Ep. 173 Adam Teeter & Zach Geballe (The VinePair Podcast) on podcasting | Monty Interviews Other Wine Podcasters

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine. A quick host. And I guess today, they're gonna introduce themselves. So I'm Adam Teeter. I'm one of the co founders of Vinepair. And I'm Zachcher Ball. I'm Adam's co host in Asomeli in Seattle, Washington. Cool. That was good. That saved me, a little bit of little bit of energy. They're just terrified of getting people's names wrong. So what do we we what are we guys gonna talk about? Talk about podcasting and your idea that everybody should have one. It's like a pet, isn't it? It is. I mean, I think at this point in time, every media company definitely has to have one. We launch hours about what? Six months ago now? Yeah. We've been putting episodes out for six months, but it's been I'll be honest about a year and a half long process, mostly of me controlling them over and over until he finally said, yes. Yeah. You just beat him. It's actually kind of romantic in a way. Yeah. Okay. So if you guys wanna hold hands, I don't mind this way. They are sitting rather close together in this studio, Monty. So, I mean, obviously, the original vision, how far how close to that have you actually got. Yeah. Why don't you chat about how we started it or what what the idea was for that? Yeah. So, actually, what happened was I had Adam on as a guest on my, other podcast, which is sort of on hiatus now called this gorgeous. So it's it's nepotitism rules based. Sort of. Yeah. It was a little quid pro quo. But, and we have, I think, a really good conversation. We talked a lot about sort of, you know, media as associates with wine and things like that. And then in the back of my mind, I was like, well, you know, it'd be interesting to think about doing a more regular podcast with Adam. I think we have disagree after listening to us. A good sort of rip parts a with one another. And there's just something about the format of podcasting, which I think lends itself really well to discussions of things like wine. And at the time, Vinepere had done a little bit of audio work, but didn't have a regular podcast. So, basically, it wasn't me saying like, Hey, let's do this. And then Adam saying, okay, let me check with, you know, the other powers that be, and then a month and a half going by me emailing Adam again and being like, Hey, so what's going on. And after a few few rounds of that, we finally actually started recording, which is great because I think it's gone, gone pretty well. Yeah. I mean, for us, the the biggest thing with podcasting is for any media company looking to get into a podcast, we had to figure out first thing are we to be able to sell it to advertisers? What's it gonna look like in terms of an audience and look in terms of production value. But once we were able to figure all that stuff out, it made a lot of sense. So yeah, we've been having we've run the podcast for about six months now. We put on episode every week. So I think that totals times we had now thirty. No. We're probably we're in the low twenties at this point that have been actually released as it's at time of recording. So unlike this podcast, your quality rather than quantity? We're a little bit above. I mean, weekly is, I think weekly for for our kind of content is pretty good. I mean, if Adam and I didn't have enough else going on in our lives, could we probably do two podcasts a week, maybe. But but wine is one of those challenging topics where I think unless you're gonna really focus on the news and let's be honest, most wine news is kinda boring to most people. There's not that much interesting that happens. You kinda have to talk topics and and content. And, you know, Adam knows from running a media company. Sometimes content is hard to find. And so, you know, you don't wanna do what I what I wanted to avoid we want to avoid is, you know, feeling like we're forcing it. So weekly kind of allows us to to strike that balance where we can be topical and timely, but we're not, you know, struggling to figure out what the hell we're gonna talk about. I also think for us, the goal is creating a podcast that is very accessible. So, you know, Vine pairs the largest publication in the US because it's accessible when we write about wine, beer cocktails, etcetera. So while I think Zack and I would like sometimes to, like, really geek out, we have to also remember that there's a barrier of entry to those geeky conversations. Even in terms of just the vocabulary we may use or the way we may talk about regions and assume that someone is aware of those regions. So for us, when it comes to planning for podcasts, we're really thinking to about how do we ensure that a general consumer, the same person who potentially also on their, you know, commute to work maybe listens to NPR. Just national public. Right? Yeah. And also listens to potentially like the daily New York Times podcast and some other these other podcasts and just adds us to their repertoire. That's what we're really thinking about as opposed to someone who's like, look, I'm gonna listen to every single drinks podcast out there because I'm I work in the business and I really wanna understand this. I think, you know, Debbie Dalton's podcast is a good example of that. Like, I'll drink to this or whatever, origin to that. Yeah. It's really for people who work in the industry, Geeks, which is great, but we knew we we couldn't create that if we wanted it to be much more mass market. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's it's important, you know, we each in our own way need to sometimes be reamed into from going down those rabbit holes, which which, you know, for both Adam nights, it's fun because, beverage is a passion for both of us. So it's very easy to get carried away and, you know, but it's true that you wanna walk fast fine line. You know, I I always think of it as sort of, my goal with the podcast when I when I sit down, I think about an episode is to, is to leave things so that the interested listener wants to go find out more. I don't wanna answer all of their questions because there's no way to do that. And it's I'd rather leave someone saying like, I wonder if that or like, oh, it prompts questions as opposed to a really comprehensive look at a subject because for one, that's impossible really to do. Then it does alienate people because there are people who wanna like, yeah, they wanna learn a little something about any of the topics and we've covered. They wanna learn a little bit about Napa Valley. They wanna learn a little bit about Bordeaux or they wanna learn a little bit about what they should have at Thanksgiving, but they don't necessarily want to be inundated with facts and and information. And, you know, like I said, for me, that's a challenge sometimes because I like to talk about those things, but but keeping it at that level is is a really good goal. Yeah. I think it's, like, a good lesson to learn that we people to teach ourselves we've learned through the print publication. And then also, I guess is like most consumers don't care about soil composition. Right? Like, they just don't. Like, they don't care about the climate of a certain growing season. It's just like, not what they care about. They care about like, is this good? What who should I drink it with? When should I drink it? Why should I drink it? Right? Like, for us, we have to walk that fine line and like potentially want to talk about some soil composition, but also not really wanting to because half of podcast listeners will will turn the podcast off. You know, they use that really handy skip forward thirty seconds button a bunch. I also think, you know, it actually it brings me to sort of something that we had just mentioned, which is sort of the complexities of Italian wine and translating them into a podcast media or any medium where you're we're not dealing with great deals of specificity. Because to me, one of the real challenges is as a sommelier as well as a podcast host and writer is Italian wine almost demands complexity. The wines themselves are usually pretty complex and just the combination of the number of varietals, the growing regions, and the differences within them, it's it's a generally speaking, a subject that defies my attempt to be very, very general about it because otherwise you end up saying really boring and sort of not very useful things like Sanjuveisse is like, you know, as a medium body is high in acid and tannin, and, you know, it goes well with tomato sauce. Like, I mean, that's fine, but that's not really the sort of thing that we're trying to talk about either. And, and that's where I think it comes down to the other part of podcasts lasting that can be really powerful, which is the ability to, tell a story whether it's a story of a specific wine or of a place or of a person or of one of our own experiences. And I think some of the most powerful moments in the in the best moments we've had on the podcast have been when either Adam or I are able to talk about experiences that we've had. And even if they're not experiences that our audience has shared, I think about what makes, you know, what makes a great podcast like, this American life or things like that powerful. It's not because it's the listener has experienced what is being talked about personally, but it's that a story is being told. And human beings, we love stories. We love to be told stories. And so I I try to think about that as much as I can, which is even though there's a way in which talking about yourself can be a little bit self indulgent for sure. You'll also have to remember that there is a a real power. You know, people in the end listen to podcasts, I think most people listen to most podcasts because they like the people who host it. Yeah. Right? They wanna hear, you know, hopefully, Adam and me talk about wine, beer, spirits, but really kind of ourselves too. And that if you try and remove yourself too much from the podcast, you know, this is what happened to me with my first podcast, or, which is that it was a much more of an interview focused. I I it really interesting. I got to interview a lot of really interesting people in the world of beverage, and some of them I think were were quite good. But you end up just asking questions and then relying on your desk to be interesting or not. They had some interesting guests like Adam, had some less interesting guests who I won't name. And, sure you've had I'm sure you've had something to do to guess and less interesting. Yes. No comment. And, as a result, like, it was very hit or miss in terms of that quality. And I think with with the fine pair podcast, what what is good is that, you know, Adam and I have a lot of similarities, we have a lot of shared experiences, but we also have very different experiences. We live in totally different parts of the United States. And so That's actually interesting. Yeah. We we make the show in two different locations. So I come in from our studio and our offices in New York City, and Zach back rents a studio in Seattle, Washington, and we we work. We hook in via the interwebs. Uh-huh. Once a week to make this show, which is which is pretty cool. Also, you think because actually this is the first time he and I've ever met in person. Yeah. And you're joking? No. I'm not. I'm not. We mentioned the space less than an hour ago. You just walked into literally to the studio. Right? Yeah. We've never Just got off the plane both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, no. You weren't even all the same plane together. No. That's fine. That's incredible. Yeah. You guys just look so cute together. It is like a little bit like one of the scenes and, like, I don't know, they're probably weren't there those movies that came out in, like, that feel like in the mid nineties where, like, someone met on them. People like, was, like, you got a male. Right? Oh, we had a year. I was thinking more of Win Harry met Sally. I'm not gonna ask who's who? Yeah. So I think the point I was trying to make is just that that storytelling and the interaction of the hosts with one another is, I think, a large part of what makes a good podcast in that that is what makes them information relatable to people. Yes. It's that they they can trust that Adam and I are knowledgeable and knowledgeable to an extent that we're not gonna necessarily share on the show other than in little bits where it comes out every now and then. And but also are genuinely interested in communicating these things to our audience and and I hope that is what comes across. You know, you never totally know. But, you know, in the feedback that I think we've both gotten, it seems like that's that's what's happening and and we're just we're trying to to make the subject that we're both passionate about that is our life work relatable to people who may not ever see it in that light, but do enjoy drinking and wanna know more about what they're drinking and why they're drinking it and and have some some guidance, but also some, I don't know, support, I guess. What did you do major in that college? Different things? So I was a journal as a major. I was actually also a journal as a major. Alright. So two gigs, basically. Yeah. I mean, two peas in the fold. I think it's interesting because I think most people in this podcast world. It's very unusual. Just to start very unusual that, in white the majority. I'm one of them that quotes people call me a journalist. I'm not a journalist. I'm a wine writer. I'm not a trained journalist, and most wine writers are not a tall journalist. It's really interesting that you guys actually have that professional background. So that was actually really important to us when we started Vineperer because I found that there's an issue here. So the biggest thing I think that most people are trying to do when they read about wine, when they read about food, is really understand cultures, understand politics. There's this really amazing article actually two weeks ago in the Columbia journalism review, which is all about how in the last four or five years, a lot of writers winning pulitzer prizes in the US are food writers because they're writing about food as a way to talk about culture, as a way to talk about race relations, things like that. And we're seeing the same thing in beverage. So when we started buying practice, it was really important to us that the writers we hired were journalists, had journalism degrees, had had written for other journalistic holistic outlets, weren't necessarily, you know, just people who had travel and therefore we're travel writers, right? And it's sort of falling into what we really want people who understood how to tell larger stories. Anything that's what we think about a lot when we talk about when we deal with the podcast is how do we tell a larger story through talking about these wines are talking about this whiskey that we're, you know, that we're interested in, how we talk about entrepreneurship, or how do we talk about quality and value and how do you place value on those things? That's really important to us when we think about the types of stories we wanna tell on the podcast. But, yeah, I mean, it is interesting because you never if it really translates. Yeah. And it's fine because I would I would sort of echo a little bit what Adam said, but also talk about sort of, you know, the journalism background part is definitely, yeah, a little bit atypical in in this industry. And for me, like, especially I was a, in particular, a broadcast journalism So while I've done a fair bit of writing, in addition to working in restaurants since I was, I don't know, fifteen. The audio side of it, the the sort of digital media side of it was something that I actually studied in school. So it's very interesting to me because I did that and then did not work in the industry for a period of time. And then through wine and beverage found my way back into it, but that training is still there. And it's actually I'm gonna relate my own little funny story, which is so when we first started doing the podcast and I I also edit the podcast, and I was coming at it from the perspective of someone who did produced radio segments. And when you produce a segment for traditional radio, you're trying to make the audio as clean as you can. And the idea is that, you know, everything is very polished that it sounds like what you expect hear on the radio. And my wife after listening to one of the early podcasts said to me, like, you know, why what what are you doing? Like, yeah, there's some likes and hums and pauses and people stutter. The podcast idea of it is that it has that authenticity. You're not making a radio show. You're making a podcast. They're different, even if sometimes they're they're grouped together. And so I I took that note to hard, and I said, that's a good point. And so I really try to limit the amount of that really kind of cleaning of the audio that I do other than to make it you know, obviously, listenable. And every now and then when there's, a digression or when I say something bad about a sponsor and don't realize it. With those, like, happen once. Yeah. With those few exceptions, it does it does sort of make me fight against my own instincts or my own trained instincts, I guess, as a journalism student. But it, I think, makes the end result actually sound better more natural. And that's, you know, that's an important part too. Yeah. It's interesting this idea of storytelling because the lack of it traditionally in wine journalism, but it is now emerging even in in the print media. This idea of of giving an article some sort of narrative. Otherwise, if I went somewhere, I tried some wine, it smelled the strawberries and I gave it a fifty five or eighty five points, bam, nobody cares. Nobody gets a shit. Right? No. I mean, I think the biggest thing in terms of that with wine writing is wine writing has a has a long history of talking about experiences that the consumer can never have. Yeah. Right. I tasted this wine. It tasted this. It was right. And I did it with the wine maker in the seller from the barrel. Like, no one else gets to do that. And we try to be very cognizant of that. And when we talk about wine and when we write about wine. Right? If the reader, I mean, I think one of the the best examples of this was sort of like what was happening in the early aughts with a lot of the food publications. So Savor was really guilty of this. Right? I mean, even though they sort of revolutionized food writing, they then were their own worst enemies and is why basically almost out of business. And the problem was, you know, one of the articles that I remember really distinctly was a wine ride. It was a it was a food writer who basically like was like, I took this amazing trip of wine and food across Spain with Jose andres. It's like, no one else gets to do that. You know, and that's cool that you have these late night stories of making gin tonics with Jose andres and learning about how amazing a gin tonic can be. And then also having him pour you a wine from Priorath and understand that this is amazing region, but no one else gets to have that experience. So you you have that experience, but you you have to try to tell the story a different way. Yeah. If you gotta communicate the experience Exactly. In a way that people appreciate rather than just on just otherwise it's just showing off. And and that's what a lot of these older publications tend to do. You know, I'm gonna do a podcast later on god. I'm I'm attitude on my podcast. Yeah. No one wants no one wants to hear that, you know. And I think we try to talk about that with the podcast too. So where can you go when we write about wines when we talk about these wines to actually try them? Right. And if you can go someplace and actually try them, that it's not no one wants to listen about it. Like, I wanna listen and then go do. Yeah. It's all like a movie. It's all reviews a move movie when you go and sit. Right? Exactly. You can't you can't fluff to Prearato or wherever it is. And, you know, you do get that I mean, I'm of, obviously, a lot of connections with Montecino, and some of the writing on Montecino, it it is you get the feeling that the journalist is really happy to tell you that they tried a wine that only three thousand bottles were made. And which is fine, which is great for the journalist. It's it's And if you get, give me some technical information about it, but if you just say I just tried this and I'm really kind of privileged to what I want, it does come across as a little bit elitist. Yeah. Totally. And, and that really isn't, I think, what it should be about. And that's where kind of wine got a bad name, I think, in the early days still is that perception of elitism of work in the wine industry. I think it reminds me of something that Adam has said several times on the podcast in various episodes. He's quite he's quite repetitive. Yeah. You know. He's got his talking points. And one of them is, you know, in the end, it's just it's just alcohol, right? It's just fermented grape juice. And obviously we don't really think that's the beginning and end of it. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother doing this. Right. But there is something that has to be kept in mind, which is that for a lot of people, you know, they drink wine beer spirits, whatever. First and foremost, because they like what happens to them when they get a little drunk. And we all do too. And so, you know, there's something about that that that has to be kept in mind whenever we do a podcast or anything like that. And it's, you know, remembering that that, again, our own interests own passion, our own devotion to this subject is we're in this regard, you know, we're in the one percent of people or less than that who give a crap about any of this in that to that degree. And as a result, I have to remember myself sometimes, okay, let's take it back a notch, you know, but at the same time, you don't wanna be too reductive about it. It's a balance. Right? You have to you have to walk a line and and you have to you have to, you know, we don't wanna come across as not really caring. I mean, we wanna I think to be very clear to the audience that both of us deeply care about this, that whether we love something, hate something, or feel somewhere in between, it's a subject matter that we think about a lot that we that we care about. And it is one of the really great privileges of working in this industry for me is that have the tremendous ability to both, you know, work in cover a subject that I also get to enjoy on my own time. And, you know, I was so to speak a little bit more about myself. Apologies, but I'm doing what I said I would do. I so I actually was really interested in sports journalism as a student in college. And I thought that was what I was gonna go into. And it wasn't until I got closer to graduation and met some actual working journalists. It had some internships. And then some friends of mine who were a little older had entered the profession that I realized that like ninety five percent of known as hate sports. Like, they're sick to death of it. They don't wanna watch on their free time. They've lost the passion for the sport that gave them their entry into that field in the first place and that it's their job. And when they go home, they do anything else. And I didn't want that to be my life. I didn't wanna cover a a subject that was gonna be, you know, totally that then I was going to be totally sick of sick of. Yeah. I didn't I didn't want it didn't want that to be me. I didn't wanna be forced to talk about something, you know, for a living that I really would have avoided had I had any choice. And so fortunately beverage is something that I don't see myself ever getting bored of, and that even when the tenth person at a cocktail party is like, oh, so tell me what we think about this wine. I don't really ever get tired of talking about wine or or beer spirits or whatever it is. Although sometimes people will get tired of hearing me. So with that said, it is true. It is true. I think wine is one of those really interesting things for me too. We're like, I don't get tired of talking about it. And I used to work in the music business before this. And So it's amazing music and sport. And, yeah, and you both ended up on Skidrow in the wind. Yeah. Yeah. And music was like, you know, I worked with some really amazing bands, covered a lot of really amazing bands, and you get sick of going to concerts. And like I was like, well, I I wanna stop so that concerts can still be a pleasure whereas I don't really get sick of tasting wines of having someone bring me something and say, Hey, you've gotta try this. It's amazing. And also because of the point that, you know, Zach made, which is that also kind of do like a little bit of what I feel like when I get a little buzzed. And I think, you know, there are the craft beer industry is much better at taking itself less seriously and understand that there's that part of it as well. Some of the spirits industry that cocktail energy for sure is good about it. Some of whiskey people or take themselves pretty seriously too. And it's interesting for me to watch the evolution of what's happening now in parts of the United States and also in Canada with the cannabis industry. All the publications that are now forming and the question of, you know, are they as are trying to take themselves super seriously? Oh, they are. Yeah. You know, for rifle cannabis and biodynamic cannabis. It's very interesting. You know, the vineyard I used to work on in, in, Mendoina County, which is a biodynamic farmers now is now marijuana Plant. Really? A number. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's probably more profitable for them. Probably. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Why did they have a canvas? I've not seen that yet. Oh, come come. All I all I see is all. Down to certified by the amount. Pretty crazy. Yeah. Well, I've learned a new thing, which is always good. Is the high the same? Well, I haven't I, you know, unfortunately, I was only there for, four days later on this year. So I haven't I haven't been able to didn't have time to to try to try. That is an unconvincing explanation. Yeah. I I sat next to the guy that owned the he's very well known wine producing. He's still making wine with, so I won't name him, but it's all legal. But, you know, I would love to have tried actually seriously, but just to see. I'm super curious. Yeah. I mean, how you feel the next day if you feel feel a bit zonked or if you feel nicely zonked or if you feel a bit kind of hungovery zon because you can get that if you smoke a joint as you can with beer or whisk your spoons or wine. So it's it's absolutely classic, isn't it? I get stoners in to to talk about podcasts. I'm just talking about booze and and, you know, and getting high. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, look, we all we all love those. Both of the both have lost eye contact at that very moment. They both looked up at the ceiling. I I mean, we we definitely, yeah, you know, we human beings love, altered states of consciousness. However, we happen to get Exactly. Let's just let's call that. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool today. So I say thanks to my guest today. Adam Teeter and Zack Jirbal. Jibal. Jibal. That's who I spoke shoes. That's alright. That lost Stogie. That's really throwing me off my off my game. The Vine Bear hosts, it's been really cool, funny to talk to you, and, some great observations about what works and what does not. Yeah. Thanks for having us. When you're talking. Thanks so much, Marty. That's all. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.