Ep. 450 Mark Cuff

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Walden. My guest today is Mark Cuff. Mark has been on the show before, Mark. Just introduce yourself, where are you from, and what do you do? Hey, Monte. My name is Mark Cuff. I own a company in Ontario called the Living Vine, which is a wine agency importer that specializes in organic, biodynamic, and, natural wines. And, yeah, I'm based in Ontario. Yeah. Why did you start that company? Why didn't you open a shoe shop or a gun shop or something? Yeah. That's a really good question, Monty. You know, I would say, I I think I I read a book of I'm biodynamic wineries, by Ferlinie Macky Walden. I got really, really inspired amongst other books that I was reading, and that's no joke at, you know, I know we've been doing each other for a long time. I'm joking around a lot, but I got really interested in, biodynamic wines, while I was, working in restaurants in, in Toronto in the early two thousands. And, yeah, there wasn't anyone else that was importing, marketing, or or speaking about biodynamics, or organic in any meaningful way. I certainly didn't see them on the LCBO and monopoly shelves in Ontario, or in restaurants. So, yeah, I I it just it it was just right there in front of me, and it was an irresistible opportunity for me to explore and, get to know these wineries and the people behind them. And, yeah, it's, it's fifteen, one of fifteen years now. And, yeah, it's it's, It's been an amazing and and challenging fifteen years. How well known or how well accepted are those terms in in Canada? Just normal everyday people who who have have the odd glass or bottle of wine. Yeah. It's definitely more, I think I don't think it's niche anymore if that's what you mean. I think most people, if you say something's organic, they know immediately what it is and what what I mean by that. And, you know, without chemicals, maybe cleaner or healthier, when I say biodynamics, I mean, I think there's still a lot of people their eyes will glaze over, and they don't really, you know, understand, what I'm talking about. You know, but I I can also talk about it being more like, you know, sort of super organic or it's like a level up. And then I can, you know, go deeper if they're interested. But I think for the most part, I think the trade in Ontario, I think across Canada, is incredibly knowledgeable. Compared to when I started, and, and consumers as well, especially in the last, three to four years. You know, with, you know, there's lots of new agencies and companies and people are being creative and everyone's sort of focusing in on different things that they're interested in in, I think, with beverage alcohol in Ontario. And I think that, you know, has only, increased awareness and and the education of of organic and biodynamic agriculture. So, yeah, I and as many respects, it's never it's probably never been easier. I guess in the last fifteen years, I mean, the first ten years, I was in business. I mean, I think I had ten customers. I mean, it was it was rough, but at the end of the last half a dozen years, it's been, there's been an amazing growth. I I think around the world and not just our marketplace. Yeah. Ontario is certainly catching up to other major markets in terms of you know, having, you know, incredible wineries and diverse selection of of products and, and an an unknowledgeable, you know, consumer and trade, you know, that can talk about them and enjoy them. And especially with social media and Instagram and and and things now, and it's everything is in there in front of you and and really nice, tidy, neat, little bites of really interesting information about, you know, these great wines. It's very cool. What about, Italian wine? I know you have a love for Italian wine, and there are a lot of Italian, sort of as an Italian vibe sometimes in in the area where you are. How how are Italian wines doing in, in your market? Yeah. I mean, Italian wines are I I think continue to be king here. The Toronto has a a a massive Italian population. I think we've always, been a marketplace that, you know, has went really deep. I think with Italian wineries, you know, throughout the country, not just Tuscany and government at Piamante and, you know, some more famous areas. I think we see a lot of indigenous varieties imported here and and and enjoyed. I think much in the way I think maybe Quebec you know, I think has, you know, incredible, depth of selection of, French wines, like, maybe because of their heritage, I think in Ontario, we definitely have a big interest in Italian wineries. And, you know, at at Italy is, you know, one of the most diverse countries for wine on the planet from the health to Africa. I mean, it's really geographically, it's just an incredible, incredible place. And it's no wonder that, you know, regionally, food and wine is is so diverse there. I mean, I I think you could you you could spend all your time just exploring, wines in Italy and not venture out if you didn't want to and still not even scratch the surface, I think. So you've got an you've got an e commerce, system in your in your business. What are what are the kinds of hurdles you have to jump over to get that up and running in, a country where, alcohol monopolies are are god? Yeah. Well, I mean, we're allowed to have websites. So, I mean, Shopify makes it pretty easy to have an e commerce site. The only real hurdle that we have here in Ontario is that agents or importers can only sell by the case. And, you know, that can be challenging, especially if it's a, you know, premium case of wine or expensive wine. Not everyone wants six to twelve bottles that depending on how it's imported. During, you know, the last six or seven months, I mean, look, we're lucky we have we have a government right now that's really interested in modernizing the beverage job industry. So they're looking at ways to make it, you know, easier for consumers to have access and, to beverage alcohol. So, you know, they've done a couple things to make it a little bit easier for consumers to get access to our wines. One is that that we can do mixed cases now so we can, you know, sort of, pull stock and mix them and and offer, like, really creative and fun mixed packs, but also restaurants are now, allowed to sell a wine takeaway with food orders. So, you know, there's a lot more consumers, I think shopping these sort of shop Wain bar hybrids right now, which is creating a lot of interest and exposing other people who want. So but, Yeah. I don't know if that answers. Does it answer that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I mean, this case seems like it is sort of a step in the in the right direction in terms of treating adults, like adults, I guess. Yeah. I think so. That may be the hardest part about having a website is just owning your content and keeping it up to date. So I think that's just common everywhere. But other than that, I think it's pretty pretty similar to most other places. So what are your criteria for listing in Italian wine? Does it have to be, you know, hundred point, blockbuster, or does it have to be in each scrape that nobody's ever heard of even in me? How do you how do you go about selecting the wines? Is it just price or anything else? I I guess it's every I mean, it's everything. It's not just one thing. The people behind the wines are the most important thing for us to wanna pursue a partnership and work with them. Ontario is such a complicated market, hats off to anybody that, you know, wants to, start importing wine or representing wineries here because it's so challenging and, so restricted. It takes a a very long time to build anything that resembles a business. So you know, if you're going to, work with somebody, you know, to bring the wines into the marketplace, there need to be people that you can, you know, actually work with. So that's really key. But, you know, the the bet the the bare minimum from for us is gonna be, you know, organic dynamic, you know, a real strong focus on video culture, low intervention winemaking. And then they have to be, you know, excellent people. You know, it can't just be, you know, really pretty packaged, you know, wine that just looks safe and cool on Instagram, you know, it it takes a lot of work, and effort and organization to, to bring a case of wine to Ontario and deliver to somebody at their house or to a restaurant. So it can be really challenging if, if you guys don't get along and can work well together. But, you know, most of the wineries we work with, you know, we've we've worked with for a very long time, and most of the wineries that we new wineries that we work with generally come to references from our partners because They like working with us. And, you know, everyone's I'm sure they they all go to the same wine shows, and you'll ask, Kayla, who do you work with here? And but, you know, most of, yeah, most most of the people we work with, we're using on the same page. And So far, that's that's worked out pretty well for us as as a way to guide us to, new new partners. I mean, do you do, like, in store tastings? If one of your, I know, Italian producers is over in town, do you organize a a tasting where he or she can know, maybe get twenty people in a room and do a dinner or something, or is that too difficult? No. No. We we would do a lot of stuff. Right now, we probably wouldn't because, everybody has a different company level with COVID. Whether, you know, how how big their bubble is, etcetera. And then, also, like, whatever restrictions are in place on a given day because it does change quite frequently, week to week, what you're allowed not allowed to do. But if all things were normal, yeah. I mean, we winery's business all the time. We'll usually spend, two or three days in the market visiting restaurants and tastings, you know, with with people that are interested in meeting them. If it's a winery that has, has some product in the LCBO, We could we, yes, we could plan and do store tastings or taste with the LCO staff for some of the bigger stores. Yeah. I mean, we're we're pretty involved. Generally, we spend a lot of time, to hosting people, in the in the marketplace, and because it's so competitive here. I think you do need to visit, and you do need to be on the street, and you do need to hustle and and get out there. And, you know, we have an amazing sales team, and they do a really great job of, taking our winers around, and, you know, they have you know, amazing relationships in the city and and the pro throughout the province. So, yeah, I mean, I I think that's one of the better parts of the job. Sometimes it can be a bit much. I mean, sometimes it feels like you like, people are only ever visiting, but for the most part, it's really great. I mean, these are these are awesome people. Who wouldn't wanna spend a couple days driving around and hanging out with other really great people and talking about why it's, I think it's one of the reasons why we, you know, we we love what we do so much. Yeah. No. That always comes across with you, which is, which is great to see Have you done any great harvesting this season? A little bit. A little bit. I I'm a partner in a winery based in Cremor, Ontario, which is a new sort of up and coming region in Ontario. And, so we've been, I've been helping whenever I have some free time to go there and and help, process fruit as it comes in with our other partners. And, yeah, that's that's been really exciting. It's it's been a really, good vintage this year in Ontario. For the most part, everything came early and at once, it seems like, for most wineries. So, generally, we would see harvest starting September through last year, I think, you know, even the beginning, we needed December. I think there was snow, and I think people were still pros processing cavity for Elk last year. But This year it all came at once, and, I think it's been really good vintage. So, yeah, that's been interesting as well. It's definitely not my my main focus. Obviously, I have the other business, but, I love it. I love what we're doing there, and I I think it's really exciting. So if I've understood credit, Ontario now has controlled cannabis sales similar to other key wine regions like, California, for example, what impact might this have on wine consumption, in your market? I knew you were gonna be excited about cannabis being legalized in Canada. So I'm glad I'm glad you I kind of figured that was gonna, you know, come up. Yeah, I I I don't think it's having an impact at all, really. I think, you know, It's not like cannabis wasn't around before it was legalized. I think people that smoked, it smoked, and people that drank wine drank wine, occasionally, you might do both, and and possibly regret it the next day. But, you know, maybe it's for people that maybe had been maybe drinking too much or, you know, maybe had some challenges with alcohol, maybe maybe switch to cannabis. I'm sure there's that that might might be a thing, but, I think for the most part, no, and it's been really successful. It's you know, alcohol is likely far more dangerous than cannabis. And, you know, it's we live in a very regulated province. And cannabis is incredibly regulated here. I think they do a really good job of commercializing it. Probably, too good of a job, they probably need to relax it a little bit. But, yeah, I think they're being really careful. And and so far, there, I to me, it looks like there's been a very, mature attitude towards, cannabis and material from consumers. And and from the trade. So, yeah, I think it's it's it's shocking that it wasn't always legal. Yeah. How, how plugged in are you still to the to the Toronto restaurant scene? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but I I I mean, I come from restaurants and But, you know, yeah, you come from a restaurant background. I mean, can you still keep up with the what's going on in the in that scene, or are you just totally swamped by wire? No. I think so. I'm I mean, I'm still really interested in in the restaurant industry. I I always wanted to have my own restaurants, and, that's what I wanted to do before I started the agency. And I to be honest, I don't know if I have any friends outside of the restaurant industry, like, maybe a couple I've known since, you know, before I was in it. You know, I I I thought I would say we're pretty immersed in the restaurant industry. I think everyone in the company is. We all come from restaurants for the most part, and our business really focused on restaurant sales in the beginning because our wines were so niche and they weren't hip at the time for most consumers when I started. The Elsefield really wasn't interested in, in organic unless it was really inexpensive. And, you know, there wasn't the same sort of knowledge level, I think, that the buyers and and the people that they'll see people have now back when I started. So I didn't really have a choice. I mean, our my only, you know, the only customers available to me were restaurants. And, yeah, I've been really lucky. They've they've been really good to us over the years, and we've done everything we can to transfer port then as well. And right, like, this right now, we have a campaign on right now where for, four weeks, we're not promoting, wine on Instagram. We're just promoting restaurants that are doing really great takeout and and and bottle shops here in Ontario. Because, you know, I think they really need the support, probably more than we do right now. Restaurants all across the world, I think have been hit pretty hard. And, you know, everybody needs to do more to support them and make sure that they, they survive this Yeah. Because once they're gone, they're gone. They're not coming back. Well, they'll never be the same again. Like, if you think about, you know, the recession, like, the last one, a lot of good kinda came out of the on the other side, it I mean, it's like going through it. You know, businesses run out of business, but eleven new businesses popped up afterwards. The entire restaurant industry really changed and moved away from, you know, really high end finding dining to, you know, really high end casual dining. And we saw that all around the world, not just here in Ontario. And now that we're in the this might be halftime in, you know, the pandemic right now. We're seeing a lot of restaurants doing, you know, really incredible creative things. You know, we have a very vibrant restaurant industry, beverage alcohol industry in Ontario. With a lot of really talented people, and it's just amazing what they're doing just to just to survive and keep their their lights on right now. You know, we're definitely seeing a lot of, like, you know, burgers and stuff and sandwiches and and stuff, but we're also seeing really, a really incredible takeout, like step you you just can't cook at home and, you know, good value in some great restaurants here in in Toronto and all over Ontario. Like, it's pretty amazing. Yeah. There are any sort of new twists, for example. I mean, a classic dish we associate with your butter world is salmon. As anybody in Vancouver doing anything funky with, with salmon, either, with the ingredients or with pairings with wine? Well, I, yeah, I don't spend a ton of time in Vancouver, although, we've just, started working out there in that province. So I'm gonna find out. So I can't really comment on what Vancouverites are doing with, salmon right now. I'm sure they're doing lots of creative thinking salmon out there, but, in Ontario, I mean, we have such a big Italian population, and I think reverence for, you know, really classic Italian food. And find examples of classic Italian food that, people sort of stay in that lane. It it seems like with most restaurants, maybe I've missed some things, who knows. And we're also seeing a lot more engagement in, I think American Italian cuisine, you know, looks, you know, some sugo sauce and, you know, things like that, pasta and meatballs, deep dish pizza, you know, things are this is sort of fairly new to us or maybe used to exist and sort of went away and announced sort of coming back and maybe a higher quality level, but, I don't know if that counts as Italian food for for Italians, but it's quite popular here now as well. And I'm quite I mean, it's comfort food, which is what I think a lot of people are craving right now, time of year, plus, you know, with their stress levels and concern through the roof. Know you don't get a a lot of time to travel, but when you do travel to Italy, where's your where's the favorite place in Italy that you've been to? And what is your dream destination if you can have a week off? I really love the North, Ulto DJ Dolomites. That's that's where I'd, like, spend a lot of time if I could in Italy. Sicily have never been. I've always really wanted to go there. I can't say that's one of my favorites, but I think it might be because I've never been there. I'd love to go at some point. But I do love the North. I love the blend of that sort of German Italian. I I love how different it is, and the landscape, and it's just beautiful. I've never had a bad time there. I've come out of gum, but at least right everywhere. I mean, it's one of the most hospitable countries in the world that, especially if you're traveling for food and wine. And, you know, people are very passionate all over. So I've never been anywhere in Italy where I've been unhappy to be fair. And I I've I've covered a quite a bit of ground there. There's only been a few places. I think I haven't really visited, and it's always been pretty great. When people ask me this question, I can never answer it, but You know, if, you can have three wines on your table this evening, a red, or white, and a fizzy with whatever food you you wanted on the planet, what would you what would your three bottles be? Hans, well, listen, if, Joe Biden has announced the president, the US, I'll probably celebrate. I don't probably have a little bit nicer. I have a few months, from Italy that I've been saving to to, to drink. I have, four doors, Pinegruzio, so back to the dolomites, which is, and for, Pinegruzio, that's quite Rosier. And it's delicious. I think that's just one of the best wines in our portfolio right now when we can get some for white roof. Really tough. I really don't know. Move. Maybe something from, maybe something from Sicily. With a sicilian wine or blend, something from, you know, okapinti or Kavs or, or Calabrata maybe. Calabrata makes them really nice, really sort of fat and juicy whites on that map of our delicious. And sparkling. Yeah. I think fedora makes amazing prosecco. I swore I would never import Pinaigrigio and Presecco. And until I met Emilio from fedora, and, I think, he does a incredible job. They also just finished converting to bidenomic, and they're fully demeter now certified, which is, a great achievement for them. And they've been organic, I think, since the seventies. But, yeah, I I can always open their wines and to really, really well priced and inexpensive, and they always drink really well. So, yeah, that's probably what I would do tonight. Mean, you do strike me as someone who, you know, obviously likes them. Like, I know I'm not saying Patrice, but they're kind of famous wines. We you're down to whatever. You're down to earth. You got a gun. I'm I'm imagining that you derive an enormous amount of pleasure from sort of normal everyday wines. Without hankering for, you know, hundred and fifty bucks, three hundred bottles, every single day. Is that is that right or what have I got you completely wrong? Yeah. No. I think that's probably right. I, like, I mean, for red, like, I like, sort of medium bodied, you know, sort of crunchy lighter reds. So, like, if I have a red tonight, it probably would be something from, like, Ampele, like, they're on metro, which is, like, a one liter every day, very inexpensive, I think, but very good quality, red blends from Tuscany and you know, all the biodynamic stuff. So, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I like to drink. I mean, it should be a really pleasurable and, you know, easy drinking. And sometimes I'll, you know, I'll I I'm lucky I get the I I do get to try a lot of really great wines I'm quite often not drinking expensive bordeaux and burgundy. That's not really what we do. Although we do have some fine wineries from book places, but, who can afford to drink these wines every day. So and, some of them are right now, sadly, are are price themselves out of most marketplaces and and channels. So they're they're becoming increasingly, irrelevant to the trade and consumers. So I don't know. I'd rather support, you know, wineries that are really just living off of these put on small business and supporting their families. For your business, you know, do do you get the odd article in the national, in the national newspaper? A review of a wine that you're stocking and people somebody on a journalist says, hey, you know, there's an offer on a mark shop. I mean, is that how it work or what a people just ignore you? So you you broke up for a minute or a month. Are you call are you calling me from your your Nokia thirty three ten, or are you? I still got that phone. It's it's a vintage phone, but it was yes. Go on. I'm never gonna live my, my phobia of mobile phones down. But I do thank you very sincerely for reminding me of my lack skill when it comes to computers and things like that. I'm a good friend. Keep going. Yeah. I mean, yeah, do you get, you know, did the the people write up at your wines in the reviews and national newspapers or Or is or are you allowed to do that in Canada? Or For sure. We we have, a lot of journalists in Canada. We have some really great ones. There's, a company called Wine Align in Canada, that posts a lot of that works with a lot of journalists and reviews a lot of products that go through how much everything that goes through the LCBO plus in in private if they get access to it. There's a number of journals there. And, I think they're they're doing a really great work. They're producing a lot of really great content, and they're pretty laid back and and just generally, nice people that don't have extreme views on wine. So, I think a very Canadian approach to to love your writing, then, you know, in western Canada, there's some great journalists and writers out there as well, you know, treat ring, that does really great work. I really like her writing. Yeah. I mean, can can we have it all here, Monty? We we have great we have great people in every facet of our of the beverage alcohol industry. Well, my my my uncle and my dad both, my uncle lived in, my dad's father lived in Canada for most of his life in British Columbia, and my dad spent a lot of time. He spent time teaching in, in Canada before he came back to the UK. This is after the war. And, so I I I feel I've got a bit of an affinity to to, to Canada. And, yeah, I mean, one of the true, one of the only true facts you ever hear in life is you'll never meet, a bad Canadian. You know, it's just it's just one of the immutable truths of life. I think it's good to hear. It's it's nice for Canada to maintain this reputation. And You know, it's no wonder. I mean, Canada and and and the UK, of course, I belong history together, especially where I grew up, in Newfoundland. You know, I'm an I'm an eighth generation, Newfoundland, and my family originally comes from Devon to the New England and and, you know, I I think all of my friends and, you know, going up there, I mean, we all have, roots going back to the UK in England and Ireland and Ireland and Ireland and, Scotland. So and wales, quite a few friends with welsh, welsh parents. So I think we always sort of, yeah, I think there's there's definitely a kinship there. So it's no wonder that, I think, you feel that way. I hope Canada can maintain its reputation. Yeah. So do we hope that you continue to do what you do. In Canada and Toronto, pioneer of, organic and biodynamic wine in your neck of the woods. You're a fungi, and, I hope you've enjoyed having a chat with me today. I've certainly had a certainly enjoyed having a chat with you. And, you are one of the rare guests who's been invited back here twice, and we're gonna wait and see if we can make you come back for a third time in a year or so. Okay? When there's hopefully, when there's COVID third time down. Well, I mean, this is the only podcast that I I will actually agree to do. So, you know, it's, If you don't if you don't invite me back, you know, I think it sort of stops there for me. So I hope you do. Nobody else will invite me on. I I I don't know why. I have I mean, I do have a person that emails these companies, and that we get no response. It's really strange, listen. It's appreciated. So thank you. Yeah. And we we just hope our with our listeners enjoyed the podcast today, and and we'll, we'll have to receive you next time. Take it easy. Thanks, Monty. It's great chatting with you. Take care. Alright. Up. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, She.