Ep. 2208 Paolo Tegoni | Wine, Food & Travel with Marc Millon

Amazing. Do you think that was taken from the Adriatic to Central Tuscany or the other way around? We do not yet, but for me, it was a surprise to find Tuscany Malvasia in the other side of the Adiatic Sea, you know, and with this kind of grape, there, they make the classic, the sweet wine name classic. Fascinating people with stories to share. Fabulous wines and the best local foods to accompany them and beautiful places to discover and visit. All of this and more on wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast. Join me for a new episode every Tuesday. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to Amelia Romagna. To meet my guest, author Paulo Tigone, who has written a beautiful book, Malvasia, Udiario, Medi Tarani, which we can translate as Malvasia, a Mediterranean journey. Which chases a story of one of Italy's most important grape varieties on its voyages across Italy, as well as across the Mediterranean. So in a sense today, we will be following something from that extraordinary journey along with him. Paulo, thanks so much for being my guest today and congratulations on writing this fabulous book. How are you? Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you. I'm fine. I hope you owe too. Yeah. I'm very well now. I'm in, Southwest, England. I'm in Devon, where my good friend, Micheli Longadi, who is also your friend, Liz. We're getting together for a drink this evening. Yes. Of course. Micheli is a good friend for me. Of course. Thank you. Okay. Good. Now, Paulo, tell me a little bit about your own background. You're not a full time wine writer. Are you? And you're you're from Parma? Yes. Of course. I I'm from Parma from a little village, in the hills and the south of Palma named Otsano Taro, a plenty of vinyls of Malvasia, of course. And I'm, an ex coming attendant from, a Italian crew. So I travel a long different, ears, all over the world. And then, one day in the nineties, I was struck by wine on the word of Damascus, you know. So I I I left everything two to five, year professional experience as a sommelier in Paris during the nineties, in in the beginning of the two thousands. And after returning in Italy, I got wetted in gastonomic Sizes at the University of Palma. And then I've been working as a gastonoma for several years, councilor in, food and wine Evans, and a teacher right now in different Italian universities, always about food and wine culture. Okay. That's very, very interesting. Mikelli was telling me you helped him when he was writing his dissertation at the University of Parma. Yes. Of course. Mikele, I invited him many times in my course in Apama University. I'm so glad to be his friends. Michele tells me as well that you have links with one of my favorite places. The Antica Corte Palavicino, which is in the Basa Parmensei. Yes. Of course. I work for them for Antica Corte Palavicino for the Spigialoli family for many years. They have one star restaurant with a very good seller. Good evening. A a very good seller that's also full of wonderful. Yes. You're right, Mark. Yes. Manny. Yes. It's one of one of my favorite places in as well. The restaurant run by Luchano, of course, a Cavalino Bianco. Of course. Of course. Yes. You're right. These are places that are actually on your journey of Malvasia, and perhaps we'll return to that in just a moment. Your book is published by Terre in Palmer. It's beautifully produced with wonderful images by Francesco Zopi. And I really like the way you put it together. You tell a an important story. Tell us, how did this story of of Malvasir, get under your skin. What made you so passionate about about this grape to research and write this book? But, first of all, for, many reasons because When I was younger, I produced Malvasia wine with my father. Thanks, of course, to the grapes. We pick it from our little vineyard behind the our home. And then because I'm a passionate about wine terrier, and I wanted to learn more about what is behind so many wines that are called Malwazia, you know, and the wireless places of production. And then uh-uh certainly because I'm a lover of history and geography of travel. All of this, has allowed me to travel to learn a lot. And become, of course, I think, a better man. So, Mogovia and this various, such as, I'll put me to meet extraordinary people in places. Okay. That's really interesting. That Yes. Paulo, your own family vineyards then south of Parma. Is this the colony department? Yes. My little Vina is not inside into the the colony department doc designation. I mean, but, of course, Ozanotaro is in the territory of a DOP quality parma. Yes. Okay. And that's an area which you write about in the book. Yes. That's very interesting that Malvasia grape that your family was actually cultivating sparked this interest because as you say, their Malvasia wines produced all over Italy from Frulie Venezia, Julia, as your book shows us right down to the Aeolian Islands office. Yeah. Yes. The same name, but a story that's quite fascinating and inter complicated and complex because we're not always talking about the same grape. Yes. Malvisia wines can be made in many styles and types So we're talking about a lot of different types of wine. Right? Yes. Of course. There are plenty kinds of grapes. I mean, different, families, aromatic or or quite aromatic or non aromatic white grapes red, grapes, all over the Mediterranean area. Of course, in Italy, we have, more or less, twenty different kinds of Malazir grape. Okay. That is really fascinating. But Paulo, the story of Malvasia, and the story of your book begins in Venice. Why were the Venetians so central to the story of Malvasia? Because Venice played from the mental role about this extraordinary wine, because, this, republic warned the fourth crusade in, thirteenth century. And the territory of Filipones, Venice discover a port where wine and other important goods were traded, you know. So from, the period, when it's become an enormous trade in wine, which made it very, very, very rich, a wine which we call it, with the name of the port, where the boroughs were shiped from a a little small peninsula in Laconia region, call it Monnevasia or Monnevasia from that, the name of the wine Malazia in the centuries. Okay. So so this is really fascinating. This nomenclature that this port with one entrance, Monimvasia. Monimvasia an isthmus that's connected by a bridge to the mainland of this Tanya's place became so important to the Venetians for shipping quantities of this wonderful wine that was a robust wine that could be transported by ship that could survive the voyages. And once back in Venice, as you say, that wine brought immense riches. Line that was drunk, not just in Venice, but shipped and sold all across Italy. And I imagine into Europe as well. Yes. In the North Europe, of course, in the rich families, in the north of Europe, the wine, named the VINonna bigata, coming, of course, from the sea, from the aegean sea until the serenissima, and then, exporting all over the Europe. Okay. So this navigable wine, a wine that came by sea that was robust enough to not spoil by sea. And I'm really interested that gradually that name of the wine came to be sort of a corruption of that place name into Malvasia. Yes. In Venice in Venice itself, there are many indications of this in names of places. Of course. Because, the Magazia wines become, very important. And, of course, the Austria, the wine bar, detailed We're named Malvasia Camquielodala Malazia, so to go to Malvasia, etcetera. Venice, of course, made an extraordinary brand about, maybe the first important brand about wine, name in the Malvasir. Okay. That's really interesting too. The Malvasir was not just a wine, a particular wine from a particular place, but it came to be a brand indicating a style of wine a Venetian style of wine, and that's perhaps why that same name is now found. Not only all across Italy, but indeed across the Mediterranean in as far away as as Madira, for example. Yes. Yes. Until Madira and until, Canary Islands. The canaries. Yeah. Yes. So you can find, I think, Malvasia, all over the the region in the Mediterranean. Area. Okay. And thanks to the Venetians, we really can say this wine became hugely popular over the centuries and it spread across the Mediterranean. Exactly. Pano, what sort of wine was it? So it were we talking about a passito? Yes. Of course passito rich in in sugar, but no. Not only. Also, they drive. I mean, Malazia, not sweet. We're trading in in Venice, Magazia Garba, but, both were so important for the market for the trade of Venice, of course. Okay. So a range of styles, the Pasita, of course, made from drying the grapes and the passing men, but also dry styles of wine. So it really and I guess this is why even today we have such a massive diversity or beautiful diversity of styles of Malgadia. Eventually, after the Ottoman Turks conquered the Eastern Mediterranean, the Venetians began to transfer more production to their own hinterland. Yes. The Venezuela firma. And again, it was a brand that wasn't dependent on coming from a particular place. The wine could be made here. Yes. When when Venice left the area in the Asian sea, Venice improved the production of wine nearby the city. I mean, Firdi Vanessa, or all the Adriatic, cost where you find, today, of course, Malazia is Triana, for example, or Marastina, that is Malazia, lung, bianca County region where you you you can find the Vino Santo. So the city, the republic, improve the production why nearby is own territory. Okay. Okay. That's really interesting. Well, let's just go through a few of your chapters. Take a on this journey. And I'd I'd like to start with your home area for the production of a particular variety called Malvasia de Candia, aromatica. Is this what your family was growing on the family vineyard? Yes. La Vasia, the Kandia HOMatica is a an important white grape from the area, Parma and Gachenza, the most important white grape, which interprets So that's why it's called aromatica for beautiful white wines, to man, of course, pacito, and, recently, present fifteen years, for extraordinary, still white wines. Yes. Actually, it's a beautiful expression of Malazir. Now, of course, the name Candia, that was a venetian name for the island of crete. Is that right? Of course. Of course, when Monovazir became too small to trade, to ship the wines, Venice by the island of Krit, Kandia, the period. So that's why this kind of grape, the name of Kandia, aromatica. Okay. And there is also a Malvasia de Kandia. As well, which is not automatic. Yes. Of course. It's less famous. I can say because the the automatic, I mean, is that Divina, like, Carlos, I, I, I, calling it in the in the book. Yes. Yes. What I I like about the book, Apollo, is that you write about the history of of the different areas and Malvasia, but you also highlight key producers, and you give practical advice on where to stay and where to eat. Yes. It's a a book that can help guide one on each person's own journey. Of course. Because, as you can imagine the book is, you can read it in different ways about clients, about territories, but also about, I hope a beautiful journey that you can make the different reason I visit. So it's something that I I keep in my heart. Thank you to the experience I made with people that I meet in the journey. So you can follow me, discover restaurants, and beautiful places. Yes. I really like that. And how long did it take you to go on the on your own Mediterranean journey? Is this a book that you've been researching piano over many years? No. Actually, I may different travels around the Mediterranean regions step by step, and then come back home to right and to, optimize the next trip, you know, with, of course, my friend, Franchesco Zopi. The photo. Yeah. No. The photos are beautiful. I think it works very well. And it's a type of book I admire and I I really enjoy. Now you mentioned, while we're still in Parma Piacenza, The quality department we mentioned were Yes. Which is a source of awesome beautiful. Take us to to Land Gerano and to that castle of Torrechietta. You have vineyards that are overlooking this protected valley, which is which is perhaps more famous for the than for its wines, but there's some wonderful wines from this area. Yes. Of course. You're right, Mark. We are in Torica. So in the Palma Valley, Palma River Valley, Of course, thamos for its, pursuit of the parma, top designation. But, of course, you can find the different sellers, different winemakers that works very, very well. Like, for example, Antony Aldini that I'm looking in book many others, of course. So that is one of the best terroir for Marvaziadica and, also for red buys as Barbara on Cratina for the quality department red wine. Yes. I I I love the wines from the quality department. They go very well again with the cured meats, the salumi, the famous salumi. Of the area. Well, let's continue on your journey and head to an area. You you have mentioned in the far northeast of the country to discover the Malvasia Eastriana, which is one of my favorite expressions of the dry style of Malvasir, particularly from grapes grown in the car. So this extraordinary, a wine land just below or around from trieste. Yes. Yes. You're all right, Mark. Malaziliana is one of the best white grape on a honey water, not, because, Malazil, but we have from, for me, beautiful wines, orange wines, or white wines, I mean, but, the tour when when we visit, it, we spent four days in trieste, and, we traveled all around Italy, of course, of course, Caso, between Montreal and trieste, and then we spent a day in Slovakia territory in Valle de Picco, and then in Israel to find beautiful wines coming from, this, extraordinary grape named Malvasia. Isrianna, originally coming from comes from the Palestinian area in the Croatia region. That's really interesting too to remind our listeners of frontiers that exist today, but which were very, very different, in different times. This area that was first dominated by the Venetians, but also later under the the Hobbsburgs under the Austro Hungarian. So we're talking about a great variety that extends from Croatia, as you say, the Dalmatian coast, a beautiful Dalmatian coast, and into Slovenia, And then across today's border into Fruliovenetia, Julia, both in areas such as, I think the Cali orientale del Frulio, some Avazia. Of course. But mainly the wines I'm thinking of, come from the Carso, these limestone, extraordinary limestone sellers that are carved or actually have been carved naturally by underground rivers to make, wonderful almost cathedral like spaces for the storage and production of wine. What a beautiful tour? You're right, Mark. What a beautiful tour? Yeah. It's it's absolutely beautiful. And as you say, Paula, you've touched on a a style of wine that I'm I'm very interested in on our leg very much, and I think some of the greatest expressions of Malvasia, Eastriana, are in that orange style, that skin contact, where the, a little bit of color is drawn out, but mainly some bite and some tannin and some complexity. So these Malazier's triana, and I'm less familiar with the wines from Croatia, Slovenia, but my friend in Lubiana Anna was telling me about how wonderful these wines can be. Oh, yeah. I I I like them so much. Every experience that I I made in in the territory about the one the book, I find a lot of quality especially in the orange kind traveling all around, slovenia, aggression, and Italian castle territories. Actually, one thing that I think is very interesting is we're talking about very different styles of wine. Made from grapes called Malvasia, but completely different from one another. And we're also talking about very different cultures. We're talking about traveling to areas that are really, really unique and different. They have their own gastronomy And I guess these different Malvasillas are enjoyed at the table with completely different foods from, as we say, you know, the vast journey within Italy, but also extending into Croatia, Slovakia, and we could go further afield. Into France or into Spain indeed and further. So the cuisine adapts or the wines adapt to the cuisine, the cuisine adapts to the wines. Yes. During my my journal and I try have every kind of, match every kind of paint, butter wines and local food. For example, in in Boza, in Sardinia Island, where I I studied the Malazilla dessert, then a grape that get the Malazilla de Bosa, the o p. I pair it with, plate of spaghetti with a butaga, mallet, white eggs, you know? Yes. A sardinian butaga is wonderful. Fantastic. Pain that I I I suggest everybody to find a beautiful Malazide de Boza and pair it with the botaga. Tell me about the Mavazide de Boza. I'm not familiar with the wine. What style of wine is it? Is a very old style similar to the to Sherry, to the Van de Jura in France? Like the Yes. Yes, Mark. You're right. Exactly. So they obtained it with the the flag. Yes. Yes. Sherry style, the if that, make The protective layer. Yes. Protective layer, of course. And in the beautiful, terroir region. And, today, Maveza, about, it there is a little little production. Little production. I mean, there is a one. A silver one, but it's a style denying wine so complex, Mark, I suggest And still fresh. Yes. This oxidized style that's still very, very fresh. That sounds a marvelous pairing. And of course, It's interesting to note that you're saying this is in a style similar to Sherry as is the vernaccia di or Istanbul. But it it's an indication too. We're talking about a mix of cultures. It's an indication too of the influence of the Spanish in, Sardinia. Yes. Yes. Of of course. We talked about, there is a, Spanish culture today also in the red in the, region, catalonia, you know, that make a lot of inferences. Yes. Yes. So just from this brief conversation panel, I think our listeners are really getting an indication that this is a very rich cultural journey. It's not just a a book about wine or about A wine, but it it's an exciting cultural journey that takes you, first of all, in your researches, and you now are taking us on a journey both across the Mediterranean New Book does end its final chapter in Monimvasi itself or wines. I'm excited to see are still being made, but certainly across Italy. Let's travel now to Tuscany. Let's talk a little bit about the Malazir Di Bianca, or often called the Malazir Delcanti. I'm just wondering, Paulo, if this style, you know, the vin santo, a pacita wine, which ages in the small Caratelli, for a very lengthy period. If this style of wine has come perhaps from that original Venetian style, the sweet wine, slightly oxidized style. Is that where the link could perhaps have come from? Yes. Of course, because, or, with the Trebiano, make a beautiful, vincanto, the canty or the canty classico. It depends. About the designation through grapes used in the in the county classical ones. And now they get, also still wines, interesting still wines, white, and, of course, you know, from the Caratelli, where the wines, stay about five, six, more years inside. Place in the attics, not the sellers where they suffer the heat of the summer. And the cold of the winter and they go through this extraordinary process of of aging to result in when one finds the real the real vincento made in this fashion. It's one of the greatest wines in Italy. I think it can be just extraordinary. Yes. I I agree with you, but, this technique is not also a venetian, but it's one of the answers, to have wines from the Egyptian period and maybe before. Yes. You mean, drying the grapes to make the blinds? Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. You're absolutely right. And it's actually it makes sense because in drying the grapes, one concentrates sugar, which means a alcohol can be higher to allow a wine to be able to be conserved. And as you mentioned right from the beginning, we're talking about wines that could be conserved that could travel that didn't spoil. A wine has insufficient alcohol, it can't undergo these such voyages. Could it? Yes. Yeah. You're right. Because the the the sugar helps to keep the wines alive, and then you can trade and ship them all around. Yes. You you won't. And in the same grape, the Malgazia, Dan Kalunga, I found it in Russia. Oh, interesting. In yes. In Bellisach, in Bellisach area. And, of course, a little, yeah, by Dhruvrovnik. When you have also, of course, the most, famous Malazir de Duvovnik. And that's Bianca Lunga? Yes. Marastina. Marastina is the Malvasir bianca lunga from Canti, from Tuscany. But I found it, in the East Coast of Adriatic Sea. Amazing. Do you think that was taken from the Adriatic to Central Tuscany or the other way around? We don't know yet. But for me, it was a surprise to find Tuscany Malvasia in the other side of the idiotic sea, you know, and with this kind of grape there, they make the classic, the sweet wine named classic. Oh, okay. Oh, very, very interesting. Yeah. We're very brain casting. And, just to to tell you, mangasia de Duvovny is another kind of grape, but about genetic is the same grape of Malvasir de Sardena, Malvasir de Delipari, Malvasir de Banar, in Balera's Islands, and so on. So Okay. It's the same grape, but different top animals. Okay. That's really interesting too. In fact, I wanted to finish our journey in Lipari or in the island of Salina, probably, for the Malazidi Lipari, which as you say is a very beautiful, expression of Malvasia in a extraordinary and remote place. How did the grape and and this style of wine end up there? Was again the Venetians? Not sure. Not for sure because this kind of grape, white grape named, maybe was already there. Thank you to the the Greece people. Okay. That, alright, in a Calabrio region, and then moved the grapes in different countries in the in the Mediterranean Sea. Okay. That's important as well that this is an ancient grape variety, one of the most ancient grape varieties. Yes. In Calabia, his name, Greco. Greco Bianco. So Greco Bianco is the Mavisier di Pari. Yes. Of course. And in fact, there's a very interesting Greco Bianco Pasito I recall from the ionian city. I like very much. Yeah. Beautiful one. Tell us about, about the. Yes. Well, to discover it, please go to Salina Island, go to Liparai Islands. Of course, you you can read about it, on my book, but, I suggest everyone to spend some days, on the island, Salina, to have great experience. Well, I would second that. I've not been to Salina, but I I've been to Alikudi, which is a magical island Yes. And to leave Puri and volcano. And I think the Aonian islands are one of the most magical places in all of Italy. Yes. You're right, Mark. You're right. So I would certainly urge our listeners to follow your advice go to Salina, which may be familiar to some some of our listeners, because I think parts of the movie, El Postino, were filmed on Salina. Yes, sir. Alright. With the master matro easy, Yes. A wonderful movie. Yeah. Wonderful movie. Now let's just finally turn into just further the discussions you've already began about Malvasia wines and foods You mentioned this beautiful pairing of Malazia de Bozzo with spaghetti, the the row from the grain monot, which is Yes. Dried and grated over the pasta. But are there any other particular pairings of Malvasia wines from anywhere, any of these other areas that you've co discovered that you think our listeners really need to know about and really need to try and sample. Yes. Of course. For example, my old man was here, Decanda Romatica, of course, with a beautiful, fine, prosciutto department of between twenty four and thirty months, is a special experience, I think. With a Njoko Frrito? Yes. You know, you know, very well about, Mark, thank you. The torta Frita, we call in power. The torta Frita. Yes. Total Frita. Otherwise, with Marvazi Estriana with the muscles. Of course, when you are interested, please try them together because it's a very interesting experience about food and wine pairing. I will try that. I'm going to trieste this year, so or next year in twenty twenty five. I hope for you. And, of course, in a beautiful afternoon during summertime, very, fresh and easy with some, Susikini fish. Very, very interesting. Yes. And I'm just imagining that's Breeze on the Iranian islands, the windy islands, sitting out in the sunshine and just having a little bit of nibble of this of or that. Yes. But I mean, not only proceed though, Mark, also still wines come The still wines. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's important. We think of the, primarily for the, but as you say, there's some beautiful expressions that are still lines. That's it. Yes. Fellow, you've taken us on we've only had a brief conversation, but you've taken us on an incredible journey that I think gives a real flavor of a very special, great variety of the vast range of wines that have the same name, and one way or another. But he've also taken us on a journey through your book. It's given our listeners a really good idea of what you worked hard to to create. Where can our listeners find and buy your book? And the website, Terre, of course, a published publishing house So terror in the in in the Latin Way. Okay. That's a good starting point. P e double r a e. You can find the the book. Of course, for now, it's, still in only in Italian language. But I hope one day to translate, at least, of course, I I hope in English language. It's a book that deserves to find some additions in in foreign languages. So I hope so too because I think it's, a really successful book, and you should be very, very pleased with it. Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you. Paulo, thank you so much for being my guest today. I know it's a busy time, but I really enjoyed our conversation. And as I said, I would have enjoyed it a bit more if we were sharing a glass of one of the various Malvasier wines that we've discussed, but I hope that perhaps we'll meet sometime in the future. It's it's for me a pleasure to be here with you to talk about my my first book about Malazir because I'm I'm trying to to have as the second one, Anton Mateo Island. So maybe I find you here for a second time, in the future. And thank you so much, Mark. Not at all. Thank you, Paulo. We hope today's episode of wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast, has transported you to somewhere special. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe, wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time, Chinchin.