Ep. 1236 Niccolò Barberani | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Some of you have asked how you can help us while most of us would say we want wine. Italian wine podcast is a publicly funded sponsor driven enterprise that needs the Moola. You can donate through Patreon or go fund me by heading to Italian wine podcast dot com. We would appreciate it Oh, yeah. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Binin, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialties that pair naturally with their wines, and the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to one of Italy's most historic wine zones, Orovieto. To meet my guest, Nikolo Barbani, the winemaker at the family Barbarani wine company. Chow, Nikolo. How are you today? Is the sun shining over the beautiful Lago de Corvara? I'm very, very happy to be here with you today. And, I'd say it's, a beautiful rainy day here. But, that's very, very useful because the soil needs water. So we are very, very happy even if it's raining. Okay. So in this winter period, rain is very important for that moisture to penetrate deep into the vineyards. It is very very, very important, especially with our clay, limestone soils. It's, fundamental to Okay. Yes. It's really this. Now, Nicola, for our listeners who may not have been to Orvieto before and to the beautiful wine country that surrounds it. Can you please describe the countryside where you are and maybe also tell us a little bit about Orvieto, this this amazing historic city? Of course, Orvieto, it's really, really, a beautiful town and a beautiful area. It's one of the oldest ancient winemaking area of Italy. We have, we are very proud to have, three thousand years of history, innovate of winemaking. The traskets, we're making white nor vegato, but, let's describe a little bit about the the soil and the area. The area is one of the biggest d o c that we have, in Italy, their vehicle, you see, it's also going a little bit out in the latitude area just a little bit. And, it's mainly divided into macro areas, which is very, very important. Orrieta, it's very close to a lake that is called, Bolcina Lake, and another lake that is called Corbarra Lake. The Bolcina Lake is the oldest and biggest volcanic lake of Europe. So this volcano with the these eruptions created all the soils around the the west area of Orvieto. So the west part of the veneers are in a volcanic soil made of a two foot that is a volcanic rock. Then at the East area, they have closer to the umbria region and Tuscany. It's completely different. We have an older, older soil, sedimental soil. And in particular, where I am now in my company that is, just, close to the Coral Lake. That that is the Tiber River, the river that goes to Rome is taver. It's made with a very, very unique clay limestone, chaiaro soil. And, there was a sea here, about twenty five, but thirty millions years ago. So it's very, very old, very poor. But we know very well that in the all the soils in the poorer soil, the vines are growing in a marvelous way. Okay. That's a beautiful description. And an important one, I wasn't aware so much of that distinction between the twofold, this compacted volcanic ash, this stone soils that are very good for the vine, and also the limestone clay that's more sedimentary deposits by the lake. Now Orvieto itself, is, actually, the city is built on a butt of this Tufo stone. Is that right? And for centuries and millennia, the town itself was riddled with underground Caves. Yes. Yes. That's, that's something that is incredibly special about the Oviatto. It's a, volcanic to Fascist rock. It says that, maybe, it should be the the head to the top of the volcano volcano that, from this explosion, wow, format this, this beautiful, this beautiful rock. And, this rock, it's unique not just because of the the of the soil. And the and the the construction itself. So but it's unique because, Orviet, it's a very small town. But it's the second Italian city for the numbers of underground caves, in the town. And it's they are all hand carved. So this is pretty special and strange, but the there's a meaning with that. The traskans were the first population, leaving in the area around three thousand years ago. So very before the Romans, so very long time ago. And, those those capes were very useful for them because they were, taking out the rocks to build the the buildings. But also, they used the capes, for, for their, to to preserve, to evolve, their foot. And, especially wine. So they they were so smart and so brilliant in winemaking that they developed a unique technique that we even, use today in, with moderate, in modern ways, that is, something very, very special. It's called the the tree floor winemaking processes. They were using, the caves, in, underground, in three floors to make the wine. How the first the first four hour that was, with a temper temperature around the twenty five degree was to press the wine. So they presses the wine by fit. And then, slowly, the wine was going down in the second floor. There was, around fifteen degree. And, that was the perfect, perfect temperature for the fermentation of the wine, which is, incredible. Then after the fermentation, they made the wine flow in the third floor The third floor was, around five, degree of temperature. So it's perfect for the conservation. It was the the natural refrigerator we could say, of the ancient time. And that these methods, there is the same, same kind of method that they we even use today in a natural way to persevered to make the wine evolving in the wine making processes. So this is was, really, really something incredible. That's incredible, Nicole. That so in effect, the ancient, in ancient times under the etruscans and Romans through the middle ages, Orvieto benefited from the perfect conditions for making wine. Even today with stainless steel and temperature control, they they these conditions are only as good as what you naturally have in Orvieto. Yes. And, the evolution of the winemaking, was not stopped with the with the truck stands because the Romans conquered all the area. And, here, in our company and close to our company, we found, an old, Roman factory of, the wine containers, wine orchas. They were producing those containers. They were putting the one inside. The Tiber River was the highway of the Roman time. Okay. So they used the Tiber River to, ship the wine from here to Rome, and then from Rome, to all the Mediterranean area or the a Roman pair. So we can say even in Roman time, the only other wine was, exported in, all around the Europe. And that's that's beautiful. That's really, really amazing. That is amazing. Yeah. Then after that, in the medieval time, the church, the church state conquered. The the pope conquered all the area. And, the pope was very that is marked, I would say, because he kept Dorvedo. He said has his, holiday town. But, the real thing, it was that Orvedo is a natural fortified rock stop. He used the when in Rome, there were some problems. He used to escape in our vehicle. He just closed the door and it was safe. But he needed the two ticks, the water. And so he beat that, the Sematex well, which is something beautiful to see and to visit. And then he, you know, the, needed a, cathedral. So he built the the the duomo of forget, or the duomo cathedral, which is one of the most beautiful cathedral that we have in Italy. And, it's full of paintings. It's full of, really, really incredible hand trusted storms that we're making, using, and paying the painters and all the artisans, half in money and half in wine. And that all the paintings are surrounding by vines, by grapes. So the wines were wars again are really, really present in the culture of the medieval time here. Well, that's a wonderful, wonderful description of of the importance and centrality of wine throughout Orviet's history. And, of course, continuing today. Yes. We are very we are very proud to to continue this beautiful tradition, ma'am. Absolutely. Now tell me, Nikolo, I think I visited your winery in nineteen ninety. So it's a very long time ago, more than thirty years. Wow. But I recall, that in fact, originally, I think you hadn't moved to Basky that long ago. But you, the family had originally begun in those historic caves up at the top of the town. Is that correct? It is very correct. And I'm very happy that you, remember this because it's a part of the history. Of our family, obviously, but also part of the history of, or virtual town. My family, the barbarian family, it's, here in this, area, since, three hundred, four hundred years. After the second world war, my grandfather, Victoria, with his brothers, went to live in Norvedo town and opened the three most important bars of the town. And he was so so in agriculture, so much, in winemaking processes. It was, called the the the Lenardo da da vinci of the heart, because, it was a little bit of a genius. It was, building, agriculture instruments from the from the, all the charismatic of the second world war. So it was something very, very, he was a person who was very, very charismatic. And the salt with producing the it was producing the wine from the for the for the bats. And the wine was so good that Norvedo was, full of people visiting in the town that he decided in the sixty one to build up a a company and to put the label, Barbara, in this beautiful wine made here in this area. And, the the funny thing was that, at that time, our, wine making the processes. Our seller was, inside the underground teams of Orteeta, which is, something really crazy thinking about, the modern times, but for that time was, was really, really special. I have beautiful memories of that. And, and my father really, really build it, and grow, the company in in those beautiful games, making wine in the two four games, which is, something, really, really incredible. I remember, Robert Mondari coming to see, our, our, our, white seller. And he was, so surprised, and about that that he gave, a beautiful, beautiful presence to my to my father, remembering those unique unit, wine cellars. And so until the eighty, the early eighties middle of eighties, we were there working day making went there. Obviously, the, that was a little bit of a uncomfortable and not very easy to do. So we decided my father decided to move inside the vineyard, and the the most beautiful here of our our estate. He built the, a modern, a modern one seller with a very, very incredible sustainability concepts, which are, really, very modern. Even today, all the people that is coming to see our, our, to our company, our estate, is so surprised about, what we do here, using the natural resources, which is something really special. Consider that we build them the this this building. Like, it is an underground cave, so the humidity and the temperature is preserved. There is no air conditioning inside. It's all. There's a natural, Italian patent that is, conditioning in a natural way, all the area all inside the, the building of the cellar without using air condition. We use for ninety five percent all natural light in our cellar. We don't use electrical light. Imagine in the eighty five to, to see it, we invent such a beautiful, beautiful, the idea to work in a very, very sustainable and respectful way of our natural, which is, now, a beautiful, beautiful thing that I really we really enjoy every day here. Gosh, that's really visionary, Nikcolo, that that that your father had that that foresight to realize the importance and perhaps to try to replicate those beautiful natural conditions that were so inconvenient up in the town of Orvieto, but which were so perfect for winemaking. Yes. And now was it for this reason as well that you then also have decided, and I'm not sure when it was that you went completely organic. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. Yes. It's, it was very natural for us. We hold with, the first thing to say is that, where we are, we are in a natural protected area. It's the Tiger River Natural park, So the area is, is protected. You you cannot build the here. You cannot, use chemicals here. So, for us, to respect this beautiful ecosystem, which is, not just, for animals and plants, but also the microbiotic side of the ecosystem, it's, really, really well balanced. There's a beautiful harmony here. If you come here, you see around incredible forest. He is full of this green that is, typical from the region. Then there is the lake. So this water that is, it's the the mirror of the sun. And so the light that it that comes to the vineyard, it's really, really incredible and useful for the winemaking processes. And so this, harmonic side, this, incredible balance that we have, we want to preserve it. Our our, duty and our role here is not just to make it bind. Our role is to preserve what we have, is to respect what we have, to evolve it, to the maximum level. That's my focus, sir, and was my focus, my grandfather, and my father. And, me and my brother, we are, doing this, this job with this purpose. That's why we put, really a lot of efforts, not just to be organic, but, to respect our matter, in a many, many ways. Consider that for now, we don't use, any chemical products in Salibenas, even, not to the copper sulfide because, we don't need it. We we did, we did a lot of, of, experiment session with two different universities to develop a way, to use all natural products inside the vineyards, like, leaves, starting, it started from, algis or, rock dust that is very, very useful and very natural for the plants. And then we we try to do, see a cooler agriculture. So everything that the plants are giving to us from the wood of the stem, to the, everything that we take out, from the harvest. We put it inside the the soil of our greenhouse to fertilize it, to give it back to the plants. And then we do, organic fertilization also, obviously, but not just that we plant seeds every year, right, in autumn, to have a natural layer of fertilization and, to preserve this beautiful harmony of the soil, which is, incredibly incredibly important. And that's why we have, new vineyards, but we mostly have old vineyards that are, even fifty, sixty, sixty years old because of that, because the soil is very well back. Now, Nikna, let's talk about, the these all these incredible efforts to to get the best fruit to make a very special wine, Orvieto classical. Tell us tell our listeners what makes Orvieto, this wine that has been famous for hundreds and thousands of years even. What makes the wine of Orvieto so special? Orvieto, it's, as you said, has an incredible long story. And the the the character of the spearhead of the or better wine and the of the or better soil is pretty unique. Main, main, main, many, a lot of people is saying that, Portieto area is, one of the best area to make, especially white wines in, in Italy. Because, of the soil, because of the unique recognition between those two lakes, and later we'll talk about it. And, but the grapes that we use are pretty unique too. The original blend of the ghetto was, from, five grapes. But now we are focused and, my company and my family, me and my brother, Bernardo, we are focused to using only our indigenous groups. So for us, the Orvieto is made with the which is the the prints of our white grapes, especially in how our area is developing in a incredible way. And the Trebiano Procarnigo, which is a a Trebiano that grows typically in this area. So those two varieties are working together in an amazing way. The is very powerful considering that it's one of the, few white grips that is developing the tendons inside. The soldiers are a a beautiful, strong part of the wine, and that another part of this very fruity and, and aromatic all that. And then the Trebiano is giving, elegance to the wine, and it's giving a lot of, a polar and, banana, and, some incredible aromas. So they're working together in an amazing way, and they'll get a wine. It's not a wine that is, taking you for his power up or for his, incredibly high quality containers or stuff like that. Over the wine is good and is very famous for is elegance. The our soils and our, and our climate condition is giving to the wine incredible elegance, incredible drinkability. And, that's that that does not mean that the wine is easy, but it means that the wine, it's, elegant. It's enjoyable. You can pair it with a lot, really, a lot of, amazing food. And it's a wine that is, lasting for a very, very long time, even if it's a white. This is a a character that is pretty unique because most of the whites are lasting for two, three years, and then they're not good, but they're very whites are lasting for five, ten, twenty years in an incredible evolution way. So it's really, really interesting. I am pretty, really unique. Well, that's that's a beautiful description. And I think elegance and drinkability are so important in in in the best wines. So that is a those are great attributes. Now, Nikolo, you you've also mentioned the particular climate and microclimate conditions, which sometimes arise in in autumn months, I guess, that lead to a very, very special wine. Let's talk now about Kalkaya, about about, these amazing dessert wine that you are producing. Yes. I'm very happy that you you mentioned it because, Ernesto Aria, and especially where we have, close to the Colorado Lake, close to the Tiger River. It's really something that is unique in Italy. We have the only area of it that can spontaneously, develop the botrytis, the knobber rot. And, it's something that is an old tradition. Even the Transkans and the Romans were making it. And, so we are, we, my father, was the first one that was thinking about it. And, by chance, he happened that they found out this, developing of this, of this mold to this mushroom growing around the grapes. So what's what's let's talk about what it is really. Here in a autumn time, from the middle period of the September. We have a special and chronic condition. We have the a lot of humidity during the night. So if you come here, you can see anything fog everywhere. Then during the day, around nine nine thirty, it comes the wind and the sun. So the all the humidity, all the fog is fading away. And the there is a dry, dry, climate condition. This, duality makes them a lot of a rot that is the normal rot that is growing around the fluids or, everywhere. When you forgot, your apples, in your house or whatever, you know. But this, with this kind of condition, it develops in a special way. It's called botrides. It's called the noble road. And why noble? Because it's growing only outside the berries and not inside. So growing outside means that, this, this mold is searching for water. So it's, doing a little little holes inside the the skin of the berries, taking out the water, so concentrating the sugar mass, but not just the sugar mass also even also the acidity and giving to the grapes and to the fluids, amazing aromas, utter amazing trends, incredible, components inside the wine that are, that that you will discover later in the wine that really really drink and give it to the wine, something very, very special. So, my father is working with this kind of, when making method and process from the seventies. And in the eighties, He came out to be the first label of the which is a sweet dessert wine, but I'd say to call it, the wine is, it's not, properly good because it's more. This sweet wine is not sticky. It's not heavy. It's not, just for a for a sweet. But it's a wine that is so complex. It has this beautiful acidity that it's still very, very fresh that you can pair it, not just, by himself, and not just with sweets, but also with, amazing, amazing food. And, like, I've said, cheese is the first choice. If you have some goat cheese or blue cheese, the pairing is outstanding here with the traditional food. We pair it also with the peach on the liver, which is something very, very special to try. But, if you go, in the seaside, you can pair it with oysters, which is, crazy to think about it. But if you try it, it will be, you know, incredibly impressed because the this beautiful sweetness. And then this, this very fresh is cleaning the the the flavor of the hoist that's in your mouth and give you an experience of this outstanding greeting. And then also, I I'd say you can pair it with the Christmas sweets. Like the Palitone on the Corona. It's really a perfect pair pairing this wine. And the complexity that the the the botrada's number rock is giving to the wine is something that is, really, really, really, special. We're using our traditional grape, the Orvieto traditional grape. So it's, again, the delbino grapes, but, this, this, this mo this moat is giving to the grapes, aromatic flavors. So, if you try, I will try this wine, and forget about this wine, you'll find a a bouquet of flavors that is, so big. So high being so special that you ensure I'm pretty sure you've never tried before. And there are those are wines that can last for forever, for really forever, and growing in a bundle. You're an amazing way. Yes. It is one of the great, great dessert wines of Italy, and I would say of the world. I haven't tried it for a little while, Nikolo, but I I have, incredible memories of of of tasting Kalkaya. And I know it's still available here in the UK through the wine society. So, it's it's a wine. I really urge people to sample if you are able to get a hold of it. Now you mentioned a little bit about the the pairing of Kalkiah and also that Orvieto itself, the Orvieto classico is such a versatile wine, a wine that goes so well, both with the traditional foods of umbria, as well as with international cuisine, cuisine from everywhere. It really is a food wine. It is. It is a lot. And, that's that's one of the reason of, of the big success of the ghetto because of the paling, thinking about the history of our ghetto. We also have, the character of the better wine that is not very, or just dry, but we also produce the, the medium dry wine. It's a yeah. It was an old tradition in our ghetto to keep a little bit more the grapes, in a little bit of late harvest, in Venus. And this tradition, means the one that is even more drinkable, even more enjoyable, and even more terrible with, with food. So I imagine my my wife's pairing with a lot of foods. You you can you can pair or get with truffles with mushroom, with sushi, it's outstanding. So you can try it with a lot of things and enjoy very, very much. Well, Nicola, thank you so much for for being my guest today and for taking. Our listener is on a trip not only to beautiful, umbria, to Orvieto, to the late Cabara, but also back in time, to when wine was made by etruscans and Romans and through the middle ages. It's been a really fascinating, discussion with you. And I hope our our listeners will pay a trip to Orvieto and visit the Barbaroni winery or seek your wines out wherever they are. It's a it's about time I came back to meet you again, and I hope I can do so sometime soon. So thank you very much. Thank you, Mark. I'm inviting everyone to come to our ghetto and, see the beautiful town, obviously, and to come to our state, to be our guest. We have a beautiful, a very small country house, and we organize wine tours. We have two wine shops, so it's really, really a beautiful experience in there. Real natural, natural. Nature. So please enjoy. I wait for you, obviously, Mark, to come back and, enjoy a glass of castaya and luigi Joanna with us. Thank you very much. Oh, I can't wait. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here, or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwinepodcast dot com. Until next time.