Ep. 1752 McKenna Cassidy Interviews Xiaowen Du of Avignonesi | The Next Generation

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This is the next generation with me, your host, Mckenna Cassidy. For the next thirty minutes, I invite you to explore with me what young adults are up to in the Italian wine scene. Today, let's fees on our discussion of Italian wine, travel, food, and culture. Thank you for being here. Grab a glass with us. Chinching. How, Taudia? I am Makenna. I'm here with Shawanne Du. We're here talking about Avianjezi winery. And it's such a treat to be with you, Sean. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited for our conversation. We're gonna talk about Avianne Yee, the winery, and we'll talk about under thirties, like, what's going on in wine and food culture, travel different marketplaces. So would you just briefly introduce Avanese winery to us and explain your role there? So, yeah, Munese is a winery, let's say, regenerated itself in two thousand and nine, when our new owner, Virginia Service, she bought one array in two thousand and nine. So from that point onwards, she did a lot of, like, theoretical changes for the one array. So she changed the one array entirely organic than valve dynamic. So now we are organic and valve dynamic certified for the entire operation. We are in multiple channel in Tuscany, so it's a very beautiful area to be in. So we make like we know normally we have super tuscans but we also have, like, our marriage relationship's been sent to making there. So, yeah, my personal name, my name is Xiawan. You can call me Xia. It's simply in Italian, you know, Chow is such a magical word. Hi and is also goodbye. So I say, okay, just come and name. Yeah. So that is like very easy to remember. So my job title, I am Nunez is I'm the marketing manager and the system one maker at Wanna it's wonderful. And what was your journey, like, kind of getting to this role? Just your how did you get there? Okay. So I came to Italy in twenty sixteen. Okay. So firstly, through a program company for your master, first year is in France. And second year, we had to choose another European country. I chose Italy. I chose Marona. That's how I came to Marona, in two thousand sixteen. So after graduation in two thousand seventeen, I started to work with Stevie, adventally international. So I worked there for four years, almost four years before moving on to Ammunozi. Oh, that's great. Were you part of winemaking anywhere else before you started Avianozi? I definitely I trained as a one maker. So back in school, I mean, two thousand fourteen. So I did a vintage, did a harvest, in Bordeaux, and two thousand sixteen. And there's a harvest in California, in Sonoma Coast. Okay. So that's kind of my one making canoe experience. Oh, that's wonderful. Do you have a favorite grape to identify? Best relationship with any grapes? At that moment, how to say San Diego Beisse? Yeah. Yes. That's awesome. So we're sitting before a beautiful bottle of, you know, which is of course a hundred percent San Duve, say, this is the twenty thirteen vintage, so you did not have a hand in making this because you didn't. No, weren't there yet. But it is obviously the flagship grape and one of the most important Italian red grapes. And what is the personality of San Jose from your perspective? Like, when you're working with it in the vineyard, in the seller. How would you describe Sandeoese to someone who has never met Sandeo USA? Yeah. Sandeoese, I think it's definitely a picky grape in the vineyards. Like, you need to take a lot of care to the vineyard. And just walking along the road of Sandeoesee, you see the bigger bunches to smaller bunches, it changes even within the row. So, which is such a big diversity in terms of the grape variety. Okay. And so the, like, our multiculturalist, LSUo Gaurini, He's doing a lot of work in the vineyard, and he's observing. So what's really happening in the vineyard. Okay. So, yeah, it's a great. He needs a lot of attention, a lot of care. He's definitely quite demanding grave that help you stay. A little bit. Sensitive. But it knows how great it is. So it gets to act this way. We'll still work with it. Yeah. So in the cellar, actually, it's very delicate. Great. That's why I'm using, like, since, and I said, from twenty sixteen, it's moving away from Barrick, kind of fermentations. So we use a big task for our San Jose because the flavor of San Diego is so delicate. So we don't want too much oak to power up like the real beauty and delicate aromas of San Okay. So you'll use large six hundred liter casks instead of small two hundred and fifties. Yeah. Yeah. We use, like, a tonal, but sometimes it's mainly old tonal. So we don't want to add too much a roller to the one. Sure. And the majority of us will use this of traditional cask. Wow. And some of your casks obviously are using to the point where they're fully neutral. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So they've been used over and over, but it lets the fruit like flush out a little bit and wake up when it's in that. Like, so it still has an impact on the wine. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's awesome. So I was reading so much about your winery. It's like really just cool to learn about, but the Pia de Cove, could you explain that and You do that with all the grapes that you've been a five or only some? No. All the grapes. Okay. Yeah. So basically, like, about one week or two weeks before the harvest. Uh-huh. Like our one makers, all the vineyard team, they will break in the end, the new fruits and just select a bunch of the new fruit and start to ferment, by itself. So this stage is basically spontaneous fermentation, with the east. So we will, like, observe very carefully under the microscope to see what's happening with ease is a healthy. Oh, yeah. It's enough to kick off and start and finish the fermentation. Okay. So there's a lots of observation under the microscope to make sure, like, we can have the most healthy Sure. Bunch of ease. And it's different batches as well. Okay. So it's not just one that we inoculate all the tanks. So, yeah, based on the grapes, we harvest white grapes for the white purity cool. And we harvest also for San Diego. We said the PAT pool, so many different batches to make sure we have the fresh yeast. So it's a lot of observation as well in this stage to make sure, like, we have, like, the house at East for the winter. Okay. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp, for fascinating videos covering Stevy Kim, and her travels across Italy and beyond. Meeting winemakers, eating local food, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. What might prohibit a winery from doing Pieticou because not many other wineries openly advertise like, here's how we start our fermentation. I don't feel like it's that unique, but not many people are sharing that they're doing that. So is it because it requires so much surveillance and analysis that many people will just either they don't do the PD coupe, they just inoculate, like, regularly in the big tank with all the grapes. Like, they're not using a test run. So anyway, like, why might someone use PD coupe versus not So it's a definitely a choice, the style of the winery. Okay. Some, like, bigger winery. You know, Nancy, we consider ourselves as medium to large wineries with our one hundred and seventy hectares. Okay. So it's relatively large. In terms of the production. Okay. So in this scale, like, to actually doing the Pirdi Krum is a lot of work for our. It feels like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a massive amount of work. Many different batches and like Yeah. Wow. And so many observations with the numbers and they need to calculate the different type of east instead of the microscope, then they have the number then to really understand what's going on with the east. So it's a lot of work, but I like the explanation done by our committee, Carlos O' Garini. He explained to us, so basically, this way, by a lot of observation, we build a relationship with our products. You. I was just thinking of that word relationship. Like, you have tighter connection. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of attention and you observe then that connection you have with the products, then you can make the best you can basically. It makes so much sense now. I understand. Oh, fabulous. And so the Pieticouv is similar to a sourdough starter, as they say, but for someone who wants to understand more. And then talk to me about the different expressions of wine that Avenue z produces the Vino Nobula as their flagship, of course, but then there's a fifty fifty line and multiple others. Would you describe briefly those? Yeah. Of course. Now we have listed Nobula here. It's definitely our flagship once. And this year also, in particular, we have this new launch of this ten year later release. Okay. So you can see the vintage two thousand thirteen. So we harvest the grapes in two thousand thirteen. So the first batch of launch we already done in the past in twenty sixteen. So it's a ten year late release. Yeah. So it's the same like one to one. It's the ten year anniversary. Perfect. Perfect. It's perfect. It's a very special year for us. Celebrate with Avie Munsey. Is that the only one? Yeah. So it's kind of our, like, basically saying no delay can't age and we want to share the aging potential with our customers. Yeah. Like this year, we only have seven hundred bottles for this twenty thirteen late release. So from next year on, we have two thousand fourteen, twenty fifteen. So each year we will launch this ten year later release and the numbers will go up as well. So, yeah, this is definitely our signature ones, and we want to let people know, like, from no delay, even we called pruniello gentile. Yeah. So there is a gentle side of our sons of wayside, but there is also strong aging potential. So this is a one to enjoy, like, when we have a milestone in life, we want to celebrate something. So we can we can use these ones. That's great. Yeah. How would you describe the flavor here of this versus a young? You don't know if you like. There is more like tertiary flavors coming out. It still has that typical kind of sour cherry kind of nose, but in this stage is more like a jammy kind of sour cherry, like the amarena cherry sauce. So, yeah, it's a very small intense and yeah, there are other flavors as well, like cider note with the aging potential, it definitely more integrated with everything. And, yeah, it has a good structure as well. So it still, like, has time to age. Like, if you want to age, there's still potential there, but it's perfect moment to enjoy. Like, it has always a nice territory flavors at a same time. It has, like, loose freshness inside of the one. It's very, very interesting. A youthful heart in a mux. And for those who can't see this gorgeous label before us, it's a black label with almost graffiti, like spray paint, paint bursts on the background and, hand drawn, like glass of wine, and eye heart wrote next to the Vino Noville. So it's it's a very youthful modern and inviting. It kind of leads into my next question. I know Shao earlier, where we're talking about in order to move forward in life and in the wine industry, you have to understand and a little bit of tradition so that you know the direction you're going away from and something you're going to and sometimes traditions involved in where you're going to. But what do you think it might take for new friends of line? To fall in love with a wine as gorgeous as this. Not only is it inviting to look at, but as we think about the wine industry as a whole and the younger, the next generation, you know, where are we going based on the tradition that this wine embodies, but how are new friends of wine gonna encounter this? Like this label actually really a good example of how we're inviting, like, a younger generation to try our traditional overlay. Mhmm. Because from the label, you can still see the very traditional label at the background, then, like, always fancy decoration is very inviting. It's for people to celebrate, like, their special moment in life. Uh-huh. And also for young people, I think there's quite inviting as well. They have celebrations, so they are fireworks, and they are very small details to show, is it a good moment to share with your friend? Like bubbles and pop like like firecrackers. That's awesome. Yeah. It's a it's a beautiful way for them to start. Actually, in our country, we have another project once with amphora. And this is another very beautiful label and, the name of the wines that the that the actually is Chinese, it means mother earth because amphora is coming from the earth's wealth and for us. Like, we have two batches of amphoras, one is from a local producer, and the other one is actually we took the soil from our vineyard and make those amphoras and to use that to find the age ones. Amazing. Oh, yeah. Wait. I'm ringing Terawar to the whole next level. That's me, we're interested in projects. For those who might be learning about wine and not familiar with m for m for our very large ceramic holders for wine, many, many. How many liters? Like, three hundred, four hundred? Yeah. Like three hundred liters. Yeah. I think something around that. So very large, like bigger than a smaller barrel and not made of what made of like a concrete kind of form of terracotta made from the earth. So that's what Shouse speaking about here. Wow. When was that created? Like the first time that they made it from the soil? First wind page was twenty eighteen. Okay. Yeah. Oh, so We haven't tried the wines yet from that. Have we? Oh, no. We we already are. Yeah. Yeah. The first vintage released in two thousand eighteen. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. So most recently, we also released white one because we had that de rosso since two thousand eighteen. Nice. But that the bianco The white one started from twenty twenty one. So, yeah, we have, like, this project basically are going back to the indigenous groups of Tuscany. Right. And for example, inside of the white one, we have a grape called and this grape is, basically, our ready culture list has to go to the old abandoned vineyard to get the cuttings for this grape. Right. Yeah. Then grafted on our, like, rootstock. Are they established? Yeah. So in Italy, I think at the moment, we only have six hectares of our PQ. Avenue, they have fifty percent of it. We have three hectares of our PQ. So it's a group with, quite a low yield. A big seed and very small berries. So it's not very productive. But that's why in the past, when the quantity is focused, it's kind of abandoned in the past, but now it's back to actual new trend because this group has the trait of it can maintain the acidity very well. One degree breach, like, full maturity. Okay. So in the time of climate change, that's a more valuable trait at the moment. Is that fascinating to adapt to the present of the future. We go back to the abandoned past and grab the vine that's still giving life and still able to grow and plant it now, it perfectly suits our time even though it was forgotten in a sense How special? It's like it was waiting for us to find it. That's great. Yeah. You know, the core value of Amienese is to be a good ancestor because our owner has a vision of passing down like the vineyard and the winery to her son and the grandchildren. So, yeah, this is the long term projects. And also, like, for younger generation, I think it's more relevant to them, whether one area is doing good things for the planets, whether the earth will be still very good for our ones in the future. Mhmm. So, yeah, to have this long term vision, like, we go back to the indigenous group because as if you see it from a long distance, like, if maybe in a hundred years, that's a very valuable access phone, like, future generations. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's very inspirational. Oh, it's wonderful, like, you're, okay, I'm making a choice now. Is this a good choice for my children and my grandchildren? And, yes, the twenties and thirty year olds these days are very we're invested in that because we see it firsthand, like, climate change and things like that. We want to be aware and make informed choices. And it sounds like two year. So Evan Nese is also trying to build this inclusive and equitable economy in a way that like you said, like, around the theme of regeneration, which is something you've exhibited with the PQ grape as well, like very plainly. So is that tying into the B Court movement? Could you explain what that means for people not familiar? Yeah, for sure. Okay. So it'll be a carpet way to got certified B corp last year, in August. Oh, great. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Wonderful. Yeah. It's, a recognition like what we're doing in the vineyard. Okay. So we became a benefit company back in twenty twenty one. Okay. To apply for being a big car, there's a lot of procedure need to be done before we're getting certified. This certification is very good because it give you a way to benchmark yourself. Like which part you can improve on? Like, how do you trade your employee? Do they feel part of the community? And how do you give back to the community? So all this element will give us a direction and where we should go so we set goals each year. Say, okay. So this year, we want to achieve even further on that. For example, for the community, we have this English lessons for for the children of our employee, but also children in the local community. Oh. Yeah. Because, our owner, like, notice, like, it's very important for our region, like, for tasking me to have the people who can speak English, who can explain the beautiful place. Then if the children grow up, they can speak English, and they don't need to live such a beautiful country and go to the city to work. That's true. Yeah. So it's all about investing the future generation. And so those things are valued by the v corp kind of assessment. And, yeah, also, there are many other things to help us to keep moving forward and improve on ourselves and keep giving back to community. Wow. The next next generation. Yeah. Next generation. Exactly. It's so it's such a mindful approach, and your owner is from what country? From Belgium. Belgium. Okay. That's awesome. So go and do the neighbors were they thinking negatively when that that she purchased the winery or was it a welcome choice? Like, in the beginning, for sure, because she is from a shaping backgrounds. Okay. So it's it's quite different backgrounds. So at the beginning, I I believe, people have doubts, but then she proved herself over the years. Like, she was pioneering, for example, one hundred percent something we said for the then the rest of the neighbor follows. So, yeah, then she set a good example for the people actually in the community. Like I told you yesterday, like, in our one area, we have people from twenty nationalities working there in the countryside of Tuscany. That is something really amazing, and I'm very proud to be part of the team. So I think she bring in the global vision, to the company and also to local community. When they see a good example, like people from different nationalities can contribute very well together to a bigger projects and even prepare for future generations. And they feel inspired, and they consider, yeah, she is actually investing in this property and it's going to be very healthy, like, kind of environment for the future generations. Oh, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like a a way of leadership, like, to have a way of leadership of diversity and inclusion and sustainability, like, long term timeless planning, and then to honor the land or she is and the ancient grapes that come there and to do it in such a way where the community who was there before she showed up is now following her lead. That's such an amazing, literally regeneration of that space. Sounds it's a success so far. I can't wait to see what Moore is coming. Come visit our winery and meeting us everything firsthand. It'll be a treat. Thank you, Shaao. I can't wait. Well, this is beautiful. Is there anything else you'd like to share about the connection between yourself, between Avanese, between the world before we wrap? In the end, I would like to invite people to taste which haven't been released yet. It will be released by the end of November. Our two thousand thirteen late vintage release. We don't know blade monitor channel. It's the one to honor our core value as a good ancestor and to show the eligibility of no ballet. So definitely a one. I will invite everyone to share. And this year, only have seven hundred photos. So only the lucky one can. So share it. Thank you. That is such a treat learning from you today. I feel inspired and excited, so I think that's hopefully the goal. So, Chincin, and to more of you know Nobile for us. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Tante grazier for joining me today. Remember to catch our episodes weekly on the Italian wine podcast. Available everywhere you get your pods. Salute.