Ep. 260 Lawrence Francis (Interpreting Wine Podcast)on Wine Podcasts | Monty Interviews Other Wine Podcasters

Italian wine podcast Chincin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monty Walden. My guest today is Lawrence Francis. Lawrence has a podcast called interpreting wine, and hopefully he's gonna tell us all about it. So why did you create your podcast and when? And what did you do before? Why and when? And and, yeah, the whole story. So I'm actually a qualified business psychologist. So that's where I've spent most of my professional career, working in the UK, working in Dubai, working, yeah, London Main League, and I always had the goal. I always had the aim of of do my own thing. And yeah, long story short, the powers that be wanted to kind of shoehorn business psychology closer towards being a sort of a medical science rather than a business science and and I kind of wasn't having that, the sort of the, I guess, the oversight and the hoops you had to jump through. I I just kind of wasn't up for that, for the next sort of year, thirty, forty years. This is called business psychology. Business psychology. Yeah. And So what does that you mean there as a as a as a profession? Yeah. It's as broad as anything to do with people in the workplace. So we talk about a lot about the cycle. So where you come in interviews where you develop people coaching and training, where you fire them, you know, the way you fire them, how you fire them, disciplinary HR, all of these sorts of things, basically improving the effectiveness of anything to do with people in the workplace sites. Massive broad, area. And So understanding your employees and what gets them motivated and what gets them annoyed and Yeah. And what makes them stay loyal to the company. And and then it's, yeah, it's as much as the company wants to do, you know, that there's obviously there's what the rule book says or there's what the research says, and then there's what companies actually have got the money for. But you must have enjoyed that when you were doing it though. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Really good fun. I mean, I I think, you know, I got to I got to travel, and I got to, as I say, work abroad, work in in Dubai, and, and, yeah, I I only had some fantastic experiences, but I was never in any doubt that the long term goal was always to do it for myself. That was why I chose not to go clinical psychology, where as I saw earlier, it was more, you know, go and work in a hospital. And after twenty years or whenever you could get your own clients, but I I was very firm from the outset that the biggest percentage of business psychologists were working for themselves. So I, yeah, essentially, even the decision to study psychology was very much a a passion led decision. And I, yeah, decided, you know, crazily, I guess, to to come into the world of wine. And what how old were you when you came into the world of wine? So, yeah, I've missed if we say, I'm really only I would say, came into the world of wine when I started the podcast, which was in September two thousand seventeen. And you are So just over just over two years ago. So, yeah, that's, thirty nine. Okay. So, yeah, it wasn't just a midlife crisis thing. Well, I get well, I hope that's not even midlife yet. I think I've I've all got a fair few years. To go on after that. But yeah, I've never been somebody who's afraid to, to kind of, change and do things differently. And I did. I I looked at. Wine and looked at kind of the the traditional jobs that were there and and none of them really kind of appealed to me. You know? Why why why not soccer or sorry why not soccer or or being a a chef or a painter or whatever. A tour guide. Why why why? Yeah. I mean, I think that there is then there's me sitting here having done it and having worked in it now for, you know, for more than a couple of years, but maybe at the time, my thinking wasn't so, wasn't so clear. I mean, I think the the immediate the immediate sort of motivation, the immediate push that I had was actually trying to, secure a, jobs because after I had sort of decided I wanted to move away from psychology, actually, wanted to have a break, wanted to have, you know, kind of a reset, and I actually found myself living in Madrid, found myself living over in Spain, with the motivation of improving my language, skills, and also, yeah, learning about another culture in kind of embedding myself in that culture. And the find it kind of really short term motivation for starting the podcast was actually a job role that I was going for in Madrid, and and that job was to work for a tapas tour company over there, which is one of the few jobs that's actually available as an English speaker. You know, you you pretty much you need you do need to be native speaker or or near wasn't never quite that level. Enough Spanish to be able to deal with your employer. Totally. Yeah. And then obviously with the English that you could take a tour bus or whatever. Yeah. Exactly. But this was that this was actually doing their social media that that was the thing. It wasn't actually going out doing the tours. And my big plan was you know, I know all the theory around Facebook ads and creating a community and running Facebook ads and and etcetera, etcetera. But I wanted to have something different because I I wasn't, as I say, I wasn't potentially gonna be the most qualified person that was going for the job. So I figured, let me turn up with a podcast all about Spanish wine. So about What was that called? It's got a good title of what was it called? Which one behind the bodega door? Yeah. Yeah. So that that was I mean, the podcast was always called interpreting wine, but that was the kind of the show format. So that was me going out to Spanish wine producers. Mainly, they were in Penedes, and they were in the the Carver producers, and and it is the same meme. Some still wines in the Penedes region. But it was a hell of a lot of work because I was having to travel down from Madrid to Penedez, which was sort of four or five hours drive each way. Come back. And then I was I had this sort of long reel of tape that I recorded, you know, on the on my mobile before I kind of got my my kit sorted out, but it was all on the mobile, and it was it was all in Spanish. So I then had to come back and, you know, through that sort of post visit haze of all the all the tastings and all the wines that I've had. Then sit down with this, like, kind of two hours and three hours and they're, you know, very hospitable. They'll they'll they'll they'll keep you there and show you around full of Spanish or they had to decipher that. And as the name of the podcast is interpreting wine, bring that back into English, and broadcast it to an English audience. So there are only eight episodes with that format simply because it it took so long. It just it took forever. So you dived in a fair old chunk a little bit more than you could easily digest. What was the next step? Yeah. I think well, the next next step was not getting the job. So all of the all of my, the birthday plans. Yeah. All all of that motivation that that really set the whole thing in in motion, not getting the job, and then realizing, okay, I can't I can't stay in Madrid, you know, and coming back to London. And, yeah, but still having that itch having having loved, genuinely loved, you know, every minute at least of the touring, not not so much to coming back an editing part, which was, as I say, six, seven, eight hours per episode it was it was insane. And and then yeah, not not necessarily getting the the the the most constructive or or positive feedback on the back of that. You know, a lot of people, they were like, oh, we don't wanna hear from you. We wanna hear from the winemaker. Right. Who are you? And and and I think they were right. You know, I didn't really have the depth of knowledge and depth of confidence really, I guess, to to tell those stories. I wasn't qualified to tell the producer stories, and people picked up on that. And I knew that myself. But you knew there was a kernel of something that you could develop. So what was the next I think it was I mean, I came back and I thought, oh, I'll do this as the odd holiday. I'll I'll go back to Spain and and and that was it. And then I I I've always had an interest in different wine regions and, you know, new, and for the mainstream kind of exotic wine regions. And, and I, at the end of January, I I I got on my first trip. I, you know, I, I kind of backstep a little bit. I thought, okay. I went through the phase of I'll do it when I just go abroad. And then I figured, look, Hey, I'm in London. There's cool things here. There's restaurants here. There's call me Black and speak to you here. I'll do some research and quickly kind of found out that London was was interested in Austrian wine and Slovakia wine and all of these, you know, wines from different places that really appealed to me, not just the normal, not just the Spanish, not just the Italian stuff. So I then, yeah, I I was over in, I then went to visit a couple of producers over in Bergland at the end of January. In Austria. Yeah. In Austria. And and and that was actually, yeah, again, making things difficult for myself in hindsight. I didn't I didn't start with, with, with London. I was like, oh, I'll jump on a plane and go over to Austria. But at least they had the language, at least we could do it, do the whole thing in English. Yeah. And it didn't need that eight hours of transcribing and and and translating. And that would that was the revelation. It was I came back and I was actually looking forward to doing again, and one was wincing when I opened the the the the the file, but then realizing, hold on it. Actually, it's it's enjoyable. It's it's quick. It's it's fun. Were you working for a wine merchant at the time? No. No. I I I yeah. Later later sort of got into that. Yeah. And then that was that was the that was then the the snowball. And, why? Cause you were in the industry then or what? Well, as I say, I mean, you know, I think being in the industry is a very loose term to to to to put on that, but I think I just I knew that I loved that format. I mean, it was a bad panic partly. It was just it wasn't as torturous as the Spanish version, you know, the the Spanish project. It was just, oh, I can do it in my own language and And then I think that was the I I finally got the format right and either just had, yeah, again, you know, let's say looking back, not at the time, not so much of a a huge plan. But I just went and did, then it then it was it was open season, then it was let me get out there. Let me let me use my skill that no one really in a bar, you know, a couple of other, you know, notable podcasters least, you know, not least of all the UK wine show, which is in London, Chris Scott, and then also, I'll drink to that podcast, which is over in New York, David Dalton. And I asked people in the that I was starting to meet on social media when I was doing my research in the in the London wine trade and people then I started interviewing, I would always ask them and say, oh, you know, what what are the podcasts that you absolutely have to listen to, and it was only those two that kept coming up and I and I intuitively figured out, look, there's a gap in the market. Yeah. No one's filling it. I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in there and and and and do this. Alright. So what was your USB then in terms of, the next step that you made. So you've identified, you know, you've made a you have sort of enthusiastic basically started. That was a bit of a dead end. Yeah. You learned a lesson. And then you realized that there's space in the in the in the Now in London. Yeah. So what what was the next step? As I say, I I think the I think it was just naivety, really. It was just a good thing that I think sometimes because you see things with with, innocent eyes. You don't have any preconceptions or and you don't say I'm not gonna go and see him because he's I don't like him. What do we just you have to No. Yeah. It was, you know, being a being open minded. But I think, yeah, I I very quickly dawned on me that there were some people who who had more influence than most on social media that there's this stat on Instagram where you can look at somebody. And I think it's really really useful and and nobody seems to talk about it. You look you go to their profile and you see how many of the people you follow are following them. It will it will put it down there in the bottom. And then you start to see, oh, wow. I've been doing my research and a hundred of my people I rate and follow, they follow this person and then you realize, okay, they they're kind of very influential that, you know, it's, of course, it's flawed by whatever Instagram gives you, but I took from that. That was, you know, that was part of the research and just discovering these these figures in the in the London wine and restaurants scene who I thought I'm gonna get them on the podcast and that that was the the initial motivation getting to those sort of to those figures? So you're interviewing what? I mean, you said the food and beverage into what you importers, wine shop owners, restaurants, restaurants, chefs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I tried to get as close to people who are making wine in London. I guess it was still a little bit of a hangover from, from from Spain. So, very early on, one of the first people I interviewed was, Warwick at renegade Wine, and in Bethna Green, who's making wine under an arch in Bethna Green. Okay. Getting his fruit from, you know, UK and international. That was that was kind of early on. And then, yeah, one of the, you know, the people I interviewed quite early in episode fifteen was, honey Spencer, who who again, she seemed to be one of these people who had that influence, you know, you could see who was following her, who was liking her posts. And, I I thought felt like she was an important person to to reach out to and to and to get on and and that proved to be the the the case. You know, she she was great on there. She she just started a a role at a restaurant called Nula where she'd written the wine list. So we had, like, yeah, really kind of honest open chat about that. We got to try even more of the kind of funky wines, remember some, a check, a blanc de noir, I think it was. And and just, yeah, some some cool wines actually, and that and that episode was was was kind of just showed that I think it influenced my editing style because we were sat in the basement of the restaurant. And it would it had been a sort of a, you know, she'd really done a a good deep dive into all the wines and we ended up being around forty minutes the episode, and we were just sort of closing off really. We was just it reaches its natural point. And like literally twenty seconds before the end, fire alarm went off in the basement, And as I'm sure you'll know, anything that's got a high pitch, it just cuts right through to anybody who's listening, and it just, you know, blows their ear drums apart, basically. And, and I was editing it back, and I've forgotten about the the fire alarm when I got to that bit, and it kind of scared me and I was kind of gonna take it out. I was like, oh, that has to come out. And then Hany kind of continues with her answer after that. She's like, I'm sorry. The fire alarm's just gone off. And then I realized, no, that has to stay in. That that's that's what really happened. And, you know, I haven't kind of been sued by anyone yet, but I had a lot a few people tell me that they've got to that point of the episode and they've been on the metro. And they'd actually thought alarm was going off on the metro. And they jumped up and like, what was it? What was it? And of course, it was only on the podcast. So, yeah, that that's out there. Yeah. It should be like that that, bit in the dock side of the moon, the blink I wonder when that bell start ringing, you know, until everything changes. Yeah. Okay. So in terms of, content now, and what are you really focused on? Yeah. I mean, is is anything that comes your way? Have you got it? Are you a man with a plan? If we do, yeah, if we do a bit of a zoom back, I guess, I I would say two thousand and eighteen, it was very much around, you know, getting known, getting getting, getting just getting out there, you know, and and I and I didn't I wasn't shy about reducing content. I produced two twenty episodes that year, you know, around four a week. And I I personally feel that's that's what you have to do to to get established in on social media these days. And and I I view podcasting as as a form of social media. I just think to to get the word out there. And I didn't want to bog myself down in thinking about monetization or even worry too too much about who was listening. I was just get let's get it down. Generating content. Yeah. Get it get it out there and let let let the feedback be on the content that people are consumed rather than me sort of stressing and debating everything in my own head and and never getting anything out there. So that that's pretty much two thousand nineteen in a nutshell. When I got to the end of two thousand and eighteen and kind of had a break for, you know, a week, a month or so, and had a and thought and realized, okay. Well, it was good fun. I did learn a lot, and my energy levels didn't didn't drop. I got I got to go on a couple of press trips during two thousand eighteen in that first year, went to New York, went to Austria. And, realized then, but that is sort of of two thousand nineteen, it had to change. So I had to do something different. And, it kind of fell in my lap really. It was really then thinking a lot more in terms of campaigns and and series that that would make. I guess me as a as and the channel easier to follow. But they also, I I I had a hunch that it would drive more listens as well because Say I was doing a, you know, a series on, New Zealand wine. As I did, it was the first series of two thousand nineteen, there were seven episodes in that series, and because they existed as an entity that come out in series, somebody could find one of those seven and kind of be sucked into, oh, it's a series. Let me let me listen to all seven, and and that door was open, and it's not open if you just do a a a single standalone episode. Okay. So that's, I mean, that's quite strategic, isn't it? And that requires I mean, in some ways, it's kinda logical because it's very logical anyway, but, if it's New Zealand, you're not actually flying there, presume you're introducing interviewing skews. New Zealand producers coming over for an event in London at the annual tasting. This isn't it. That's and so that's an efficient way. And I think the episodic, format, is a good one because it gets people in the habit of not having all the candy at once. Yeah. Mhmm. It's not instant gratification. It's it's a bit of instant gratification with more gratification to come if you listen in the next day or the two days. Yeah. Yeah. And, again, I just think I think there are many ways to kinda, you know, skin skin this particular can and and I, yeah, I've grown from that initial experience with, with, let's say, the the wines of New Zealand. It was it was actually really I got the push from doing the New York series because in in a week in New York, I recorded thirty five episodes. And I realized, damn, I've gotta get all of these out in one chunk because it it will just dominate the next two years of the channel if I don't. So I sort of just locked myself away for two or three weeks and just produced them all, and then they did a sort of a hold take over, and it that that was really the first time was with was with those New York episodes kind of weird. She did thirty five in the end. The thirty five in it as a series. Yeah. How did how did your audience? How did, I mean, did did the audience have a lot of stamina do they stay until the bitter end to episode thirty five? Yeah. I I haven't been in I'd I'm not sure. I think I think in hindsight as as a as a long series, you know. I wouldn't do that. I don't anticipate ever doing that again. I don't think not because I don't like the content and and and don't think don't rate New York wines and all the rest of it. I I just think it it's a lot to ask. Yeah. It's a month and a half. And, and maybe, yeah, that's where you may I've maybe made the target too big. It was actually too much. And Potentially, that could have been in seven or five chunks of seven. You know, that that would probably be how I was doing it now if I had that level of content, which is an if because, you know, I'd I'd I'm not sure if I would have the stamina to make so many podcasts in such a short period of time now. So yeah. So what's happening now then in terms of, I mean, have you settled on a formula now, in terms of content and how you present that content in terms of episodics or just one offs? Yeah. I I ideally, I will go series. For me, I think the the the ideal kind of series length, again, so that people are not getting washed away with this this sort of New York style wave. Is to have sort of five to seven, and and that can work in terms of releasing that one a day over a week. It's I think it's a lot easier to to get get someone's attention over the space of a week. And I think a week is a big enough sort of, again, back to this idea of a target to have to catch their attention if if they're looking for content in that week, they'll they'll catch you. And then even if they look back and search, they'll see those seven coming up, and it won't be overload if you they have thirty five coming up. I mean, one of the the other things that is, you know, jumping around a little bit is bringing it right up to to date here and wine to wine, you know, because I'm I'm a constant innovator. I I constant and he tried to refine it and see how it kind of feels to me. And, one of the things that I've I've been doing since I've arrived here is actually potentially stepping back from doing so many interviews here on the ground. So I've I've done in my third day here in verona, I've done four interviews, which, you know, it's not that many for me, but all four have now been edited. All four are gonna be on the yeah. So not not not not not not to kind of shame anybody that might be sitting next to me interviewing me, but but that's that's an experiment. I've never done that before. Usually, what I do, I'll go home from trips. I'll sit down. I'll kind of get over the jet lag, have a cup of tea, and then I'll open up the laptop and see what I've got. This is this is the first time I've ever done it. And it actually, it feels pretty good because it's totally current and it's totally up to date. And I I feel like there's, yeah, there's almost kind of an element of not so much live streaming, but it almost and not, of course, not live podcasting, but It almost like It's on the same page. Particular event in Friday, which is a a business to business event called wine to wine. That's it. I feel like I'm able, again, back to that point of I will always wanna bring the listener closer to what's happening, and I I feel like it will it will even be more relevant to them. I think it'll it'll work out better for wine to wine as well that the content is there now, and that somebody who listens to Stevie's podcast yesterday. Stevie Kim. Stevie Kim, they can realize, hold on. It's actually still going on. And actually, Stevie Kim mentioned that it's being live streamed on Facebook, and they can get in and watch it while it's live rather than them listening to this in in a week or three weeks time, which you know, is they'll still get the value, but but they won't have necessarily that feeling of immediacy and the feeling of involvement in the actual conference, which I think you guys have done a fantastic job of bringing of live, say live streaming making things available to bring people in. So they need to kind of know about that and I think that I think it's a really good match between, yeah, my audience knowing about that those things happening and and then turning up and tuning in no matter where they are in the world. So what's your what's your final question. What's your next, idea then or or thing that you're gonna latch on to? Yeah. I I You're so you're right. You're always trying stuff. You're not you're not you're not mister static. The, yeah, the so in nineteen, I spoke about the series, the one that I thought was gonna be more controversial than it actually really ended turning out to be was moving into other drinks categories. I I don't know that any other wine podcaster has stepped outside of wine. So I've done actually two separate category, series this year. I've done a rum series and I've done a mezcal series. So nothing whatsoever to do with wine in either of those. I I think the well, I know the the the the hook really was somebody who I, you know, greatly admire. She's now been on the podcast twice, Dawn Davies's MW. And I interviewed her around cognac because they she works for a company called the Whiskey exchange, and they produce shows as well. They produce live experiences as well as being a retail outlet. They were they had the cognac show and I interviewed her in the context of the cognac show. So still, yeah, still enough of a link to to to grape based drinks. But on the way out, literally, you know, off mic, we'd we turned off, I was walking out the door, and she said, yeah, you know, I love cognac, you know, I'm a I'm a master of wine. You know, I love all of these different drinks, but get me talking about rum. That's really where my my passion is right now, you know, working as she does in in the mainly in the spirit side of things now. And yeah, long story short, she was hugely helpful and, supportive in putting together a three part series with people who were at the absolute top of their game in the in the rum world. So she featured, and then also, sly augustin, who who runs a bar called trailer happiness in London, you know, one of the sort of premier rum bars in anywhere in the world, another gentleman called Peter Holland, who is again, a a rum blogger, a rum educator, a kind of a a rum representative out there in in in the markets, and did that and and got, I think, positive feedback. You know, I am interpreting wine. I think I'll always be interpreting wine. But, yeah, it's featured rum, it's featured Muscal and, I'm not, I'm not, you know, versed to opening up the door and doing different different types of series. Yeah. It's good for you that you're not blocked on wine. We get so obsessed by the wine bubble that we can't see beyond it and, you know, via your experiences. And I think what's interesting about you is, is your kind of restless in a very nice way. If something doesn't work, you're not you're not afraid to try something new, and also what I like about you is if it doesn't work, you don't it's not like a disaster. You just you always see it, and a positive thing. It's like, I learned something from that. And I think that's a fantastic skill that you've got. I think it's a life skill. I think so. Yeah. And and and I, you know, I will, I guess, finish in in a in a way that that speaks to probably my most asked question, which is around monetization. You know, I think it's something that's in people's mind, and they always probably kind of wonder. I mean, I had a very interesting discussion with Richard Hemming, m w on on about going on trips and, you know, all those being being paid. But at the end of the day, you can't, you can't live off trips, you know, you need to actually have that income come through. And my very latest thinking, you know, put it out there, share it is is, not to monetize my audience. You know, I I don't want to put a barrier in between myself and and the listener ever if if I cannot or help it. But recognizing that I'm producing something that has value to the business community out there, to the wine community, really. Yeah. I mean, first and foremost. Yeah. We talked about this. I think when when we first met via phone, I think Yeah. Yeah. You said that you didn't wanna, the funding would come from industry sources. And you would obviously, you know, create curate if you like, content. And, yeah, I mean, it's one way of doing it. That's it. And you gotta live. You gotta live and and I'm I think I'm I'm competing with with the magazines. You know, I'm I'm now able and confident, and it takes time, you know, to to get that confidence. And I feel like this is the right time to to be upfront with people and ask for for for for money and ask and ask for them to participate in in interpreting wine and to reach listeners and to just make that point that, yeah, you can probably pay, I guess, similar kind of sums and end up on, you know, page thirty three of a of a magazine somewhere and, you know, take a step back. Is is that the best use of your Yeah. Of your of your marketing budget, are there? Are you reaching the people you need to? Are you needing to reach people all around the world? I know I have thirty percent listeners in the UK, thirty percent in the US. A lot of a lot of wine producing regions, a lot of wine produced producers and and and countries, they wanna reach those markets. And it's like, how do you go about doing that? You've gotta, I think, have a multichannel strategy. I'm not saying I'm gonna you know, closed down magazines, but, you know, what about diverting some of that money from the magazines or from other types of media into podcasting, which I still think is woefully underserved by the industry. Yeah. Everything has a lot of space for people to get onto the field as I put it. Yeah. You're teaching grandmothers. Okay. I agree. I think, I'm a big radio fan and, I've said this a million times. I've been on the telly. It's a laborious process. Yeah. And, this is a much better medium for me personally, but just for me, in general, as a consumer of content, I'd much rather listen to the radio than watch Tanya. And I think, yeah, quick one. I've gotta get it in there, but in preparation for knowing I was coming to wine to I was gonna be, you know, speaking on the the panel with yourself. I produced a a slide deck that sets out all of the equipment that I use to to to produce interpreting wine. That's on your website. Yeah. So so so you would just head to interpreting wine dot com slash kit, k I t, and that will send you directly to this PDF. That's got blow by blow. Each of the seven components basically of my very simple, very straightforward, not massively expensive setup that I really hope through this podcast will will get somebody else out there to kind of think about as I put it coming onto the field and and playing because, you know, whilst there is. I think there is abundance out there. I think I think I can be working with with regions and boards and and, making a living off of that while there can still be other people coming up and and telling their story out there, you know, get it getting on the record and and letting people know about, you know, what's happening with wine in Romania or what's happening with wine in Texas. You know, there's there's a lot of places out there and, you know, final thought, podcasting in social media if if anybody can set up a a Facebook account and can make content for Facebook, then I I'm a firm believer they can do so with the audio experience in mind. And and again interpreting wine dot com slash kit, it needn't be a bank breaker. You know? Yeah. It's it's accessible. If you listen to this and you've got a mobile phone, then then, you know, you're already we're already sort of better off than most people of the world. I think, you know, it's not a it's not an insurmountable amount of money to save up or to invest in entering this this medium, which is, as I say, still, I think under served compared to video or blogging or Instagram. Okay. I wanna say thanks to my guest today, Lawrence Francis from interpreting wine. You're basically in a nutshell, his messages let them be podcasts. Hallelujah. It's great to admit you in the flesh. And, yeah, you're such a bubbly chap, but you got logic as well on your side. So and you also had some hard knocks. Probably slightly of your own creation, but you've learned from them. And, and what I like about you is, is you've not only learned from them, but you've always got a smile on your face. And you don't, you see yourself in the context of of something much wider. You don't see yourself as the center of it. In in an egocentric way, and that's that came through very quickly when we first spoke by phone to get and, certainly come across today that you that you're, a chat with a very generous spirit. And, so I really hope that your, your dreams come true, and they're not just dreams there, you know, that there's stuff that you've that you've done and that you were doing and that you will do in the future. So I really, really, really hope, it goes well for you. Thank you very much. Alright. Yeah. It's been a real pleasure. I think you're good. You're good. I'm fine. Listen to all of our pods on Sound Cloud iTunes, iTunes, Spotify, HimalIFM, and on Italianline podcast dot com. Don't forget to send your tweets to eta wine podcast. Love it. Yeah. Cool. How long was that? Four and a half hours.