Ep. 982 Cathy Cathy Huyghe | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong. From the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hi, and welcome to the show. This is Steve Ray. Welcome to another edition of get US market ready with Italian wine people. And this week, I'm pleased to have as my guest, Kathy Hoja, of analytics. Kathy, welcome to show. Thank you, Steven. Well done on the pronunciation of the last name. We've been working on that for a couple years now. I know. Sorry. Yeah. I might have got the pronunciation right, but I think got the spelling wrong. But anyway, Kathy, one of the reasons why I have Kathy on the show is because she's been a significant influence on me in my wine life in in the last five years or my life in wine, I should say. We met, I believe, in Italy at a, the Italy event. Both of us were speaking, I think, and we've kept in touch since, seen each other in different places around the world. You've had this incredible career where you weren't in the wine industry, then you got into the wine industry through Forbes, and now you've got this fabulous company called analytics, which is doing some really cutting edge stuff. So I I one last point about you you're writing for Forbes, which has been this ongoing thing. I found you'd have this very unique style of calm, simple, practical, and relevant, and more particularly clear. I think you speak the same way too. So Here's your opening. Speak clearly to us and tell us a little bit about you and how you got into the wine business. Thank you very much, Steve. Forbes really was, the, the entry point in a lot of ways, because I write about the business and the politics of the wine industry. And to your point, I I do write about it, try to write about it in an unorthodox way. Erica Crawford, from, from New Zealand and South Africa described it as, an issues writer. I just happen to write about the wine world. And so I'm interested in things like like labor and immigration. I'm interested in in health care for vineyard workers, things like that. And so that that is sort of the the approach that I try to take as opposed to other writers who focus on tasting no things like that. I appreciate that somebody could do that. It's just not my not my way of thinking. So writing that way has been a fantastic entry point into the world of wine, literally taking me around the world. And it was, as I was writing for Forbes about six years ago, that the idea for analytics came to mind, analytics, so the email, of course, is the wine, and the analytics, of course, is the analytics. And I I recognized because I was writing about business and technology, and that mine. That was my swim lane, so to speak. Recognized that there was an awful lot of data in the in the wine and spirits industry, but maybe not as much analysis or business intelligence, being applied to that data. Especially not for, not for medium or small sized wineries. So that was initially sort of the the the void that we were hoping to fill. And I mean, that's extensive not only in the US market, and it's a function not only of the size of the winery. But also the, availability of the data, the currency of the data, and I guess the accuracy of the data as well. So tell us what analytics is is all about. When you started, I remember seeing a couple of remember you're presenting a you did a project with, Frresca Baldi and you were showing some heat maps. And I thought that was really interesting. And you've kinda taken a couple of orders of magnitude forward. So kinda leap forward five years. Yeah. I I remember that presentation, Steve. So our very first, data partner, when analytics launched was Vivino. The YNAP, if you could, if It's been downloaded sixty million times, something like this all around the world. So Vivina was incredible for, for a company who was starting out in the in the data space for wine. They were incredible partners in the sense that, like, with Frisco Baldi, for example, Fresco Baldi wanted to get a read on consumer sentiment about their wine. So that is the kind of data that Vivino has in spades. And so we would we would write a query according to what the client wanted, you know, Frasco Baldi, interested in red wine consumption and how consumers were talking about it, literally writing taste notes, where they were physically located, because every data record that we received from Pravino had a latitude and a longitude attached to it because it was it's mostly a mobile device, a mobile app, and that latitude and longitude was accurate to within a hundred feet. And so that could really help us, communicate to feasibility, to volunteer champagne, you know, where was literally, where were their fish? Where were their fish that they wanted to to catch? Where was the the interest? Among the consumers, throughout not only the United States, but throughout the world. It's it's fascinating. So that was how that was sort of our first engagement. And you're right, since then, for several reasons, we have expanded outward. We now are two main, SaaS products, software as a service products focused on DTC, all of the channels of DTC, as well as depletion data. So those are the two products that we have right now that the company has evolved into creating and developing. And, and that's the space that we live in at the moment. DTC, there's a lot of confusion in the world. In fact, one of the presentations I made at mind to mind back in October was, clarification and kind of an organization of how to think about, what the definitions of ecomm and DTC and third party facilitators and all those kinds of things. When you say DTC, I I think you're principally talking about domestic wineries selling direct to consumers being delivered by common carriers. And there's a wealth of information and all the stuff that you did. You just did this seminar that I thought was fascinating. We'll talk about some of those conclusions in a little bit. But for many of the people who I deal with and you deal with as well, who are exporting brands imported into the United States, that door is not open to them. So how does what are the values of, potential values of analytics for export brands These are the domestic. Yeah. So, and, again, to to to clarify, Steve, it it there is a lot of confusion around around language, right, the language of of data. The language of of DTC even. So DTC, of course, is direct to consumer. But by that, do you mean e commerce? Is it the same thing as e commerce? Is it something else? Something different. When we use the term DTC or direct to consumer, we're talking about all of the channels the online channels through which wine is sold. So specifically, website, tasting room, wine club, point of sale, which is typically the tasting room, telemarketing sales made, through through phone sales, whether that's actually calling people or through text messages, which is an increasing, opportunity for for DTC. Those are all of the all of those channels fall, from our purview under the umbrella of DTC. So so yeah. So and and you're right. I think that the the brands who are being imported into into the United States, and the the data that we work with is in the US and also Canada and Australia. So those brands though are operating within their own countries. We're not typically looking working with binaries or suppliers who are international, for various reasons that you know better than than anybody. I think that the data that we do have that is useful or can be useful for international brands trying to get sort of a read on the market is, of course, this, this two hundred million data set that the analytics wrote, coauthored, with WindDirect just earlier, and that was released, a couple weeks ago in March of twenty twenty two. And this two hundred million record data set includes transactions, a hundred and sixty five or so million transactions through any DTC channel. Going back the past five years, so back to twenty seventeen and involving about twenty six million, customers. So it's really transactional. It's at the big data level. It's at the level of quantitative data, quantitative analysis, And, and interestingly, it offers a a different perspective to qualitative analysis, which is a lot of how research within the wine industry has been done for a long time. And there is a lot of value to it for the record. There's a lot of value to it. It's also sort of the other side of the coin. It's what we're trying to say is that there's qualitative and there's also quantitative data that can be analyzed and interpreted, for for different value purposes. So you produced a report, which I thought was brilliant. And I thought the the webinar that you did as well. If people wanted to get the report, where can they go to access that? Absolutely. Andrea Smalling, who is the chief marketing officer for wine direct, and I co presented, when we released this report. And thank you for watching. It was it's been very well received. If you go to wine direct dot com, you'll be able to find, find the link to receive their to just download the report. It's it's really easy, and that's the easiest way to to do it. There are links to it, of course, through analytics dot com as well. But, typically, it it lives, on the Wind Direct website. So, we don't have time here to go through the whole report, but there were a couple of big things that popped out. And it was as you guys were speaking that it kind of became clear to me where the value is as far and above, do I sell more Chardonnay or Gabernet sauvignon through this to, you know, left hand people with the households in the globe, whatever. It's it's far beyond that, and it's it's much more useful. So can you give us kind of, top line conclusions of what you guys found in terms of behavior? I think that's the big news for the people listening here. Yeah. The the behavior and really this actually answers your previous questions, Steve, the behavior of US consumers, I think, is the big takeaway and the big value to, to international brands, even when they're not they're not available, through any DTC channel. So for example, there are forty different levers that we could turn on or off about this dataset So for example, we, we enhanced the data in a couple different ways. One of the levers is is gender. We run an algorithm based on first name that identifies whether that person is likely to be male or female. So for example, Steve would register as male, Kathy would register as female, a name like Chris would register as androgynous or unknown. So if a brand wanted to get a read on female consumers or male consumers throughout the United States, we could turn on that lever and create that report. If a brand wanted to get a read on an on any of those other forty dimensions that are built into the infrastructure of the report. We could do that too. So, for example, if you wanted to get a read on male consumers who are gen z who live in Brooklyn, and who buy red wine. That's that's valuable. It's valuable information. And yes, they're they're consumers who have bought DTC, but if I were a brand and wanting to know that and I'm I'm a PNO noir producer, for example, and maybe Brooklyn is my target market, or I have I can I come for sale in Brooklyn? My minds are for sale in Brooklyn. I'd wanna know a lot about those demographics. You know, who who are they? If I can interrupt, it's more than demographics, and I think that's where the power is, you know, in in the old world that I came from, demographics were were was a very blunt instrument we used to identify and, segment and sometimes aggregate audiences, but it was not a very good predictor of future behavior. The level of granularity of the data that you you get, the timeliness of the data and the ability to manipulate the data to ask certain questions So rather than getting a Nielsen report dumped in your lap, and yeah, you can do this with Nielsen too. But through this, you can ask questions that are specific to the issues related to your business that will give you practical insights that you can then as a export supplier, for example, share with your importer, share with your distributor to help fine tune where you go to market, how you go to market, how you price, who your target audience is, how to communicate to people, what channels and all those kinds of things. So I think it's a lot more than just I I I really don't like the word demographic because people tend to think of age, household income, male, female, those kinds of things. And and they've they're they're not indicative at at all of future activity where this kind of analytics analytics, does give you some insights on behavior. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that, Steve. The the demographics are are valuable and marketing people, definitely kinda take the ball and run with it. Once they once they see that information, and who who know what to do with it, but there is a lot a lot of other information available. For example, average order value, literally how much, how much is is your target demographic willing to spend for a bottle of wine. That they that they're gonna buy online. Things like that, things like Well, I can see using that in in a discussion with the importer and distributor when you're planning a US market rather than saying, I think it should be x y z. Here's what's going on in that, price map. Absolutely. And so and then there what's exciting, Steve, are all the other things that can that can feed into that that piece of information. For example, if If you're a brand and you you you've identified certain, certain places and that you that seem ripe or ready to, to be interested in your wine, then you can look at look at a map of that ZIP code, for example, and say who are the retailers or who are the restaurants that are within that zip code where I know there's interest in my kind of wine. I think that that crossover taking that crossover receipt from the GTC information that we have and applying it to to the three tier space or to the the whole center space. I think that is really valuable and potentially, you know, the the game changer that we're talking about. So there's two points I I would comment on that. One is that I I've I've said, hey, where people like you are are taking the industry dragging and kicking and screaming into two thousand watts. Right? I mean, this is frankly basic stuff in many men, many other categories. And as consumers, the standard of excellence is Amazon and the like and not clunky, you know, homemade websites. Not I'm not trying to criticize everybody's, but I mean, it's it's a different standard. And the industry has to recognize that we are competing with consumers that are very sophisticated. That e commerce is not something that's coming down the pike. I talked with burkhart Nessin of Rabbabank the other day. We'll be airing his thing. And, you know, e commerce is probably gonna be twelve to twenty percent. In the next couple of years, and probably more. In fact, he makes a point that there is going to come a point where e commerce is going to exceed traditional retail. And that's not in the far distant future. So this kind use of this kind of data, frankly, is not an option. And so they and part of that too, Steve, is that consumers know what's possible. They they know what's possible in, Amazon, you know, we all shop Amazon with certain one way or another, most likely. And so we know how it how easy it could be. And so why why wouldn't those consumers expect a similar a similar opportunity or to be treated in a similar way or to have similar options as as as they do for Amazon? You know, if Amazon's doing it, you know, for better or for worse, it's set a bar. It's set a bar for for what, for what the wine industry and the spirits industry needs to adapt to. And I think that it's certainly possible. There's no there's no reason why why we why we couldn't. And I I love and, you know, this is exactly what what we are doing. We're making that possible, for for wineries to access. Thank you for listening to Italian wine podcast. We know there are many of you listening out there, so we just want to interrupt for a small ask. Italian wine podcast is in the running for an award, the best podcast listening platform. Through the podcast awards, the people's choice. Lister nominations is from July first to the thirty first, and we would really appreciate your vote. We are hoping our listeners will come through for us. So if you have a second and could do this small thing for us, just head to Italian wine podcast dot com from July first to the thirty first and click the link. We thank you and back to the show. So let's cut to the chase and and talk about how can analytics, and and and you just gave kind of top line findings of stuff I think that you thought would be interesting to a whole lot of people. Within that, you can go and spend days digging into that data, asking questions and not necessarily going down rabbit holes, but actually pursuing, marketing insights. You know, the whole thing about data into information information into insight and insight into action. So how can analytics and some of the findings that you highlighted from the report benefit? Let's let's take it in in different order. Start with the consortium and other promotional entities that aren't necessarily promoting an individual line or a particular sale or channel of sale. Yeah. So I I mentioned the marketers. They have, we've been in touch with, with marketing agencies who work with the the consortio different consortia around around Italy, certainly, and around the world who, for example, are they want to, let's say, a sparkling wine, a sparkling wine brand or a sparkling wine region. There's a sparkling wine, wine type within the DTC dataset that we have. And so we could carve out that slice, the sparkling wine slice of the data that could be useful to a consortium whose interest is in sparkling wine. There is, of course, red wine at a certain price point, white wine at another price point. We could carve out those pieces of it as well. And so what we're finding is that consorts you in particular and marketing agencies who service them definitely want to have a more data informed program. They want to make smart decisions, smart use of money, and this level of granularity enables them and empowers them to do that in a way that, that hasn't really been proactively sought, before. So I think that's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, having owned a couple of agencies and done this. I mean, I see the potential here for the agency to add, and don't call me to do this for you, please, but to add strict I don't do it anymore. Strategic value to the services that they provide. So instead, in addition to just good creative or having a good trade media list and those kinds of things, you're communicating what's important to a specific audience within formed data and the timeliness of it. So instead of, like, waiting for, every six months, you know, presentation at W SWA or something like that, you can have this information at your fingertips and ask and answer questions. And I I think it's the kind of thing I've always found that whenever I can do that and go dig into the data and and ask questions, it's amazing what you find when you don't know what you're looking for. It sounds kind of like a waste of time, but it's actually just the opposite. And you can see two or three disparate data points and all of a sudden it clicks in your head saying, oh my god. What if I did x y z because of ABC? Absolutely. And so the to your point, Steve, about the timeliness of this, the data will be for this dataset will be refreshed every quarter. So, you know, it's early in April, and we've just received sort of q one, data from Wind Direct that and so the data will be refreshed on on a on a regular basis. So that information will be will be current, and it will be relevant. And it will be, you know, ready, ready to be accessed. But I also think that to your point around looking and seeing three different data points, for example, it takes it takes a knowledgeable person to recognize the pattern. Right? And so I feel like that is the that's where the creativity comes in. That's also where the experience comes in. And it's also where you I mean, yes, we can we can give you all kinds of insights. And then, but, of course, the real the real need and the real value from there becomes what are you gonna do with it? And that's the value of of partners, agencies, marketing people, etcetera. And that that's the big thing right there. I mean, agencies, if you're listening to this and you wanna provide value to help them sell more wine to more people in more places for more money. This is one way to do it. Changing course a little bit. We're recording this just before the Italy, which takes place in April. You're coming to the Italy. I think you said you're going to provine as well. Trade shows have really kinda been a challenge, and we haven't had any for a couple of years. Now everybody's getting back. We still have to wear masks there. What do you hope to accomplish at Vin Italy in particular? Yeah. There's well, certainly, the the appeal of attending Vinitally when it's live again this year, it's kind of as irresistible because it's it's one of my favorite my favorite shows to do. It's just an annual tradition. It's an annual ritual. So, frankly, Steve, and maybe you're feeling this as well. I I wanna be there. Wanna be there. I've committed to being there, and I think that there's a lot of opportunities to to just be there in person to get a read on what's going on. How are people feeling? What are what are people feeling about, taking the temperature, taking their temperature about the future. So I've got I've got my eyes open to a lot of different things. Certainly, from my from my role with Forbes, one of the things that I've written about recently is the impact and the case study that I did really about the impact of the situation in in Ukraine and how Italy and Verona and the Veneto specifically are replying to our responding to that to that crisis. So That's one of the things that I've got my eye on from a business perspective, from analytics specifically perspective. Definitely different, conversations on the, you know, on the schedule, to talk about certainly this DTC report, to talk about other things that are happening, around data in the US, talking about data literacy, talking about consumer trends that we're seeing, talking about the what's the the predictive analytics that's built in, to our work as well, being able to identify things coming coming on the pipe. So you've had the experience of working for a couple of Italian wineries. Can you comment on the different levels of sophistication or recognition of the potential value for farmers in Italy versus farmers in America. You know, wine producers that may be, you know, doing they talk in bottles, you know, a hundred thousand fifty or a hundred thousand bottles or three hundred thousand. And a lot of your clients are only doing, you know, five thousand cases. So Yeah. Seventy thousand bottles, something like that. Relatively small. Compare and contrast. Domestic versus import. Yeah. It's well, it and and it's really it's really exciting because, with the with the wineries, especially in the US, or in Canada or Australia, we can work with them one on one, the sort of the bandwidth of the software that I mentioned at the at the top of this conversation, Steve, that the ideal customer is is a winery. The ideal customer specifically for that for that software platform is a winery who is willing to go down the path of working with data. And, and that's incredible. And that's a that's a one by one sort of one on one. Sometimes that's a big mountain to climb, though. Isn't it? It is, and I and I love it, Steve, because some of our best users, our top users, are coming from places you completely would not expect. And the the differentiator is that they've committed to it. They've committed to saying, like, look, I don't necessarily get data. I'm a wide person. I'm not an analyst, but I know that this is important. So I want to learn. And they are they're the they're my favorite people because they and I I would talk to them, you know, all day long if I could because they they care enough about the future of what they're doing in order so that they'll take the time to really jump in the deep end when it comes to data. And I'm I'm gonna jump in writing there with them. Good. So the the I see hesitancy on the part of a lot of people. Oh, I don't really understand e commerce, so I'm not gonna touch it all. I don't understand big data. You noted in our pre interview to prep for this recording. You said we're not asking people to understand how machine learning works. We need people and clients to engage in the conversation. Can you explain that? Absolutely. So, it's not that what I'm I'm I'm a blind person. I'm not a machine learning specialist. I'm not even a developer or a programmer or a coder. I'm a blind person, but there is a lot of sophisticated technology going on in the background. I I don't know that either. I don't understand that either. I do understand, however, what it could do. I do understand the potential. And that's that's what I'm interested in. And I think that that's what our clients are interested in as well. But please don't tell me I need to un I need to know what a triple smoothing algorithm is. No. You don't. But but you do you will benefit from knowing that that triple smoothing algorithm is going to forecast demand in your tasting room for the coming six months. That's what that's what that does. So our focus is on letting wineries know that their their their benefit and their potential and their action points are in what the technology can do, not how the technology needs to work. We'll we got we'll take care of that part. One of the questions I get asked a lot from export well, anyone, export as well as domestic is how can I get more attention from my importer or distributor or retailer or or Salesforce or whatever it happens to be when it's a shared organization that you don't own completely? Another way of saying that is how can I compete with the big boys who have access to all these tools? And what I think is data is the great equalizer that it doesn't matter how big you are or how much money you spend. It's how well you're using the assets that you have access to. And this is a case for saying these things can or really basically can be sitting in your lap. It's up to you to decide whether or not to use it. So if you're looking for a winery or an importer or a distributor or particularly an importer or distributor, this is an opportunity to get a disproportionate amount of time and attention from the next tier down in the three tier system and bring significant value to the the whole conversation within the three tier system. That's not just please buy more of this product or product x. It's how can we help everybody in the ecosystem do better as I said before, you know, and make more margin. Because at the end of the day, everybody's getting stressed on that. Costs are going up. You know, the cost of shipping has gone up like triple, which is amazing. I was just doing a price structure with somebody and the cost of shipping exceeded the cost of the the actual bottle of the product. That's reality, though. So it's a world that we live in, how how are we gonna deal with it? And one of the answers is data. Actually, it it's a great chance to, to mention, the earliest user of our depletion software. So the earliest user of our depletion sufferer, and we had no we did not know we were gonna go and develop depletion software. We were really focused on DTC. Really hyper focused on DTC. So you have two services that you're talking about. One is DTC. The other is depletion team. Right. Right? And and to your questions, Steve, about, how do you how do you respond to either suppliers or importers or distributors? So one of the ways and let me just sort of tell a very brief story about, It was, the guy's name is Jake Lustig, and there's a case study about him on the analytics website, the analytics one zero one website. You can find it. You can easily find it. But Jake literally said, okay, analytics. I see what you're doing in terms of DTC for wineries over here, could you also create something for the spirits companies over here, to deal with depletion data? And we kinda went, hadn't thought of that, but let's have a look. And it turns out that depletion data is actually a lot there's an awful lot fewer fields in depletion data than there are in DGC data. So it turns out that, you know, the answer is yes. We could build something and and we did. And the way that Jake uses it or the way that he sees it is as empowering. It empowers him with more information presented in a visually appealing way so that when he walks into the conversation with the distributor, he's got he's he he's got a different angle. He's got a different perspective. On what's happening in his business. So I think that and then to to take it a step further, then really smart distributors are saying, okay. So how could this software help us How could I how could this offer help every one of my brands or every one of my suppliers? So I think that that's a really interesting thing that is, you know, potentially can really can really take off. As I said, most of our focus, especially these past two years, going through COVID and coming out of COVID has been on DTC. And we didn't we hadn't planned to do a depletion product, but there was there was enough demand for that as well. Cool. That gives us a lot to talk about in Italy next week. One last One last thing I wanna pick your brains. One one last thing that'd be remiss if I didn't talk about, you've been very active with Beck Hopkins on health and wellness issues. Can you give us a a brief summary of that? Absolutely. Thanks for asking, Steve. So Rebecca Hopkins back in twenty eight team founded a platform called a balanced glass. And a balanced glass, the reason she did it was that nobody was talking about alcohol as as potentially damaging and harmful, especially to the industry. In terms of a personal level, in terms of relationships, and sort of the the the negative part of of alcohol. So, Beck wanted to to create a platform and a community where we could talk about it freely and with candor and openly, about different things, and it is expanded to be definitely, a wellness oriented community when alcohol is at the center of our work. It's not that alcohol is bad, and certainly, none of us wants to say that, but out there are there are dangers associated with it. It could be abused. And so what what we've so Beck asked me to co create the content with her for a balanced class which I've been doing since the beginning, and it's been, I joke Steve that it's outed me as a spiritual person in the wide world. Gotcha to you. Okay. That's so it's a balanced class dot com? Exactly. Is that the same? Exactly. Okay. We've covered a lot of ground and not nearly enough from my perspective. There's a lot more there. But I like to ask my interview subjects for what's the big takeaway? As a writer, you'll appreciate this. It was an editor of mine used to say, we do wrench stories. And I said, what do you mean? He says, well, somebody could read the article and go out and fix the tractor. This was in the agricultural world. Right? So meaning useful practical information. What's the big takeaway here from what we've talked about? Yeah. I think my initial my initial thought, Steve, has always been about, don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid of data. It's there. It's happening. It's our reality now. As I said, you don't have to know how the machine learning works. But you you do need to know that it's happening. And there's so much benefit. There's so much benefit from to to wineries, to consortium, to marketing agencies who can really ultimately service the customer better. The wine consumer can be better served through the use of data. Thanks. And that's the I think the the answer to, why don't I get more time and attention from my importers and distributors? Cause you're not bringing on something of value. All you're doing is bringing an ask. You bring something of value that gives them insight that they can apply to the the rest of their business. Now the sudden you're a strategic partner, you're not just a supplier, and that's a fundamental difference. So if you wanna be a better competitor in the US market, get with the program people. This is not as I said, it's not an option. It's the way everybody is doing marketing in every other category, and we're, you know, slowly, getting there with wine. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, Kathy, you wanna share your contact information with us and social handles? Absolutely. So, it's just Kathy with the c, c a t h y. At enolytics, e n o l y t I c s dot com, or also my my cell number. You can easily WhatsApp me or or text me or whatever, is seven zero two five two eight three seven one seven. The easiest, thing to do is look for us on LinkedIn and the business page for analytics as well as my personal page. I also have a, the analytics website is analytics dot com. And my personal website is kathy hoyo dot com. Thank you, Kathy, for for joining us. Always always fun to to talk with you. It was always a challenge. And, I wanna say thank you to our listeners and and check back next week. We'll have another interesting conversation on get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. Until next week, this is Steve Ray. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast brought to you by Vineetli Academy. Home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at benito international dot com for courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. 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