Ep. 992 Katherine Cole | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong. From the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding force? Do you want to be the next Italian wine ambassador? Learn more and apply now at vunitly International dot com. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hi. This is Steve Ray, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. This week, I'm pleased to have as a guest Catherine Cole, who is a whole bunch of things. She's an author, but she's also a podcaster, and we're gonna focus our conversation this week more on the podcasting aspects of what she do and see if we can learn some lessons, for the Italian wine podcast well. So, Catherine, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Steve. Can you give us a little background on on you and how how you got here? And then we'll talk a little bit more about what we're gonna talk about. Sure. I call myself a recovering wine journalist. I I hope that doesn't offend anyone. It it is sort of a compulsion wine journalism. It's if you if you love writing, it is it's a fun career, but I could not afford to stay in it. I have a I'm a single mom with two kids headed to college. So my bio, I went to the Columbia University graduate school of journalism after college and became a magazine editor. And then when I moved, I was living in Chicago. When I moved to Portland from Chicago, I started freelancing, got some beverage columns and magazines, somehow managed to get the wine column in the Oregon did that for thirteen years, wrote five books on wine somewhere in there. But today, I really focus on my podcast, which you mentioned, the four top and I'm the executive producer, the founder, and the host. And I also my day job is as the communications director at VIN Agency, which is a creative agency for fine wineries. I also still do plenty of moderating and teaching as well. So the day job of of VIN agency is, developing websites and optimizing them for fine line clients. Yeah. I'm on the communication side. So I do brand strategy, that kind of thing. A lot of communications, a lot of copywriting. Really just, it's I'm using the same skills I used previously as a wine journalist, just speaking to winemakers and winery owners and pulling out their unique stories and weaving these narratives that that really allow them to create a a personal relationship with the customer just through that online space. Let me jump on that because that's a big issue. I'm just back from Italy a couple of weeks ago, and we met with a couple of wineries. We were trying to explain what we mean by storytelling. And it's not, you know, my grandfather, moved from Nick agriculture in the nineteen fifties after the war focused on wine and we put it in vines and all that. Those those are not the stories that resonate with people. It seems like at least a lot of the smaller producers that we work with who by definition really farmers don't have the ability to identify or extract and articulate their story that would resonate with our consumers here in the United States. How do you do that? And how do you pull that out of people? Yeah. And that's where I really use my journalistic skills to do a lot of just deep digging. And sometimes it's a matter of doing a kind of a background check on the person because often, you know, if you're in a milieu, you don't realize what makes you different from those around you. So it's often a matter of me getting in there and digging and digging and doing research and and finding something out about them and then pulling that thread. For example, I recently had a client in Priorat in Spain who who his, you know, he came to me, said, I there's nothing special about me. There's nothing special about what I'm doing. How do I get my wines into the US market? I don't really have a story. I need a story. And he thought I was gonna come up with a story for him. I couldn't make it up, right, and a whole cloth? I mean, I I didn't have to. He was fascinating. He was absolutely fascinating. He had grown up in the coffee industry, his on a coffee farm in Guatemala, and this is steep high elevation, you know, hand harvested. It's very similar to the wine industry. And he this is what he grew up doing, and he thought it was boring. And I thought, oh, my god. This is fascinating. This directly translates to wine. I mean, it makes perfect sense that you're in prior art, you know, battling the elements and and farming grapes, old fine grapes. This this is perfect. And then, you know, we started talking more. And it it as you start to speak to a client or or as a journalist, as you start to speak to a subject, you quickly find that, you know, everyone has something really interesting and different about them, and it's just a matter of pulling that thread. I really like that. And I think, you know, I get asked a lot, but can you help me with that? And my answer usually is no. Because I don't I don't wanna work that hard anymore. But, I think a a good point of guidance for people is find somebody that you know that's a journalist or has journalism background and ask them to interview you. And through that process and doing the background research as as you said, you find these little pearls and then there's like thread you can follow and, discover and articulate something a point of difference, as I like to say, that makes a difference to the audience to we're speaking. It's almost like detective work, and I don't mean to be creepy, but sometimes I will just spend a lot of time looking at a client's social media feed, and, you know, I'll see something in the background. Like, what is that? What is that in the background? Oh, you have llamas or what, you know, whatever it is. And they're like, that's how did you even know that? It's like, well, I just I pay really close attention because I that's what I was trained to do. Yeah. So that's that's really a a great piece of advice. And I imagine there are a lot of recovering journal wine journalist sound. Yes. We're we're all I think we're all in a bucket together. It's a hard habit to break. That'd make a good title for a song. Okay. So after an initial career working on print, you're you're now doing a podcast for top. Tell us a little bit about it. How it evolved from the Oregon Public broadcast project that you are working with. By the way, I do wanna share the point that for that work, you got a James Beard award and an IACP, which is the international association of culinary professionals, not the international association police chief. Yes. Google search. So give us some background on a four top. Why, when, how? Yeah. I've always been an audio file in terms of how I get my information and my news. I've, you know, I loved public radio as a kid. And as soon as podcasts became a thing, I quickly became addicted. And so I just I knew I wanted to get into the space, and I would say for anyone who wants to get into it, you really do have to approach it as a passion as, you know, something that you love to do because it really it it isn't necessarily going to pay off. But so I first started pitching this podcast. I wanna say in two thousand twelve, I was working with a with a network called PAGateem that was a little bit ahead of its time. It was a digital audio network and So you were country before country was cool. Well, I actually I I start I started this concept. It was called Sipping stories at the time. And I think Levy Dalton was starting up his podcast, I'll drink to that around the same time. And I remember I gave him a call, and I was like, oh, I just wanted to let you know. I I'm, you know, don't wanna compete with you. I think what you're doing is great, but I'm also starting this other thing. And but anyway, he has done an amazing job and has really kind of filled a need with his long form interviews. And the Pega team project did not work out, which was fine. That, sadly, that digital audio company went under because like I said, it was ahead of its time. And then I proposed to the Oregonian, my employer at the time, we had a a fantastic food and beverage magazine called Mix. And so we were talking about doing a food and beverage podcast. And the word came down from on high that they were not going to invest in any alternate media. No new projects, just newspapers. Just paper. Just print and so. That's forward thinking. Yeah? Okay. Looking back, I'm thinking, you know, guys, it might have been a good idea, but but anyway, I just I happen to know someone who was on the board of Oregon Public Broadcast testing. And she actually I think she said to me, you know, we need a food and beverage podcast. And I said, that's funny because I've been trying to get this thing launched. So OPP became the presenting, entity for what eventually was called the four top. And working with the Oregon and OPP, I I couldn't make it just wine because that was, you know, too specific at the time when people didn't even know what podcasts were. So we started out as a food and beverage podcast and we continued as one for about five years, just covering what we call the the hot button topics in food and beverage culture. Thank you for listening to Italian wine podcast. We know there are many of you listening out there, so we just want to interrupt for a small ask. Italian wine podcast is in the running for an award, the best podcast listening platform through the podcast awards. The people's choice. Lister nominations is from July first to the thirty first, and we would really appreciate your vote. We are hoping our listeners will come through for us. So if you have a second and could do this small thing for us. Just head to Italian wine podcast dot com from July first to the thirty first and click the link. We thank you and back to the show. Okay. And tell me a little bit about, you know, you you've evolved it and certainly podcasting has evolved. How have you evolved in what kind of input or or was it guessing on some of the things you did in terms of, you know, how long the podcast is, what the format is, how many people you interview, how that all takes place? I I didn't go about it in a rational mathematical way. I didn't have stats. Like you were saying earlier, Steve, I didn't have any stats to look at, to compare. So I just kind of went with my gut, but I am, as I mentioned, a big fan of podcasts, and the news podcasts that I religiously listen to are those that are the roundtable discussion format. And to me, it's it's more engaging hearing a a number of different voices with slightly different perspectives and different, you know, different experiences. And there's also something about the texture of hearing different voices. I think for a one on one interview, probably thirty minutes is a really good length. Is that what yours is? I think after You know, how you know, with fine dining, they say, you know, after the second or third bite, your your taste buds sort of stop discerning all the nuances of flavor. I didn't know that. Okay. Great. Nice to know. And that's why chefs love to serve, like, tiny tiny little plates, that kind of thing. I I think it's I think it's a little bit true with with audio as well that after about thirty minutes, if you're only hearing two voices, your brain starts to kind of zone out. I mean, we all remember the, you know, falling asleep in the college lecture when we were young because just hearing that same voice droning on and on. So so, yeah, I I I was I've been a fan of roundtable discussions, you know, since they first came out in the podcast form. I'm there. NPR has a few news podcasts that worked that way. Slate very early on had the political gap fest and the culture gap fest, which I loved. And then now currently crooked media has does a great job with roundtable discussions. And so that's where I get my news. I love it, and I can stay engaged for an hour. So just hearing those four different voices, you know, it's some male voices, some female voices, high tom high timbers, low timbers, and then just hearing them interact with each other and have a really fun engaging conversation that keeps you focused. So you can go to an hour for with that, I believe. Okay. I I've been listening to a bunch of them in preparation for this, and and what I realized is it's kinda like the conversations we have at the end of, like, Van Italy or provine or something. You're still very much talking about business, are a lot more relaxed. So you're all sitting having glasses of wine, an Aperol spritz in Italy or, something else in Germany. But it's almost like you're sitting in a conversation of peers and listening into what they have to say, and it's all very fascinating. I think for people in the industry, it's fascinating for people who are not. Well, I don't know why they would listen, certainly, certainly to me. I'm so glad you got that impression because, obviously, the four top is a table for four in a restaurant, and that was the the sort of the the feeling we were going for. And I do hope that we still have listeners. I know I know when we were a food and beverage podcast, we definitely had listeners who were just learning. I do hope we still do, and we do make an effort to stop ourselves anytime we use a term that is kind of an insider industry term, we stop and say. Mhmm. Okay. And let's define that term. It is blah blah blah. Yeah. We so we hope to be a podcast that people can join at any level of of knowledge. One of the other things you mentioned when we talked four, I thought was kind of interesting was the difference between audio and video. I've never worked in in video per se or doing podcast like thing in the video format. But, you know, we always used to say that radio was the theater of the mind. Podcast is equivalent to radio here. It's not broadcast per se. It's stream, but it's effectively the same thing. You've done some video too. Could you tell us a little bit about the difference between the two and why you're defaulting back to audio only? I'm sure I'm woefully behind the curve in just doing a podcast, but I it that's really the medium that I use and listen to. So I don't know that I would have the expertise with video to be able to determine what would be effective. And also, you know, I've got a a really solid audio team, and we can knock out episodes, but a lot of work goes into each episode. I cannot imagine if we were also editing video, it would just be so much. And then, you know, getting all the different shots. I so, you know, I to me, they're they're love to do video someday, but I cannot be the executive producer because that's not something I have the skill set to manage. Yeah. That's an interesting thing on the Italian wine podcast. We have a team in in verona that does, the engineering and editing and posting and social media. I couldn't do it on my own, but I do know that I spend about ten hours per week in preparing for and soliciting interviewees and all that kind of stuff, which is which is a lot of time. How much time do you spend on this, do you think? And, here's the hard question. What's the payback? During the season, I probably spend ten hours a week. I do have a team to support my work, but I I I still have to listen for edits. I still have to write a script. I still have to send out a prep email. It it takes time, and also meet with my team about social media and all the other little things we need to take care of. During the off season, it's fewer hours per week, which is perfect. I mean, I don't know that I could do the podcast year round because I just have too many too many responsibilities, too many things pulling on my time. So I'm able to to fit in a couple seasons a year. Wow. I need to talk to Stevie about cutting it back because we're all fifty two weeks a year. Well, I'm sure we would have more listeners if we were year round, but the amount of planning I mean, we really put a lot of work into each episode, planning, coming up with you know, these aren't interviews. We're not interviewing people about their own experience. We're coming we're coming up with timely topics that we choose our guests specifically because they will have a nuanced perspective on it, and we hope an unbiased perspective on it. And, you know, it's it's a lot of learning for each episode. So Yeah. It's opinions and point of view, and I think that's the most intriguing thing. Well, you come in commented to me once that one of the differences, you saw between podcasts and hard news, is that listeners get to know you as a person Mhmm. That the podcast host is more like a personal friend. I I was at Van Italy a couple of weeks ago, and I was wearing a little sticker that said Italian wine podcast. And I had a whole bunch of people come up to me and say, oh, thank you very much. I listened to you. All the time. And I had no idea who these people are, but, you know, right, we have a relationship. Yeah. Only it's, you know, a very kind of, it's a asynchronous, certainly in time, and certainly in in geography. What kind of feedback are you getting on your podcast? Yeah. I mean, that's really it's interesting because it's kind of uncomfortable to be in the position of host and realize that you do have to share a little bit of yourself, but I do know as a podcast listener that I love I I love checking in with those hosts every week and hearing a little something about the host dog or baby or, like, you know, what they did with their spouse over the weekend. And it it just it's mentioned in passing, but it's it makes you feel like you have a personal relationship with this voice that is, you know, if you're wearing earbuds in your brain every week, and that you you you go back to every week and check-in with. And it is it is a little awkward as a host because why do I podcast? It's because I have a compulsion to communicate. It's not that I have a compulsion to get my voice in other people's ears. I don't think I sound that great. I'm I'm not I'm really that compelling of a speaker, I just, you know, was born to communicate. That's that's what I do. But I have had feedback. You know, I there was one episode last season where I think the the subject matter was burnout in the wine industry and mental health one industry and, you know, kind of all the pressures that we have. And I shared a little something about my personal life where, you know, someone in my life had been four years and continues to claim that I don't have a real job. I have an imaginary job and how that kind of, you know, that can be really harmful if you're trying to get on with your life and people, you know, I I think a lot of Dismit it or discarded Yeah. Yeah. And I I think a lot of people in the wine industry, you know, I I work in a restaurant. I serve people wine, and I'm sure we all have family members who are like, oh, yeah. But when are you gonna get a real job? You know? So we were talking about that. And I heard from a female winemaker who was just like outraged on my behalf And I thought, wow, that's I don't normally hear hear from listeners such a passionate response. And I realized it's because I shared a little bit of something about myself. And my production assistant, Rachel, who's a young woman in the wine industry, she's really been pushing us So Martine, my Martine Reyes, and myself, our co host, too, with this season, take a couple minutes before we start the conversation and just have a conversation between the two of us and maybe share a little bit about how the subject matter has affected our lives. I haven't really gone into any any personal detail this season so far, but I have talked about, like, you know, early in my career. Twenty years ago, I had this experience, and and and that's the perspective I bring to this conversation. We're trying a little bit more of that this season of just kind of a little bit more about where where we're coming from. Interesting. When I talk about my past, which goes back to the mid seventies and I tell people I remember when the subway was fifteen cents, and you can buy a cup of coffee for tens of their eyes. Just start rolling and they don't wanna hear that at all and how dangerous New York was. But as we broaden the subject to wine as a category, is there a guiding principle you follow? Original conversation you had said, something about making the space more like a digital tasting room. I I don't think I fully understood that. Could you explain that to me? Oh, that I mean, I probably was referring to VIN agency, the idea of, you know, during the pandemic, wineries could not welcome guests typically into their tasting room depending on how bad the pandemic was and and what the rules were by, you know, state by state, but DTC sales skyrocketed as we all know. And wineries were coming to us, and they were like, we need to connect with not only our own customers, but new customers, how do we do that? And so it it's a question of creating a space online where, you know, someone lands on your website and they feel that that they're right there with you, or they can imagine themselves in your tasting room. And they're actually there is it's interesting because there are some wineries that with their websites, they go a little too far talking about their own story. I know I spoke about storytelling earlier, but they they do too much of their own storytelling. And so their website is all about the winemaker and the winemaker's family and the and then because customer doesn't see a place where they can imagine themselves there. So sometimes you have to pull that back and, you know, just show a photo of the tasting room empty so that they can imagine themselves sitting on that stool. There's Well, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I yeah. I mean, I guess with the podcast too, as you said, Steve, we are trying to achieve that kind of comfortable flow where we are all kinda standing around with a glass of wine. And, certainly, we we usually record at five forty five PM Pacific time. So often we do have a glass of wine in hand as we're recording. So Well, I do a lot of my stuff from Europe in the morning and often have a glass of wine. Maybe that indicates a problem another type of problem I have. Anyway, we're talking about personal stories. I think it's good for your help. That's not true. Okay. We talked a little bit about length and and kind of the two or two guest model, and there's two of you who are on, kind of hosting the podcast. Your focus tends to be or strikes me in in listening to your work, very west coast focused. Am I right in doing and saying that and does doing the interview with me indicate that you're looking through to broaden your horizons here? What's your focus or interest? I wouldn't say we're west coast focused. We have had guests from Europe, from we certainly have guests all the time on the East Coast. I mean, when I say guest, I mean, guest panelists. And our our subject matter isn't wine per se at all. It is it is the hot button topics, the issues, that we face as members of the wine industry. So, you know, we might have episodes where both of our panelists are in California, but they're speaking to issues that are important internationally. Okay. So where short term, you know, now we're coming out of this, not really coming out of the whatever the the post COVID new normal is, we're moving into that, where are you taking the four top podcast to address that. You know, talking about tastings is one example. Zoom tastings was kind of the way everybody continued to promote their business. Over COVID, that's changing and going back into in store tastings and, a seller door tastings. Where are you taking the podcast and are you how are you going to evolve it over the next year or so? Right now, I I I wish I had, like, a big, huge, you know, plan. I mean, right now, we're redesigning our website we're redesigning our social media and just continuing to keep our heads above water. But we do have a season debuting in late May or early June. I I can't remember where we landed on that. So we do have a late spring summer season, and then we'll be also producing probably a late fall slash winter season. So how many weeks' worth of, or how many individual podcasts would that? We, you know, last with our first one season, so this last fall and winter was the first time we focused entirely on wine, and I brought Martin on as my co host. We did twelve episodes, which was really fun because when we were speaking to sponsors, we could talk about purchasing the case or the half case. But that turned out to be too much, and everyone was exhausted and fried at the end. So with this season, we went with eight episodes, and it's feeling much more comfortable, like, something we can all wrap our arms around. And then if someone's sick or someone, you know, has to has to go on a trip or whatever. We can catch up, and it's not a big deal. So eight eight feels good for a season. Eight. I mean, I, you know, if I could knock out an episode every week, I would. It's just Oh, it's exhausting. We would have to make a lot more money to to, Well, so you said the magic word about sponsors and monetization and all that. You know, we haven't really addressed that directly. So let's one of the challenges here is a very legitimate call it communications platform. People or advertisers and, marketers are comfortable buying advertising in trade magazines and certainly in consumer magazines, but few that exist anymore. But it seems to be a challenge and a and a different set of standards, I guess, for figuring out how to monetize a podcast. And a lot of it has to do with when and how you present the commercial information that you've done more of this than I have. Can you fill us in on what you've learned and what you've done? Yeah. So it is a little bit difficult with some yeah. I think a lot of wineries are curious about sponsoring podcasts, and they aren't sure how far their advertising dollars will go. But at the same time, I we are hearing from marketing PR folks that they're being asked to look into, quote, alternative outlets for for advertising. You know, people are seeing success in social media. They're seeing success with Instagram and Facebook ads. They're curious about that audio space. And so we offer, you know, we're a small podcast and we work directly with the wineries. We don't work through media buyers. We aren't part of a network. We, you know, so what wineries tell us and what what marketing folks tell us is they really like working with us because it's kind of a way to dip their toe in the water of, digital audio and kind of see how it all works, see how it feels, and we're, like, this tight little group, you know, we're very responsive. People will, we'll hear back right away from from one of my team, and we will work with you to craft messaging that is exactly what you're looking for. And, of course, we don't do the the canned advertisements. We do what are called live reads, and that is me on the mic. It almost sounds like part of the show. You know, you you can barely tell that that we're taking a sponsor break. We do have music in between. We're not trying to, you know, pull the wool over the listeners eyes. And, you know, it's me and my team sitting around, tasting your wine and talking about your wine or maybe talking about the history of your winery and the subappellation it's located in and it's very conversational. And this type of advertising is actually extremely sticky. Podcast advertising, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but has far more traction than advertising, anything that that you're going to be seeing, you can you can skip over. You know, in Instagram, you can just slide right by that ad, and Instagram will still tell you that they they it was an impression. Right? But if you're listening to a podcast, first of all, you have signed up to listen to this. It's not something you didn't just flick on the radio. You have already subscribed to that podcast. You have scrolled through. You've put your you've clicked on that podcast. You said, I wanna listen to this right now. And typically, when people listen to podcasts, they're doing something else. They're riding the subway, they're commuting, they're gardening, they're doing dishes, folding laundry, whatever, you know, it's it's just a way to pass the time. But usually your hands are busy, and usually you're pretty engaged. And if the live read, which is the sponsor read, is being read by the hosts, typically you're not going to even think about skipping over it, you're like, oh, these are my friends. They've been talking to me about this wine issue. I'm just gonna keep listening to them. And so those of us who are podcast addicts, and I am admittedly one of them, we all laugh about how our houses are full of stuff that we've purchased because we heard about it. On a podcast. And the host did a live read and said, oh, I have these sheets, and they're so comfortable, and I've been sleeping so well. And then suddenly, I'm like, wait, how why do I have these sheets? Oh, that's right. Because my favorite podcast host. Did a live rate, and it's very persuasive. Because wineries, you know, obviously don't have a lot of money to spend on marketing and advertising. But one way to look at it is, you know, this is really a captive audience. So how much would you pay to get a thousand people in a room tasting your wine and listening to your story. I think a lot of businesses would pay a lot for that. And so that's the kind of value that podcasts offer. And then also it's Evergreen. So if you want that MP three file, you can put it on your website and it can live there forever. You can have it there for anyone to listen to. The other thing we're hearing a lot from wineries is that sales folks are on the road all the time. They're busy, and they are tired of getting written materials, and they love podcasts because they can listen while they're driving. So, you know, hey, why don't we do a series of mid rolls where I just tell the story of your winery, the history, talk about your appalachian, whatever you want, talk about your terroir, and then you can also distribute that to all your sales folks. And they can listen to it. And, you know, we all hear the stories of the, you know, wholesale employee in some faraway state whose job really is to sell vodka and tequila, but they also have your wine portfolio and you really, really need to get your message across to them, and it's you know, it's not that they don't wanna know about that you're wine, but they're very busy. And, you know, how do you reach that person? Maybe it's through audio. Maybe it's through a podcast. Interesting. One of the things I've I've noted in a little bit of data that we do get is I get five times whatever the the weekly listenership is, say it's fifteen hundred, and that's probably a good average of of what I get. Yeah. It'll be five or six thousand after a couple of weeks. So the evergreen nature of it is really significant. And if you tried to equivalize it to, pass along readership in a magazine. They're two totally different things. Again, I think the point you made is just that people are making a conscious, positive action to say I want to listen to this as opposed to just having it cross their eyes when they're reading a magazine or doing something. So it's an entirely different medium. One of the guidelines I like to use is try and figure out how you can make people feel that they have gone to that winery can't bring them to the winery. How can we bring the winery to them? We can do it in the theater of the mine and in their heads and and the insights that that come through from the person who's running them. I can think of a couple of ones that I did that I thought. Even people that I know well came out with things that I had no idea about, just emerge from the podcast. Okay. So we're running out of time here. Well, first of all, you said you wrote five books. Why don't you give us the names of those books and where people can buy them if they're interested in so doing? Oh my goodness. My first book was called Voodoo Vintners, and it was about Biodynamics. At the time, I think it was, like, two thousand eleven when it was published. At the time, I couldn't find a book about Biodynamic when growing that I really could understand. And so I just thought alright one. And then my next one was complete wine selector. It's kind of a all around wine guide. The next one was how to fake your way through a wine list because I felt like, you know, as professionals, we go in, we go to a restaurant, we immediately choose the wine. And our friends who are not in the industry are like, how did you do that? How did you know what to choose? And I thought, oh, well, there's this kind of like, once you know the secret code, it's easy. I don't have to know anything about the wine. There's some, you know, a few things I can look for. So that was kind of the premise of that book. But again, it's a pretty basic a guide to wine. And then, Jose all day, what came out in two thousand seventeen. At the time there were just like with the Biodynamics book, there were no books in the English language about Rose. Of course, the moment it came out, like, two others came out in the same month. So that was with Abrams, which is a publisher in New York that's very design focused. And so that book did very well not only in bookstores and workshops, but also in Home decor stores, like anthropology, places like that. So the follow-up to that was Spark wiring wine anytime, and it has the same format. We have the same amazing artist, Mercedes Leon, doing the artwork. And so the companion to Rosay and the companion to Sparkling wine, that also are really cute on your coffee table. And where can they be bought? Oh, anywhere books are sold. I won't I although I should say, please go to powell's powell's book dot com because I think that's the URL because that is our wonderful independent bookstore in Portland, Oregon where I'm based. Right. I've read a lot about that. Okay. I like to end my interviews. But first of all, thank you for sharing your time and thoughts and insights. Learned a lot from this, even more than I did in their original conversation. Well, thanks for interviewing me. And I look forward to having more Yep. Around the world somewhere. But I like to end mine with what's the big takeaway? If someone recognized that roughly sixty five percent of the people who are listening to this podcast or the US, I assume trade. So what do you think they might find as a practical takeaway from having listened to us? This is totally logrolling for myself. But you did give me the opportunity, so I'm going to say it. I I think a lot of people ask me about starting their own podcast. And if you're a winery, this is, you know, I have a team of seven, and you and I have both talked about how we spend ten hours a week on this. This is not a realistic project. And so I hear about people starting wine podcasts and then shutting them down after five episodes. If you want to get your message in front of podcast listeners, support a small wine podcast, doesn't have to be the four top, reach out to any one podcast you appreciate and say, can we sponsor you? That is the best and most efficient way to get your message across. You know, you hear people say, oh, well, it's so easy nowadays. You just get a mic. You sit in closet. And I'm you and I know Steve, you know, yes, you can do that, and you can babble, and it can sound totally disorganized, and you can lose your listeners, or you can get a professional who, like you and I, you know, writes an outline, is goes about it very professionally, has an editing team, and that's the message that's gonna stick. So, yeah, I I'm I'm sorry if it's a little bit self promotion, but, you know, you don't have to just support the four talk support any small podcast. Yeah. Tell you Wayne podcast too. I'm I'm reminded, talk about how easy it is. I remember a way back when a creative director of mine, when I was at an ad agency. And this is how old it is. He said, well, you just put a piece of paper in the typewriter, so that makes it about thirty five years old right now. And then you a blank piece of paper in the typewriter, and then you open a vein. That's what it's like to write. I mean, it it it it saps the in I hate to say the inner juices of you, but I mean, it's really, innovating, because you put so much into into doing the writing. And I think I found podcasting to be very much same thing trying to get into the head of somebody else and get them to articulate it, to get a chance to know who they are. And I think, this podcast has helped me understand you, and I appreciate that. I really enjoyed the conversation. If people wanted to reach out to you, How would you like them to do so? They can go to katherine cole dot com, the four top dot org, vin agency dot com. I'm out there. Just Google me. And the four top is available on Spotify and iTunes and all the rest. Yes. We used to be on NPR when when we were with OPP, but sadly, we are not anymore, but we yes. We're definitely on Spotify. I I like Stitcher myself. Everyone's got their own. It's what I use. Yeah. Podcast app that they prefer, but, you know, we're we're out there for sure. In fact, I used that one because that's what Levy Dalton. Started with or that's where I found him and have been listening ever since. Anyway, this is Steve Racing. Thank you for listening to this week's edition of, get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. My guest this week has been Catherine Cole, an author and fellow podcaster in the wine and food industry. Big thanks to Catherine for participating and stay tuned next week for another fascinating interview, on our show. Cheers. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast brought to you by Vineetli Academy, home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at the Natalia International dot com for courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast, and catch us on Soundflower, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. 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