Ep. 277 Matilde Poggi

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Lefrage, and then a little bit about the Federation of Independent wine growers in Italy. If that's okay? Very good. So why first of all, Lefrage, what why the name? Lefrage means in our like, strawberries. So when I started winemaking in, nineteen eighty four, this winery, it was a family one. And, we did not know where this name came from. But then, when it is very curious, because when I stopped using herbicides, so I turned to organic, it was two thousand eight, three years later as I saw that these vineyards which is giving the name to the winery, which is a vineyard in front of the winery, is, fall is in, summer, late summer with, wild strawberries. So I guess that this name, which was the name, people named gave this name to the to the vineyard in the past. I think, I guess it comes from these white strawberries. It's amazing that how influential a changing farming practice has has become, and you're obviously, it's given the name to your to a winery. It's like these little plants were just waiting for the moment that they could come back up again without the herbicides. And, it's a great, well, I think it's a great story, and it's a real story as well about, the power of conventional farming and the even stronger power of of natural farming. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. So when you were, when you was a a younger well. Were you involved at all in in the family business, or were you just, studying all the time? We come, actually, the family comes from Geneva. And, we moved to Verona province in, nineteen eighty one. Sorry. Eighteen eighty one. And, since nineteen sixties, the family, my father's family was, been defying and, bottling, the wines with, another brand name. So I remember when I was a child. So we we lived, all my life. I lived where I am now, so in the countryside. And, I remember when I was a child, although after school, in the afternoon, because at that time, there was no no school in the afternoon just in the morning. And, we went, harvesting, and then, during the holidays, we helped the know, we, maybe leveling and making sides. Everything was made up by hand at that time. So and I really liked, going to the vineyards, and I was very much impressed on how these the vines are changing, during this four seasons. So and every year, they are coming. They are starting again. Of course, this is normal for every plant for every tree. But for me, it was was a child. So I was very much impressed, and I like very much seeing how season how vines are changing during the season. So and then, I started economics, so I was not studying anything related tugger culture. And then, when I was twenty two, I decided to challenge with winemaking. And so I started this own brand, La Frage, vilifying the grapes of my father. When you started doing that, must have been quite a moment of truth for you in your life. You know, can you do it? Can you make wine? Can you make this a commercial success? Was it very difficult initially? Yes. Yes. It is. It was because, but it's still difficult because we're with wine with wine, I say always that it is a business, a very long term business. So you must have projects with long term, and, because, you know, you come from a you start from a vineyard and a vineyard last for about forty five years. And then, every year, you have to challenge with something new because every year, new grapes, new season, new climate, new weather conditions. Every year, you have to to look at the grapes to try to see the plants to see the vineyard how it is. And, you must challenge with it. So you must take the best from these grapes, but I year is different. So thirty five harvest I've done so far and, nothing. Nothing at all because every year, I have to learn, and I'm still learning. And so in a normal job, in another job, in an add a so thirty five years is a lot of time, but in wine, it's really nothing. Okay. Let's talk about some of the grape varieties you work with. You have a white wine called Camporngo. Why is it called Camporngo? And why is it, what does it make from? Comparingo is made from, Gaganaga. So comparingo is the name of the of the vineyard, and, Gaganaga is the grape, which is an indigenous grape of verona, very much used, to make, a so obvious or very famous appellation. In my area, I am close to Lake Garden. There was always some organic grapes in the vineyards, but they there was a small amount. So maybe fifteen percent, and it was, verified together with red grapes to make badalina, which is a red wine. And, I decided in nineteen. My my father planted some chardonnay, and, I took it off, and I planted some Gaganaga in nineteen ninety two because I wanted to have a wine, white wine made with indigenous grapes. I'm very happy with it. It is a typical Gagan Canada. Although our soil, which is more in it. So it's a lot we have a lot of stones, in our vineyards. It's very different from, soave, which is more of a canal. So it is a typical Gaganaga, although it's much different from soave. So Does it is it more full bodied? Is it lighter? Has it got high residity? No. It is I think that Gaganaga, in soave is more, more rich, maybe. Our us mine is more or straight on and a little bit more, higher acidity and no sugars at all because I like very much drywiring. So Okay. So what You talked about lake garda. What influence does that have on the on the vineyards in terms of maturation and humidity and heat? Is, lake garda is the biggest lake in Italy and one of the biggest in in Europe, but it's very deep. So it's, the microclimate over there. Although, we are in the north of Italy. And sometimes when I come to the US, people, when I say, I'm coming from Lakeada, people say, have been to Laco Majoriecoma, but, this is, totally another story because, Lago de Gardo is a microclimate in the southern part of Lago Gardo. Very Mediterranean. And you have, the flowers, and the plants. The med mediterranean plants, even though we're in Northern Italy because of it's because of this big body of water that creates a wall. Yeah. Because it's very deep and, so it's absorbing a lot of wall during summer, and it is releasing very slow during wintertime. So microclimate over there is very particular, and, it's a warm area. Although I am, in a maybe in the coolest climate, coolest area of Badalina and much more to the north of the area. And it is also very windy because, we are, at the end, we are very close to River Adige Valle. And from the river Adle, there is a lot of wind coming from the north and bringing, fresh air and cool air. So is, influenced I am from the lake and the warmth of the lake and from, the mountains and this breeze, this wind, which is, every day there in the morning from four or five o'clock in AM to ten, eleven AM. So it's very there is always air going on in which is very important. I am organic, and this is having all this wind. It is very easy to be organic for there. Okay. You make, what's called, Carreto, Badulino Carreto. Rodon is the name of the wine, and it's made, I think, from Corvina mainly in Rondinela. What is that? Is it a red? Is it a deep rosier? A light rosier? What is it? It's a very light Jose. And, this is very traditional in our area to make, Jose wine. And, actually, Badolino Carreco is the biggest appellation for Jose in Italy. And, we make it with the eighty percent Covina twenty Rondinela Sanier with just six hours in contact. Do you ferment them together or separately? Separate because they grow so they wipe, at a different time. Normally, there is a ten days difference between Covina and Rondinella ripening time. So you pick Covina first? Yeah. And then Rondinella? Yes. So what what are the typical flavors of Corvina? What does it give? Does it give body and black fruit or andrade in a light with red fruit? How does it work? Covina is between among the two. Covina is much more considered is considered the best. So it gives more turnings, more spicy, and, it seems a little bit more difficult to cultivate because, has a very small bunches but close. And, the the skin is very thin. Yeah. So it's a little bit more difficult to cultivate, but, it's giving this spiciness to both Jose and raw red, which is for me very interesting So I like that very much. And, maybe Renina is giving more the the forty and some salt to the wines. And I really like this to gray so they're giving, very, very nice ones I like because they are light. The rosette is light, but very straight, very bright acidity. And, of course, no sugars left. And, Do you drink that with food or on its own? Are we doing it a lot, as a operative or also with food? It pairs very good with, everything, hybrid issues with the tomatoes. And I like it a match with pizza. Okay. With lots of with lots of tomatoes on top. What about the, you make a red badolino from the same Corvina Rondinela blend. They're both finna verified apart, I think. What do you drink that with in Bartolino? Do you have it? Is it wine for being sort of light and fruity on its own, or does that also pair well with food? I think that Badolino, I always say it is like, a wine, you you you can drink it, with nearly everything, except for, game or, very expensive. I mean, with, yes, very spicy meat is not so much. But otherwise, you can have it with pasta, with soups, white meat, fresh cheese, and also with fish. And I suggest always to drink it a little bit cooler. So not say, like, white or or say, but, fifteen degrees, sixteen degrees child's use, which means, if you are at home, just, half an hour in fridge, and then it perfect. Because if it is is a line with a very delicate tannies, so not too much tannies. And so, if you're doing it a little bit bit cooler, it is, you must you can appreciate much more the spicy and the four eighty. So So that's great. If you're a sommelier and you've got Badalino red on the menu, you know exactly what I recommend to your clients when they're choosing their food. So you also do a Badalino classico called Boral Grande. What is Boral Grande? Is it the name of a place or a fantasy name? No. It's the name of the vineyard and Brawler in our dialect means, what the French say claw. So a vineyard closed, so with a a wall made with stones. And, Broad Grande means it is a bigger, the bigger claw we have. This is a single vineyard wine, Corvina always and on an All as majority of Covina, Toronto. And I put it in. I've been notified it separately since, two thousand eleven because I've seen that this vineyard is has a may has always some very good grapes to make the the red badolino not Jose. And that's why I decided, to keep it separate. And, then it is vinified, like, our badolino, but then it is aged partially in a big orc, forty hectoliters Oak, old one, so neutral. And, since two thousand eighteen, which is not, yet was, vinified and aged just, in concrete. Okay. Now you're a member of, Phoebe. What is Phoebe? Phoebe means, Foebe. Italianaioli independente. So it is the association of independent wine goers all over Italy. We are now one thousand three hundred members, and I am the president since, two thousand thirteen. We are making a lobbying. So at the institutional level, we are stakeholders. So we bring the voice of a small independent wine growers. So we try to grow the wine growers are independent because they have. They are on vineyards. They verify their grapes, they bottle the wine, and then they sell, directly. So personally, they are go they are bottles. Normally, they are family, small family wineries, and, artisanal, they make artisanal wines. And Phoebe was born in two thousand eight to bring this boy the voice of this independent wine goers to our ministerial and also in Europe to the European uh-uh government because everything in Europe regarding culture is decided at European levels. So it's very important for us to be among inside the confederation of independent wine growers together with other eleven countries, in Europe, which have independent wine growers. And we make lobbying in, Europe as well. So what successes have you had with, changing European Union agricultural policy regarding smaller producers? Whether they're wine producers or even, I don't know, producers of milk or whatever. It's very important to to try, I I always say that we must be there when the law is going to be decided because sometimes it is enough to change one comma and bring it, to the next world to change the the law and give evidence to these wineries, which, are very particular because we don't buy bulk wines and we bottle as soon as the market is going to ask for it, but we start from our vineyard. So we we must bring, and we we want to be protected when we make our job, which is to bring the identity of is sterile, to the bottle. And, we want to be protected. Sometimes Europe decided to make some to make some lows, which put the small artisanal producers out of the market. This is what we don't want to disappear. So what kind of rule are you talking about when you say that laws have bought edicts have been passed that have not helped the smaller independent grow as their normal farmers or wine growers or fruit growers, what sort of thing is are you are you angry with or angry about? We always have to fight against the bureaucracy because bureaucracy for small wineries or big or big wineries is the same. The paperwork is the same. And for big winery, it's much easy because normally they have, some, people working for them, and they are just, engaged to to work, to, to make bureaucracy. For us, normally we speak, when you say, when you're independent, one grower, you must think about, one person or one family, which is, where everybody is making some work, inconvenience. And then going to the cellar, and making some wine. And then in the night today on the in the evening, they have to answer to emails and, collect the orders and, speak with the consumers, and then, deliver the wine, and then come going back to the vineyard and this is so we we ask it to be a little bit help to consider that these wineries have, other requirements. I mean, then, and the other needs not require governments have other needs compared to the big ones. We we have also a logo. And when you see this logo of our which is, on the labels on on the caps of our wires. It is a man bringing a basket of grapes on the shoulders. And, in the shadow, it becomes a bottle. That means that it is a man, making. His himself is making everything from the grape to the bottom. So I hope that in the future, this logo, which will be much more recognized from the market. I hope that people will buy when they see that? Well, I hope so too. I wanna say thanks to my guest today, Matil Poggi, for talking about Leferage and for Italy's association of independent wine growers, and what Mittal has been talking about this idea of the bureaucracy. It is a it's almost like a disease, this, the amount of paperwork, especially in Italy, regard, and you get my partner audits lots of agricultural enterprises. That's one of hers. She's a Alisa. And she can have, literally, I can see five hundred pieces of paper on her desk, two or a ream of paper, all print offs. And that's just one estate for, like, one month, one month, maybe the Agree tours, and they've had some guests, and they've had to buy some stuff, and they've sold some wine, and then they had to track to broken this, had to get an invoice for that, and then the diesel for the it's unbelievable. I mean, our house is full of documents, so I see that firsthand. I'm not making any of this up. This is true that our house is full of pieces of paper. And, and it's just overwhelming. Yeah. And there's also another issue which is, desert of the wild man. Yes. And we are, but we if you have a a winery, you you must do that. So Yeah. You have to. Another issue, which we have to consider in a European level is a distant sales. And that means that sometimes selling, normally selling a pilot to US is much more, much more easy than selling it in Europe. Because in Europe paperwork is much more important. So this is really absolute. But, also, we, we asked her in Europe to have a low, for distant sales because selling wine from, the winery to private consumer all over in Europe, which should be like it is the low. So it should be, really our internal market. It's very difficult. So here, big wineries have a better life because they yes. They are imported all over it all over Europe so they can sell. And, if you have a private consumers coming, tourists coming, visit your winery, they buy wine. It's okay. Then if they go to their country, they they would like to buy some more wine, and you are not exported in this, European country. Well, that's kind of ironic because we've got this big debate at the moment about the European Union, which is kinda like the United States of Europe. And the idea would is that so we've got to grow in this case in Northern Italy and maybe somebody in Holland or Germany sent an email and money and so it can have a case of your, whatever, Bardolino. And I would just say you'd let you take it to the post office, whatever, and and and send it away, and you're saying that's not actually easy as that. There's a lot more paperwork just to get that box of wine from Italy to to Holland. Yeah. And it is much expensive because you have to pay somebody to make this paperwork because we are small. We can do that. We we are not allowed to do that on ourselves, ourselves. So, we have to pay a lot of money to other companies to make this paperwork for us, so which is because we every country. Because it's an alcoholic beverage, because it's alcohol. Yeah. Because there is excise duties, and, every country in Europe has a different way. Tariff. Yeah. Terriff. Alright. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, that's thought. Okay. So that's interesting. So I, anyway, wish you every success at all with your with your vineyard where you live is a beautiful place. It's very bucolic. And, it feels really natural. I mean, that in the in the widest sense of the word, it's not a winery that's been spruced up for to for fancy coach parties or fan fancy journalists. It's a real it's a step back in time, but in the best sense of the word. And, the Phoebe organization, the independent wine growers of Italy have been very you're having you as the, as the leader and president, you know, you articulate, your coherent, your passionate, and also you, your personal story shows that you're absolutely authentic in what you do. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Italian wine podcast. Until next time. I'm Monte Walden, and I'll leave you with an installment of everybody needs a bit of Shenza. Essentially for Italy International Academy community members send their questions for Via chief scientist Artilio Shenza to answer to the best of his ability. Cheers. Good morning, Vietnam. Good morning, Vietnam. Good morning, Italian podcast. He just told me that it's are you recording this? Yeah. He's just told me we're doing it's like our style is good morning Vietnam. I don't know what that means, but Let's call Susana Gold from New York City. Here we go. Hey, Susana. Susana Gold from New York City. It's Stevie Kim here. Remember? Hi, Steveie Kimma. Of course, I remember. How are you? What were you thinking? You were you said you were going to call in at, like, I don't know. You live in o'clock. That's like four o'clock your time or five or whatever. Right? Yeah. I did. You did? Oh, come on, Jacob. She said she called. I'm gonna have to fire Jacob. I just hired him and I don't have an alternative. So he's gonna have to stick around for a bit. Listen, I'm here with, professor Mika. Are you still doing the M W program? Silos? No. No, you, you, you, you. No. No. No. Not not now. Not now. Okay. You're on pause. You're on pause. Listen. So I'm going to, Okay. No. No. But my Capisheca, American or no? No. No. Okay. Okay. The. Quindi. Okay. Okay. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it community. Donald had a farm. Listen. Listen. Susanna. You know? Basically, the the the the the the the the the the the the in Italian. So volcanicipuri, it is on a or latina, or or it's a really volcanicii. Equivalent opinion. Taburhazi, And so, the positive the questi the questi January, lens the. If you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, well, the that's to the question. Now you understand why he's called a flishman. Right? Mom, my man. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Listen, do you want to repeat your questions also for listeners in English? You had two questions. Those were I asked those two questions. Do you want me to ask them again? Can you say that? Yeah. In English. Do you want me to say it in English? And he's gonna answer me again in English? No. Just repeat the question in English. Sure. We can do this, like, for ten minutes. You've said in English. I say it in Italian, you say English? Okay. Just repeat your question, your two questions in English for our listeners, please. Susana Gold. Of course. So my first question was what was the relationship between Chintilla from Molize and other grape varieties from South Southern Italy. I've heard that there's a relationship between Cynthia and a grape in Spain in Harris. Is that true? And your second question was? My second question was, everyone's talking about volcanic soil lately. And what does it bring to the glass? What do we find in the glass? And I was wondering if volcanic soils change a lot from area to area. I imagine they do, but I'm not sure, why. And are there any that are similar? Right. So you had mentioned the for example. Okay. Alright. So, I see it. Yeah. We're planning, Noystiamo. I see it. Yeah. We're planning, So we'll give you more information about that and via community. That's somewhat very brother in October. Okay. Shui just pressed them. Okay. Okay. So that was Susanna Gold, calling in from New York City very early in the morning. And, thank you, for listening to Italian One podcast. The everybody needs a bit of Shane stuff. You see Jacob now you understand why I couldn't just do the translation like simultaneous translation, like, right? You understand that. Now is that clear to you? I cannot do this. Okay. Follow us, don't forget on Facebook and Instagram and and tweet us as well. That's at Italian wine podcast. 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