decisions in the beverage industry. So I should say it's called liquid assets. It's a very good show. And, you know, thanks for having me on yours. And it it's available wherever podcasts are sold, kind of a thing out today. If you don't know how to find a podcast, how are you listening to this? Tell us a little bit about your role and responsibility at Robobank? Yeah. Robobank is a bank. It's a does banking stuff, and it, it finances and, supports the the beverages industry, within that context. I'm kind of their internal expert on the on beverages and and their workings of the market. And so, you know, I build networks and do research and produce podcasts, and it just so happens one of my principal remits is e commerce. And, why is that my remit? I'm under forty years old. And, That's basically it. I am young. And therefore, my business said, Kirkhart, e commerce. Your thing. Yeah. I remember there was a movie back, like, in the seventies, I think. It said, son, I only have one word for you. Plastics. Dustin Hoffman in the graduate, and that dates me. Anyway, So let's cut to the chase about e commerce. And you recently published a document called the e commerce playbook twenty twenty two, which I think is a seminal publication, and I think it's, opened a lot of people's eyes to some fundamental issues that they have to deal with because they're mission critical these days. And, the big conclusions that you came to are why don't you tell us? Yeah. I mean, it's helpful to understand what the report is. So the report is basically me going out into the market and figuring out how big the US alcohol e commerce market is. And that's a very hard task. I don't know any organizations or data sources that do it as well as I do. And so that's its top line thing. The top line thing is this is how big the opportunity is, but that's not the takeaway I want companies to have. The the takeaway I want companies to have is, you know, here, this is the opportunity, but the real problem isn't you know, the size of the opportunity, but that alcohol companies aren't investing enough in their e commerce capabilities. And they're underestimating the work it takes to succeed online, and they're underestimating, more importantly, how much online sales, e commerce, digital, retail media, and your overall digital presence influences your brand's performance, online, and off. Okay. That that's a lot of meat to covers. Let's jump right into it. And the last point about how important it is for brand communications is one I think that's often overlooked and people executives tend to hold e commerce and for that matter, social media to a higher standard than they would traditional advertising. Yeah. I mean, I think fundamentally, there's this, at the core of of my messages is something called digitally influence sales. Right? Digital influence sales are basically the idea that every time somebody sees your brand, It's an opportunity to tell your story. And whether that's on a website or in a store with a merchandising sign or, you know, an expert review with a ninety two point rating on it, whatever. Like, those are all chances to to build your brand. And because consumers are more buried in their phone, than ever, and they're more likely to walk into oncoming traffic than look at a billboard. The chances are, first time they're gonna see your brand is on the internet. And if your brand isn't looking beautiful and isn't looking great. It's not gonna perform and get people's attention in store and online. Why do people or executives apply a different standard to digital media, say social media spend or or retail media spend? It comes fundamentally down to the idea that you know, you can more easily measure digital media's performance in terms of return on advertising spend or roas. But if you negate those digitally influenced sales, you know, you're gonna undervalue it. So I think that's the fundamental problem there. So e commerce has grown dramatically. The numbers I think you've used was, I think, something like four to six percent prior to the pandemic, six to eight percent of total sales now and adding towards twelve to fifteen and on to twenty and perhaps even more. One of the points you made is that as e commerce increases, there will be an inflection point where it exceeds traditional off premise sales. Can you comment on that? Yeah. So before the pandemic, wine sales specifically less than four percent were online in the US. Now it's more than than ten percent closer to eleven percent. And, in terms of, percentage of sales, that's getting really close to the the, you know, twenty percent of on premise sales that that, you know, in terms of, volumes that that, wine brands sell in the on premise. And it's a very good moment because, as I just kinda pointed out, a lot of people are discovering your brands for the first time online. And more than anything, the online consumer tends to be way younger and wealthy and, no more urban than your typical consumer. And this is the consumer that the wine industry has been terrified about losing for for so long. If you wanna find them, they're probably gonna be online. And so it's, you know, the the e commerce is as much a brand building and marketing channel as it is a sales channel, and it is a tenth of, wine sales overall in the US. And, you know, it's probably a moment to recognize that the e commerce space is starting to look and sound a lot like the on premise, both in scale and purpose. And if you look as a brand, the resources and, resourcing you give to your on premise business, and then look at the resourcing you give to e commerce business, it might be a fairly good indicator of whether or not you're investing enough. And the answer is almost universally no. Is it company you're not investing enough? So to be clear, though, we're not saying that on premise is going away. We're merely saying that the size of, that piece of the business is going to be eclipsed by e commerce, and that on premise still plays a significant role. Obviously, it's where you can taste something, which is the one thing you can't do. But that's also really important to you understand that e commerce is also where you can taste something. Right? If somebody's buying your brand for the first time, online. That is not an online only transaction. Eventually, there's a box that arrives your house and inside the box is a bottle. And you grab the bottle, you put it in your mouth, or if you if you're like me, pour it in the glass, and you taste the wine, and you hold the bottle, and you check it out, and you're like, wow, this is really cool. Chances are, next time you see that one in the supermarket, you're gonna buy it there too because it was good and delicious. Right? So it's really important to understand that e commerce is a driver of trial as a driver of discovery, the way that brands are able to tell their story online is very analogous to the on premise And in terms of scale, it's getting really close to the same size. So I think it is really important for for you to use, you know, that as a guide to what your investment in e commerce should be. Okay. But, one point about on premise is what you were talking about happens asynchronously on premise happens at the point of purchase. He's immediately before or rejection whatever it happens to be. I don't think that's ever going to go away with a food product or something that you put in your mouth. That's always gonna be the ultimate arbiter. I agree. The other point that you made I thought that was really shocking was a quote about, wine dot com and only five percent of the brands doing a good job of optimizing their presence online. Did you explain more about that? Yeah. So it might surprise you, but I have to tell a lot of companies that it is their responsibility to manage their brand's presence and the contents of their brand on retailers' websites. Right? So if we think of a total wine and more, it is your brand's responsibility to send your brand's content to total wine and more. It is your company's responsibility to send the images and descriptions to wine dot com. And so I was at a panel, with, somebody from wine dot com back in January, and, I asked them, because I was moderating, hey, you know, you guys have thousands of suppliers selling to you guys. How many of those wineries are proactively sending you content, meaning that they say, hey, I wanna make sure that the right image is there, and I wanna send you the right, you know, the the right descriptions, and I wanna make my brand come to life on wine dot com, which is place where a lot of people will discover it for the first time, and they said only five percent. One in twenty wineries are proactively sending them content. And when wine dot com reaches out, about forty five percent, then reply with something, that leaves fifty percent sending nothing and only five percent actively managing their brand online. And I'm not sure if there's if somebody at a retailer said, hey, you know, do you wanna build a display for your brands as an end cap? Do you wanna build a display for your brand in this retailer place? You never respond to that email? I mean, come on. Like, the please, please, please. This is really important, for brands to do, and they just don't do it. Yet, it's the reality. So when you say you the brand was, the phrase you used, but whose responsibility is because nobody seems to be assuming the responsibility. So it could be when you say the brand, is it the brand owner? Is it the export manager? Is it the marketing manager, especially for export brands? Is it the sales people that are in the US or the brand ambassadors? Is it is is it the importer is it the distributor all the way down the line there? And the answer is no. It's none of those. Who is? Kind of. The reality is is It's no one of those is the way I wanted to say that. So one of the challenges is that companies that are incredibly good at managing the brands online have one thing in common. They invest in people. Right? They have an eco dedicated e commerce person. They have a dedicated e commerce team. For smaller brands, that's not always an option. So you have a bunch of choices to make. Personally, I think it is the brand's responsibility, and, you know, use your existing infrastructure to make sure that information ends up in the right hands. Right? So if you're an import brand and you have a brand manager that's producing content, make sure that you know, there is somebody on your team that has that responsibility and then transfers that information to the relevant parties, you know, in the end market. I think it's also worth saying that, you know, for a single brand, one of the reasons content is so hard is that each retailer has a different set of content, different set of requirements and a different process for receiving that information. And for a single brand, it can be very difficult to learn all of those things all from scratch from nothing. Right? That's where a distributor can be really helpful. And as really important as as importers and and and distributors kind of tackle the e commerce challenge and content within that, this is a skill set that your partners need to have. And it's something that if they don't have, you need to lobby them to to get because, your distributor's going to be able to create huge efficiencies by doing this for the brands in their portfolio. And and I would really think the future is, and, major criteria for selecting a distributor is that skill set. Can you help me manage my brand in the internet? The assumption being that someone has a choice in distribution and when you're new I'm I'm thinking about new brands, and oftentimes it's whoever says yes first or whoever says yes. Yeah. But even then, the simple reality is is that as a new brand, there's an expectation that you build your brand in the like, you cannot hand your brand off to a distributor and expect them to sell it and and, you know, open up all these new accounts. You're expected to to go out and put the feed on the ground and and do the brand development and prove that you're going to back up the brand. And if you're putting all that work in and there's somebody on the ground, then make sure that person has e commerce or at least, you know, content management as part of their skill set so you can control that. And if eventually, if your brand is growing and getting some, you know, traction, you can start lobbying or pushing for, you know, your partners to to support the brand online and in store just like you'd expect them to do in in any important channel. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp. For fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond. Meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. So the point I was trying to make before, and I think we're both saying the same thing because there are so many people involved, there's nobody in in charge. And that ultimately, somebody in senior management, either has to take charge or assigned responsibility for that, and that person has to come up with a plan to pull together the resources that they need. One of the tools that has been used in the past fifteen years, twenty years has been brand ambassadors. My fundamental problem with that is they're uneconomical and they're not scalable. So Are brand ambassadors, what what older people call influencers? They were before there was an internet. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So brand ambassadors were defined as, quote unquote, feet on the street, boots on the ground, people that you employ to basically shadow what the distributor Salesforce is doing and generate sales to deliver to them, do their job for them, or that's the way it's it's it's expressed. It was never efficient. It was a new thing and it was a valuable way of differentiating yourself from other brands. Then it became everybody was doing it and therefore it had no value when you were the twelfth guy selling Scotch walking into a a bar saying I'm from such and such scotch company and I'm here to help. And how much help can they really stand? Is is the answer. So rather than that, I think what's happened is that's been supplanted by this much more efficient, scalable, cost efficient, efficient, and scalable. Call it a tool if you we want I call it optimizing your brand content online. However, it gets done. Beyond the fact of doing it once, but it's also evergreen and scrapeable. Ergo the efficiency. You can you comment on that? So very interesting. So one of the challenges of of updating content is that you know, you change your packaging, you need to update content, or you, you know, have a retailer that just has old content systems or, like, an intern entering the data and mistakes are made constantly. And so, you know, I would actually When you said Evergreen, I assume that you mean you like, there's an impression that you only have to update content once, but the reality is you need to constantly be The placeholder is there. It's up to you to make sure that it's You're right. What what ends up happening is if you don't send a retailer content, either your product doesn't have an image next to it, which means nobody will buy it because nobody knows what your product is and what they're buying. And the moment, consumer feels unsure or indecisive or confused. They stopped and they buy your competitor's brand. But, yeah, that that is that's a very good good good point there. One of the tools that people can use, I do it in my book, pages two fifty nine to two sixty three, which was basically a set of facts I put together with wine searcher saying this is the content we want. This is the format in which we want it. That can function as a template for when you assign somebody with the responsibility of optimizing content, you give them those pages and you say, do this. You address the same things in your e commerce playbook. One of the things I meant to ask when you mentioned it or when I addressed it earlier, can people get a copy of this thing? Is it readily available? Yeah. I'm a man of the people. It is free to the public because so many people in the industry contributed to it. So I probably spoke with fifty people, and they all made it possible for the report to get published. So it's public. And speaking speaking to that, about managing your brand's content online, this is actually one of those areas where I think it's really okay for you to hire a gun for the job. Right? I think it is perfectly okay for you to go out and and there As opposed to a sign from existing. Yeah. So mean, it's just kinda complicated and if you're under resourced and don't have the bandwidth to do it. Like, there are services out there, to to help brands get this off the ground. It's okay to do that. Small brands don't have the the capacity to just get things done. So there are services out there that help you with it. And I'm okay with that. Answer the argument. Somebody says, well, I'm not big enough. I can't afford somebody. Well, don't hire an FTE full time employee, go find somebody who can do this job and just this job. On a contract basis. I the issue is I think there's a lot of reasons people come up with why they don't do it and none of them are sufficient either together or on their own. It's just the entity saying, no, I don't see that as a business priority for us. And what we're saying here is it absolutely is. And, you know, the the the main reason that companies hadn't invested in e commerce in the past is they would point to the top line sales number that I would produce and go, yeah, one percent of sales. It's two percent of sales. It's three percent of sales. And then it's like, yeah, but, you know, and this is the example I got from from, a buddy of mine Wayne Duane, who's the VP of e commerce at Constellation brands. You know, they they basically said, yes. Okay. You know, three percent of your sales on, you know, total wine and more are online. It's actually a lot more than that for them, but let's just say that three percent of your sales on total wine and more is that. You know, of the ninety seven percent, like, forty percent of that is digitally influenced sales. Right? So in reality, it's much closer to, like, forty five, fifty percent of your business, a total of wine and more, is impacted by your brand's digital content, your brand's presence online. And if that's the the actual impacts, then you invest differently. And so that's always my constant reminder is the reason you aren't investing in e commerce is because you do not understand how absolutely important it is to your brand's performance online and off. Therefore, invest more than you are. And I think if you do understand that and you internalize that, hiring one full time employee is no longer, a question is how many? Yeah. So not doing it is not an option. It's kinda not just mission critical. It's we're we're all living in a world that's where the standards are defined by Amazon and, some of the big social media platforms, and we're competing in a world that we're competing in a world where they set the standards, and we have to live up to those standards to be will otherwise wear seen as inferior and they'll go someplace else to buy. Yeah. Okay. Moving the conversation a little bit further. You had said at one point that, retailers who have been the backbone of the business, and I'm differentiating this from, the supermarket side of the business, which we might get to later. Mom and pop shops. They're they're worried rightfully. I think that drizzly is taking over the relationship with consumers. In fact, it is. You quoted Mike Fish, and I interviewed his dad, Gary Fish, of Gary's wines in marketplace in New Jersey, He said it. I thought very, very eloquently. He said drizzly helps me sell bottles, but City Hive helps me build my business. City Hive is a I'll let you describe it. Yeah. I think that's really important. So drizzly is, you know, a marketplace. Right? So you shop brands and order brands, and the retailer is basically the fulfillment partner. Right? They don't really get to to be in front of the consumer at all. Whereas City Hive is basically like Shopify for alcohol retailers, which is, you know, to say that that, you know, you build your own branded website and and sell to the consumer through, you know, a product page that for all intents and purposes appears to be run by you. But in reality, the back end is completely run by by, you know, this third party city hive. And so, yeah, I I think that there is a big issue with with, companies like Trisley. They they tend to charge more for retailers and, in terms of, percentage of transactions. And the consumer buys alcohol without ever interacting with the retailer's brand. And so there's a huge incentive for, retailers to, you know, push drizzly traffic to their own website so that they can control that customer relationship. And I think people are recognizing that. Certainly, I am when I think about ordering food online, I always opt to go to the restaurant itself as opposed to Grubhub or something like that. And the same thing with tips, I'd rather give them as cash. To the delivery guy rather than included on the thing. But I don't I don't think that's that common. How do how do online sales differ from in store sales beyond what we've just been talking about? In this case, it was who owns the data of the retail or not, but from from the perspective of the consumer and where they get information and how they're confronted with information. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? So a couple of things. Online shopping is fundamentally a different consumer So so, it's important to understand that there is no online consumer. There's basically just omnichannel consumers. So even consumers that buy alcohol online, the likelihood is the vast majority of their alcohol purchases are in store. So people who shop online also shop in store, and often from the same retailer. It just so happens that the people who do shop online tend to be wealthier, that means they have a, you know, tend to demand much higher priced more premium products. So the online space tends to, you know, you would look at, craft beer selling better than domestic beer. For example, the average wine price on, you know, wine dot com is gonna be in the twenty thirty dollar range, whereas the total US, it's you know, closer to ten, eleven dollars. So you're got a more premium consumer. You know, they also tend to buy larger pack sizes. And I think that is both a function of, you know, the fact that buying online means you don't have to carry at home. Somebody else carries it for you a lot of times, but but also the fact that, richer people can buy in bulk because they have their resources to do it. And so there's a element of bulk buying in online. But Once a consumer does get to the online space, it's really important to understand that one, they're almost always gonna buy the first product that they see, not the first product, but the first few products they see, if you're on the second page of search results, something like eighty percent of consumers are never gonna are are never gonna see the second page. But even then, once consumers buy your product, they tend to keep reordering the same thing over and over again because it's a very efficient process typically. So if somebody bought your wine once, and they like it. Chances are it's gonna be right there in their basket. They're gonna go back log in, fill out their grocery order or whatever they're doing, and just click buy again. Whereas in the the in store environment, chances are they're going to get distracted by an opportunity to buy a brand on discount or there's a lot more stimulation. And so there's a lot less brand loyalty in store than there is online, which is one reason it's so important to get the first sale and be the first brand in their basket because it pays off long term in terms of lifetime customer value. So it sounds like online should be a primary strategy for export or what we would call imported brands. They're selling wine at at a higher price where the wine that is purchased is purchased at a higher price. And then there is more of an opportunity to, establish some level of repeat purchase, or you can use the word brand loyalty. And yet, most of the export producers that I talk with and work with don't get this. Don't do that. Don't recognize this. Why is that? It's the same stuff we talked about. Right? It's not understanding the the role of digitally influence sales. It's not understanding, the size of the market. Or necessarily the opportunity for your brand in in particular. Right? If you're, you know, not aware that, you know, consumers are looking for premium products in the twenty dollar, twenty five dollar price point, as the norm, then you might not recognize that that's the key opportunity for for your brand. So it's underestimating the size of the market, underestimating the, the scope of, the impact of of your brand's digital presence. Yeah. It's over and over again. I think a big part too is kind of the fundamental thing I've been wrestling with for years is that it's lack of understanding of how the US market operates. They may be able to sell to somebody in Germany and that person takes on the responsibility of marketing that brand through the supermarket or something like that. That's not the way it works here. It's not one country. It's fifty two different regulatory entities, and you can't think of the United States that way. But going forward with this, there have been a couple of, significant strides made in the way people shop for wines when I think about label recognition technology. And I've seen the dynamics of that be really, really significant. Can you talk about the significance of low label recognition technology and how it has played out for the drizzlies of the war? I'm looking at something like Vivino. Is that is that kind of what you're talking about? You know, Vivino is what I use when I go to buy wine? Why? Because there's so much stuff there. I don't know what to to pick out. So I scan until I find a wine with a high rating and a low price point, and I buy that. And oftentimes, it's okay. So, you know, that is, a digitally influenced sale to a degree. Again, people will scan your wine. They'll read about it on Vavino. And you need to make sure your content's updated on Vavino and, you know, just as, you know, and then say somebody, hey, I'm discovered your wine using the scanning technology. And now I'm gonna search for your winery into Google. Well, guess what? Chances are they're gonna end up on a retail website anyways. And so now instead of finding your website, you know, this person's shopped on drizzly historically. So they're going to the retail page on drizzly or the product page on drizzly, and that's where they learn about your brand. That's where they understand the history of your winery and your product. So, you know, oftentimes, you know, people just don't end up on your website, end up on other people's, regardless of where they started, whether that's a scanning technology or, you know, already on a retailer website. We began this conversation talking about you call mom and pop. I call independence, but what we other people call brick and mortar, retail with stores. The one piece that we haven't addressed here and and does play prominently in the, two thousand twenty or e commerce playbook twenty twenty two is grocery. And a lot of times, I find, again, for export brands that they wanna get into the grocery market. They said, yeah, I wanna sell in supermarkets in New York. Well, that's not gonna happen. Right? It is an indication that they don't know what's going on. But there's a completely different set of products that retailers are gonna carry on the grocery aisle that are already proven rather than new and to be discovered items. How do I communicate that to my clients that that that's not where you wanna be? Grocery is maybe where you end up with your entry level products. Yeah. I guess that's just a go to market strategy. And, you know, when it comes to e commerce, because I guess that's the the framework we're using, you know, there isn't basically all grocery sales are executed from online anyways from the retail shelf. Basically, they pay somebody to put product on the shelf, and then they pay somebody to take it off again and hand it to a driver to deliver it to your home. So if you don't have distribution in a grocery store, you're not gonna be able to sell through a grocery store online. I might change in the future in terms of, you know, using different fulfillment modalities, but for the most part, you know, that's not where you start in the market. Though I do think there's a really good point here, which is this concept of brands are built in the on premise. Right? And I think that's relevant here as well, which is to say that, you know, if, you know, a lot of times you're selling through smaller outlets and on premise, accounts, because that is a sell story. You are selling as much as you can through those channels and supporting your brand and showing, hey, you can perform well, you know, in on premise accounts and in all these mom at pop shops, and you are able to tell that story to your distributor and then you get the great distributor and then your fat distributor then gets excited and and then pitches it to the the the retailer. It's how you win allies is the on premise, and it's not necessarily consumer facing function, but is a trade facing one. And I guess there are similar opportunities in the online space as well. But for the most part, it's not necessarily an e commerce commentary there, but, you know, to me, the magic thing about, you know, brands are built in the on premises as an adage is just as much a a trade facing activity as a, you know, consumer facing one. So, you know Yeah. I I agree. It's kind of it it's too simple to be of any value in the world that's with such fragmented communications and sales opportunities as as we live in. Yeah. And so, yeah, that that would be, you know, basically what what you know, we're both agreeing then is that, hey, build your brands in these channels that have lower barriers entry and prove you can perform. And then you get to go and knock on the door of the big boys, but for now in you can't just skip all those those steps. But anyway, bringing this all around, I like to end my interviews with asking people what's the big takeaway? What's the practical thing that they can put to work immediately? And I think this is one of the most unique interviews I've done where we we told them what we were gonna tell them. We told them, and now you're gonna tell them again. What did we tell them? Yeah. You know, read the report, the twenty twenty, alcoholic Commerce playbook. It's going to give much more concise and direct details than than I can hear But I what I will say is, you know, I got asked, what do you want a CEO to to learn from from this research you're doing? What do you want them to feel? And first thing I I wanna make them really uncomfortable. I wanna make it super clear that, you know, not investing in e commerce is a really bad decision, but also it's something you should see coming. I spoke to the the the the top investor from wine dot com and asked them, hey, you know, you've been the main investor of wine dot com for what? Twenty years now? Like, why do you keep at it? And they said every year, I look in the calendar and I say next year, is e commerce gonna grow? And every year, the answer is yes. And so the reality is is that you can look ten, twenty, twenty five years down the road and say, yep. Ecommerce is gonna keep growing, and it's growing not only in terms of importance of of, you know, top line sales, but also in terms of brand building. So, you know, you as a brand, can't see the writing on the wall because it's obvious that e commerce is gonna keep growing. And if you don't invest now, you're gonna have to invest a lot more to catch up. So that's my message, you know, be uncomfortable and know that, you know, you if you don't do it now, it only gets worse. I would urge everyone who's listening to get a copy of, the e commerce playbook twenty twenty two because I think Burkecart does a fabulous job of articulating it all and putting it into context more than we can do in a conversation like this. If we had a couple of hours, maybe, but given the time strengths. So I wanna thank you for sharing, that knowledge, wisdom insight. And, it's not a look over the horizon people. It's where we are today. So get with the program or get out of the business. Might be that simple. So thank you, burkhart, for, for joining us today. And, I look forward to seeing you in person somewhere. We've zoomed a lot, but not, met in person. Yeah. We're we're opening back up. If you can't see it in person, You can follow me on Twitter. My handles app beverage podcast. My podcast is called liquid assets, and I work for a place called Robobank. And if you wanna find the report, it's available at research dot robobank dot com. And leave Steve a review. It helps other people discover his podcast. And I will be immediately stopping this recording, and I will be going on to Apple Podcasts, and I'm gonna leave him a little five star gift. And and I I think he deserves them. Thank you very much, Breckhardt. Well, that's it for this week. Tune in next week, and we'll have another interesting interview. Thank you. As interesting, though, more interesting than than me. Okay. Another inter okay. I didn't say that. I I didn't I I didn't say that on purpose. 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