EP. 421 Ian Harris

I've I I think I've turned it off, but but it's all a bit, it's all every time it does, it pings. Like, I, obviously, I've got my sound on, so I can hear you guys. Did you get a message from one of your colleagues saying do not go on the podcast? Whatever you do it's gonna end your career? That's a good that's a good shout. Yeah. Did you hear that ping that just came up? I did. That was another warning. Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monty Walden. My guest today is Ian Harris. Ian is the chief executive of the WSE, which is the wine and spirit education trust. Ian, welcome. Very pleased to have you on the show. It's delighted to be here. Let's work a missed star. You have an incredibly, interesting, career. How did you how did you get into wine? How did you end up where you are? Well, yeah, you're interesting is a is a good way of describing it. I mean, it's been a really enjoyable career, so far, it's thirty sorry, forty three years. And, yeah, I I I started because, I did French at university, and my intention when I when I went to university was to become a teacher. So it's slightly ironic that I've come full circle into an organization that is involved in education, but I lived in as part of my degree course, the third year of the four year course was spent abroad And I was very keen to continue playing rugby. So my tutor said, well, you better apply for a position down in the southwest of France, which I did. And so I ended up being an assistant teacher at a school just south of Bordeaux. Got involved in got involved in wine as in tasting it because and and I had a real sort of light bulb moment that made me realize that this is the industry I wanted to get into. One of my fellow teachers at the school invited me for dinner, one of her friends who owned a vineyard in so-turn. I went along to this, dinner. This is about, sort of, three weeks into being into arriving in France, and it was just the most wonderful experience of my life, arrived at this vineyard it was October still still quite warm. Fantastic dinner. We went out into the vineyard, and the the vineyard owner cooked entrepot steaks over, a fire made from the vine cuttings, which were still lying in the vineyard. We went back into the into the the house at about midnight and had some so turn with dessert, which completely opened my eyes to the world of wine. And that morning, sorry, the next morning, I got back to my apartment. I wrote to my mom and said, I'm not too sure about education. The wine trade seems far more fun And that was it. Here I am, four decades plus later. Okay. So, so, basically, we're sort of hands on experience in, in wine that made you that that shaped your has shaped your career. Yeah. It was, really. And when I when I would look to see how you get into the wine business, because it was something I didn't really know much about, it was a friend of mine who I played cricket with who who had an account with, a couple of the fine wine merchants in the West End of London who said to me, well, I I can bring along a priceless with an address and a phone number, and why don't you just write to them and ask if they've got any jobs? And that's exactly what I did. I wrote one letter to one company as a result of which I had one interview. And at the end of one hour, I was offered a job, which I took very lowly job working the sellers of, of of a west, a west end wine merchant, but it got me it got my foot on the ladder. So I didn't get in through a graduate trainees scheme or anything like that. Who was the wine merchant? It was a company called Christopher and Company who sadly no longer exists they their proud boast was that they were the oldest wine merchant in London so old that the their records had been burnt in the great fire of London, so they didn't know quite how old they were. But had if that was true, that would have made them older than Berry Brothers who currently claimed to be the oldest wine merchant in London. So you obviously see you got into it through the sort of, atmospheric side, the love of it, and then you're getting into the business side You did have quite a interesting career working obviously working for that particular wine merchant, but then you worked for a multinational, which was that? And how did you get into involved with them? Yeah. That was Seagram. So Seagram, big multinational wine and spirit company based in America originally founded in Canada, and Seagram was one of the top four multinational wine and spirit companies. And after ten years working in the in the sort of traditional wine side of of life, by then, I was, what, thirty two. And I thought, actually, I really do need to get big company experience. So I went to an agency, and I was, and I was on the sales side, so I was able to basically put myself up as potential national account manager. So I I was interviewed by one company called Hedges and Butler, which is part of Bass, the big brewer. And then in between one interview with them and the second interview, the agent see put me through put me up for a job with Seagram, and I had a first interview, second interview, and third interview with Seagram. So I joined Seagram as, as a national account manager looking after one of their biggest accounts, which was, IDV, which was the forerunner to what's now De Edgio. International Distillers and Vinton. Indeed. Indeed. Yes. All those names are a real blast from the past. Yeah. Some people listening to a lot of people listening to this book. In their day. Although, there were sort of household names if you had anything to do with the with the liquor trade. So before your current job, you taught, the spirit sections of the diploma at the Wine and Spirit Education Trust, how did you jump from from, the kind of the shop floor, the the, you know, pounding the pavement and calling on people to buy your to buy your kit, so to speak, whether it's spirits or wine. How did you get into the into the educational side? Well, it was it was more that, I was only on the sales side for about a year and a half at Seagram. I then moved into the marketing team as, brand manager on Martel cognac, because I spoke fluent in French, so I'd got some marketing experience in my previous role. So so I came out of the sales sales side and as you said pounding the pavement. So I became a bit of a product expert on cognac because I was, I was running the brand in the UK and then moved into a global role with Martel, which was owned by Seagram. And I just thought I knew a fair bit about Coniac. So I approached the WCT. This is back in nineteen ninety to say, if ever you need someone to teach about Brandy in general, but con cognac in particular, give me a shout. I think I know quite a bit about it. And a couple of weeks later, I got a letter in those days, back saying, would you we've got a vacancy for someone to teach about spirits on diploma. Would you be available to do it? So I did. So it was it was again a sort of fortuitous letter at the right time. So I started teaching the Spirit side of the diploma from nineteen ninety pretty much every year until, until Seagram was taken over in two thousand one with the exception of the two years when I was working in France, on the global Martel job. So it was a sort of natural fit, really, that I knew knew knew a lot about cognac still do, and it was an opportunity for me to pass that on. And I, as I said at the very beginning, I originally wanted to be a teacher, so it came it came fairly naturally to me. I was one of your students, by the way. God. Yeah. I mean, but I've been I've been waiting to let you know that, like, how long can I let him go before I before I Well, I I'll tell you what, Monty, the the acid test is did you pass? I did. Well, there you go. So that means I must have been a really good teacher. You were. You were fantastic. Still still still remember. Oh, that's that's very kind of you to say so. No. Yeah. And I'm glad you you've only just told me that. Yeah? Okay. But, Okay. So, ne what was the next step then? Well, I'm I'm well, when Seagram was taken over by, ironically, De Diadio, which was a company that that I knew pretty well. So Seegron was taken over by Diadio and Purner regarding two thousand one, I was a director of Seagram UK, and we were told very early on in the takeover process that Purner Ricardo UK who were taking over our business unit wouldn't require the services of, many, indeed, if any people from Seagram, and certainly not the directors. So, I knew quite early on that I was gonna be made redundant by, the the new owners of Seagram. So I started looking around to see what I should do. I was forty six All my friends in the business said, oh, you'll have no problem. You know, everybody knows you. You've got sales experience. You've got marketing experience. You'll you'll just you'll just walk into another job. Well, the phone wasn't exactly ringing off the hook with job offers. And then I found out that the role of chief exec of the WSTT was due to was gonna come up and fail, probably pretty much around the time that I was gonna be made redundant. So I just started the ball rolling and started to talk to one of the board of trustees because the WCT obviously is a charitable trust. And started the ball rolling, and I had an interview in was it just before Christmas, so December twenty two thousand one was offered the job in January two thousand two and started. In April two thousand two, which is pretty much the time that Seagram was being taken over. So, again, all the stars align for me. I'm I've that's a bit of a facet of my life. I see always seem to be in the right place at the right time. Yeah. But you make your own light pass then. That's the trick. But did they see you both, obviously, as an excellent communicator, you know, for for whoever, you know, whether you're communicating with sales people or or lesser members of the wine trade just getting into their first job maybe in having to do the WSTT exams are almost sort of under duress, but it was not just your communication skills. It was also your your business skills, I would imagine, that were were sort of like a perfect fit for them. Don't be moderate. Well, yeah, I must say. It's a very good question. I I think I'm the thing that Clinch it. I think for for for me and for the people who gave me this job, and it's the most wonderful job in the world is that I am absolutely passionate about the power of education either Well, both for people who work in the industry who want to better themselves, but also for the industry as a whole, because the more people understand about wines and spirits, whether they're consumers or the person selling it or promoting it at the point of sale. The more people understand about the about the wines and spirits, which they they're gonna consume, the more they'll be prepared to pay, the more they'll be prepared to experiment. So I my big soapbox when I joined the WSTT, and the reason why they gave me the job in the first place was that it felt I could convince the the global industry about the value of education and treating education as an investment both in your people and also in your business. And one of the first things I did when I joined WSTT was to undertake a study with a company called Unwinds, who you will probably remember, Montein through a, high street high street off license chain. And we did a test with them, really, to show the value of education, and how if you've got a WCT qualification when you're working at the front end of a of a a wine shop, how you can actually trade people up and therefore put more put money on the bottom line. So that's that so that's really what my main mentra has been for the last, eighteen years since I took over. Okay. Then it's interesting what you're saying about unwinns, which was kind of, obviously people offshore won't have ever heard of them, but it wasn't the most famous of wine merchants or or chains of why merchant to the United Kingdom, which is a huge con consumer of wine and has been, for about eight eight or nine centuries. How exactly would that, trial set up? What what, you know, so that the the way the engaged exactly the the the the uptick in sales because of the the the staff being more educated and probably more infused. Yeah. I mean, what we did, we took thirty of their stores. And this is a joint initiative between us and Unwinds. I knew the marketing director of Unwinds and the time they were desperate for any sort of publicity because they were struggling. So we basically cooked up this idea. We took thirty of their stores. We split we cut them in half, with demographics. So so you had one store in a particular area with a particular demographic, and then another store in a different area, but with a very, very similar demographic, and, and then what we did. So, basically, we we took thirty stores, cut them in half. So fifteen stores on one side of the paper, fifteen on the other, both so with matching demographics, we then put one half of them through a WCT just to level one, a foundation level wine program. The others, we didn't. So we left them untrained. We measured EPOS data before and after the training had taken place. And there was a very significant uplift once people had had just a basic induction into wine that they were able to trade people up. I actually myself went into a couple of win stores just to, basically, just to sort of test the water, even before we've got the the, test in place. And I actually went into an unwin store on the south coast of England, and the guy managed to trade me down, which is a pretty cheap a pretty good achievement. I went in there saying, I I'd like to buy an Australian Shiraz, and I literally picked up a bottle of Ozzy Shearaz at about twelve ninety nine. He should have said, thank you very much, sir. Give me your money, wrap it up off you go. He said, oh, no. No. No. We've got we've got we've got one on promotion at seven ninety nine. So the the manager managed to trade me down. From a an expensive bottle to a cheap ish bottle. So that convinced me that there was a job to be done. But it was it's it's it was a piece of research that we did, and, we still use it today, to be honest, it's still one of the best pieces of research to show that education adds value to your business. Okay. It's very interesting to hear that about the the trading down. It's kind of I don't know if that's kind of like a British kind of trait where you you, you know, I I don't know why, but we are a little bit like that sometimes, but, Yeah. I mean, that's right. A little knowledge goes a long way. I mean, that's the other thing that you don't need to be a master of wine to be to have enough knowledge to be able to convince somebody to spend a little bit more on a bottle of wine or a glass of wine. How has wine education changed, at all levels, in the modern era, both in terms of, you know, we can get almost any wine from any part of the world at any time of day or night, plus, of course, social media. And the fact that we communicate with anybody across the the world at a flick of a switch. How has that affected or in enhanced the potential of wine education? I think it's enhanced it, to be honest, because the fact that there are so many wines available. And the the UK is, as you said, you know, we've been we've for nine nine centuries and more, we've been drinking we've been a great consumer of wine. And the UK is still very much the shop window of the world's wine. And if you take the number of countries making making wine, it's hellishly confusing. And I know, you know, we're talk we're we're here, on the Italian wine podcast. You know, Italy is about as confusing as it gets for a lot of people. So education actually takes on a much more important role when people are being exposed to different products from different areas, different grape varieties or different regions. If I go back to forty years ago in the UK, certainly. You know, you you went into a, an off license because most people weren't dealing with fine wine merchants, and you bought brands, you know, you bought Carida or carry on or anything else beginning with a c, which you hadn't a clue where it came from, but it's sort of tasted okay. So that was that was a real thin end of the wedge. And now we're we're we're we're at a fascinating stage of the in the wine industry, whereas there's so much really great wine coming out of different different countries that you'd never believe could even produce wine and obviously England, England's up there with the best now. So education actually takes on an even more importance when you're dealing with a market that is so complicated. I mean, in terms of, in terms of the COVID situation at the moment, how is that affected, or how is it enhanced, online learning? Well, yeah. I mean, it's it's been we we close our school in in London in on in mid March, and most of our providers around the world, including in Italy, actually, we've got we've got fifteen schools in Italy running double city courses. And as well, you'll know how hard Italy was hit. So when the lockdown happens, around the world. That really put the mockers on all classroom based courses and indeed physical examinations. We we already had an online education offering, which was pretty good, but relatively small as a percentage of our business. But what we did when lockdown happened and our business really hit hit the floor with, physical courses not taking place was we fast tracked, what's called remote invigilation. So this is where you can do an exam now from the comfort of your own home on your own device or on your own computer or on on your own phone. But because our qualifications are regulated, so they're they're in the UK framework of qualifications. They have there has to be an invigilation. You can't just do an online course, fill out the questions, press send, and ten seconds later you get the result. We have to be assured that the person doing the exam is the person who, is supposed to be doing it. So the so we fast tracked a system called remote invigilation, which is where you're filmed completing the exam. This is on the multiple choice ones, and you've and you have to set up, your phone as a second camera to check that nobody's walking in the room, that you're not cheating, you haven't got, an earphone in your ear with someone giving you the answers. So this, so this is something that we fast tracked. We were planning to introduce it later in two thousand or twenty twenty, but we we fast tracked it really because it was it was gonna be the only game in town. So in in May, we introduced it. And it's still, even now, it's about twenty five percent of the people doing a WSTT qualification are doing their exam at home in the on their own device. With their exam being invigilated by the system called remote invigilation. And it will be it will be a game changer for us going forward, particularly in countries like USA. And then we supplement we we've now gotten a complete end to end digital offering. So not just digital education and online examinations, but we've also just introduced ebooks, three months ago. So you don't even have to get get off your chair to answer the door for someone to deliver a book to you. So so it's a complete end to end digital offering, and it really does open up lots of opportunity for us, particularly in countries like USA. When you go back to that time in Bordeaux, where you sort of got the bug for the the drinks industry, did you ever, imagine you would end up being, you know, the head of the most important wine education system in the in the on the planet? No. I didn't actually. And and and to be totally honest, when I have joined the trade back in nineteen seventy seven and did one of the first things that happened was my boss sent me on a WCT course, which I did and passed it, and then did the next one and passed it, and then did the diploma, and the second attempt passed it. I'm not sure I would have wanted to be the head of WST in those days because it was pretty sleepy. It was very UK focused. Well, entirely UK focused. And it was only really when when I could see the potential for wine and spirit education that that it suddenly dawned on me that actually this would be a wonderful job to get, but certainly no, not in those early days. I was I was thinking more, to be honest, when I was thinking about going to the wine business of having my own business doing a bit of import, export, but of course now, I know that that's that's a fantastic way to lose a bucket load of money because you know the classic phrase of how do you how do you make a a small fortune in the in the wine trade, start with a big fortune. So, no, I had no no no thought that I might be heading up this, wonderful organization, which I now do. Yeah. You know, your your story about when you went, you're a young lad and you went to to Bordeaux. That's exactly how I started in the wine train as well. So because my French was terrible. And I had a I had a French lady who was my French teacher. And, she basically said, I don't wanna see you next time. I was at boarding school. She said, don't come back unless you've spent time in France. And, kinda long story short. One of my mates in he actually sat next to me in school. He said, well, listen, why don't you come down to Bordeaux because, my parents have links there and, and ended up getting a job with a courtier en Vaux, which like a middle man. Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. The the Bordeaux, the Bordeaux industry wouldn't work without them, would it? And, you know, I was mowing lawns and doing what sort of stuff. But I learned, a lot. And, you know, when you talk about the the power of education, my dad was a headmaster as well, I I just think it's great that our industry has got this educational side to itself. I I mean, a lot of members of the public love wine, and they drink it every single day, obviously, in moderation. But, being able to pass on the right knowledge at the right time and the right way to a person who could become a lifelong shareholder, if you like, in Planet Wine, I just think it's absolutely fantastic. I really do. I just, knowledge that you you earn and that you gain is never ever wasted. You I'm sure you'd agree with that. I would. Yeah. And it and it's and it's also it's it's it's a sort of socially acceptable thing to be able to talk about, isn't it? And and I'm sure you get it Monty when you're meeting friends, and they probably shove a glass in front of you in those and go, gone in smart ass. What's that? You know, he said, it's something that p everybody wants to talk about it. And it's it's it is such a a a lovely subject. And it's also a subject that is changing on a daily yearly basis. What changes do you think our industry will see in the next coming years, either at the production level or the education level or any kind of level? I think at the retail level is gonna be more, more people buying wines online. I think that's a that's a sort of twenty first century trend that people are people are gonna look for knowledge online and they're gonna buy online. The experiential of going to a restaurant or a wine maybe even a wine merchant to actually taste is still important. But the the value of education, I don't think diminishes the the, people want to know why they should pay or why they're why they're being asked to pay twenty pounds for a bottle versus a bottle that's made from the same grape variety that's half the price. But I think, I think there's gonna I think there's gonna be consolidation at the production level, certainly. So smaller producers will probably be looking to to all get together. But there's always gonna be the space for the little wine merchant who is really proactive in cells. Sorry, the little wine producer that sells through the cellar door, which effectively is is is the way that, online can happen without having to give big margins to multiple retailers. So I think the retail environment's gonna change. Whether you believe in climate change or not, I certainly believe the world is getting warmer. That's gonna have an effect on on the world in terms of production. We've already seen it in England. Think there's gonna be an element of survival of the fittest, though, whereas with anything because of COVID, a lot of businesses that aren't sharp and aren't smart just might go out of business because it's a very, very competitive market in the wine business. And, the world is still producing more wine than it can drink. So that means it's, it's a very, very competitive market. Yeah. It's interesting you took out the production side. I also think the logistics side as well will will change. I mean, partly also to do with climate change. I know wine obviously can last in bottle. It's not a perishable product in the sense of yogurt or any things like that, but but I think we're seeing also hiccups in, in production cycles as well in terms of bad weather. And so you're not always gonna get the same brand every year to top growth or just an everyday one. But I think that's I think that's what for me, that's part of the fascination. You know, buying, you know, not I'm not gonna mention any brands by name, but if you buy one of these big brands, And the whole point is that it tastes the same year after year. Well, that's pretty boring, actually. I I I love the vintage variation or any variation that comes through a winemaker doing something a bit different with with different blends. Or indeed, you know, different different ways of making wine. I think it's a it's such a fascinating industry, and and the work and people want to learn about it because because it is constantly changing. And on that note, a perfect segue to I took my guest today, Ian Harris, w s e t, chief executive, and my former teacher is very, very nice to hear your voice again, written about some of those old, names from London in the early nineties my merch. So no longer exists. Really fascinating to talk to you. And I really hope we can catch up again on the podcast, at another I'd I'd love to because we're doing some really good stuff in Italy with fifteen, fifteen places you can do at double digit qualification. And and and Italy is absolutely flying for us. In co in times of COVID, we actually we're growing our business in Italy. So, I'd be delighted to have another chat with you at some stage, Monty. Just let me know. Alright. Listen, it's really nice to talk to you in. Take care and, best of luck. With all your projects. Brilliant. Thank you much. Listen to the Italian one podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalISM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until time.