Ep 2330 Sarah Abbott MW | Wine, Food & Travel with Marc Millon

I think for Italian wine in the UK, Italy has been responsible for several of the biggest contemporary cultural shifts in wine If you think about things like the huge success of, you know, pinot grigio de la Vencier, of course of prosecco, those styles, those wines became really popular, not because they were championed by a very influential, you know, gatekeeper. It was really a completely democratic surge of love for those wines. Fascinating people with stories to share. Fabulous wines and the best local foods to accompany them and beautiful places to discover and visit. All of this and more on wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast. Join me for a new episode every Tuesday. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Minon, on Italian wine podcast. Today, I'm traveling to Bedford to meet my guest and friend Sarah Abbott m w of the swirl wine group to talk to her about wine, and life, and in particular about her love for Italian wines. Good morning, Sarah. I know you've just returned from verona and the wonderful hecticness of in Italy. So many thanks for being my guest today. How are you? I'm very well. I've recovered from Vine Italy, but I actually found it a really energizing, and inspiring and kind of encouraging fair even though it is uniquely exhausting. Yes. I know what you mean. I've just returned from ten days there myself. I was sorry to miss you, but I too felt that in spite of the challenges that we're all facing, the world of wine is facing there was a real positivity and determination. Yes. I think that, you know, there were lots of forces in the in the wider political and sociological landscape, which are really taking a pretty divisive approach to trade, of course. And yet, I think that it just goes to show the cultural links, the importance of wine to sort of Italian soft power, you know, to the expression of all of those elements of Italian ingenuity, and heritage, and land. It it's actually very powerful. And I found that lots of the partners I was speaking to US buyers, UK buyers, the producers seemed very determined and positive, actually, and very focused on problem solving and ensuring that the long term relationships sustain. Yes. I think I felt much the same. I think, you know, we're aware of how Italian wine is so much a part of Italian identity. It's part of the fabric of the country, and this Italianicity is really reflected in that determination and that self belief and, knowledge that Italian wine is a good force. It's something that will continue. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, well, certainly from a UK perspective, the potential of Italian wine is still yet to be fully realized, you know, I think the UK concept of Italian wine is very different to that in the US. And I think the depth of understanding of the richness and the fine quality of Italian wine is much more developed in the US for reasons, of course, that we all know about, but what I've seen in the UK is that especially with Italian white wine, there is a developing understanding of the global quality standard of Italian fine wine, whereas I think in previous decades, Italy was sort of the beloved sort of friendly accessible choice whereas now we're seeing more serious importers and serious gatekeepers. Actually, champion the age worthiness and, you know, top quality credentials of Italian wine. Yes. That's really interesting, Sarah. I wonder if that's partly because, you know, here in the UK, we've always had such easy access to wines from around the world, and Italian wine didn't have such a place of prominence amongst wines from, you know, certainly the classic European there is a France still number one, but wines from, you know, from all around the world from Australia, South African, New Zealand, America, South America. And Italian wine, I think you're right, has really has an opportunity now to stand at the top table I was really impressed this year at Ven Italy with how there was much more of an emphasis on the age worthy whites. Certainly at Opera wine, that was a common theme of really demonstrating how the best, the greatest Italian whites really have this tremendous capacity to evolve with age? I think that that aspect, the longevity and not just longevity, but the enhanced deaths that comes with longevity is the greatest under appreciated aspect of Italian wine and the great potential. There is still even now in the UK a lot of, you know, very experienced wine trade professionals who think that there's about two Italian white wines that could possibly age, you know, and in terms of brands. And I think that we've had a centuries old hegemony of France owning the headspace of fine white wine. And it was amazing for me to try the aged, swave, incredible old wines from Campania, from Marquay. And I think that Italian reds have been catching up in this kind of fine wine space for some time that you can see that in the live index. But, yeah, I really enjoy tasting those wines that opera wine. Although, I had to fight to get there. It was that It's a great concept that tasting, but I did find it a bit of a fun fight, to be honest. Yes. It certainly is, and you've got a hundred and thirty one wines that are all great in their own way. And, it's such an opportunity, but also a challenge to try to taste these wines and really gain an understanding of them because it's a unique tasting in that respect. You just especially with those older vintages of the whites, and as you say, from Swave from Uganda, from the verdicchio's you know, not just, the Caticantes from Aetna. Sir, before we dive further into the world of Italian wines, can you share with us something of your own story? Have you always been involved in wine? And what made you fall in love with wine? I started off actually well. I think my love for wine and wine as a holder as a symbol of, you know, meaning culture history heritage that probably started from when I was doing my degree, so I did a classics degree. So I studied the ancient literature of, the Greek and Roman empires. So that kind of got me going. And our professor in that department was really into his wine, and we would have these departmental kind of yoga parties coming and someone would declare, you know, some Greek lyric or read some horace or something. And, this sounds so it sounds so crazy, but basically, the professor would bring in some nice wines, and it was, I think that basically cemented this connection in my young youngest brain, obviously, I was over the age of drinking age. Anyway, and then I actually got a job in marketing, so I did a business degree at Dubs, a business post diploma, not a degree at Dubs. And I was working in image analysis software marketing and just realized I really wanted to get into wine. So I took various different jobs. And when I was running a restaurant in a country house hotel, I really increased the wine sales and one of our main suppliers, who was a specialist importer of domain bottle burgundy basically came and offered me a job, and that's when I got into wine. So my first job was actually selling really, really fancy burgundy. So Can you imagine this is your first job in wine, you know, I was in my twenties, and I was selling, you know, roomier, LaFron Cosh, dujak, Grulo, doversa. I love My my major salary was less than ten thousand pounds a year, but I I drank like a stockbroker. So I I do think that was an amazing grounding because burgundy is such a precise, transparent, resser of wine personality, and that was what I did all my training in. From there, I went on to work with other wine companies, but I was always involved in selling and marketing pretty smart wine. So we had to know all about the wine. So every employer I had, we had a big emphasis on training, tasting, knowing your product. And so I think that set me off on a fairly geeky path but I got into Italian wine when I was working for a really great master of wine called Michael Pally, who's a a Canadian and a great ambassador and a great entrepreneur of Italian wine in the UK. Who set up a company called wine traders, which specializes in in really great Italian wine selling into the UK trade. Okay. That's a that's a really fascinating journey. I'm interested in those toga parties, Sarah. I'm just also wondering what would the wines that this eminent professor would have been bringing. Were they ones that had links to antiquity? Well Such as Chiro or Valang. I think they did, but honestly, I think it was a little bit of polls before swine, you know? Because there was also punch. Oh. Yeah. And we've all took us over the clothes. You know, we we won't I just wanna make this clear. I realized this really now sounds rather, you know, you ripadin, but it wasn't, it wasn't completely, backache clip. So I honestly can't remember. But I think you know what happens to a lot of people who get into wine. They just have they taste wine, and they don't even realize at the time that this is a significant turning point for them. But just something in your synapse is sparks with, oh my god, this is so delicious, and you feel so much excitement and meaning in it, and it just puts you onto the wine. Sometimes you might not even, you know, particularly realize that you will look back and wish you had, you know, noted every single detail about this wine when I was at you. I didn't have a mobile phone, so I couldn't even take photos of the bottles, you know, so Sure. Yeah. But I it was things like that. Yeah. That was, I think it's important actually to remember that fun and joy is the main reason that humans invented wine. It's all about fun, joy connection. And I think that There's an aspect of the way in which Italian wine culture relates to wine, which really highlights this fun and joy. And I think it can both be seen as a positive and potentially a kind of maybe even a limiting factor for Italian wine. I mean, when I come back from Venita, I'm always struck with how much fun everyone is determined to have. You know, it's not a really if you think of all the different personalities of trade fairs, you know, sort of is all about doing business. You know? Why in Paris is very highfalutin cultural events, you know, formal dinners. And Venutally is this absolute explosion of parties Yes. It's exhausting coming back. But I know that you exactly what you mean, we can especially people working in line in the in the profession, you know, we can become overly technical in dissecting wines. And as you say, whether the level is at the highest level or something much more basic, but still able to give great pleasure, it's that that remembering that wine enriches our lives and gives happiness. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, for Italian wine in the UK, Italy has been responsible for several of the biggest contemporary cultural shifts in wine, if you think about things like the huge success of, you know, of course of prossecco, those styles those wines became really popular, not because they were championed by a very influential, you know, gatekeeper. It was real, a completely democratic surge of love for those wines because they're seen as just so easy to love, you know, the style is so friendly and sort of amenable. And I do think although it's important that we don't make Italy into a cliche, I do think from a UK perspective, we feel that we know Italy and we love Italy. We know there are lots of associations, positive associations for us of Italy and Italian holidays and Italian lifestyle, with, you know, a certain ease, glamour, creativity, expressiveness. And I think that this is why the job now really for Italy in the UK, certainly with the white wines, is to say, yes, we are, you know, the home of these things you love. We're also the home of wines that are as great and nuanced and fine as you will find anywhere in the world. Yes. I agree completely with that. I think it's a good place for us to begin discussing one of those wines that you mentioned, which has been a huge success for SECO. Now I remember I've been writing about wine for a very long time I remember when Presecco was the Venetian's best kept secret. It wasn't a woman that had yet, you know, you enjoyed it when you went to Venice, but you didn't really see it outside of Venice, and that was before the big boom in Presecco happened. And here in the UK, of course, we're a wash in oceans of Presecco. Some of which is very good, but much of which is produced on a near industrial scale, but I know you're involved, deeply involved with Cuniliano Vald de Biodine prossecco Seperiore, DOCG, a long mouthful of a name for a wine we love, which really represents the classic heartland. So what do you feel about the two faces of prosecco that we have here in the UK. Yeah. I think that prossecco is this cultural and sociological phenomenon in the UK, and that doesn't happen very often and very easily. I'm not one of the, you know, wine establishment who gets sniffy about this. I think that for a wine to enter into, like, the cultural awareness to be used to express that moment of relaxation and joy. It's prossecco o'clock. You know, it's prossecco time. There are very few wine denominations with their name all over merch, you know. And I think that this is not inherently a problem. So long as the sort of virtuous quality hierarchy can be expressed. I mean, I I work, as you say, with Paneliano Valzalbiardene, which is one of the DOCGs along with Asolo so that historic heritage steep slope vineyards that was the origin of the style before the expansion of the territory And what we see in the UK is as you see in a lot of markets, the volume is associated with price. So the lower the price, the higher the volume. I mean, this is a classic distribution curve, you know, that we see in a lot of wine regions. And I think that the key task for the UK is bear in mind that Paneliano Valdalbiardone accounts for less than ten percent of the volume of prossecco sales in UK. So if you like your entry level or your first tier, your everyday tier of wine, which is the DOC accounts for about ninety percent of the market. I think that if you compare, say, the organization of, let's say, some classic French wines. If you're in Shavlee, you have Village Shavlee, premier crewe, you know, Grand Crew, and that concept of, okay, We have a tier of production, which is our gateway in our introduction, which is generally the lowest price. Then we have a mid premium tier, then we have, you know, an elite ultra premium tier. That kind of one, two, three is completely credible and sustainable in a market for wine, and we're really used to it. I think that the challenge, honestly, for the prossecco category, prossecco with a small pea, is that progression through the hierarchy, you know, sort of, you know, introductory tier, mid premium tier elite tier. It's lost because of this structure of the regulation and communication within Italian wine. So you don't get that kind of integrated communication. And the other reason that it gets lost is because of the sheer dominance of the entry levels here in the market. So I think this is starting to change. I mean, the UK actually remains a really good market for Paneliano, Val de vardany. Still the biggest market. It grew last year. It's tiny compared to the dock. So the dock makes about six hundred and fifty million bottles. I think it's not over six hundred million bottles. And then docG, canadiano Vell, theriadne makes about just under a hundred million bottles. So it's a much bigger region. And what we're starting to see is more of the really established producers with roots in the region actually bringing more of that range into the market. So we've got some amazing producers in our market, and who've been in the market for a while, you know, people like Adami, Bissol, Belinda, Regeri? Did I say Regeri? I might have said Regeri? But we do have some really good producers in the market, and they have their full range of wines. Sarah, I think what would be helpful for our listeners is if you could take us to the world of Corneliano Valdo Valdadine to really give an insight into what makes these wine hills so unique. This UNESCO sited region of great beauty and contrast to the flatter vineyards on the Pianura where a much of the prosecco dot comes from what makes this wine land able to express itself in wines of delicacy and beauty and also richness, you know, very, very special wines. Indeed, I traveled to this beautiful area with you, and want our listeners to really understand what distinguishes this classic heartland. Well, it's three things, the land, the territory, the skill, and the cultivation practices of the people who farm there. And it's the history. This real long sort of accreted history of working this land and really fine tuning the sort of the gifts of the land. Skill of the farming to create this very particular delicate, nuanced wine. So here we're basically between Venice and the dolomite, and you're in this sort of foothills of the pre alps. With an incredible terrain, and this terrain with these very distinctive Hogsback mountains, Hogsback hills, is a kind of preposterous place to try and farm anything. It's so hilly, so steep. And for hundreds of years, the people in that land found a way to make this land productive, and this is the foundation of all culture. In a sense, agriculture is the first culture that we have. And the UNESCO agricultural heritage designation that was given to Kaneliano Valz w Ardene recognizes this very tight interaction between human ingenuity working with a landscape to farm resulting in a very sustainable productive and of course beautiful landscape. So when you go to these regions, I think just to convey that some of the slopes are so steep that it's more than a forty five degree angle. So this is why they call the Viticulture their heroic Viticulture. You have extremely steep slopes, and it gets very green. So this area of Italy is pretty humid actually. It's a high vigor area. It's interspersed with corpses, native woodland, and the way that the slopes are maintained is through these grass terraces, not stone terraces, but the terraces are built up over generations with earth and with grass and inter row planting and natural natural vegetation. So these are the chile only and to maintain them takes a lot of skill, and that's one of the aspects of UNESCO heritage the patchwork in which the vineyards are interspersed with woodland and this sort of the natural environment also is a counter against erosion. And actually there's a lot of historically a lot of mixed agriculture in this area, and even now still the part where you have a lot of chestnut forests is still very, very important for these very high quality chestnuts, which, you know, they all go crazy about in chestnut season in autumn So this mixed agriculture, this mosaic agriculture and planting is also part of the kind of the aspect of UNESCO heritage there. And then you have this very old adaptive grape variety, predominantly glera. Historically, there were other varieties, and more and more producers are bringing those back. So bianchetta, Perea, Vadiso, and Glara is this semi aromatic, sort of, nervy, delicate grape that actually captures the kind of fresh, form is meadow flower acidity that you get in this area. And is really well suited to make these delicate sparkling wines. And it's just worth highlighting that before we have the introduction of the Martinotti method, the Charmat method, technology, winds in this region would either have been made still Tranquillo, which they still have. You producers still made that, or essentially like, method ancestrali, which is now called Sweenyevity, and that's a style which is becoming more and more popular in the region. So you have this unique to our historical significance, heroic viticulture, everything pretty much has to be done by hand. And I think in terms of the distinguishing factors of the wine, the delicacy of the mousse is really important in high quality prosecco, and it's kind of almost quite easy to make a pastiche of a style of sparkling wine in Martin Ortiz. But actually, when the wine is really grown on this kind of nervy knife edge, you do end up with this style that is, you know, mineral, tense, not facile, But I think it's very important that with sparkling wine, we allow sparkling wines to be themselves and not have to taste like champagne all the time. You know, champagne comes from a totally different terroir. It's engine is coming in, you know, is it has it a different engine. It has a an autolytic, you know, low toned engine. And I think the joy of great prosecco and prosecco Superiore from these great tervas is this combination of this almost sort of wistful aromatic with this very fine uplifting mousse, and it's beautiful what the Italians call rapidity. This is very kind of delicate, unforced stony floral persistent on the finish. And lots of people in the UK, even really, you know, proficient experts have not tried, have not experienced good prosecco. I think that's a beautiful description, a really beautiful description of the area what makes this landscape so unique and such a beautiful area for a wine lover to visit. Such a a unique environment to go grapes. And as you say, centuries of hand shaping the land to make these chilione, which allow the grapes to be grown here, much lower yields, of course, and as you say resulting in these beautiful beautiful wines. Now you mentioned the Grand Crew and Premier crew of Chablis, for example, when we're talking about a hierarchy. Can you briefly explain to our listeners what the rivee are and their importance? Yes. Okay. So Relay is a dialect term, meaning a particular very steep slope, and it's a term that's been used for generations to designate particular sites. In France, you would call them like a LODi. And in Conelliano Valle, these rivets have been officially outlined mapped and taken into the disciplinari so the the regulations. So there are forty three rivay, and they are located across the territory of Corneliano Valz de vardany, and they are the single sites In order to make a rivet wine, obviously it must be harvested from that site. It must be hand harvested and it's at lower yields. And they're basically some of the best sites of the region typically, really good exposure, known for being able to ripen grapes with great complexity and balance. And you tend to find not always, but quite often, the rivey wine is the wine that the producer makes in a a brute or even an extra brute style. And this is because the inherent quality, the intensity, the concentration that you get from a great Rivay vineyard, blend themselves to making a wine if you like that's really, you know, paired back. Having said that, there are also some absolutely wonderful Rev wines, which are made in extra dry style. Especially from the high sites that have a lot of acidity, and you can imagine how that balance then works out. So that's rebate. And what we see in the UK certainly that those are becoming more and more popular, and especially in the brute and styles because they're more suited if you like to classic pairings. And also, I think there's still a little bit of sniffiness about, you know, sugar and sparkling wine. You know, we we all think that it's much more we all don't all think, but there's a perception that it's much more sophisticated to drink fruit wines than to have anything with a little bit of residual. I think you're right about the perception of dryness that the extra brute or the, zero dot saad jo wines do have a a cash in. We're seeing more of the extra dry styles such as Cartice from traditionally made in slightly sweeter style can be truly great in their own right. Sarah, what about Uniliano Vald de bialdene as a gastronomic wine as a wine to pair with food, both in the region itself with some of the local foods, but also, for example, in markets like London where these wines are finding their ways into the top restaurants. I think one of the great things that the prossecco search has done actually for sparkling wine in general is that it's taken it out of the celebration and onto the table, you know, and you'll see a lot of more occasions where people will have a bottle of good sparkling wine as an accompaniment for their whole meal. I mean, when I go to the region, I love having things like a really beautiful sweet levity, Colfondo, Coneliano Val de vie Ardenae, with the dish they have there, which is this, risotto with, the bitter edicchio. Oh, yes. And that's an amazing mix. And I think having those really dry, gently sort of salty examples of prossecco with this rich yet tangy risotto is an amazing combination. I think that brute styles especially Mordella cut root styles from things like, you know, Rivae DeSantis Stefano and so on are really amazing with the adriatic shellfish, you know, the prawns, the scholar carpaccio, all of those kinds of things. I think they're wonderful. But I do think also, and especially some of the fuller styles, you know, when you have some of the sort of more richer styles, I'm thinking of things that, you know, the Masatina audio from Olliano towards Camiliano, that is so delicious with a plate of, you know, Monte Veronese cheese and salami. And, you know, those kind of, more because there's quite hearty food in the in ito, actually, you know, there's a lot of kind of, quite rich hearty food. I think that some of the wines that have a little bit more residual sugar, I love a really nice extra dry with black color, you know, Oh, interesting. That's a delicious mix. And, anything that's got quite a lot of salt, any food that's got quite a lot of salt, or even food with quite a bit of, heat is delicious with some of those extra dry wines. But I think that, it's actually an incredibly versatile food wine, and you can see that, by the way, in which it's so popular, actually, and there's kind of casual dining in the UK, the the Belenda San Fermo, which is imported into the UK by lay carve, you will see that as the sparkling of choice on a lot of these wine bars that have these sort of sharing plates. And I guess the international versions of like Chicetti, you know, You you only have to look at the food culture of the Veneto and how it's so varied, how so mixed, and how it's kind of they really elevate the joy of the snack. Yes. And then and then realize how great these wines are with all of that. Yes. Indeed. And I even, you know, I think when I was with you in touring the area, we finished one evening with a wonderful meal of meats grilled over over a wood fire. And the sort of fattiness of the meats, the tasty charred meat was paired beautifully with some of the Corneliano Vald de biodele wines that had that freshness to really cut through the meat. And, you know, we tend to think that we need to drink red wines with grilled meats, but it's not the case. It was a very successful pairing that thought. Yes. That's Biedo, the spit that's a real classic of the region. So they have these little cuts of, don't they, of of chicken and pork that they put onto the skewer, and you have a little, you know, a little jointed pizza chicken, and then you'll have a a little bit of, like, lardo in between and a bit of courgette, and then they put on the next jointed bit of meat, and it's slow roasted over this bar. I had that when I was there a couple of weeks ago, which we had with actually some brute rivée wines, and it was absolutely delicious. And we had both the Coneliano of Aldelviano and April Secretary on the table, and then we also had some of the red wine of the colleague Coneliani, and I think it's just worth mentioning that in this region, unlike the heavy specialization of the newer region of the dog, in this region, there is a very rich and still living tradition of red and white grapes. And so there's a kind of a place on the table for all of these things, and they actually still make some really lovely merlot, Amansimino, cabernet franc, etcetera, towards the plain. Because what used to be planted on the plane is that the Pianora was, in fact, red grapes. So that, I think, also, might give you an idea might give people an idea of the different personalities of the canaliano of Aldobbiardene, the superior wind terwar, which is up on these hills, very high, nervy, and the more kind of round soft styles of the doc when you bear in mind that that terwar was historically more dedicated to red grapes. Actually, I remember that, Sarah. There used to be astrada delvino Bianco in between Conigna and Valda beyondinae and astrada delvino rosso, which was for the market Trevigiana. They called it. And and it was, as you say, white wines, then still, as well as sparkling, and the red wines from the flatter areas. But I'm going back a a long way. Since then, as you say, most of those vineyards now are cultivated in Galera, but, still some beautiful red wines. I I particularly like the Rifolsko Yes. That's wonderful. That, are very good with those grilled meats. But I did like that Perry, Sarah, I wanted to talk to you about another project you're very involved in, but I think it would be best if we actually made that another conversation. And that is the Old Vines conference. You're a cofounder of this. And I know this is a global collection of wine estates that have old vines, but I know Italy is very important in that. Can you briefly tell us about old vines and the old vines conference? Yes. So the Oldvine Conference is a non profit, separate to my marketing business, and I co founded it with some fellow, wine professionals, and master of wine, and the aim of the Old Fine Conference is to help establish a global category for Oldvine wine. And we are part of a network and actually a long standing network of grassroots organizations, grower organizations, journalistic organizations, who highlighted that these heritage vineyards often pre World War vineyards hold not just genetic diversity, varietal diversity, but also they kind of hold sort of lessons for us in agricultural, skill, and know how. And that in not valuing them, we are in danger of losing resource that we need. Either because of the genetic diversity and resilience that we may need to counter climate change, but also the cultural richness. And so that's what the Oldvine conference is about. We are a membership organization We have nearly seventy members now from all over the world, and we run research awareness campaigns, tastings, and conferences where we bring together experts in culture, sustainability, winemaking, and marketing. And our next conference is actually taking place in California in November this year. And we have an amazing Italian contingent coming over to show their wines, and we'll have speakers sharing how they not only the details of their cultivation, but what they've learned, for example, about avoiding and countering grapevine trunk diseases from what they've observed about the resilience of old vines pruned often basically pretty softly compared to the vulnerability of younger vines. So, yeah, so we have an amazing Italian contingent coming to the US in November. So take that, trumpy. Right. How many Italian estates are on the register? So the Oldfine conference is different to the register. So the Oldfine Oh, okay. With the membership organization Mhmm. And we have because it's about thirty Italian wineries and some incredibly famous names who've shown a lot of leadership. So for example, you know, San Leonardo, for example, Theodie de San Gregorio, but we also have a micro membership option for people who are really tiny, but who are working with incredible old vines. So we have producers, for example, in, all the world, well, from Frioli, Venetto, Priscilla, Tuscany, we have a Fattoria La Maliosa, who are working with these recuperated ancient white grapes. So it's just to have a look at all of our members in Italy, really an amazing snapshot of some of the most dynamic, exciting heartfelt wine producers of of Italy. The Old wine registry is a database. It's an online listing of old vineyards, and that it is free and open to any producer to submit their vineyard onto that registry because we know it's important to log what we have. So we've got a campaign running on that registry to have ten thousand old vineyards registered by twenty twenty seven, and we are just over four thousand five hundred vineyards now. And we've got quite a lot of Italian vineyards on there. And actually, it was having a quick look to see what we're up to now from Italy. We've got four hundred Italian Oldvine vineyards. And we have a friend here Chivilta Delberry, who set up the census of Italian Old vines several years ago, and whom we're delighted to collaborate with. So, yeah, I'm sure there's more. So come on Italian producers. Have a look at Irvine registry dot org and submit your vineyard. I guess the prevalence of such biodiversity, so many native great varieties all across in each of Italy's twenty regions means there must be old vines wherever they pretty well ever are because people continue to cultivate what their parents and grandparents and great parents and generations did. To me, that's the beauty of Italian wine to have this diversity, and I'm sure that's reflected in Old Vine's Sarah just in a wine glass, a short, a small wine glass. Tell us in terms of wine, what Old Vine wines have. Oh, so that's a really good question. I think that a great old vine, the right variety in the right place that has adapted to that place and typically is deeply treasured and kind of understood by its farmer and, of course, when those material, you know, the fruit of that vine are being respected and shaped by a great winemaker, then what they have is something just electric. You quite often read that old old vines give more concentration. Actually, I would challenge that. I don't think that grapevine is always about concentration. I think that what you have when you get this nexus of factors of this heritage, this skill, and the land when you have a really great old vine wine is this sort of electric energy and a really incredible integration and balance. And I see this quite a lot, so I hope it doesn't sound like I'm going on about this anything all the time, but it's like the light in someone's eyes. They just have this vivacity, this feeling of life, I have noticed I feel that you get a really beautiful, textural integration in great old fine wine. And so you can't define it as, oh, here's a flavor. Here's a taste of, but I think that you can acknowledge that by having these really old vineyards and everything that has entailed about it's being put into the right place, and now it's being crafted by the hand of someone for whom that vineyard holds meaning, that's like a muse effect. So I think that also old minds inspire a kind of genius and a kind of connection in some of our greatest winemakers, and that's also why I think they make such great wine. Well, that's a really beautiful description. And, I know what you means, sir, in my experience, is this energy, and paradoxically in vines that are very, very old. They have such life and freshness and vivacity and energy that you feel in your mouth when you taste the wine. Exactly. Yes. But I do have a look in I'd encourage people. Have a look at oldvine religious three dot org. There's some incredible Italian vineyards registered there. And then do have a look at Oldvines dot org as well for information on our Italian members. There's a profile on all of the members. You can find out what they're growing. Which wines they're making and so on. I'll certainly be doing that myself and look forward to chatting with you about this further as well as with Michelle Shaw, who is a very good representative of Old Vine's conference. In Italy and a great champion as well. Fantastic. Yes. She is. We have a network of regional ambassadors, and they promote the aims of the Oldvine Conference all over the world. And, Michelle does a great job in Italy, and I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank all of the members and volunteers and our network from the Old Fine Conference and the Old Fine registry because everyone who's doing it is doing it because they want to work together to create this value and nurture this incredibly important part of wine heritage and culture and resource. So it's always a humbling and inspiring thing to see so many people being willing to give their their time and and wine. To help do this. Absolutely. Sarah, our conversation has started talking when we began talking about wine heritage and culture, and this brings us back to, heritage and culture and what wine uniquely can give us So it's been a really inspiring conversation with you this morning. I've really enjoyed listening to your thoughts on so many different things. I hope you have a restful weekend ahead of you after hectic time in verona. In Italy, and I look forward to meeting you again over a glass of wine sometime soon. Oh, that would be lovely, Mark. Well, it looks like we have some sun. So, I can barely contain myself. Guess it was quite cold and verona at times. So I'm enjoying the sunshine. Yes. Oh, great. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for being our guest today, and I look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. All the best. Bye. All the best. Bye. We hope today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Miller, on the Italian wine podcast. Has transported you to somewhere special. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe, wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time, Chincin.