Ep 2396 McKenna Cassidy interviews Luca Paolo Virgilio of Caprera Winery in Abruzzo | Next Generation

The most fascinating thing about wine I mean, we all have our reason for being, you know, passionate or, or one lovers. But, I mean, for me, the most fascinating thing about wine is that there is no other product. And I don't even like to call it project in the sense, but it, it is, let's say, you know, a produce from the earth that can condense in itself so many different in the things. So there is, there is millennial history. There is traditions. There is geographical places. There is histories of people, family. Welcome to the Italian Mind Podcast. This is the next generation with me, McKhem Cassidy. For the next episode, I invite you Took's or with me what young adults are up to in the Italian wine scene. Let's feast on our discussion of Italian wine and culture. Grab a glass with us. Chinchi. Hello, everyone. I'm Makenna from the Italian wine podcast. So it's excited to be joined today by our special guest, Luca Paulo, Virgielo. Welcome, Luca Paulo. Good to have you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, and, big hello to everyone. I'm so happy to be here and, to be a special guest. Yes. It's gonna be awesome. You got the cool title today. And, but your normal title and also cool one is winemaker and co owner of Caprera from Pietranico in Abruzzo. And we're so excited to learn about, not only the farm, you have about twenty two hectares of land, four and a half of which are planted to vine, pecorino, Pasadena, and I'm a huge fan of your wines. I'm Like, I just drank them last week. I just love them, and I'm so excited to learn your perspective, but also the farm and what your overall project is on your land in Abruzzo. So we're so delighted to hear directly from you about your projects and also your life and get to know you more as a winemaker and as a person. So welcome Vietnamese. We're so excited for the conversation. So let's dive in. If you could introduce yourself, tell us who you are, where you're from, and what exactly do you do in the day to day, and we'll roll from there. Right. So what a marvelous introduction, it makes me feel very proud and flash a little bit. Anyway, I've tried my best and to be very sharp on that. So My name is Lucapaulo, which is actually two names. And, I'm forty years old. And as we were saying, it doesn't qualify me so much as, as a next generation, you know, a maker, but still, I'm a new one maker in a certain sense. So I'm from a brusso. So I was born and raised in a brusso, which is a tiny region in Central Italy. Most people that are familiar with Italian wine probably know where brusso is. I lived most of my, you know, youth in La Guila, which is the capital city, which is a city in the mountains. So not quite, especially in the, in the past, not quite an area, used to winemaking or to make, like, good wines at least. But then I studied the political science. I studied in Rome, a little bit abroad, then I I took a master in London, so I went a little bit, you know, around. I had the different plans when I was young for my future. It wasn't really plants. You know, I was just, you know, trying my way. And I started working into social research back in Rome at the time, and that was the time I started falling in love with wine. It was actually a specific revelation, drinking a wine, one day, by definition, a so called natural wine that opened, you know, up all the ways of Do you remember what the wine was? Absolutely. It was a Trebiano, which was, but it's from Sicily from, the producer, the Webmaker Franchesca Huuchone, who's actually, I think, a great person. And, a wonderful guy that I met, and we became friends after that. But, that's where my journey started. But other than that, I mean, I started this when I was twenty eight, together with my father's best friend. So I wanted to make wine at some point. You know, it was kind of snow and gradual approach that went through organizing an artisanal wine fair with some friends in a very remote village of a brute. So so, you know, a brute is this kind of still small, very traditional, very family centered environment. It's it's just southern region. It's the north of the south of Italy, or it's, you know, the the south of the center depending on how you look at it, but it's still a very traditional and very genuine authentic place. To be and leave. It's very much still connected to the land, to farming. Most people still have their own piece of land. So I think it's, it's some place where, you know, growing up still keeps you especially if you're out of the main cities that are still small, very much linked to nature and, you know, life, a juror and so on. So, yeah, well, I mean, the project of Capera is is pretty new. I mean, it's just, thirteen years, which is pretty much nothing in the one making. I have just nine harvests in my background in my personal history. Sometimes they seem, you know, they feel like they are many, but actually they are not. It's like I just started. So still, you know, finding my way, experimenting, and going I mean, I will be like that, I think, for, first of our life. So Do you know what's the difference in your outlook and attitude from your first and second vintage to your eighth and ninth vintage? How has your attitude changed. Are you more stressed, less stressed, more creative, less creative? What's that been like? So so, unfortunately, stress is a is a big factor in my life. So it seems that I'm very much, you know, as my invisible friend was always with me But I'm getting to manage it better. The thing is, I mean, of course, there's been a great change in, you know, the self awareness, experience. It's not just that I became more secure, of course, of what I'm doing or what, at least, you know, some core parts of my activity, but it's also on the other end running a winery farm in this case. But, I mean, in general, any sort of enterprise is also discovering and finding new coming across new challenges you know, every time. So it's an ongoing process. It's a never going process. But, of course, I feel, you know, more secure in many things, but I have to say, you know, probably the things that are most valuable in which I made more progress are general management of everything. And by everything, you know, it really means everything. The people around them, you know, the the actual things to do and the planning and so on, but it's still a long way to go. A very long way to go. And, you know, second key aspect to the people around us, around me and the people that are working, the entrepreneur, the people that are, you know, partners or wanna be partners, because this is still, you know, a company, and we started this in two. We are still two, but probably will be two again in the future. So, but in a different setting. So the other thing is, is a crucial part of, of my situation, you know, That's awesome. Let's talk about the farm a little bit. I'm interested because many wineries don't have like a separate farm necessarily or a cohesive farm rather. Since we can't go there physically at this moment, could you describe it to us? Tell us, you know, it's twenty two hectares. Is it very hilly? Where's the barn? Like, how do you have where the vine situated next to the other crops, the the barley, the wheat, the woodlands, etcetera? What's the space like? So thanks for asking because this is the very probably the one most important point for me to in describing where we are and what we do and what we are actually because that's exactly the reason why I'm there. Why I chose to settle there because, you know, I started from scratch. We bought the property. So we had no family background, no personal history in the property. So why we chose that place? We are in a marvelous place. I mean, for sure. Most producers probably every producer in the world would would say the same. But, really, I happen to, you know, to have, like, guests visiting us, clients, you know, importers. And actually, a few of them, several of which Americans as well, they really say that that was probably the most beautiful place they've ever been when it came to being near San Diego. So the thing with Pietranico and and Cabrera, of course, I mean Cabrera is just as most lies of this beautiful territory, is the actual wilderness and greenness and nature and the variety and the diversity of nature that you have there. So you have to keep in mind that the Brew zone is the one region in Europe. So the one small local region in Europe with the highest percentage of surface that is made of protected natural areas. So we are very tiny. You can drive, like, in less than two hours from one side to another, from the mountains to the sea, three thousand meters altitude to zero. Probably even less than two hours. It's very tiny, very concentrated, but the diversity is huge, and it's very wide. So we have big mountains, we have the lakes, we have forests, and then we have this very traditional, typical Italian, Hill countryside, Nothing to say against that. It's amazing, but that is not quite the average task and, you know, postcard that most people would think it's wild. So, I mean, if you just step out from our seller, Caprera, You have this rocky mountain in front of you, the top of which is very rocky, and then it starts being, like, you know, green, and then the forest. And then you have the wheat fields. And then you have the breeds and then the olive trees and some vineyards here and there. The place is super wide. It's also populated, so that makes it also wilder. And unfortunately, that's the the other side of the coin. It's been farming, especially as being increasingly abandoned over the last decade. So nature is taking over and over and over, but that makes it a super wild place. So cabrera is twenty two actors, some vineyards, some olive trees, I mean, manually trees, six hundred, but there is actors of forest. It's very diverse. It's very hilly. It's very, you know, different exposures. One part is actually facing the algalic sea, which is thirty five minutes drive away, but you can't see it and really smell it. We name a wine after the wind and salt coming from the sea. Another part is really enclosed in the mountains so you feel like you are in your hole, in your nest, like a wild animal. So diversity, wilderness, and nature at its best. It sounds like the question that, like, some couples when they're dating at each other, or, like, friends ask each other. They're like, do you wanna live in the mountains or the sea? And then, like, a dividing thing here. You should basically. Why choosing? You know? The answer is yes. Why choosing if you can have both. We are definitely more by the mountains. Definitely. We are the feet of the mountains. Pretty high for around the fifth, five hundred years above the sea level. We grow olive trees. We grow ancient varieties of wheat. We have been making past, recent rears and some flour. But, of course, growing vines, and, it's the main thing. I mean, making wine is the main thing. What's the tradition between the farming and the Vasque, which there's, you know, different forms of Vasque that are not called Vaskia elsewhere in the country, but, like, can you talk about Davaskia, and why are they there? And what's the association with the farming that's now being abandoned? Of course. Of course. Absolutely. So to explain the people who will listen to this Vaskia are stone business So naturally occurring rocks found on the land, you know, especially in a precise area of Petronico, which is the hill facing west side, which is the one where where the main side of Cabrera is located. Which is called Vasca, like Vasca area named after them, of course. These natural rocks have been over the centuries used. Well, they were hand carved to obtain basins used for grape crushing. So the rocks were there in place, of course, they the people couldn't ever move such big rocks. And they would use those rocks, outstanding example, human ingenuity and the relation between, you know, the, of course, the farming relation with the earth, with the soil, the work that people were doing, but at the same time, they need to make the work, which was already super, super, like, filled with effort and human, like, really physical fatigue, making it a little bit easier. So at least trying to avoid what, I mean, the the effort that could be about it. So the point of the basket was the place was mostly covered with vineyards and olive trees at the time. Vineers and olive trees. Pietranigos always been since at least the thirteenth century, a place popular in the area for buying rowing. Not winemaking. When making was a home thing, it's like, you know, something that people would do for their, for doing consumption, but most of the production would live and be sold elsewhere. But most of the grapes would be crushed on-site right where the vineyards were located in order to just get the mask and, you know, get rid of the waste, the skins, and the seeds, and everything else being the waste. Imagine that it's still today, the people that still make wine at home. They have my maybe a small vineyard, you know, they are in Priton Eagle in the area. When they make multiple channels, our main red wine, they do not use the skins. So they just press it and just for men, the the mask without skin. So it was a tradition, but it was a tradition also related to the climate that was much colder in the past. So maturation was really difficult. So they would get rid of the unbright part of the skins and the seeds. They would make it easier to just trust for the product, you know, and sell it as well. So Okay. That's helpful. That makes a ton of sense. It's such an interesting feature and nice that you get to, like, incorporate those in that they're on the land that you purchased anyway. What's your philosophy for this whole project? Why are you doing this? This is so different from political science in London. You have a sense of fulfillment in this. There's something you want to convey about this place and, like, it fulfills you. Tell me about that. So I think reaching the dessert, you know, reason the most really inner deep reason why I'm there is probably gonna be the quest of my life and probably we can go back to this in twenty or thirty years, but I'm starting to put the pieces together besides being a truck you know, to wine, of course, being in the open air, doing something on my own, actually creating something from my hands, being deeply rooted, you know, to something. I've always been someone who's searching for the deeper, you know, meaning in things. On what I was doing. So even the social policy thing, I'm still interested in those matters. Absolutely just not as a job. You know, I'm interested in social matters in what regulates, you know, relations between people, you know, countries. Politics and so on, but not the gossipish, like, aspect of it. It's like the actual, you know, things behind, the dynamics behind. So I think that what I'm trying to pursue here is, first of all, expressing myself, of course, something that everyone should be doing. But I think I was really searching for some stronger connection with the origin of of something of life and everything. And I'm seeing that they really needed to, as a person that otherwise is normally, you know, in the world of the ideas, thinking, and overthinking, and, over overthinking. And, you know, I was probably kind of attracted to just the opposite, you know. So being in deeply with it, you know, informing you have to be there to do things no matter, you know, whether regularly every season they change, but at the same time, they're still always the same. So it's an exercise of patience of, like, consistency. And, I don't know if that is actually answering your question. It got a little bit lost in in in that, but, and, of course, it's making wine. And then the old meaning of wine is something that, you know, would open up a totally new debate. What's, like, a non wine related thing that you love about living in a rutso? Beside from far do you like to do for fun? So the one thing I think is mostly interesting and captivating about a brusso is, and that's something that everybody that visits a brusso even for a couple of days in fines, it's a very still quite peaceful place where you can live in his life. I mean, we all live stress life and we have our problems, of course, but still compared to the problems that you have in major cities or in richer areas. You have a lot of nature. You have a lot of rural life. You have a lot of actual connections and human bonds. So, especially out of the main cities, there is strong. You know, the people are often arguing. There are all these jealousies of especially in the small towns, but there is people that talk, but know each other, there is this kind of social, like, control, and, the kids can just, you know, run outside and play freely, and nobody's worried. So this is one thing. There is this general feeling of being in a place in an area that is still connected to its tradition and to the past, which doesn't mean, you know, it's, outdated or it's just authentic. It's genuine. Food is great, nature is great, landscapes are great. You can ski. You can go to the beach. You can surf. And you can just hike, climb, go, by the lakes to wonderful walks in the mountains. And, there are big nice cities and nice towns. You're gonna have great wines, and that's enough, I would say, you know, to explain why it's nice to live in a Brewestone. What do I do? What do I do for fun? Well, partly I do some of the things I mentioned. I have to say a lot of time. I rather relax or try to relax because, still, I mean, there is not much space left for fun during the most challenging, at least the most intense periods of work. But the one thing I like, the most out of work is traveling and it So I do travel. I love exotic, exotic traveling. So going to remote places, seeing other cultures like Asia, Africa, whatever. And, luckily, my partner is as eager as me, probably even more for traveling and eating. I mean, eating and drinking is, like, probably the greatest pleasure I have in life. And, I try to do that as much as I can. Last than, I would like to. This is awesome. What is one of the foods that makes your wines shine the best. Whether it's the Chapiano or the Salavento, like, what food pairing goes really well? So that's a good question to for someone is, very, very bad that preparing. But because, you know, they've asked me that for What it's just what you like to eat with it. So I would start from the wines because my favorites are Pegorina and Sherozolos. So probably a little bit better. I would do the the the the my short pairings with the with that. So one thing I love, and Abruzzo, Okay. Here is one of the most traditional foods dishes you can find here all over the region. It's, you know, shape and lamb. So the famous Arostichaney, you know, the chopsticks made of, shape meat. And lamb. Lamb, we do it in, you know, all possible ways, roasted or, you know, BBQ, but one of my favorite is a very traditional recipe is also with eggs and lemon, but My favorite is probably, it's pan fried, you know, with, covered with, with, grated bread crumble, and then it's, it's fried, deep fried. So it's this slices of, of lamb, fresh blamed meat that got fried, and they are, well, one of the most, like, savory things that you can ever taste in wood and cherise swallow, which is a great wine. With mine or someone else, it doesn't matter. They do, I think, a perfect pairing, and it really makes you taste, you know, a brusso. It's something like it's substantial. It's not just are more for traditional cooking than, gourmet. I like, of course, both experiences, but effort for the date experience, of course, traditional and non cooking. Yeah. I heard that. That sounds amazing. Absolutely. Okay. One more rapid fire question, and then we'll go back to our philosophy. So what's your favorite plant to farm? That's not that is funifera. And then what's your favorite vine? Coming to the plant. So probably there is one, but I cannot mention here immediately because, you know, we have different laws than the US. Oh. No. I'm just kidding. I'm not I've never been a grower in that sense, but, you know, you can We're not allowed to grow certain things. Yep. I've heard. Well, I think I think you are in the US. I don't even most most states at least. Yes. No. Well, I love tomatoes. I love the tomato plants. They are so different. They're man, but, but, I mean, the the one thing I love the most about the tomato plant. Another one is the cherry tree, sour cherry, like wild cherry. It's the fact, the, the very act of picking, the, well, I mean, you can do it from, also from vines. You do it, but the act of picking you know, cherries or tomatoes and eat them right away on the spot. I mean, some, right, you are sometimes, you know, like, just, thirsty. And instead of drinking some water, you grab this super red, fully ripe tomato, so savory. Filled with Jews, but very concentrated and you eat it. I mean, I love the plant. That plant is amazing, and I love the smell of the plant. Of course, I love the flowers of the cherry trees, and that's amazing. And they announce spring coming, but of course there is olive trees. I mean, those are amazing plants at least for up two thousand years. So they are majestic. And there is some respect that they feel, you know, when I look at the plants and I'm, by them. So it's more than one, but I love them all. I love actually. A lot of plants, but, these are probably the three favorite that we have in the farm. This is awesome. And about the vine variety, I wouldn't say there is this one I like, most. I mean, they're all nice in their way. So I can tell a few differences. Montipul channel, like, is very wide. It's like, it's like a song that never obeys, you know, because you put it, like, straight like this, and you try to constrain it to to, you know, standing and grow, like, vertical like that, but it doesn't comply. Never. So it just goes wherever he wants. And, it's super, on the other end, Pequering is very aristocratic. You know, it just, grows, like, so linear and stands by itself, and it's very slim. So it's noble. And to some extent, I mean, I, I like the wilder side of other vines better. Yeah. Probably, Trebillon is something in between. One thing about Tribunebillon is super expressive, super vigorous. So you have these big, like, leaves. You have these big branches, these huge, like, bunches. So it's super powerful. I really love them all. Yeah. I really love them all. This is awesome. Thank you for sharing this. So I want to, as we bring our conversation towards its completion, you hinted at something earlier about the meaning of wine and how that would crack open a whole other conversation. But I wonder what you meant by that. And then also how we were speaking before we started recording the podcast about kind of wine as a cultural product or a matter of taste and how the, speed and the desire for immediate gratification of perhaps new friends of wine or new drinkers of wine might be in contrast to the richness and the meaning behind wine, but also can come together like the third coast swath you visited in Chicago and you saw many young people enjoying the natural wines. So first, like, what do you mean by the meaning behind the wine and take your time to explain? And then how does that connect if at all to that kind of cultural product versus a matter of taste in wine? Thank you for asking. That's, of course, a big, like, issue, big thing to just develop here in a very few minutes, but I've tried to, my best at least, to give an idea of what I think. So the most fascinating thing about wine, I mean, we all have our reason for being, you know, passionate or, or one lovers. But, I mean, for me, the most fascinating thing about wine is that there is no other product. And I don't even like to call it project in the sense, but it, it is, let's say, you know, a produce from the earth that can condense itself so many different and deep things. So there is, there is millennial history. There is traditions. There is geographical places. There is histories of people family. Why do the people have been growing, buying for centuries and killing for it and being killed for it. And, you know, how do you say, like, bringing, like, this in keeping it through generations. And why is it, has it been so precious for so many different, like, parts of society? So wine is not just something to, you know, be pleased for drinking it, like, while having, a nice dinner, which is, of course, a big part of it. But it's all I mean, in that class of wine, you can find, I mean, a concentration of culture that is, you know, second to nothing else in the world. So when we discuss about wine, when we talk about wine, just in terms of a commercial product, I understand. I mean, that part of the market. Of course, it's a different part of the market. It's the big industry. It's the widest production of wine in the world. So, I mean, it's okay. It's a different thing. But wine is really something beyond, and we should never forget, and we should never neglect to mention that wine is first and foremost a product of the earth and a cultural product. So when we think on how to, I don't know, to engage like the younger generations, I don't think we should leave the path of culture because I think in that path, there can be a stronger traction or also for the younger generations. And younger people are, unfortunately, exposed to a whole, a whole set, like, of incredibly intense stimulus that come from, you know, technology. So, like, the social and phones and everything is so quick. And wine is not quick. Wine needs to be slow. I mean, it it requires some patience, some attention, some. You don't have to study to enjoy wine, but, at least, I mean, if you really wanna connect with it and listen to it, you need to give it the right time and attention. So a natural wines, I mean, the most simple, very basic, very direct natural wines are a great way of engaging the younger generations. I've seen, you know, bunches in many countries around the world, especially out of the western world, emerging countries. This guys drinking wine and drinking the easiest thing, the cheapest and the lower, colleagues. So, you know, this, like, pad knot natural. Great way to engage them to make them, you know, to bring them to wine, but then let's not leave the path of, you know, wine as as a cultural product as something rooted in the earth, rooted in traditions, making like deep, meaningful wines and telling meaningful stories. Wonderful. Thank you so much for all of your perspectives. I think that we could talk for, like, eight hours and never exhaust all of the We'll keep we'll keep talking after this Yes. It's true. I wanna thank all of the listeners for joining us today. And before we wrap, I would just like to say thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability with Apollo for sharing all of the details that you did. Is there anything else you would like the listeners to know out. Capreira, Abruzzo, yourself, your philosophy that can help them get to know you more through the pod. Well, just, check out. I mean, I would more be a testimonial of my land, Abruzzo. So please check out Abruzzo, go look for it in the in the web, just check out amazing places. You can spot there and visit Abruso and visit cabrera, of course, once you're here. And, try abruso wines. You'll find them in the US, and, many other countries in the world. And, that's it. I mean, thank you for having me and waiting for giving me this opportunity. To tell about our myself and the farm. Wanna yeah. I wanna go to the, the, like, caves with the water and the slag type. Very nice. Very nice and so chilly at summer. You have, like, this thirty and thirty five degrees outside, and then it's fourteen inside. They're very close to my hometown, and I've been there more than once. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Really. So cool. There's so much to be explored and enjoyed. I can't wait. Well, thank you again. Thanks so much for being here with me today. 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