Ep. 1244 Amanda Barnes | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Coming soon to a city near you, Vineita Lee Road Show. Have you ever wondered how to attend Vineita Lee for free? Are you a wine trade professional interested in a sponsored trip to Vienie to the International Academy, or Vien Italy, the wine and spirits exhibition. Coming soon to Princeton, New Jersey, Harlem, New York, and Chinatown in New York City, Cardiff in Wales, London, in England, and Roost in Austria. We'll be giving away our new textbook Italian Wine Unplug two point zero. Find out more about these exciting events, and for details on how to attend, go to liveshop. Vineitally dot com. Limited spots available. Sign up now. We'll see you soon. Welcome to wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Minute. On Italian Mind Partners. I'm delighted to announce an important collaboration with Academy Duvan Lieimer, one of the world's most important wine book publishers whose authors are amongst the most influential dental painting in the world of wine writing today. These are writers who I've long admired, so it'll be fascinating to chat with them and hear their stories. I hope you will join. Welcome to wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, it's my great pleasure to continue our special sub series in collaboration with Academy Divan Library. One of the world's leading wine book publishers. My guest today, Amanda Barnes, has carved for herself an important niche, writing about a continent that I'm certainly less familiar with, South America, and it's ever growing range of outstanding wines. Her book, the South American wine guide, is the most comprehensive and up to date guide to the wines of Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Uruguay, Brazil, Bolivia, and Peru. It's a weighty poem, beautifully written, and full of not only firsthand knowledge, but also real love and affection. Amanda joins me today from Mendoza Argentina where she lives and works. Welcome, Amanda. How are you today? Is it a beautiful summer morning in the foothills of the Andes? Can you describe to us where you are? It is. Well, thank you very much, Mark, and and and absolutely, it's a classic beautiful Mendoza morning. We had a big storm last night. So, actually, the andes have been sprinkled in snow, and the air is rather crisp, which is nice and refreshing, in midsummer. Oh, that sounds absolutely beautiful. You can see the snow on the mountains from where you are. If I go to the terrace, yes, but currently I'm in my kitchen. So I'm so I'm imagining them that this morning I did see. How beautiful. Firstly, Amanda. Why South America? How and why did you fall in love with the whole continent? Well, I think my love affair with South America actually started at a distance, much like you know, the kind of olden days when people would start a penpal relationship, mine was very much through, through words and and reading the literature of South America. And I really fell in love with the magical realism, genre, and kind of concept and this idea of of the magical reality of life, both both dark, but also, slightly kind of fantastical. And really kind of loved the music of South America, had met many South Americans in my time living in London and just kind of felt that I really wanted to go there and and discover it for myself. And then I moved in two thousand nine. I kind of packed up my things in England, finished my job at the local newspaper. And headed out there in order to to see if I could make it as a freelancer. And and when I got here, I really fell kind of head over heels in love with the topic of wine and decided to focus entirely on wine writing. And and very much started exploring the different corners of South American wine. Well, that's such a inspiring and brave story how you really fell in love from afar and then actually made something real happen by just going out there and doing it. Yeah. I don't think I think when I left, I hadn't really I didn't plan it too much. You know, I just saved enough money to to last a year. And give it my best. Well, well done for actually finding a way to make that happen. It's quite inspiring. Now magical realism, that's a term you use. And I just want our our listeners to get a Small flavor of your writing, which I think is quite beautiful. I fell in love with wine, specifically South American wine, and the incredible people and places that make it. The transformational relationship between place People in liquid felt like magical realism to me. It's incredible how the taste of a tangy, mouth watering, chilean, sauvignon blanc, can take you back to the salty cold morning fog, that engulfs you as you stand shivering in the cool coastal vineyards, or how each glass of Malbec, which embraces you in aromas of right plums, violets, haria herbs, and minerals, can immediately transport you to a spring walk through a landscape of wild herbs and flowers or the warm sunshine bakes the rocky mountain sides of Mendoza. Indeed, it still fascinates me how the exquisite taste of an old vintage can conjure up the deepest memories of a family that has grown up making these wines generation after generation amidst a labyrinth of ancient creoia vines. Just one sip of wine is enough for it to evoke faraway places, peoples, and time. And the magical wine world of South America opened my wine to a wonderland that went far beyond the wine or the looking glass. So it's that magical realism, Amanda, that you say drew you to the continent. And I think that magical realism comes through your pages both through your writing, but also through the places you take us to. It's such a a wealth of places. It's such a huge continent that, you're you're you're describing. Tell us about this relationship of magical realism and the whole continent. I mean, I think magical realism for me is, it's a fascinating literary genre. And and the reason I think it it really relates to wine is because, I mean, I'd when you're drinking wine, you can just have a very physical act of consuming something. But if you let your mind wander, you can have a very, emotional and and a totally kind of different experience, which can take you, transport you to different places, and I I love that about wine. And when I started in wine, I was a a travel writer, really. I was focusing on on travel writing. And so what I kind of like to bring to to my wine writing is very much that that travel aspect to that experiential aspects. And I think, you know, the combination that wine has of that, that magical element, as well as South America, which developed this great genre of magical realism, in part, and as a way to kind of survive the the the tough realities that we're here, but also as a way to to really explore the different facets and cultures that are that are bound here, you have so many different influences there in South America. From you know, the African influence, which specifically kind of talks to a lot of the the magical realism literature of Brazil and also, further north in the continent. And then, you know, you have your large kind of European influence and you also have this incredible native influence of the many different, native populations of South America. So there's just this constant kind of blending of cultures, timelines, thought processes, experiences, it's it's just not don't think life is linear, and I certainly don't think life in South America is linear. Yeah. Actually, I really love that. I and I and how you suggest that the magic of wine is also that it takes us places. Within that bottle, they're places and people and and emotions. Now South American wines are considered a new world, and this sort of suggests the continent were growing grapes and making wine as a relatively recent activity, and In fact, you know, South American wines are still new to us. We don't know wines from some of the countries you described. But in fact, this is anything but the reality, vines have been growing in South America for hundreds of years. Tell us a little bit about briefly about this vast history of wine in South America. Yeah. So I think, you know, South America is the kind of oldest of the new worlds of wine. And it was when the Spanish first came, in the late fourteen hundreds, actually, when Christopher Columbus came on his second voyage and he brought grape vines, from Spain, and started planting them throughout the kind of Caribbean, and then they moved their way up to North America and then down to South America. And so that's where the story of of South American wine really starts was with the planting of these Vitus winifera, vines. And it really was quite a quick kind of beginning to the story. I mean, some places less so Brazil started producing wine in fifteen hundreds and then abruptly stopped because it was just too challenging, with the technology at the time to to produce in the in the rather humid climates that you have. But in the drier areas of of Peru, of of Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, we really did see this, great kind of explosion of the wine industries from the fifteen hundreds onwards. And it was really Peru that was the first wine proper wine country of South America with a with a significant industry. And that was largely because I think the Spanish of Ice royalty was settled there. And they were obviously the ones that were consuming their wine. Predominantly. And then it's kind of shifted when the explosion of the potosi mine in Bolivia happened. And we had a huge kind of concentration of not only wealth, but also workers there. And and there's necessity to make not only wine, but Agua did the end day and stronger spirits, to kind of get the minors through the experience of of working, in very tough conditions. So we really see kind of Peru and and Bolivia as the the the starting points of the industry. And and it's funny to me that they're kind of so forgotten. And that's really why I wanted to start my book with both those countries because I think they're key to the past but also, I think I hope that they'll have a bigger part to play in the future. And then Chile and Argentina really developed, you know, the an absolute kind of juggernaut, like, development over the next couple of hundred of years and and are absolutely the titans today. That's really fascinating because I think most of us have probably not tasted a Peruvian wine or a Bolivian wine, but I was fascinated to read about, Eka Peru, where you say some of the continent's oldest vineyards are still being cultivated with Creoia Vines, a century old, or more. That area itself sounds just amazing with vineyards grown out of sand, presumably pre philosopher because the vines wouldn't need to be grafted. Is is that right? Absolutely. And when I started going to Peru in in two thousand and sixteen to the wine regions, it was so it was fascinating to me because, you know, I'd speak to the winemakers and juices. And and really, they hadn't received any kind of English speaking, journalists at all. So it was it was very under the radar. It was it was quite it was very difficult to to gather information, on Peru. But it is an absolute kind of, untapped world of wine. You have these incredible old greeoria vines, as you say, ungrafted. Some of them hundreds of years old. You have this very rich, culture and heritage of making Pisco, which obviously, is quite kind of well known on the world, drinks map. But there's also this great renaissance happening of Peruvians returning to make wine from their Pisco wines. And that's what most excites me about Peru. It's this kind of re rebirth of their native Grioria kind of disco varieties, and and really looking at how you can make nice artisanal wines from that. And Peru had a really tough history because what happened was the Spanish. Crown got rather jealous of the production, that they'd started, and then Peru kind of, you know, grew quite quickly. And so they the the king prohibited wine production several times in Peru's history. And so because they were right at the credit first of the vice royalty, they were under the control of the Spanish. They couldn't really make wine secretly, whereas that did happen elsewhere on the continent. So Peru has this long history of of struggle. But at the moment, I think, you know, we're seeing a really interesting, renaissance of artisanal wines from these very unique Pisco Creo varieties. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. One of the quotes I love, in your book is you say discovering the old creolea vines in South America is like finding the Jurassic Park of Viticulture. I don't think many know what the creolea vines are. Can you explain them and perhaps give a few examples? Yeah. Absolutely. So there's several terms for the creolea vines, but basically, the the first lines that came with the Spanish, in the late fourteen hundreds, and and the spread around, the continent in the fifteen hundreds was Listan Prieto, which is best known in Europe now for its teeny tiny production, on the Canary Islands, and also Mosquatellia, which is obviously a a very widespread, great variety planted all over the world. From those two varieties, we had a lot of crossings, and birth of new native varieties. And those are what we call the creole varieties. The term creole or creole refers to, Hispanic descent born in the Americas. And so that's how we call collectively, this family of great varieties. Some of the most famous are Todor and Des from Argentina. So that was, born in Argentina. And it's largely only produced in Argentina. And it's it's a blend. It's a cross between the Mosqueta, Alejandro, but you have lots of other ones as well. So we have Priogrande. That makes some beautiful white lines, the Toronto. Yeah. The Torontes is is really the kind of optimum expressions from the north of Argentina from Cafe, and you have this lovely, kind of, flamboyant, Jasmine, lychee, tropical fruit aromas, a very aromatic wine. And quite light light bodied and and and fresh and and and crisp to drink, really good summer time wine. But you get a huge diversity of these varieties. Some of them much lesser known like this Chokenya from Bolivia, which is kind of like a rustic Pido noir, if you like, from from Bolivia City Valley. You get lots of different varieties. One of the most planted though is that original wine, that list amrieta, which we call PACE in Chile. And we've got significant plantings of place left. And they are these beautiful gnarly, old vines normally head trained, and especially in the south of Chile at Tata, the orbi or Mowli, they can produce some really really great wines that that winemakers have really kind of, I think, perfected in the last couple of years actually in making them quite kind of ethereal wines, very juicy. You know, they can be there are some I think there are some new crews, if you like, of these old creole vines emerging. And I'm really excited about it. Wow. Fascinating. Would those be, a hundred percent varietals or would they be used in blends? So often, the paisa chile is a hundred percent. But some of these many of these old creole plantings are field blends. So in the case of the white wines, you will typically actually find them as field blends. So if you taste the old, the old vine, feel like white wines from southern Chile, they would typically be a, you know, a nice mix with Dorontel and and Mosquito, and and maybe some of the other old varieties that have been in Chile a long time, like Salillon or Corrindo, which is Casala. So the kind of story of South America shifted in the eighteen fifties, when we started to see the the importation of other European varieties. So pre eighteen fifties, it was all the Criolla vines and varieties. And then post eighteen fifties, we start to see the arrival of other international varieties from largely from Europe, and often blending and crossing with these, crew of varieties too. We have one interesting crew of variety that I'd like to point out, which is very rare, but quite interesting. Which is one of the more modern ones, which is called at the moment, it's called Prioria numero uno Prioria number one, and that's at a crossing of Prioria Grande, which is a native one in Argentina and Malbec. And so you get this really interesting line that that comes with this deep Malbec color, but this juicier kind of crayo grande style in the palette. So the story hasn't finished. It's still in development. Well, that is really interesting. And I guess each country has its own crayo of varieties as well. Absolutely. And and I think, you know, it's been it has been largely kind of ignored there for the last kind of twenty or thirty years. You know, they were the they were the real workhorse varieties of the seventies when people were drinking a lot of wine. And then in the nineties, when things kind of shifted generally to towards kind of more quality production, they kind of got abandoned, and and we lost a lot of plantings. And it's really in recent years that we're starting to see some of the producers. Look back and think, well, actually, what can we do with these old fights? Because they're incredibly resistant to climate change and drought. They're very sustainable for the future. So they've really kind of started to look not only for that reason, for their sustainability reason. But also I think for that unique South American identity, you won't find these scrapes anywhere else. You won't taste the wines anywhere else. So I think they give a really unique spin, to South American wine. Well, that's really interesting and fascinating, that your book introduces these because I guess a lot of these are wines that just aren't exported yet, perhaps they will be. Yeah. That's very much. My hope. Part of the reason I dedicated so much the book to the creo vines and varieties is because I really hope that that I think, again, wine education, we have an opportunity to hopefully kind of instigates and change. And if if people have information, then they might be more willing, to try these varieties. And, you know, potentially we can open more avenues for exports, and really kind of, you know, have the important social change that we need here in South America, which is, you know, looking after some of these incredible growers, that have been caring for these clients for such a long time. And there are definitely winemakers who have these amazing and admirable projects really supporting the growers and the families, in buying their grapes at a good price, and trying to make, you know, fine wines from these old wines. And so in the market, I think as consumers, it would be great if we can also support this change and go out and buy these wines and, you know, try and really kind of rescue or or keep retain this this heritage of old vines, which is so important, I think, to the future of wine and and so important for the environment too. Absolutely. It's interesting, actually. I guess, Amanda, thinking back, I suppose Chile was one of the first countries to begin exporting you know, in fairly large quantities, say, to the UK, and, you know, lines with variety of names we were familiar with. And we're looking, you know, I imagine that a lot of large scale producers in Chile and Argentina. But what your book takes people to are small artisan producers, and you extoll the virtues of the low tech approach, which is happening in Italy as well in other countries in Europe. Where we're really returning to the origins of wine, and you say that that's almost never changed in South America. So that's an interesting feature as well, isn't it? Absolutely. And that's something that I think often from an outside perspective gets lost. Because you can see the great trends and changes, and obviously a lot of the wines that are on the export markets are from bigger companies who are kind of constantly innovating and changing. But when you go, when you dive deep into the really traditional wine regions, the smaller producers, the smaller growers, they've never lost that essence of making their own wine for the village. And that's beautiful. That's really special, in my opinion. And you find it equally in Bolivia as you do in in Southern Chile, as you do in in in Northern Argentina, you know, you find it in lots of different parts, where they continue to make wine as they have for centuries. And I think it's it's great to have a combination of both. I think innovation is important, but I also think, you know, retaining that heritage identity and the more traditional ways of making wine is also a really important for the diversity and the culture of wine in each country. And if you go to Southern Chile, a lot of people, a lot of wine critics have been unnecessarily critical of Chile, I think. You know, people have compared them, to very kind of industrial industries, but they just haven't gone far enough. They haven't looked beyond the industry. It's always been there. If you go to the south, you know, there are amazing families who've who've always been making their wines in the same way. Often kind of orange wines, there's some techniques there that are great. Like, their typical, bamboo de stemaments, the Ziranda, which they all do by hand. They'll still age wine in their old, tinajas, which is the Chilean kind of amphora that they've been using for hundreds of years. And so you have these very lovely, interesting artisanal techniques, which have never died. And they they are certainly becoming a bit more popular. You know, there's a trend of winemakers from elsewhere kind of adopting some of these techniques, but it is fascinating. And that is absolutely fascinating. Now, Amanda, your book is also a guide for people who want to travel and experience and find these places themselves. You give travel tips and you also talk about the foods of each country. How important is wine linked with food to the cultures of South America? Is it very much part of a way of life? A hundred percent. I mean, if you want to look at Uruguay is a great example of how important food is to wine. Uruguay has three times more cows than people. And they they have a really kind of important beef led diet. So, they eat more beef per capita than anywhere else in the world. And so, you know, that importance of steak and beef in their, in their diet reflects in the importance. Of Tannat as their champion variety because you obviously, you know, the great talents of Tannat, work so nicely with a juicy steak. And so you really do see the relationship of food and wine as as completely integral. In in many of the kind of cultures and wine regions of South America. I'm thinking of that beautiful description in your book of the Savice, with, made with Pacific, really fresh Pacific counts. Ocean fish just cooked in lime juice with a glass of chilean sauvignon blanc. Absolutely. That's one of my favorite pairings in Chile. Like, you know, with chile and Peru, you've got this incredible coastline. And so much of the the the cuisine is dominated by seafood when you're towards the coast. And so these really refreshing, zippy zesty coastal wines, especially sauvignon blanc just worked so perfectly with with not only ceviche, but also the incredible oysters you get, in Chile. What about wine tourism and wine hospitality? Is that something that is recently developed or is and developing and our visitors welcome. Visitors are definitely welcome, but it is relatively recent. I mean, it's it's really since the kind of two thousands that you've seen more international tourism coming to the wine regions and really kind of boomed in the last ten years as well. Obviously, the pandemic has kind of you know, put a put a pause to that. But every everything's up and running here again, and everyone's, very kind of welcome and open to visitors. And you get some really incredible, beautiful experiences visiting the wine regions of South America. The most kind of developed is semi Mendoza, which is a real heartland of of wine tourism and and, you know, great plethora of experiences that you can have here from shoestring budget to, to kind of five star luxury all the way. And then in Chile, there's some real kind of hubs, like, called Chagua, Casablanca, Maripo, and in Santiago, you know, there's lots of different, kind of wine hubs, but then there's also lots of off the beaten track. Locations that you can go to, to really kind of go beyond the beyond the beaten path and and and start to kind of make your own exploration and discoveries of of places, which I think is you know, if you're an adventurous, tourist, then, you know, it can be a very rewarding experience. Well, you've certainly made me both want to find some of these wonderful wines that you've described as well as travel to countries. I haven't been to. Amanda, it's been a real pleasure speaking to you today. You and your book give valuable insights into a whole continent of wine, places, peoples, foods. I urge our listeners to find Amanda's book the South American wine guide is being distributed by Academy Devon Library. And I urge you to buy this book because it will take you to many wonderful places, and you'll have wines that you can enjoy too. Amanda, thank you so much. I hope the next time we have a chance to meet, we'll be able to do so over a glass of perhaps peruvian wine. Sounds fabulous. We'll get some peruvian ceviche too. Wonderful. Thank you, Amanda, and Thank you, ma'am. Have a great day. You too. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here, or wherever you get your paws Likewise, you can visit us at italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time.