Ep. 2134 Karla Ravagnolo interviews Michele Griggio | The Next Generation

European varieties of biggest winifer are crossed with mostly American species. And the goal is to reach the best possible balance between natural resistance to fungi and neurological quality. The resistant is brought by the America DNA, and the winemaking quality is obtained from preserving the most part of European DNA in this crossing. These are essentially PB. Welcome to another episode of the Italian wine podcast, the next generation series, where we aim to answer one simple question. What are the new generations up to when it comes to wine and fruit. My name is Carla Ragnolo. Join me as we dive into the latest trends in Italian wine. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Italian wine podcast. My name is Carla. I'll be your host for this episode of the next generation series. Today, I want to look at a topic that many have touched on, but just a few people have really discussed in detail. I'm talking about PV, which is not viewing. Our guests will let you know why, but it's PV, the right pronunciation. So here today with us, we have, a recently born project that focuses on PV lines. Although its recent start, both the winery and the restaurant have been gaining international recognition. So my goal for today for this episode in particular is to understand what VV is and what we should be looking forward to. So welcome, Kaiden. Thank you, Zadala. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be off to the, today. Thank you for joining us actually. So right off, why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about your background, your experience? Mhmm. So I started my wine journey fundamentally helping in the family business. That was a wine shop with a fascinating selection of wines and food products. There, I began realizing how much study and dedication this role required to be able to meet the expectation of guests and clients. And after some experiences in Germany, mostly with the idea of learning new language and, new culture, I started working on hospitality industry being immediately attracted to the wine service. After completing the ice free level qualification and after participating to the Alma Ice Master in wine communication and marketing, I worked for some years in wine retail and distribution business. Doing the work done for the final paper of my master. I met and embraced a couple on a project. And since two thousand and twenty two, I'm on the team as Emily, heading at the same time to plan and organize the everyday front of the house tasks together with owners and executive chefs. Nice. So you mentioned actually that Caponio was started in twenty twenty two. Right? So what is Caponio Why did it start? Where is it actually? Because we haven't mentioned this yet. I like thinking Capolonia as an organist held together by the deep vision and understanding of Maria Pririaro and Masmogalotto, the owners of the project. The project actually started in two thousand and fifteen when the first part of the today, eighteen hectares was both. And Cabelloni is now what is hospitality related in this state near bassano del grappa in, Vanatoreton. We offer national military speaking a more casual situation and a more classic restaurant, both under the management of the executive chef, Alejung. The restaurants are inside the boutique hotel, and around all of that, almost in a bordeaux style. There are vineyards, a separate winery, one hectare of organic farm, then fruit tree gardens and a building. And all of that is under the management of Cadaruman. That is the agricultural business of the estate run by the same machine. Got it. So would you because you mentioned if I didn't misunderstood that is the hospitality project of Cada Romand, basically. Right? Exactly. So in the past years, we've been learning more about it. We've been hearing a lot more about end of the reason. So is this a trend that you intend to help us. Yes. Definitely. But I also strongly believe that we've built something that has so much to offer in terms of the numbers of experiences you can make in capital in your world. So we are trying to change the offer, meeting the demand where the demand feels the lack of something different. For me, every guest, every night is something like an any tourist. In one way or the other. Bringing in the bell of Capollone or Cabo Man should mean that you are ready to be amazed by the project. And then it's our job to understand what that you're willing to know us. This is how I intend the role of hospitality in analytics today in general. And I would say we're not so much working to hop on something predefined. But rather to be in so interesting that, you know, tourism in the estate transform itself in an experience. So that for me is the final goal and the only one I can actively pursue in the restaurant every night. So you believe a lot in customization. It's somewhat the the customer that leads the demand and the offering when then you adapt them fixed the right thing. I think this is where people or like the Otika, the entree professionals should be moving forward to because if you just focus on your offer and, like, what you have, it's not as efficient, I would say, as creating the perfect experience for each and every single person. So focusing a little more on Cadaruman, if I may. It's eight actors, you said. It's in reality eighteen actors. So all the estate is in some way related to the wine producing and farm activities that we take on. The seven hectares are the hectares dedicated to the Viticulture. So we are seven hectares of vineyards, and then with the farm and the gardens and the PO Lake, we complete our offer as a farming business. Got it. So would you say now moving to the interesting part? Does this PO diversity contribute also to your TV to cultural system? Like, is this decision connected also to this one? Because maybe I don't know if you've already mentioned this, but your video culture is only Vivi. I think yes, definitely. But I think that everything return in two words fundamental for us that are real sustainability. So vines and the farm and gardens are all under the same vision that is real sustainability. And I think while being sustainable is something that every contemporary business aims in a way or, you know, being authentically or around oriented to that achievement is something that need a lot of effort, lot of planning, and also the ability to think outside the box. So the restaurant, for example, between the first goals given by chair, cares at the restaurant, then the seven hectares of being healthy are one hundred percent occupied with the varieties to mention the wine in itself together with others. One is all under the biological consulting of Nicolabiazi, that our wine maker commissioned a third party study on the impact of pre production to put a real milestone on the long part to the sustainability. So everything is linked together by this towards real sustainability. And the vision of the entire project is trying to be accountable for the promises about sustainability. So, actually, I was thinking, let's do a step back because this is extremely important because you're talking real sustainability and accountability. For those who may not be familiar with the concept of TV. Why is DB connected to real system daily? What is TV? So the name PV comes from, Gemomole, that is Pils Videsh tangt, and it means grape varieties that are resistant to oedium and pernostura powdery and downy medium. So that's the definition. This resistance is the most relevant elements for real sustainability. And these resistances come from the crossing operation that P. V. Is undergoing. Essentially, European varieties of b ds vinifera are crossed with mostly American species. And the goal is to reach the best possible balance between natural resistance to fungi and neurological quality. The resistant is brought by the America DNA, and the winemaking quality is obtained from preserving the most part of European DNA in this crossing. And these are essentially PD. It's nothing more and nothing less than a crossed varieties that allow us to be more sustainable in a way that we don't need to spray so much as with the traditional lumeritis and together having some vines that allow us to make a high quality wine production. So why would you, like, why did you or why would somebody consider, for example, focusing on TV instead of just organic or biodynamic, in a lens that says vanita. It's funny because TV something that had existed for one hundred and fifty years. Something late left. At the end of the nineteenth, century, hybrids, and American wines were one of the few solution found to fight William and turn on. In our time, we simply understood that what was something essential for the European tradition in eighteen hundreds now could mean less prey on vineyards and more sustainable way. And started from that, breeders and winemakers started to think how these vines can be grown and how the grapes can be used to help in the grass their best expression possible. In northeast, Italy, we have little experience with these varieties ten years more or less. Now, we are starting to understand probably the vintage variation and the terroir translation through these varieties. But I spoke about northeast Italy because the free regional benefit, twenty nine to addis and free will advance as Julia, without any doubt, free of the most difficult reason for the spray and protection management in the vineyards. Human conditions and today climate led in some areas one number of treatments that are simply not sustainable. Given the fact that it's not only the quantity and the quality of our Fito sanitary treatment to be considered, but also the water consumption for every treatment the CO2 emission of tractors and, fuel consumption. Soy compaction is another element to be considered. So the risk to spoil and damage the living build diversity in the vineyards, threat And with PV, we don't reach the zero, but we can work within an organic farm with, minus eighty percent of this type of operation on the fields. So the number of the time we exit with tractors on the fields. I often remember somebody instructive numbers in two thousand and twenty. The three percent of the agriculture area in Europe was dedicated to the line, but with the cultures consume sixty five percent of the total amount of fungicides that equals to sixty eight thousand tons per year. And Venetu is an high volume producers speaking about grapes and wines. And with the previous ratio in mind, surely, we can be at least a possible idea to test how good TVs are in translating our wonderful land, and how far can we go with these varieties? In terms of aromaticity and translation of the terrarium in the glass, what are some of the PV labels you've introduced? Cause like, as you've ever mentioned at the beginning, there's the Kataruman project that is the winery, and then there's Capolano, that is the restaurant equipment experience. Of course, you have included PV labels in the wine list. How did you build actually the the entire wine list. Does it revolve around the TV selection? Is it more of a complete people pleaser in a way wine list? Like, how did you create that one? I think both, TV, collected in a specific session. Of the wine list of Capolo. And, obviously, other producer than cameraman are represented. For us, the main point of the selection is offering the highest quality possible for every style and every category of wine. We built our wine list together with Anderson on Air, thinking about, coherent expression of the Capoloni Vision emission. So in our wine list, you can find wine from all over the world. Most of them, not from TV varieties. These count for eight, ten percent of the total. And the wine list put particular attention to Italy and France. But the point is that regardless of what you pick from it, you will find the best balance possible at that time, and, obviously, for our interpretation between quality and attention to the future of the device, sir. That means that we essentially we are updating constantly, the list, and we are always looking for the best expression of the culture of sustainability means that PV organic, biodynamic, etcetera, all philosophy or all protocols that we look with particular attention, but these labels are not essential for us to find something interesting to put in our wine list. Important for us is to give everyone the opportunity to be in our wine list regardless if there is an organic or a biodynamic or a PV label on the bottom. So there are many producers that, for example, too small to think about an organic certification. But if we know them and if the wine correctly made for us, is a lot better to tell our guests about this type of wine because we strongly believe that all together we can go for a generic culture of standability. You mentioned that you want to make sure that there's an offer for each type of palate, each type of preference, sustainable, organic, or dynamic PV, but what I would like to ask you is I've recently discovered that the Michelin Guide included your restaurant in his list. And the interesting thing is that in their website, among the facilities and services of Capoliano, they highlighted an interesting wine list. I wanna do a big shout out to you because this is something huge. But also my question is, what do you think got detention of such an important organization? I generally think that the point of difference between one list and another is the way you use it during the service. What I mean is that we can find some wine list with decades of history and decades of work of great professionals behind it. We are not interested in Capolone and copying that sort of wine list. We started two years ago, and we are trying to work on our specific path. And communication plays in this frame, I think, an essential role in achieving what we are trying to achieve. The worst thing you can do, as familiar, in my opinion, is looking at your wine list as a catalog. We are not a distributor. We are in the hospitality business. And what that means is that we have tool. And the goal is not just to open the bottle in a nice way and vomiting. I'm sorry for the time. But No. No. But I agree. I agree. I feel like a lot of people have experienced this people just showing off their knowledge. The problem is most of the time this information, the ones a guest can find simply rotating the bottle. So our specific goal is to bring our vision at heavy table through bottles. And classes. And I think that simply we reached at least partially the goal with, michelin critics. So I generally hope that the servicing Capoloni is able to tell our specific story with the tool of the wireless. Our job as Samuel is to be able to give the motivation to all the staff members to improve and master the communication skill. Night after night and being an example of that. And I think that is what we are presenting to the the astronomical critics. And in this case, Michelin Critics. Talking about communication skills. I have a hot question for you. How do you actually explain and communicate BV to your customer? Like, do you think there's still a little bit of misunderstanding between organic dynamic PV. Are people open to trying DV wines? Like, what is the feedback? How do you communicate TV and how is the feedback of the clients? So, luckily, we find mostly open minded and Curious guest. A lot of guests are more than happy to try something different. A precise trend in this time is that people drink less. So for us, is essential to work with the wine by the glass. Through that, we can make try our guests something new in a easier way. Obviously, there are some personal preferences that PV cannot at this time satisfy. That is the elephant in the room that we have to address. There are some regions, for example, the majority in fact, in which PVs are not yet allowed. And there are some style that TVs now are not able to replicate. One for all, the filler style of red wines. We don't have any peeling wine that can be an alternative for this style of wine, but the quality of wine is increasing harvest after hours. And I'm sure that the wines now are cleaner, more complex, and above all, more able to mirror the the water in the glass. So what we are trying to do is to communicate that. So the variety is always a tool. And what's most important is the quality, the quality price ratio, and the ability to get some Viticulture area in a class. But I think that there is definitely a problem of communication and some confusion about organic biodynamic and Again, the variety itself is a tool. Nothing more. There is an essential cultural value in some varieties, and no one can simply cancel that. So I'm thinking about maybe although I'm thinking about SanJovese, I'm thinking about, you know, Mar in general. Looking to the history of Viticulture, we have to register that the variety of grapes is always been something in some way secondary to the terroir, especially in Europe. So we're starting meaning the wine from the place, it comes from very long time ago. So that's in my opinion is the type of explanation we should give when the tool is confused with the production protocols and philosophy being oriented to an organic or biodynamic agriculture is something that eventually can be facilitated from the choosing variety. But the two elements have to be considered separately. In Coloraman, for example, we are organic from day one. But first of all, we are TV producer because that's the tool we choose to interpret our land. So that's the main difference between the philosophy production or protocols and the variety. And the two elements have to be always separated. Otherwise, it's just, confusion between two different elements. That's something that is extremely important to stress. Also, because now going back to the profile and the availability of wines, meaning that, like, for example, you mentioned, there are not currently full bodied red wines or, like, in some regions. Maybe it's not a thing yet. Maybe in the future, but not yet. But maybe it's me being naive, but I do see a lot of opportunities for VV, because for example, okay, there's no full bodied red wines, but at the same time, we're now experiencing a rise of white wines. For example, in general, or for example, younger generations do not prefer fully bought it, have year butted wines. So do you think that maybe new generations or like people that are interested in white wines shouldn't be open to consider VV. Do you think the VV can satisfy the type of demand? Absolutely. Yes. The answer is yes. It's a simple answer, but is what we are trying to communicate night after night. And that's exactly what PBs nowadays is about. We have the possibility to use a different tool to bring something new on the table. And working with the quality, we can have some serious alternatives for this type of wine. I always remember that ten years ago, few wines were not so satisfying as they, nowadays. They were definitely intense at the nose, but not so complex. And the major problem was that the mouthfeel was weak. So the fire was short. And the mouth was weak. And that was the problem with the first, experiments with the varieties. Now we have discovered new way to put the PV in a glass I'm talking about winemaking technique and this game changer, I think. So now we have the ability to suggest an alternative. This element was missing five, ten years ago. Now, we have and we can really understand what are the younger generation needs and would be to work with these intentions. Cause one is not the first choice for Verizon for younger people. But there is definitely some more profound, some more deep interest in sustainability and in the ecological way of our life. So Vivi could be one of the way with which we can restart some interest in this type of drink. So one last question. How do you see be evolving in the next year, or is there something that you would say to producers that are considering starting or are willing to learn a little bit more or maybe like professionals in restaurants, like Do you have any suggestions? So it's a very wide question, but it's up to you. Feel free to share any thoughts. As I noted earlier, we have little experience with PV today. If we think to the most successful appolation in our wine regions, ten years of experience, basically nothing. Just to give you a practical example, our winemaker, Nicole Abayazi has done little more than ten harvest and he is one of the point of reference of the penny winemaking worldwide. He has done an incredible job interpreting and adapting the classic analogies to be this. And yet every year is the occasion to try something new. So I think that the coming years quality through experience will be the polar star for every serious city producer. But together with that, I don't think that in a five, ten years period, the demand for PD wines will slope. And that's because the last part of the consumer is not used to them. So thinking about what we have already said, the vast majority, wine consumer, order, and the ability to change some paradems is difficult to obtain. But I strongly believe that calling the role of professional in hospitality and wine service, there would be, stronger and stronger demand for wines of terroir made with specific attention to the sustainability. I think that PVs will not be demanded per se. I think that PV has a word of possibilities in front of them, and we need to give them the ability. To express what are the potentials and what are the values for the real sustainability. That's I think is the the way we should think about PV in the next years. It's more something that we can do as communicators rather than what wire makers should do with Phoebe's. Phoebe's has to keep in mind that the quality is always the way to go for the production. Our role is fundamental, I think, now for the, development of this type of innovation. That is an innovation that started one hundred and fifty years ago. So it's a well established innovation that has in the latest year, some new fresh ideas and possibilities. So I think about the future of babies. I think this is a wrap, but I really wanna thank you. I think this interview has been extremely helpful for me, but also to listeners in order to understand better TV, what it is about, what are the challenges of course, because you've touched on that too. You've been extremely honest about current situation. I think this was a really interesting talk to have and needed one too. Cause if you look up EV information on the internet, there's not as many information as fort one in general. So that was also very interesting too, but now I've just learned that it's something extremely recent. So thank you so so much for joining us today, and I'm very much looking forward to what's coming up next. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me today. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Let us know your thoughts on our social media at Italian One podcast and follow us to keep up with the next generation of Italian wine people, tears.