Ep. 440 Paul Caputo

Italian wine podcast is a proud media partner of wine to wine twenty twenty. This November twenty third and twenty fourth is the seventh edition of the business forum wine to wine. Featuring seventy sessions dedicated to the wine industry. Normally held in verona Italy. This is the first ever full digital edition of the forum. On November twenty first, wine spectator will kick off the proceedings with a free to register opera wine presentation. Featuring the hundred best Italian wines of the year. Point to wine twenty five tickets available at wine to wine dot net. Italian wine podcast with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me, Montewall. And my guest today is Paul Caputo. Did I say that right? You did indeed. Yes. Okay. And just tell us what you do? Yes. Well, I'm, I'm a, a wine writer, I suppose, I've been in the wine trade for probably twelve, thirteen years now started out in sort of importing and retailing to private client wine lists. And then Oh, whereabouts was that? Which country were you in? Oh, sorry. Yes. I'm in I'm in the UK. I'm in Chester in the Northwest in the one of the great wine areas of the world. I'm sure. Yeah. So I ended up, as I said, importing wine from the the south of Italy, and then selling to customers up here in the northwest, and then I gradually transitioned into more sort of PR marketing and communications roles, and that kind of inspired me to pursue writing, really, as a as the main thing I do in wine. What was it that attracted you about south of Italy? I mean, there's, you know, you've got starting a wine business And you're thinking, right, I wanna make money. I'm gonna be setting Pomerol and Pulli Nimon Rache. Why would you wanna go down to the deep south of it? Yeah. Yes. Aliannecker wasn't exactly, wasn't exactly in demand at the time. I must admit No. My my grandfather was born in Vasiliicata. So I had a a family connection down there, and I kind of found wine by accident, really. The it wasn't a sort of planned attempt to get into the wine business. I just had a little one of those euphoric vineyard experiences, and it just happened to be in in basilicata, and that inspired me to, you know, to try to learn the business, really. So was that Italian family you had down there then? Yeah. My my grandfather was born in the the Volterre area of basilicata and found himself in the UK during the second world war. And then he met an English lady, which is my grandmother, and and he stayed here. When I was about twenty, I went back to to Genestra, the little village to sort of find out where he was from and and what kind of life he might have lived there, and and it just so happened. It was in the middle of the Alianico Delvaultre doc, area. So I got hooked, so to speak. That was funny. My, my Italian partners' mum is from, basilic Carter. Alright. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I can say that I've got also got basilicata roots as well. So in terms of, you so you do a podcast. Right? Yes. Okay. Tell us about your podcast. Yeah. I mean, obviously, very, very early days. I've I've only done about twelve episodes and and called it a series. So it's it's obviously nothing compared with with this one. But, yeah, I mean, during lockdown, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty around what to do and how to do it. And I've always been listening to podcasts certainly over the last seven or eight years, really, not just about wine, but but about all sorts of things, and a podcast seemed a natural vehicle, I think, for me to, you know, if I was gonna have a go, I must admit. I did I had no idea how the technical side of it might work, you know, about how to record and host and distribute the thing, but in theory, I I think I knew how I wanted it to sound. Okay. So what was the tone that you were gonna set? Obviously, wine can be a very bamboozling topic, not just for people in the industry, but obviously, especially for members of the public. Who's your podcast aimed at? Yeah. I think it's probably aimed at sort of the wine trade in the UK and, you know, anybody who is really into wine. It's not really aimed at the the casual consumer who, you know, although I would I'd like to think it's not inaccessible. It's just a sort of talk with guests a little bit on a level that maybe implies some sort of vague understanding of, you know, of wine and perhaps some of the different grapes and regions of Italy. But, yeah, I think, you know, the the wine world is massive and no matter how long you've been in it, it's very difficult to understand everything about a region. And so, hopefully, there are things about it that might be of interest to different aspects of people's wine, knowledge, and experience. So who who's coming on your podcast? Are you sommeliers, distributors? And there's there's been a a bit of a mix so far. We've had some people who maybe don't have a huge reputation, and we've obviously had some people that do. Obviously, Stevie Kim's been on to talk about Via. And we've had, Sandra Munzagerty talked about his Barolo mapping, but we've also had some lesser known importers who are just deeply passionate about certain areas of Italy, really, and certainly little specialized subjects. So in one of your biographies, we got you you seem to have an interest in sustainability. What is what does that mean in relation to wine that for you? Yeah. I I thought I thought you might ask me that. So that I remember when I first started out in wine watching Chateau Monty on on the TV, and, obviously, I I know your, you know, you've built your career around a passion and knowledge of biodynamic wines and natural wines and sustainability. So I'm I can't claim to be a huge ambassador for biodynamic wines. But, yeah, I mean, I think on a personal level, I I prefer to drink wines that have received less intervention, you know, whatever that may mean to people, but I I don't know where that might have come from. Perhaps, last year, I did invest in a, you know, little biodynamic wine bar in Chester. The sustainability element may have come from there. I mean, it's always difficult as the sustainability because we talk about sustainability and we're, you know, sometimes there's always that confusion about how we talking about the vineyard? Are we talking about the winemaking? Or are we talking about the distribution chain? Or are we talking about, you know, end users and how that wine gets there? So it's obviously a big, like, that is not always easy to In some of my writing, I've discussed ideas around sustainable business practices in in the wine trade and whether that be, as you say, at a at a winery level or perhaps, you know, even as a an importer or a retailer in terms of the way it tries to to communicate with customers on an ongoing basis and maintain those those customers. So, yeah, I suppose sustainability in that sense is is a term I've probably overused in places. I mean, are you I mean, is your core business? Is that, on prem premise trade, or is it, private sales? Or No. To be honest, I I do a lot of, PR work now and and kind of behind the scenes communication, either, you know, the actual crafting of communications or or perhaps just advising on the infrastructure around building mailing lists, integrating, you know, the different opportunities for communication. And and so a lot of the stuff I do is kind of not really that visible, you know, immediately, but but running parallel to that I suppose Vinerandum, is a website I've been working on more publicly, which is it started as something between sort of Viner random and memorandum, and it was meant to be a sort of a long list of producers and regions with grapes, and it's kind of evolved into what's hopefully a a useful resource. Is that an online reason? Yeah. It's been a random dot com, and it's, you know, in theory, you can type any grape or region or producer or you know, and you can navigate through an encyclopedia if you like from there. Unfortunately, every time I look at it, there's constantly bits missing, and it it's a very ambitious project. It's not just Italian wines. It's it's every country and region and grape and all the the synonyms. So it's it's a it's a long term project. It's a hell of a lot of stuff to build, I think, for, but what is it? I mean, is it is it like a free website, or is it subscription, or how does it work? Yeah. At the moment, it's a it's a free resource. It's the website where you can literally, you go on and you have a a search box, and you can browse from there. And it's at the moment a platform for me to host some of my writing work, and I've had some other friends and other industry colleagues who who I know who have very kindly submitted articles themselves for it. It's growing quite nicely now. The the traffic's increasing to it. The interest level around it is growing. And it's been a couple of years sort of building out the database and the the different rules for the different the different regions or different populations. So people write, but do you commission people, or do they just you know, send you an email to Hey, listen. I'd like to write a thousand words on, I don't know, Bruno or or Pina Grigios. I mean, how does it work? Yeah. Well, a a little bit of both, really. Initially, it was based around favor swapping and back scratching and some friends of mine, some other Vinitally ambassadors that we've very kindly wrote some thoughts about different things. But now, yeah, we're we're maybe getting towards the point where we can commission things and we'll be able not hugely lucrative, I suppose, at this particular moment in time, but Yeah. I mean, certainly anyone who is interested in in writing and looking for some opportunities should definitely get in touch. But, yeah, I mean, it's a it's a it's a blank canvas, really. We have a who, you know, there's a lot of a lot of regions and a lot of grapes to potentially, inspire some reflection on. Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of online, isn't it? With a with a paper book, you're you're really stuck. You know, there's the that's you're in four walls, but on the online, you're not. So that's the advantage, I suppose, but also you've got so much content potentially to fill. So You did did you do the VINit to the international exam? I I did. Yeah. I I did it in two thousand nineteen. Yeah. Last April, I did it in verona. And how do how did you get on? Yeah. It was, it was an interesting experience. I I passed, first time, fortunately, which was which was good. But I must admit in the run up to it, I had no idea really what the standard would be or or what kind of people would be on the course. I think What did you expect? I don't know really. Obviously, coincided with Vin Italy. So it was a know, it was a nice I was in going to be in verona anyway. And I I received this email. I thought, oh, that's actually I quite like the sound of that. I quite like the sound of being part of that group. And I think I did also know Kevin Ganyan, who's a an ambassador I think he passed a few years earlier. I was on a press trip with him when he was studying originally for his exam. So so I I was vaguely aware of it, but I didn't know much more than the basic headlines about it. But I it was fantastic that the group of people that I met at, you know, last April was a really strong group I thought, and I think many of us are are still in touch. And I think probably will, you know, I've managed to travel around Italy with with some of those people. And, yeah, I I was very impressed. But how important is that to you? I mean, not just doing the exam, obviously testing yourself and being forced to learn, stuff that you maybe never learned before. And then the opportunity to actually spend time in the country with like minded people and obviously very knowledgeable people. Hell, how important was that to you? Yeah. Very, actually. I mean, from a personal perspective, I'd perhaps become a little bit bored with Italian wine, and that's really because my understanding of what was going on had had slipped a little bit, really. You know, I'd I started started out when I was twenty two, twenty three. Had formed my stereotypes of what was happening in various regions, and I'd kind of become a little bit too attached to them. It was great to go and talk to people who are running businesses related to Italian wine all over the world and, you know, receive their their their points of view on things. And I think, obviously, the the the northwest of England is not the best place to get that kind of industry insight from, you know, you can become a little bit isolated. And so, yeah, it was great to see that once you removed that UK centric prosecco and pinot grigio bubble, you know, there's actually a tremendous amount of things happening, you know, throughout Italy and being forced to delve into all these, you know, at times obscure grape varieties is is is, is really good. It's it's a it's a great opportunity, I think, for anyone. What are some of your favorite varieties as a as a wine drinker? And what are your some of your favorite Italian varieties in terms of business that, you know, that that keep them, that pay the bills. Yeah. Well, I think psychologically, I'm very attached to Alyanneko, you know, to it's it's quite a sentimental variety to me. Yeah. You can take way out of the south, but you can't take the south out of the point. Right? Yeah. Exactly. And, it was quite interesting because the blind tasting wine on my exam was Alianca Dovoltre, and I I knew it immediately. It's just that it's, you know, just so much experience tasting that variety from such a a young age that I just recognized it straight away. So but I must admit beyond Ayana Co, some of the varieties from the south are not my favorite. You know, I I must admit. I do like the cooler climate varieties, if you like, I like perhaps more of the red fruit character and the higher acidity than, you know, black fruit and and custom toasted oak. But You're jumping from the deep south up to the, up to the north of Italy with it. Yeah. I fled to the French border almost. Yeah. I shouldn't say that. Certainly, that, you know, the the wines of, of Aetna, I think I've I've been really impressed with. I mean, my wife's actually from the Aetna region. So I've also had quite a good experience with, you know, with Norella Mosaleza and with the different cruise of the appalachian. I think Edna's fascinating just in terms of the texture of the wine. I mean, they they've got a very distinct texture. I know, not obviously, the volcanic soil and the and the, the luminosity and the, the constant winds and, and all that, so now I just love a texture of those wines and they're sort of big wines, but they don't feel heavy. Yeah. Absolutely. And I I I I kind of feel I feel that maybe that trend might go north a little into Calabrio. I think that's another possibly exciting place to create that style, if you like. Do you think the UK market's still a little bit, fuddy duddy about, accepting sometimes it's unpronounceable foreign, great variety names? Obviously, we can say, and we can say sovignon blanc quite easily, merlot easily, but some of the Italian grape variety names come up a little bit complicated. Do you think that's a bit of a a barrier that we have to get through all the all all people that sell wine like you, have to try and get faster. Yeah. I I do think that. I'm often accused of being a a little bit negative in that sense, but I do think that Italy is a big challenge. And I think there are many people in the wine trade who are challenged by Italy and it, you know, it's geography and the the language if you like. I think if you're an Italian speaker, it's very easy. But if you're not, it can be quite hard to get a handle on it all. And I think, I mean, I did a a virtual press trip with the prossecco consortio the other day. And and obviously there, DOCG is, and then you you add some of these additional geographic terms to the wines. And you put them on the wine list and you just think This is a different vibe to the the kind of prosecco request I've had over the last ten years. But, yeah, I think if a merchant or an importer can manage to get the consumer around that language barrier, the stylistic tunity for consumers is is massive. Which which parts of Italy are on your hit list? The areas that you haven't visited yet, but you're definitely wanting to go to or would like to go to? Yeah. I really want to have a route round, fruley, fruley, Venezige, Julia. I mean, I'm I'm quite well traveled in Italy over the years, and I think that's one of Working for myself is I've had the opportunity to, you know, extend some of my visits a little bit, but, freely, and some of the border area in the in the very north of Italy is is somewhere that I've not had the opportunity to spend as much time as I would like in. And and Sardinia as well was doing a inventing calgary recently, but unfortunately only last it a couple of days. And I think Sardinia is potentially very interesting as well. I I I just think that the producers are starting to move away from that commercial style perhaps that maybe they've relied on in the past. You know, the the wines have never been bad, but they've always been just okay. You know, they're correct wines, but they're not hugely exciting. But I think some of the producers are, you know, the younger generation are now taking over and they're they're starting to push the barriers a little bit more with what they do in the vineyard and what they do in the in the cellar. Do you think also it's a quick question of yields, maybe, look, a lot of sort of cooperative wineries there? Maybe there's a sort of bulk So there can be a sort of a bulk. Yeah. I think so. And I I think even if if you're a family with only, you know, six or seven hectares, you know, or even less, I think maybe in the past, you might have considered selling your grapes because it's just not really commercial. I think you know, a lot of people who are in their twenties and thirties are looking at these social media tools, and they're seeing the the branding opportunities of doing their own own projects even if they may not on day one be hugely commercial. Where's your next trip? Well, my next trip should have been next week to, to Amelia Romania, but the constant rule changing is causing a a bit of trouble, really. So, we'll have to see. I I'm in theory judging at Radice del soot in Bari in November, but again, unclear what's gonna happen at this point. Yeah. It's a shame. That's a really great event. That's one of those events, if you've never heard of it, it's called Noradice del soot southern roots. And you get invited, and you only get invited once. You only get one shot at going there, but it's a very interesting trade, event for people, wanting to get to know some of those in, local great varieties from the, from the south. Really, it's well worth going if you can, if you can make it. Yeah. Well, this is obviously my first go, as you say. And and, yeah, obviously, wine to wine theoretically is just after it. So I suppose we're all waiting to see what the what the Italian government does next. Well, fingers crossed. If you do go, I will see you there because I'll be there in a in a couple of weeks. So Fabulous. Okay. We look forward to meeting you in person. Thanks to my guest, Paul Kabuto. Thanks for coming on the Italian Mind podcast. You got lots of plans. But in the short term, we do wish your business been every success. And we hope you can, carry on what doing what you're doing, and obviously it's something that you love as well. So Thanks very much. Thank you for having me. Alright. Okay. Cheers, Charles. Listen to the Italian wine pot test wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time. Chichi.