Ep. 1664 Victoria Cece Interviews Matteo Pavoni | The Next Generation

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book. My Italian Grapeake journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the next generation with me, your host Victoria Cetje. This is your podcast to learn about all the cool things Italians thirty and under are up to in the food and wine scene. And yes, that includes all the best things to eat. Welcome back to another episode of the next generation. With me, your host, Victoria Jazette. So today, we have a wonderful guest, straight from Monza, I believe. Yes. Matteo pavoni, a peacocks coffee, and we're gonna dive into a very interesting and very important facet of Italian culture is the coffee, the coffee bar, the cappuccino, all that good stuff. And I'm so pleased to welcome Mato. Chao Mato. Chao Victoria. Hi, everyone. And, thank you for having me. It's, it's a great pleasure to be here with you. Yes. Thank you for joining us. It was so wonderful to meet you. Last week at the World Food Forum and get to taste some of your coffee. You're doing some really, really cool things. And I'm really excited to talk a little bit, well, talk a lot about, obviously, Italian coffee. But let's talk about you for a second. Tell me a little bit about who you are. Yes. For sure. And at Fau and Romeo, it was also great for me to share a coffee that we'll talk about later for sure. Just a quick introduction about myself. I am thirty years old, and I live in, near Monza. Actually. So in the Prianza area, but my experience in the coffee world started in the UK in, two thousand and thirteen. So I moved there, after my high school diploma, and I started working in coffee. That was my first job ever. So I I didn't have any expectation on the word of coffee and I actually found there is, so much to learn and still now since, two thousand and thirteen, I worked in coffee as a barista then, has a barista trainer, roster and all sort of stuff. And then in two thousand and eighteen, I moved back to Italy, and I started, with my brother Ricardo, our roastery, which is called the peacocks Coffee. Wow. So you started really young. So you started you were just like twenty years old. Yeah. Exactly. I well, working in coffee. Yes. I was, nineteen. So that was my first experience, and, I was lucky to find, this, manager in the first coffee shop I worked He was so passionate about coffee that, I was like, I wanna be like you. So I I never changed it, that feeling. You're like, I wanna be you and I grow up. And now you're doing it. Exactly. Yes. Oh, I have a question for you. So when you first moved to the UK, As an Italian, what was the most culture shocking thing about a coffee culture for you that you didn't expect? I I, you know, it's funny. I can tell you a couple of things because, first of all, I didn't have any experience in coffee at all, but people meeting me and seeing that I was Italian, they assumed that I knew about coffee. They were like, oh, you are Italian. So you must know about coffee a lot. And actually what I realized, was that the UK coffee scene and the specialty coffee scene was way ahead of Italy and way ahead of Italian coffee quality. That was the first thing. The other one that shocked me is the amount of milk that, UK consumers drink throughout all day while in Italy drinking cappuccino and milky coffee. It is very difficult after eleven AM. That's the time limit. Oh, yeah. That that's another argument. A very popular one worldwide now. Yes. Absolutely. So these things were different compared to Italy, but I was also very young and I didn't have really a lot of experience in coffee in it Italy. So to me, UK was the very first experience in coffee. So do you feel like your experience in the UK kind of flipped your perspective in the way that first it was going in with those kind of traditions of understanding that you realize that your knowledge coffee was more about traditions. It wasn't necessarily about like production or the quality. And then you kinda like got to learn the other side. Yes. Absolutely. So, I totally agree with this because, our perception of of coffee, from Italy is, something that we we have in our culture. So we think is good by default. And actually, when I started working in the UK, the first thing that I was told about was, okay. So the coffee we are using actually comes from this place, this origin, this altitude, and this processing. And I was like, really, all these things happen in a cup of coffee. So there was a totally different approach that I was lucky to experience because then I wrote back to my job here in Italy. So that gave me definitely a better insight into the coffee word and more curiosity as well. And so when was the point when you knew that you wanted to start your own coffee company? The third year of living in the UK, I moved to bath to a city called bath near Bristol, working with Maxwell Colona. At the Colon and Smoles, which is one of the best independent coffee shops in Europe. That experience to me was amazing because I got to see how you can actually put your personal character and approach into a coffee shop. How can you share your ideas to consumers? So that really made me wanted to have my own thing and do the same in Italy as Maxwell Dib in in the UK. Being able to express myself through coffee, So that were probably I realized I wanted to have my own company. Yes. I love that because it's like you have the tradition in you from being Italian and then you had that experience learning more about the quality of coffee and also how people embrace coffee culture in other places. And it's like now you wanna express yourself in kind of break the mold, you know, because as we see, like, we were we're talking about previously in Italy sometimes. And though it's changing now, it's like almost as if you can't fight the tradition because it is what it is. But there's so much more beauty to coffee that can get suffocated by that. Yes. Absolutely. As you said, it's changing now, but, many people ask me, why did you not open your grocery in the UK since you were living there? And the answer is, that in Italy is is a lot more challenging and therefore is more fun for me. And yeah, as you said, I can bring back my experience from another country and, is much much more fun to challenge the expectation of how people think coffee should taste like. That's so important to bring up the fact that you people ask you, like, why didn't you just stay in the UK? But it was because you still have that, like, love for where you're from and you want to help, I guess, you know, make it better. Like, not I don't wanna say better because it's not, like, one's better than the other necessarily, but you wanna give back because I think there's obviously we don't have to get into, like, the political discussion of this. But there's this kind of stereotypical notion that's like, oh, you know, young Italians leave Italy and blah blah blah, but it's funny for me at least in Italian American living in Italy. Though the quantities aren't large, I see what's really inspiring for me is seeing people like yourself who are doing the work and investing and knowing that, like, it can bring good in the long term. And it's really exciting to see because I'm somebody that hates, like, stereotypes. Like, I hate when people just make these generalizations. And I'm like, for me, like, going to these cool, like, even in Rome, and I'm sure, you know, like, there's some really lovely specialty coffee shops that popped up And it's so exciting because it it feels like home for me because a lot of them remind me of like New York, New Jersey, but it's still Italian, and I love it because it brings everyone together. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local food, and taking in the scenery. Now, back to the show. Yes. We definitely have our, identity. So you can still experience the Italian approach, but with the younger generation, you get to see also more experienced because most of of my colleagues, most of my competitors, they have been traveling around, so they have been experiencing different cultures, and they bring it back here, which doesn't mean that we want to remove Italian, tradition but we we just wanna open people's mind a little bit more. And, and in coffee, especially is, is really important that consumers do that. So we we try to do our best. If I look back at, for example, two thousand and eighteen when I started our roastery. There were other, roasteries focusing on specialty coffee. There were a few specialty coffee shops, but now I feel like in every big city in Italy, there is a list, one good coffee shop and one good grocery. So Absolutely. And that's so true. And it was it was actually a question I wanted to ask you before, you know, diving more into your business, but there's so many wonderful traditions in Italian coffee culture, like just the simple aspect of leading, like, a banco, like, on the on the counter. You know? Like, that simplicity is something I don't think will ever leave because it's so it's fantastic and it's so open and it's such a driver of community too to, like, lean on the bar. And even if you're alone, talk to your buddy stuff, And that's what I do love. Actually, you're you're making me smile because I remember I went to Fado. Fado? Yes. Yeah. In Rome. And I walked in there, and, you know, it's very hip and cute and whatever, very popular. And They have a small banco where their pastry cases. And I was thinking, oh, gosh, like, can you still, like, lean here? Because it seems more like it reminded me of, like, New York where you just get your stuff and you go or you sit down. But then there was these two old Italian men, like, they're just leaning, taking up a bunch of face having a, like, a chat. And I was like, yes. Like, it hasn't changed. You can still do it. Yes. That will always be there. And it made me so happy because for me, that I love that element, but I also like the element of being able to sit for a while have like a little cookie or something. Yeah. So I think, on one hand, it's part of our culture and, it will always be there. So we need to take the positive from this, consuming coffee quickly at the bar. May not be the best option when you are serving specialty coffee and, expensive, quality coffee, but it's still part of breaking the barrier between the barista and the consumer. So that is an occasion for maybe a more knowledgeable consumer to or more curious consumer to ask question to the barista. As you mentioned, when you are alone, you can still go to the buyer and have a coffee and maybe have a chat with, who's working there. So that's a good thing, but I also love when, you can take your time and sit down and and really enjoy the coffee. Even if he's espresso, it doesn't have to be drunk that quickly, you know. Yeah. No. Absolutely. That's so true. What I wanted to ask was besides the bar, which now I'm thinking of it is also relates to when you think about spirits as well. Like, if you go to a cocktail bar, it's the same kind of thing where you you wanna sit and if it's a good you know, spirit. I don't know whether it's a mezcal or an amaro or something. You wanna talk and understand what it is you're sipping. You don't wanna take a shot of it. Like Of course. Like, you're at a party. But but also that is an option. But anyways, back to my question, besides the the counter, is there an aspect of Italian coffee culture for you that will always be with you no matter how much you become an expert? Very stuffed. You mean to me personally? Yeah. That's a good question, actually. I I don't know because, it's difficult because the first time I started really consuming coffee, I was in the UK. When I was in Italy, I really didn't drink a lot of coffee So my way of having coffee and joining coffee and even ordering coffee is is really from different countries. So I can see many people what they do here, and I can tell you what's something that to me will never ever stop and is the fact that, I don't know if you've noticed this, but when, somebody order coffee, it doesn't really matter if they know or don't know, that co that type of coffee, they always put sugar, like immediately. Like, automatically. That's the thing I would never understand, and I don't think you will ever stop. Oh, yeah. It's funny because I don't know how familiar you are with, certain, like, Latin American cultures and whatnot, but it was something I found, like, that parallels, especially like Southern Italian culture, because, like, how bitter the coffee is, and they always make the with the sugar. Yeah. Yes. And and even, like, when you go, like, in, like, Puerto Rican households and stuff Like, you make a Cortadito and like they are in Cuban culture. They like mix the sugar. It's such a ingrained. Like, every time I go and I if I go because where I grew up, there's a lot of the Cubans and Puerto Ricans in in New Jersey. And they would always be like, you don't want sugar because I'm the same way. Like, I for me, I don't get why you'd always put sugar in things because I like to taste things, but then you soon realize that it's because all the coffees burnt, and you're like Exactly. But that's what we we we we love about here because we are trying to to let people understand that not all coffees are the same. So You can put sugar, of course, in those burnt and, and bitter coffees. But if you get served at really, really good quality coffee, you should at least try it before without sugar. And then funny enough, if you put sugar into higher acidity, driven coffee. It doesn't really make it sweeter. It makes it sour. It doesn't really work. So that's why I think communication, is one of the things, Italian coffee professionals need needs to work a little bit more on because I see many good quality coffees around, but, the communication between barista and consumer is, is not the best yet. Interesting. You know, that's actually a really big topic to open up. Because it at Towing coffee culture is so much about community. But the fact that it's lacking is interesting. Is there, like, currently any, like, organizations or anything kinda? Well, we have, the SCA Italian chapter, which is doing a great job. And, don't get me wrong. I I feel like, coffee professionals, here in Italy are doing a great job. But the the communication part to the consumers is always something very delicate since coffee is so much part of our culture. The consumer, even if he's not knowledgeable, thinks he knows about co good quality coffee. He's always very delicate to to speak with them and actually tell them what good quality is and and why coffee has some acidity, some sweetness. So, yes, I think communicating with with the consumer is is something we need to do a little bit better on, and and it's very challenging. So it's not it's not easy. Absolutely. No. It's you're making me think also about the wine world because it's slightly different, but there's still that aspect where you have to, you know, guide the consumer, but it's still delicate because people have their opinions and their preconceived notions. Exactly. And you don't wanna be, you know, seen as you are teaching them something. You you you still need to be, you know, polite and, and not pretend that you know every thing. That's that's one of the thing I I dislike about, about some professionals. Right? They they serve you maybe a really good coffee and they and if you don't know why it's so good, then they act like, They are the masters and they, you know, they're better than you. That's that's one of the things also that I don't really Yeah. Especially when it comes back to the fact that coffee is just like wine, just like, food, it's something that is best shared in in in, you know, best, having a conversation over. Like, you wanna feel comfortable when you're having it. Like, when people think about having their morning coffee, of course, it's about the coffee. But it's about that, like, moment of peace, that moment of of feeling good. And and you don't want somebody talking down to you when you're trying to have that moment. And but I wanna bring it back real quickly because I realized we didn't give enough spotlight to your brand, your brand, your your coffee company, peacocks Coffee. Can you tell us a little bit about the philosophy of your business? So, as I as I mentioned it, I start everything started when, when I moved to the UK, and, my experience, got me to to put together, my ID, my personal idea on on Coffee and my, if I lo, philosophy. So when I moved back to Italy, I wanted to, to share this experience with people. So peacock's coffee, was founded by me and my brother. And, our idea was to being able to share with the consumers in Italy, unique coffees. And by unique coffees, I mean, those coffees that when you when you try them, you really wanna know why they taste the way they they do. So, whether that's the origin, the variety, or even the the processing method, we wanted to make people curious about coffee. By by offering something that they cannot find in in Italy. So we started in this way and to five years later. So now we are happy to say that, we we're very well known in the industry in Italy, both because we we work with small producers and we we always source coffees with the identity. And also because during this time, I was able to to compete in coffee competitions in Italy and then represent Italy in the world, but it's the championship in two thousand and twenty two. So our idea of coffee really is renowned and and approved, I can say, by, by, by coffee professionals around the world. Is, the name peacocks because of, like, the beautiful different feathers of peacocks and how beautiful, like, in different coffees That's very, romantic. I wish I could say yes. I wish I wish I could say yes, but it's actually, the translation of a man's name, which is pavoni. And then, yeah, I wish I could say yes to that. Like, I could. Yes. But, yeah, we we wanted to keep everything in, even our name in, in English because, our experience in coffee is from the UK. So that's the the first That's the beautiful end. That's the idea we want to give you. So, tell us a little bit more about the coffees because I well, and I gave a little preview earlier, but I was fortunate enough to taste some of the really cool coffees that you have. But is there one that you find? Is I know they're all special to you and and you do all that great work in sourcing, but is there one you wanna highlight? Definitely. Yes. So we we always have a small, selection because we don't like to buy first of all, we don't have like huge volumes of sales like big, big, roasting companies. So we are able to purchase small quantities from small producers, and, we keep a selection that is always rotating. So depending on what's seasonal, what's what arrives to the roastery, what's tasting good, we we change the selection. And currently, we have these very interesting, coffee specie that, doesn't belong to the arabica, general or to or to the robusta's PC. It's called the XcelSA, and, it's a fantastic specie that has been, discovered in the in the in West Africa and is actually now, being cultivated in, in the Asia area. And more specifically, the one we bought is from India, from a producer called, And, the reason why I feel is so is so amazing and interesting is not just because the flavor is very unusual. It's quite, spicy and licorice. It's very interesting to, to try. But also because it's helping producers in, in Asia to overcome the climate change, challenges. So excess appears to be very resistant to, to drop period. And it requires very low intervention by the human hand. So it doesn't require a lot of work to grow healthy. And that compared to arabica, and even some robusta is is a benefit for sure. So, yeah, producers are rediscovering this PC, and I'm, I'm really happy to be probably the, the first one or one of the first one in Italy to have a Excel. And, people are loving it. That's it's well, I have some good questions, but one I'm on to say for anyone listening who doesn't know, there are multiple species, of, like, coffee bean. Right? But the most popular arabica in robusta. And excels as a different species. So it's taking it's it's another step out. So it's like a big step, which is something a lot of consumers don't know, and it's not their fault, because it's not necessarily, you know, on the package. People see a hundred percent Arabica, but they don't necessarily know what that means. So, which is so cool. And I'm I'm I was curious, and I wanted to ask before was, like, how did you find this producer in India? So we We always look for, unknown producers because, we, of course, buy, first of all, good quality coffee. And if that's coming from a big producer with a with a big name that everybody knows about it, that's that's great. But we are even more happy when we can, put the spotlight on somebody that is not very popular. And, the Mulemonai was a great example for us. So they they produce also a arabica, of good, very good quality and robusta. But then, I heard about, excels, which is this new, relatively new specie. And, they were one of those producer actually that, had excels are ready to ship to, to Europe. So that's why that's why we we wanted to collaborate with them. And then we tasted the coffee for the first time. It was amazing. I I felt in love with it. And then, yeah, we started working with them purchasing their coffee until a month ago where I was lucky to to be hosted in India by by these people and, and their coffee farms. So Akshay and Kumar who run the farms, and it was amazing to to be able to see the the coffee farms to talk with them, see how they produce the coffee. And, yep, that's that's probably my favorite part of my job. Being able to Absolutely. Because I think a big a big notion, and and it it goes for coffee, wine, food, anything. Is really closing that gap between the consumer and the producer. And because these supply chains, as you know, like bigger companies, coffee companies, they become so big, you know, because you have, you know, the coffee farm, but then you have you know, the processing and then you have the transportation and you have all this stuff and, like, trying to close that gap and and not just necessarily from the climate perspective, but also from, like, the educational perspective of the consumer knowing who's making the coffee because I think I remember when you were doing your presentation, you're like, is coffee made in Italy, like, produced in Italy, like, the the bean itself. And, even though you said saying, which is really cool. There's experimental, then you're it's not been you're sorry. I'm thinking why. Farm, sorry. In Sicily, it's not. It's, you know, and in in that's the most basic knowledge of it, but I I think it's so beautiful because also, like, naturally nobody, not nobody, but many people don't think coffee when they think India. They think many other things. I I think that's super cool. Yeah. And also you you mentioned these before, and it's not it's not people's fault. If they don't know. And, when they go, for example, buy coffee at supermarket and they see, well, they see what they see in the name of a coffee, the intensity probably of the coffee. And then if they're lucky, they see arabica or blend arabica and robusta. But that doesn't really mean much. As like a wine, wine label, you you have a lot of information about about everything, but variety, flavor profile, that's changing a little bit here too, but, we need to make people aware of, where coffee comes from in the first place because that's the most important part. Before we, you know, end our interview, I want to dive a little bit more into, how you see the future because you're super young, you're thirty years old, and so you're you're engaging with a lot of different people in the industry, but how do you see, like, you know, I don't I don't wanna just say, Oh, gen z, but, like, people your age in like under thirty. What are some changes in the way they're drinking coffee? I thought about this because, the the younger generation is definitely more focused and more, they they care a lot more about the climate issues, for example. So they tend to be a little bit more aware of what they consume. That doesn't really mean that they want to drink better coffee and they demand better coffee. But at least, the curiosity of knowing where the coffee comes from and knowing a little bit more information about, who produce that coffee, is in their head. And and that's really, really positive because it makes our job, so much more easy and also helpful. We can really put our knowledge to their, needs. And I hope this will, will always be increasing in in the near future. Regarding the the drinks, they they normally consume. I don't really know because I I I feel like I see a lot of, young people drinking the, you know, the big, tops of Starbucks milkshakes and all those kind of funny funny drinks. But I don't really see a lot of them, drinking specialty filter coffee, for example. So we don't have time to just open up this other can of worms, but it's so it's something very interesting to me because There's that side where people, especially with, how, you know, advanced social media has become. There's, like, this interest in in, you know, helping others throughout the world and caring about the climate, all this stuff, but then on the other side, with how, like, things like, like, businesses like Starbucks have grown and the access to that and, like, just kind of the superficial, like, side of that of having this big, pink drink. It's it also, like, takes the attention of teenagers. And it's or, like, not just teenagers but young people. I say teenagers because I think about the Starbucks in Verona. And it was I felt even though it was still very Italian in ways, I felt like I was back home because it was the place everyone was, like, hanging out. And they all wanted, like, frappuccinos and stuff. And I was like, what? Like, I was like, italy right now. What? And but it it's it's it's a big discussion, which, unfortunately, We are about at time, so we can't get into. So we'll leave a cliffhanger for the listeners. But before we go, we're gonna do our classic finish where we go over five things in well under five minutes. To wrap up and sum up, I'm more so, our interview today. And when you're ready, I'll get down to those five questions. Awesome. Yes. I I just wanna say it was, amazing to to have this chat with you. So Absolutely. Okay. Where are you? And what is your business and what's the line? So my business is a specialty coffee roasting company, and we focus on unusual coffees. Oh, is your featured roast today? Today, we've roasted a a chandraghiri variety, which is a and what's the best way to prepare it? Recommend preparing, our coffees with, filter coffee machines of different types, like manual put rollers, not espresso, but we're not gonna get into that. Anyways, and then last but not least, the biggest question of the mall, can you share your thoughts on Italy's beverage future and maybe share with us one trend? Yes. So as I as I mentioned, I I hope, in the future, we can see more filter coffee being brewed and consumed in coffee shops around Italy. So I really hope we we can we can put the the focus on on different alternative brewing techniques. That is not espresso. I don't want to remove it's espresso from, our culture, but I I wish you can talk to some of you. Alright. Perfect. Thank you so much. Definitely under five minutes. Gatsun Mille Mille Matel. It was so wonderful to chat. Thank you, Victoria. And, yes, so this is Matteo pavoni. Peacock's Coffee. You can find his coffee all over Italy and the world. We'll light all the details. And, yeah, thanks again. Thank you, Victoria. It was, awesome and, bye to all all the listeners. As always, a big good answer for hanging out with me today. Remember, you can catch me on the Italian wine podcast every Sunday and anywhere you can get your pots.