Ep. 446 Jonas Tofterup MW

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with Me Montewall. And my guest today is Jonas Toptorp master of wine. Welcome. Thank you very much. Now, Jonas, you have more qualifications, I think, than anybody I've ever seen in the wine industry, yet you look like you're sixteen. How are they? How do you do it? I mean, just just give us a bit of a chronology. You know, when you're three years old, you became a master of wine. When you were five, you got an MSC. Go on. Just give us all the stuff that you've done. No. Well, it's it's started back. I was just a young kid. My parents always went to the wineries, for for their holidays and and us as as children, my my siblings and myself, who would go with them to to visit wineries around. Yeah. That was part of it. And then my brother, he got into the wine industry when I was about eleven, I think. And when we went to Denmark, who was actually starting to become a, what they call, they call it Veeen Cooper in Denmark, they imported a lot of bold wine. So they were doing a lot of bustling and quality controls and importing different wines as well. And, I I would want to go with him to work as I go visit family and friends with my parents just too boring. Much more interesting to look at the big tanks and especially the bottling line with all the bottles going forwards and backwards. And I remember that summer, I got back to Spain, and I was I went to English school, and we had to write an essay. What we were doing when we were twenty five years old, I would proudly wrote that I would be making wines with my brother at the age of twenty five. So since then, I actually thought I wanted to go into the to the wine world. So when I finished, some of my a levels, I thought, okay. I wanna go into the wine or not. I was eighteen years old, and I said, okay. To be sure that I wanted to spend the next five years studying in in Technology and Viticulture University. I wanted to have some practical experience. So I went to Spain and did a vintage. Why why Spain, though? Why not I mean, if you're at your age, how old are you, by the way? I'm thirty five. Right. Why were you not going off to Bordeaux? Some swanky Shatter in Bordeaux or burgundy, which is like the typical mecca of where where people wanna get on loan or even California? Why why that choice? Well, I was I was only eighteen, and I grew up in Spain. So it was kind of natural for me to go to back to Spain where I felt quite comfortable with with the language and the culture. And as well, my my brother, he would help me hook me up with that winery. You know, at the age of eighteen, I just write out to random winery. I think it's what I thought back then, it would be difficult maybe to get a get a a apprenticeship or or, yeah, stay with the winery. So what was your job? Were you scrubbing buckets or were you doing something more interesting? No. It was more interesting than that. So we would be doing a bit of selection tables when the base arrived. We were doing another manual punch down on a different, smaller project and batch chess they were making. We were three who came there to help out at the winery, and two would be doing adding the yeasts, taking out samples, doing the bit of the, the basic analysis work where you do take the sugars, you measure the the alcohol and acidity of of the the wines, and then Were you very much an indoors guy or were you also happy to get out in in the vineyard in the winter pruning and you know, fixing tractor gearboxes. Was it very was it varied or was it just in the winery? That my the internship that I had was for three months, it was during the harvest. So we weren't much out of the the wire the vineyards. It was just a a couple of days, actually. It was more at the winery that we had to, you know, take care of all the the different, what, grapes which came in. Of course, everything under the, the, the, the winemaking team, you've got a lot of experience that way. But why is Maliga so special to you? That particular part was Spain. Well, my I I moved in when I was five with my parents or my parents. They migrated and forced From Denmark. From Denmark. Yeah. As you may No. There's a lot of, international people who live down here as my father. He he was hijacked for a job here for at a bank in we had to set up an office at Danish Bank. So they had an Danish office for the Danes on the Southern Coast of of Spain. And so it's kind of my, my home to me. I've spent more years here than any other place in, in my life. And now I live here mainly due to my wife, she's She's from from Andalessia, and it's hard to to get a Spanish woman outside her home region. But you're quite happy though. You know, you don't, you know, you don't go to bed every night saying, oh, I wish I was in Denmark. No. No. Not at all. Now I ever since I moved back to Denmark, after spending my childhood in in Spain, I thought I would go back to Spain at some point in my life. So it's kind of night natural for me Of course, sometimes I miss me living closer to a winemaking region. But you can't have everything, and then you just try to adapt your your professional life, according to where where you live because you have to have a balance between family and and work. So looks like Denmark is also building its own wine industry. Have you had much experience of the Danish wines and you you involved in in any way in the Danish wine production scene? So so I I was actually when I was studying, food science and technology in Denmark at the University of Copenhagen. I was actually working for two years at a Danish winery in, in Abiloura, would you say? Just like fifteen kilometers outside the center of Copenhagen. So it's slightly out there once or twice a week to help out the the team there. So I had an extra hands on the video culture and and Waimeaking experience in Denmark already back then. But what sort of varieties do you find in Denmark? What what grows there? What can grow there? Because it's, you know, fairly northern, and it's surrounded by water. Yeah. So so they have many hybrids, basically. German hybrids, they've been importing. Rondo in particular is one that many growers they wanted to put their bets on because things they like red wine, so they want to make red wine in Denmark. Of course, with the very warm and subtropical climate that we have in Denmark. It's it's fantastic to go red wines there. So I've seen that irony here on a on a podcast, but, but it's it doesn't work that well for the red wines in my, in my view. But we do have some some experience making few rose wines that does work and and white and sparkling, that's where I think we can we could make something interesting. But this it's still early days, I think. If you think of back in the UK ten or fifteen years ago, that's, I think, where Denmark is today. Yeah. Trying to find out which interspecific crossings work the best Yeah. In terms of yield and in terms of, in terms of, plant health as well. Okay. So you were recently involved in judging at the Ven Italy International Five Star competition. Is that right? Yes. I was. You were doing wine without walls, I think? Yeah. And that's the organic and sort of natural wine section of the competition. Yeah. And, do you have an affinity for those kind of wines? The organic and the pandemic and natural? Now I think organic and biodynamic wines, I I definitely do do love them a lot. Natural wines. Well, depends of lesser or all ways of discussion, in terms of the definition of a natural wine. If it's well made without any faults in terms of platinum ICs or high volatil acidity or too much acid aldehyde, so this is not like Bruce apple. Then I do like natural wines quite a lot, but if but there's just too much, variation in terms of natural wines and non sulfate wines. So depending if they're well made, if they are, I do. Okay. And the tasting was this sort of virtual tasting. Did you face any particular challenges with that or not. Are you quite comfortable with the this enormous change instead of being face to face at a table with people literally four centimeters away from you doing it on your own? Is that okay for you? Yeah. No. I actually enjoyed it. So I I just put it up. I was sitting actually doing it outside on the terrace downstairs. We had to go through the the sixty wines, which was really nice. The the difference is that Do you have a barbecue going at the same time? Was Music. Yeah. Chill out, and then took a base with a broom when I wanted a break and stuff like that. Snorkeling and then a couple of wines. Yeah. No, but I I, of course, you you had a few breaks, but it was you see the the competition was a bit different set up in the sense that it was only me basically tasting the one wine, so there wasn't much discussion going on with other judges. So we were a bunch of judges, and we all judged different wines. So where you're sitting at, one of the competition normally, you would be tasting the same wine with three or four other judges, and then you'll be discussing the wines often and calibrating. And here was basically, my choice in order to, to how I would judge the wine, and that was probably the the points that the wine got. Though depending on how they were judged and my comments afterwards, then it would be get retasted in in Italy by another judge afterwards. What do you like as a judge? Are you quite sort of, quiet and are you someone, that, really nice to interject and lead the table? And, how do you how do you what's your way of judging with a group? I because everyone's a bit terrified of masters of wine. Right? And you sit at a table with it. Oh my god. I've got two masters of wine on my table. Oh, and, you know, it's your your knees start knocking together. And, you sound like a pretty laid back guy, to be honest? No. I I'm quite relaxed. I I've think I understand that we've got different preferences. So I think as we've everybody respect everybody everybody's tastes, so if people, they would judge one different than I would, and they would have reasons to do so, I would think that's absolutely fine. But if there's a a one which has a problem or it's it's really diluted, really poor quality then, and somebody else judge it. Quite high. I would say, look, try to retrace it, try to how do you really find it balanced? How long is it in the pellet afterwards? Has it got proper intensity? And just ask questions in order to hopefully lead them to giving a lower school and and vice versa. If it was a good wine, then, of course, try to have somebody by themselves convince themselves that it's it was it is a better wine. But generally, I don't interfere too much with people. Are there any sort of wine styles that you really struggle with? I mean, one of the classic ones in Italy is a lot of Sacramento de multifaca, which is quotes the most tannic, great variety in the world. I mean, do you have any sort of bugbear varieties that you really can't deal with, or do you just love absolutely everything? I wouldn't say I I love absolutely everything, but I do enjoy tasting a really wide range of wines. I, I can't see I have trouble with any wines. No. Retanomyces, if that I find a bit of retroanomyces in the wines, that I do kind of punish the wines about to score them, unless it's extremely, extremely subtle. But if it is a bit there, then then I just I'm a winemaker and it's one of our say, defects that we do when we find an a defect or or, a problem with the wine, then we're trying to punish it. Yeah. I mean, I think with Brett, one of the issues above from the fact. I mean, you know, you can have some wines that are quite nice, but I always think I'm not I'm not like you, a proper winemaker, but I have worked in wineries and stuff is is is a thing that you should be able to avoid if you're a competent, winery manager or foreman or foreperson, I should say. You know, you should really have that under control, I think. And, it's it's an for me, it's an avoidable fault. And I'm not saying it's an easily avoidable fault, but it's a an avoid avoidable fault. I don't know what your thoughts are. I'd be interested to hear what you think about that. I think I've I know many great winemakers, who've had bread sanitizers in the winery, me included in some wines that I've made. But one thing is that you have in the winery and you deal with it there, and then you try to say eliminate it or get rid of those wines. Another thing is that you actually have a wine with a bit of patronymisis and you choose to bottle it and send it on the market. That's an an issue, but I I think that sometimes it it just happens, especially if you buy, like, used barrels from from other wineries, it's it's always risk involved, that retirement can can develop, in your wine. So it's yeah. I can't see there's no way just a hundred percent to avoid it at the winery that there's always a risk involved unless you've got a really low pH in in your wines and you do take a lot of care with the software. But if you've got higher pH in the wines, then it can be quite hard to to manage, the botanomizes. You you did a little bit of work for Aldi, which is a supermarket chain. In Denmark. What sort of things do they ask you to do? Are you full time or you're a consultant? And if so, what what is the exact, job that they they give you? I'm a I'm an external consultant for them I spend one to two days a month consulting them more or less. So I helped, I have been helping them taste through the, the, the portfolio and try to pressure some of the suppliers in order to give put better juice in the in the the bottles and also been cleaning up in a few bad wines that we have on the shelves and then finding new suppliers. So that's been one of it to try just to clean up the the fixed portfolio. And also adjusted a bit more in terms of, okay, which SKUs, which products do onto the shelves. And on the other hand, I've also been helping selecting them wines of the month. So once a once a month, we take in a product. And we promote it in in the the magazines that get sent out to consumers. And then people can buy these wines so we would buy a small parcel of, say, six to twelve thousand bottles. But you sort of on their on their monthly magazine as well. Are you a bit of a sort of a media, public media person as well, or was it you just sort of behind the scenes in the supermarket warehouse? No. I've been also on the media for them. So I've been published with the bottles that I've been selecting once a month. So in the in the magazines, they send out the physical ones, And I'm also on the Aldi's website. If you say Aldi dot d k, then I'm there under the wine area, and all the text that we have there, I wrote recent comments and so forth. I mean, how in terms of the Danish market? I mean, What is hot at the moment? And what do you think, the suit the the trends for the future in the Danish market? So hot and what has been hot for the last, maybe twenty years in Denmark is, is red wines with very soft tannins, quite rich fruit, and residual sugar. These apassimento style wines that you find from from Italy. I think Denmark is probably one of the biggest consumers of amarone in the world. At least per capita, I'd I'd like to think. And, of course, Roans are quite expensive. So there's a MPP things. They like it, so there's been dirt, a whole big portfolio of different to these opacity mental style wines from from Pulia and also from from the Veneto, which are very, very, very successful. So, I mean, all of those wines you meant, they're sort of, like, you know, you would in three words, you say, you know, big reds slightly, slightly sweet in some cases. So is that is that, too much of a of a character? No. I think that's that's what been that has been been and still is very, very popular in the in the Danish market. But there is also a trend now towards Rosier. Rosier has been growing the last three years. Very, very, very positive one. And also white wines are are increasing. So you do see there is a certain trend towards white and and rose sales in particular. On premise or for off off premise. These are are off premise statistics. Basically, if you look at the Danish market, only five percent of all the volume is consumed on premise. Okay. So it's it's a vast majority. You take the UK for example. It's twenty percent on on premise. So it they're not isn't has a very, very small on trade market. So, you're teaching WSET. Is that correct? Yeah. You run the Iberian wine academy and, Yes. Yes. And how's that? I mean, how are you Do you have to go there physically, during COVID, or can you do do that again online? I only do the classes physically where people, they they show up and would do the classes. It's not a full time job. By by any means, I run four, maybe five courses a year. That's basically it, all in Malaga. So you recently helped edit the technical material for the w for the wine and spirit education trusts diploma Can you tell us a little bit about what that involved? Yeah. So so the the material was was developed by well, it was already there and they had been re updating it for when they launched, the new diploma last summer. And as I'm a winemaker and have a good relationship with the WCT, then they asked me if I wanted to edit the the material they had. So they sent me all the material, then I just Yeah. Looked through it and edited it and came up with additions that I thought were quite relevant, giving my theoretical background, but also my practical background in in producing wines. So just give us an example of that because what you're saying is something that I absolutely applaud. I think it was very much information led. I don't think that it's there's not much waffle in the WCT. It's quite to the point and quite factual, the in information. You changed then. Now what did you what did you add? So it was more it was more in terms of what has to be included. What I think is is relevant. So one thing is the use of nano proteins that could be one of the things that I would add, okay, because the many wineries are actually using it, but nobody really talks about it. Over the use of rectified must concentrate to add a little residual sugar or the use of gum arabic. These kinds of things, which are very relevant for to making certain styles and for for the cheaper ones, especially. It's quite relevant, but nobody really talks about it. But it's it's used really massively, I think, for a course like the ws that you diploma, I think, is it's vital that people with this level of knowledge in the wine industry, they should also know what what is really happening at the wineries and what is legal. Yeah. It's good to hear that because, we I think one of the things that natural wine has shone a torch into an an organic environment as well. Is just how much correction can go on in a winery to make a wine that is, ready to go on the shelf. And I think until people woke up to the fact that wine isn't quite so cuddly as as we thought it was, by having actually having that knowledge and by by shining a light into those dark corners like your that you've done by changing that syllabus is a very, very important thing, I think, for the future of our industry. So well done you on that. That's really the fact that they've asked you to do it is wonderful and the fact that you've they've actually chosen you and you've done that is, I'll give you, you know, ten out of ten for that. Well done. No. Well, thank you. It I really enjoyed doing it. I think it's, It's fantastic material, and I'm a big fan of the WZT. It's a great program, really. Do you see any other future changes? I mean, maybe in terms of, probably not your Forte, but, I mean, the the the demographic of students or the, again, the way the syllabus is either taught or created. Do you see any more changes in the future for that, or do you think it's fixed for a while now? The WST, they're always working on updating the material. So last year, they also removed the spirits part of the level two. And now they're working on updating the the level three materials also deciding on what they what has to be added, what has to be removed. But I'm not involved in that. I just did the technical part of the diploma. But they are currently working, as mentioned, on on updating the level three today. It's constantly updating, but it's it's also a difficult thing to do because they're very tied up in terms of how many words and how much time can be dedicated to the WSTT because if they choose, say, to add another page or two pages on Italy or on Spain, for example, that means, okay, they would have to add another hour of lecturing, which means that all the approved programs, providers around the world, they would probably have to increase, of teaching hours, which would then result in increased expenses and so forth. So they're really locked down to to what is currently existing, in these these books. So it's it's big decisions and has big consequences for their. Yeah. The mechanics of, putting a syllabus together. It's not just about what's on the syllabus. It's how long it is. Now, you know, you're not much of a linguist. You speak Danish English, French, Spanish, German, but not Italian. So that's a that's a black mark. It's the first black mark you've got during this interview. Very, very disappointing, mate. I'm sorry. But, and when you teach, I mean, do do you get a real thrill about being able to teach in bit in different languages, or do you just only just do it in one language? I I teach in English and in Spanish for the for the WST, at least. I I enjoy both languages very, very much. In in particularly Spanish, for Spanish, because, of course, with my appearance and with my some of my wordings, phrases, they can, of course, hear that I'm a foreigner, And it's just fun to make fun of myself, basically, in front of the girls and have them laugh have a laugh about it. It's just a El Guiti who's making a state a mistake again. Elghiti is what they call the foreigners here in in this part of of Spain. A bit of self irony. I enjoy that a lot. You got a sense of humor, which is great. Where do you see yourself self in a way you and your family, personally, professionally in ten years time? You think you'll still be in Spain, still doing what you're doing, or you got any other plans, master plans? Well, I in ten years time. I'd still be living here where I live right now. I think I don't can't see myself move away from here. We're very, very happy here. Beatrice and myself, my wife. But I do see myself moving more into production again. I am a winemaker. So, I'd like to see myself produce my my own range of wines in in Spain. For the for the international market. Really? So there would be Spanish Spanish wines that you would present on the international market. Yeah. Okay. And so what sort of great varieties are your or styles do you think you would focus on, in terms of economics? And business sense, and also which varieties do you love that may be a less commercial? So I'll would be focusing probably around, the Monastrel grape, the Mulvedre of of France. It is a Spanish grape variety. And I have it was where I worked my first vintage in, in Yedla. And my brother, he, he, and I, we actually been making a small family project there since two thousand and four. So I see us, yeah, develop more wines from, from that area. But personally, I would also like to work with the Mymphia grape from Bierthal in the northwestern corner of Spain. And also worked with Mo in Galicia, with Galbarrino, de Godeo, the Karicha Dura, but also Mincea grown in in Galicia. This crisp and vibrant wine. I love them. Yeah. It's quite a nice little range you got there. You got a sort of thumping red and, and some, mouth tingling white in there. So, Yekla is interesting, isn't it, as a region? It was kind of like was it it was sort of a bulk wine region for a while, then it then it sort of upped its game. Yeah. Yeah. It it has been quite a big producer of both, but it's because it hasn't been they've been good at selling himself, but it's really increasing now in terms of popularity, I'd say. And if you look back historically, I think one of the oldest ruins of of a winery in Spain is actually found very, very, very close to the city of Yekla. So they've got a very long history. And when you retire, obviously, you say you're gonna so you're stuck in Spain, you reckon for the rest of your life. In your retirement, what are you gonna do? You're gonna completely get away from Ryan and become, I don't know, a trapeze artist or or an elephant trainer or something. What are you gonna do? Yeah. I I don't think I would ever give up working in the wine world to some extent, I will always be be working, I think, probably a bit in teaching and, and helping young people develop their careers in the world of wine because it is it is very challenging. There's many options, but it's all the difficult industry to make a living in. So I I could see myself mentoring a lot of young people in the in the wine industry. Excellent. That's a very nice note to to finish on. Jonas Toptru, master wine, fascinating interview. Hope we get you back again in a year or so to find out again exactly what you've been doing, but, you're a very good communicator, and, you can see why you got a very agile brain and passing those exams was no there's no fluke at all, and it's lovely to hear that you got a background in the profinder, getting your hands dirty side of the industry, as well as the, the sort of, sales and marketing and strategic areas of of the wine of the wine business. You're you are the complete master of wine. You got many years ahead of you, and, we wish you every success, Jonas Top. Thank you very much. Monte, thank you so much. It was been absolute pleasure talking to, and I hope to have a glass of wine with you one day soon. Once this is all. Clos more Veta. Be very good. Absolutely. Hey, Kiao. Thanks a lot. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pot casts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.