Ep. 214 Monty Waldin interviews Tommaso Chiarli (Cleto Chiarli)

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This podcast is brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey. Native Grape Odyssey is an educational project financed by the European Union to promote European wine in Canada, Japan, and Russia. Enjoy. It's from Europe. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Montewood. And my guest today is Tomazo Cali. Tomazo's family estate is called Cleto Kiali. And you produce Lambrusco? Yes, we do. So I'm far over the family, as Monty said. Our family is the oldest, Lambrusco producer in Emilia Romania, and, especially the oldest winery in Emilia Romagna. So when was it founded? The company founded in eighteen sixty by the founder, Kleto Kiari, that that was his name. I'm now into the fifth generation in the family business. The history of our company is very linked to the history of the region, and we were one of the first businesses in the region. So what did Cleto have your great, great, great, great grandfather? What what did he do? So, Cleto sort of follow the typical Italian entrepreneurial history. He owned the enran, rec strunt under the name of, Osteria Delartiller in the center of Modena. One What is Artilleri? What is an artillery? Artilleri means, pretty much handling, weapons. Oh, an artillery. So So it's the, artillery man's, Osteria. Exactly. So he was an artillery man. Not really. Oh, okay. That was the name of Osteria. I believe he he acquired the Osteria from someone else. Okay. So he's already we can see some clever marketing. Exactly. You're one of your family traits. Okay. If, Mark, you think? He, at the time, he used to produce his own wine for the Osteria for his guests. And, we all believed that his wine was much better than his food. So he decided to close the Osteria and, oh, open a, a hundred percent, sort of winery activity. So you are which generation? I'm the fifth generation. So as you're and your parents, are they still around? My parents are are still around. My dad and uncle, own the business. My dad is looks up the commercial side of it while my, uncle is handling our vineyards and our, agricultural estates. So do you what just did your first name of your dad? Anselmo. Anselmo's my father. His brother and your uncle is? Maoroki Arli. Okay. So let's talk Lambrisco. So lambrusco, can be various colors, pink, white, or red. Which do you go for? So, yes, so this is a good point. Lambrusco is perceived by many as a single type of wine, but Lambrusco is not a wine only. It is a family of many different varietals. This varietal grow in a very narrow area that goes from modena on the southern side up to Mantova on the northern side of Amelia. There are about out, let's say, ten different Lambrusco grape varietals. We work as a Kiali family with three varietals in the area of Modena, the Salamino, which grows on the northern side of the region. The barra, again, in the northern side of region, very close to the Salamino, and the Grass Barosa on the southern side of Modena. So these names the names of these varieties of Sarah Lambrusco, no coincidence. Why Salamino? So Alamino has got his name, from, the, the, the, the, the shape of the gray punch, which looks like a salami, which is also a very typical item in, in the area, so salami is in photos is the culture of cured meats in our area is very big. So I believe, our assessor called this grape varietal salami because of its shape. So that's the salami shit shaped grape. Exactly. Of, Nebraska. Grasparosa. What does that mean? Grasparosa. It's a very particular variety. It's a dark berry, like a salamino, but differently to salamino, it's the leaves of the vineyards become extremely red during after harvest time, and that's why Graspa, which is the stems and the leaves, and rossa is the color red. That's why the name of the scrape varietal, while the sorbara, the third varietal in the north side of Modena gets his name from a a small village in the area, which is called sorbara. What is the particularity of the Solbara? Surbara. Surbara? Surbara is perhaps the most different, Lambrosco grape varietal in the area. The sorbara has a very thin skins compared to other Lambrisco grape varietals. So the color of this one is very bright, but light red. It has enough relaxed sugars naturally. What I mean by that, normally, lambrosco grape varietals have enough high sugar content and high acidity. This grape varietal is the only one that does not have a high sugar content naturally. Therefore, you cannot find this Lambrusco in a semi sweet or sweet only in a dry style. So it's like a dry well, it's a dry rosette. It's like a dry fizzy rosette, isn't it? Yeah. Sometimes people, sort of look at this wine as a rosette, but, I want to stress out that this is a red wine. Very particular red, but it's fully macerated. And therefore, it is a ripe Lambrusco. And for me, it's one of the most underrated wines in Italy. It is. It is also the Lambrusco that is helping the Lambrusco area and, most producers, gain a good reputation in, in the worldwide perhaps, because people are consumers are drinking drier than before, and this is the Lamrosco grape bridal that, as I said, fits this criteria. It has, again, a great acidity. It matches perfectly with very salty, savory food, very different cuisines worldwide such as the spices from, the eastern part of the world. So in my opinion, it is the, rusco of the future. But again, I, I urge every consumer and every person working in the trade to try all the different Lambrusco grape varieties. And what I think is very important for, Lambrusco is the fact that, each one of us can find its own favorite Aito, and this is very important from a producer perspective. So you're saying that because in a Lambroosca, we, we kind of think, oh, it's just one type of wine that you can put in one little box. But what you're saying is apart from the fact we have Sabara, which is a very light mother type of Nebraska. Yeah. But you have the the the red Lambruschka as well, but they're all incredibly different Exactly. Depending on which variety that they're made from. So throughout a full meal with different sort of food pairing context, you can find the right Lambruschka. Okay. So if we say, well, I've I've come to you, I've actually had dinner at or stay with your dad. And he's one of the funniest people I've ever sent out. He really is hilarious. Okay? I can see you got the same Not with me, but No. No. You got the same kind of smart. You you I could see that you're cut from the same cloth. So if we have, I come to your dad. I come this time you're gonna well, I'm having dinner with you, and you want to show me your whole range of wines, and you're gonna choose the food pairings. Yeah. So let's just go through. What are what are you gonna give me for dinner and why? So if we would like to stick the area, which I think is the the most important way to go. It's to start with a platter of cure meat moving from, prosciutto Di Parma to Martodala from Bologna and Salami. With this, kind of salty cold cuts. The sorbara is, for me, personally, the ideal, wine to bear. The acidity helps washing away the savory of of the cured meats, the salt that these cured meats have. We can move them to, sort of, a field, egg pasta, such as ravioli and tortellini. Here, you can move to a dry style, Grosparosa, which has a higher content of tannins, and therefore, can really sustain, the the the heavier and take your characteristics of, field pasta of the area. For a second course, we do not have, just the main in Italy, as you know. We have, a starter, a first course, a second course, for the second course, we would move to a softer, dark style, and rusco, maybe a salamino, or a blend between salamino and grasparosa. What I mean by softer is with the higher residual sugar, around eighteen, twenty grams. And this would be ideal with, the boiled meats of the area, coming both from pork and, beef. And for a dessert, we have the the Switzerland, which is not seen worldwide as a great wine, but when done in the right way with only natural sugar it is a great wine, either to pair with, for example, hard, savory cheese such as parmesan, and, sort of, decorino from another region, or also with, desserts, sort of, a charitard, this kind of, very savory and and the sweet, desserts. Super. So you have various estates as well. Do you make any, I mean, in terms of your land holdings, when we talk about Lambrusco, we kind of think it's an industrial wine. It's just miles and miles and miles of grapes, a vineyard with with heavily laden with grapes. It all gets chucked into big tanks and munched up and spat out as as Lambrochka. But you have different estates with different terroir, and you your family feels that very strongly that the terroir is very much linked to the type of Lambrusco Verati that you're planting and and growing in that area. Is that correct? Yes. So let's just go through some of your your single vineyards, if you like. Okay. In two thousand and one, we, built a brand new winery under name of our founder, Cleto Kiali. So our our family business, started as I said in eighteen sixty. We had an historic seller up to two thousand and two. Then we constructed a new winery for the product of high quality, Lamrusco. In this winery, we believe that in order to have this quality in our Lambrusco's, we have to pick and grow the right varietals in the right areas. Therefore, we've been owning over a hundred hectares of vineyards in the best DOC areas of Lambrusco. And we have three main states for the three river items. The Sotsigali in the north of Modena, we have around thirty hectares This is, a land between two rivers, they're reaching sand and silt. And the names of the rivers are one of them is the Sekiya, right? Sekiya and Panaro. These are the two rivers. So this is sandy well drained, flat. Drained. Yes. Be the need to water the vineyards in summertime, despite the heat and the lack of rain in the area. While on the southern part of Modena, close to the Clinto Cali one area, we have, the tenuta Chaldini, which is a single vineyard of grass here, we have much more of a rocky soil, quite a bit of clay. And, this is where we grow the Grassparosa, the single vineyard Grassparosa, which, we produce them for aha. Okay. So when you talk about clay, we're thinking, normally clay soils, you can have quite aggressive or hard tannins. Is that the case with your Lambrusco there or not? It is the case. So the Grasparosa is the most tanninic type of Lambrusco varietal. And therefore, it it this grows in this in the southern part of modern art, as I said, there is, a lot of gravels and clay. So do you pick that up in the wine though? I mean, it's when we think again, this preconception, you know, Lambrusco is how it's always soft and blancmange like, like, you know, candy lost. So what what we like to say is that all Lambrusco varietals have that surname Lambrusco for a reason. So they have common characteristics, so light bodied, a high acidity, a good natural sugar content. And, this is present all saw in the Grasparosa. The Grasparosa in addition to this has the tannins. So in my opinion, this is a very extremely well balanced wine. It starts off extremely fruity, and then you got the dryness from the tannins at the end. So it is a very, very full friendly wine, easy to pair with spicy food, easy to pair with very salty types of of food. And the balance between the tannins, and the residual sugar is great in this grape variety. The area. It is the area where we grow some Grasparosa vineyards. This is, an area very close to the Chaldini, to the Grasparosa state. And, we have we grow also the only native white berry in the area, which is the pinolletto. I haven't talked about the pinolletto because the pinolletto, it is not part of the Lamruzco family, but it is a very local white grape. And it's one to look out for for fashionistas because it's It is. Starting to get a little bit of movement behind the pinolletto. There are some markets such as the UK, which are embracing this wine, quite well. It is one of the most growing wines in the, Italian retail market, which is a good sign for the area. So what are typical flavors of pineolletto? White wine. Penolletto is extremely floral. It has, in order to appreciate a good pineolletto, it has quite a high residual sugar. So we're going towards an extra diet type of pineolletto. But again, it has again this acidity, which is common in the area given by the soil, which is very important for this wine, very balanced. And in my opinion, it is, what makes it unique is the, the floral notes that you find in these wines is extremely rich, the taste sticks on the palate for long. So what sort of food would we be looking for there as a as a as a good match? So pinoleto, traditionally, it is consumed. Again, I don't want to be boring with the the charcuterie. So the cured meat we do not have a culture of seafood in the area. Although it would be very interesting to have it with the fried frito miso. So fried squid, fried prawns, this kind of rich, and and salty, seafood type. So I think this is a good pairing, and, of course, course, there is, a percentage of consumers in the it locally that do not does not like Lambrosco, and that's what they drink. So, yeah, we've you should launch a competition, the Clito Cali pinolletto, food matching competition, you know, many years who comes up with the best food matches, something like that. Yeah. I'm afraid they like the food more than the wine though. Well, you like food more? Okay. That's They like. They like. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I'll cut all that up. Okay. So that's your so tenuta Belvedere in Bellevue. That's that's your vineyard's done then, I guess. Yeah. So how do you see the future of of Lambrusco, the, the perception, probably in the mind more of people in the wine trade than in, than than consumers? How can you get people to drink more, Lamrosco, or appreciate Lamrosco, I should say. So, I believe, in the past, twenty years, there has been a movement, for the, requalification of this wine. In particular, as proudly producers, we believe to, to have been one of the examples of this, Renaissance of Lambrusco. In two thousand and eight, we started getting the Trebiquiri from Rosa for the first time in the history of Lombrusco. This year That's the three glasses of Walbertsdale. There's much coveted thing in Italy. Last year, we were awarded, in the top hundred wines of wine spectator for two thousand nineteen, again, very historical for, in the history of Lambrusco. And I believe, these sort of achievements gained by us, but also from other colleagues. It is the way to to bring back the image of Lambrusco in terms of the trade. For consumers, this is up to the trade to sort of convey our work and our efforts to consumers. We see that there is a growing interest in this high quality type of Lambrusco in specific markets, such as the US, Japan, the northern part of Europe, but we see that there is still out there a less good Lambrusco that, is been, offer to consumers nowadays, but we also believe that this is a word that is going to end, in the future no matter no matter how much, some some other producers. But we we believe there's going to be a bright future for this, Lambrusco, but for the other Lambrusco, there's not going to be any future. Okay. The really okay. You mean, there's slightly more sophisticated style of Lambrusco. And I I think it's a great, I mean, I'm a big always been a big fan of Lambrusco and people really don't believe me when I say that. And if you live in Italy and spend a lot of time in Italy, which I do, and you get a lot of you get given a lot of rich food, often, and often you are eating when it when it's either been hot or is about to be hot or very, very warm, and you want something that's refreshing, and digestible cuts through that fattiness of the food, and doesn't make you fall over or fall asleep. It's an absolutely stupendous wine obviously, it has various variations, but, as a category, it's it's a it's a wine I've always really liked. Honestly, people don't believe in it. So how could you, you know, wine expert, mister sophisticated blower? Go for Lambrusco. So because it's a great wine. Reason. We're here to to convince these people about Yeah. I don't know. It's about greatness of Lumbus. Yeah. I think I trying to convince people of any is it can be really, really hard. I think I think you just it's easy for me to say be patient because you have a company to run and you gotta make ends meet at the end of the month, but I think sometimes maybe when things are forced down people's throat, they don't really appreciate them. It's just, I guess, getting more people to the region and trying these wines with the local food, so that they can search, you know, what? These this is preparing that works really, really well. The alcohol levels are are very moderate. We look at some red wines now. Fifteen, sixteen alcohol. Yeah. Lambrusco fits those worldwide trends in the moment. People are drinking more sparkling. They're drinking less wine with the with the less alcoholic content. They're they're drinks dryer, and we have a very good dry Lambrusco portfolio in the area. So I believe we fit the criteria of, at the moment and, of the future. So It's funny. Your dress light. I mean, if you walked if I if you walked in now or you have just walked in anyway. And so and Monsters, I guess your occupate. I say you're an insurance salesman, or something. You know, you got the time, all the rest of it. And I think, I think maybe also, like, I know that he sells Lambrusco. I'll be like, no. He doesn't sell them. He's he's he's he's straight for that. He needs. But, I suppose that's, I don't know why I've said but, I'm not saying that you should dress up in. We're gonna be coherent. Yeah. Yeah. I sound like good, high quality, Lamrozco. Yeah. Anyway, I wanna say thanks to my guests today. Thomas Ochiali. Thanks a lot, Montei. From Kletalkali. It's been, lovely to hear you describe your wines. And, actually, they come from because people don't offer often associate Lambrusco with any kind of terroir. They think it all just comes out of one big tank, which is not the case. And I wish you and your family every success and say hi to your dad for me. Thanks a lot. I will. He gave me very he almost gave me indigestion because he made me laugh so much during a dinner. He's got some great stories to tell. It's a very funny guy. And I could you've got a cheeky smile as well so I can see where you get it from. So, obviously, there's a genetic thing going on, but, very nice to meet you, Thomas. I wish you were seriously. We were enthusiastic. My pleasure. A very enthusiastic and, wish you ever success you just, thanks a lot. This podcast has been brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey, discovering the true essence of high quality wine from Europe. Find out more on native grape odyssey dot e u. Enjoy. It's from Europe. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.