Ep. 1474 Gennaro Effuso | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Since twenty seventeen, the Italian One podcast has exploded and expects to hit six million listens by the end of July twenty twenty three. We're celebrating this success by recognizing those who have shared the journey with us and giving them the opportunity to contribute to the on the success of the shows. By buying a paper copy of the Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a donation to help the ongoing running costs, members of the international Italian wine community will be given the chance to nominate future guests and even enter a price draw to have lunch with Stevie Kim and Professor Atigioshenza. To find out more, visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Billen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we'll learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, I travel. Well, actually, I'm traveling just about five miles downriver from where I live in Southwest England. A long ex estuary to the seaside town of Xmith where my guest, Genaro Efuso lives and works, and runs his business, natural growth wines, specializing in natural wines primarily from Italy. Janara, it's a real pleasure to meet you here today. Thank you so much for being my guest. How are you? Very well. Thank you very much, Mark, for having me in, onto your show. Is absolutely my pleasure actually to, yeah, to be able to present a natural group wine. Well, that's great. I mean, it's a pleasure for me that, somebody with so much knowledge and enthusiasm in bringing in such interesting wines is located so close to me. So I'm glad we've we've met up. Now, Janaro, first of all, tell us a little bit about your background, where you're from and and how you ended up both in wine and in Xmith. Well, I'm I'm Italian originally from, from Naples, from South Italy in, Compania. It's been a long journey since nineteen ninety seven. I've I was hospitality based, since, on I've trained, from Italy on around, England. Obviously, wine as a passion that has grown on me through the years. And until, I decide to make a make a have an input and, build my own sort of venture. Natural natural wines is something that I've Yeah. This is I've I've grown up with, in in a way, and there's something that I really wanted to, you know, find the place where I could, or say, make a make a difference. And, I end up in, Xmov in twenty nineteen when I've, I was working for Limster Manner with, Michael Kane. And, it was the I was there until, I decided to start off, my own venture, because Devon seems the right place where I could sort of spreads the, the, the, the knowledge about it. So, yeah, we're just went home since. Yes. You so you were working at Limston Manor with my good friend, Michael Kane, a very good place with, excellent wine list, and now it's own wine coming from the vineyard in front of the manor. But that's another story. Your story is is very interesting. So you grew up in the middle of Naples. You're a neapolitan. A beautiful city, one of my favorite cities in Italy, a crazy city, a noisy city, and you're now living in a pretty quiet town on the seaside, in in Devon. So it's a a little bit of a transition, but you still buy the sea. Absolutely. I think that's what it kept kept me staying to be fair, because, yeah, obviously, traveling traveling around for for a few years. I think X Smith is very much where I sort of found my my route again by by the seafront. Probably not the sunniest, but definitely a beautiful place to, to leave and to be, obviously, start off with the the the the the new venture. Sure. I'm not sure. Grove wine has been, I'm glad to say there has been a a developing sort of business since started. In two thousand and twenty. This has been the the the the natural sort of wine understanding as as has an still, massively growing. Yes. It is very much a new, a new field. Even though as you say, these are wines that are made. Kome univolt, wines that were made as wines, have always been made. Janari, you started in two thousand twenty. That was a very brave time. That was a year of the pandemic. Unexpectedly, yes, is, when I well, obviously, I I wasn't, I wasn't aware of, like, like, all of us that it was going to happen. So I had everything ready to go. And it wasn't fun enough. It was literally a week before it all started. That, I was ready to launch. But that, that didn't stop, me. Yeah. I had I had too much, yeah, too, it was already to, you, turn back. So I still went for it. And it was, we, well, developed from what it was meant to be a a a shop, a wine shop to an wholesaler. And, so I think I think us now is the nature of businesses primarily based on wholesale. And gladly so because there's plenty of great independent businesses around Devon, there are really, as exciting as they can be to embrace the the the the wine sort of concept. So Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that's the case. Because it's not easy selling wines of any sort and especially selling wines that are less well understood, perhaps, amongst general consumers. So let's talk about what a natural wine is. There isn't any precise definition or classification, but it's very clear in your mind what constitutes a natural wine, the sort of wines, the sort of people that you want to represent because it's not just the wines in the bottle, is it? It's also about the people who are behind that, their philosophy, their way of farming, their way of life. Absolutely. You're one hundred percent, correct there. These first, as you said, there is no definition as a such, but, I think primarily is, there is nothing to define. Natural wine, just wines that are made in the right way. And as I was talking to one of the producer, a few weeks ago. And he said, well, what we're trying to do is just trying to, reestablish what our grandfather used to do. So we're not trying to bring no new movement to no, reinvent anything. And is pretty much a and as, again, as you said, yeah, there is when it comes to natural winemaking, there is law is not just about the great variety, but is the to consider, in a in a large sort of you know, a part of the the binification. And again, the the the the the producer behind it is personal sides, that that really reflects, into into the the end sort of, product. As a matter of fact, you'll see, you know, some some wine producer that are really, I mean, by looking at that way of ease, it really, you really can feel reflecting that into the winemaking. Yes. Yes. Well, let's discuss some of the elements. As you say, there's no cise definition, but the people that you're working with, the Italians you're working with, would define it, I suppose, as low intervention. And what does that actually mean? Us, obviously, as a low intervention, you know, is, is considered the the the no action, when it comes to the, beauty culture and when it comes to the unification. I think there is these are, obviously, the main, facts that, you know, we need to consider without without taking no action, like a human sort of action. So, we allow in the the the soil and the terroa to to to do what they the best at, and, making sure that, everything that happens around the the grapes, influence the the grape as a such. And then no chemicals. No chemicals. No pesticides. A really, avoiding those treatments that are going to affect the finished wine, but also affect the environment. Absolutely. I mean, again, as you as you said, affects the, the the fruits and, obviously, refrain the involvement to act on it, which to a certain extent, you know, we shouldn't, we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be doing that as, as a matter of fact, when we drink wine. We want. We do want, the environment to be, to reflect on to to feel the influence, from it. And at at the one of one one of the major sort of, facts about, no intervention is obviously the when it comes to the unification as well that obviously, most most of, conventional winemaking, the we're talking about when we're talking about conventional winemaking, we're talking about forced fermentation, where in, that is not acceptable in natural winemaking. And by saying that we're talking about spontaneous fermentation. So without the without the initiation, by using, chemical sort of yeast. So we allow in the, indigenous sort of yeast, the yeast does grow around the vineyard and in the cellar to act as spontaneously onto the wine and give the real sort of character to the wine itself, which Yeah. It does it does, influences the wine. Yeah. Okay. So that's a very important point. The native Yee indigenous East on the bloom of the grapes, once the grape So are crushed and pressed that yeast will begin eating the sugars and causing the fermentation without pitching in yeast that has been cultured in a laboratory. And many winemakers I've spoken to say that the yeast is really the soul of the wine. So it's a very important part of of the natural approach. Absolutely. Also, a minimal use of sulfites. But, yes, sulfites, I think is is, is one of these things that, you know, there's always a little bit of a misconception about it. That was a sulfide. It's something that in in a minimum sort of quantity naturally do occurs on on fruits on to any product. It just gives has, any any sort of fruits or, you know, natural sort of product growing from the grounds, has the minimum sort of a live sort of shelves. But again, there is the, major sort of fact that conventional winemaking, wants to make sure that wines, they do last as long as possible. They are, as clean as possible, in a way that, the dorm, yeah, that because there's is a is a, obviously, a large set of there's a a large conversation to be a large field to be explored there, in a way that, is by starting from the beauty culture, you know, if you don't, if you use if you if you've not been really caring about your your your vineyard, obviously, that develops, you know, all sorts of different defects and sulfides are used in vinification to hide this defect. So that's that's unacceptable. But, on the ultimate of stage, there is, a little bit of, allowance, which is at the bottling. And it's very much something that, some people, yeah, there is a large discussion there where some people obviously do allow, the very minimum in terms of to to, to preserve for transportation. Some people do not allow that in, in any sort of case. But There is very much a bit of a debate, which in any sort of case does not affect the wine at all. Yes. So we're really talking about the minimal required, additional sulfites. Because of to to to express the, you know, the purity of the fruit. So really, Genaro, when we say natural wines, often these are, the vineyards are organic or possibly biodynamic, whether or not certified. Certification isn't the issue. It's really about this approach, this philosophy to create wines that are as pure an expression of the terroir. As possible. But within that, Janara, there are also, a number of techniques that natural winemakers might use that give wines a fascinating range of flavors. I'm thinking about for example, some of the pet nat, sparkling wines or, for example, the skin contact whites, the so called orange wines. So we've really got ranges of flavors of wines, that you don't necessarily find in conventional. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. No. There is, again, the, the, the certification discussion about it. And as you well said, is definitely definitely shouldn't, is is not something that defines the DVD culture and the beautification. As a matter of fact, I always I'm I'm a great believer that you should know the people behind the the winemaker. So you know exactly how it's made because even certification doesn't tell you really much about how the wine is made. Going down to the, pet nuts and the orange wines, these, again, we're going back to the fact that are very, old sort of, vinification where they the web they were made in Asian sort of, time perhaps. Petnet is is the the what what recalls as a natural sort of, fermentation, as a matter of fact, wines to, to be kept to give the the great sort of, character were started, were given, the possibility to start, fermenting and then reverse into bottle. Where the they would finish the where the the natural sort of fermentation would occur and finish. I tasted with you the other night, a fascinating, wine made by Valentina Cooby, the Athenaatus, that was a beautiful, pet not, that I I I had never tasted anything like it. It was from the Corvina grape. That's correct. Yeah. Valentina Cubis, is, is a great example of here. All we're talking about, so far. And she's a great producer in, Fermana, which is just outside Balpolicello. And, although she's really attached to her own sort of tradition. She has produced, this, a pet not sort of style, which she calls as a matter of fact as Antonatus sort of connecting the, the the winemaking sort of style, and bringing it back to to history. And she's producing this hundred percent Corina, which starts in a steel open back sort of fermentation. And then by, cold stabilization, they they slow down the fermentation and then, into bottle where defermentation restarts and finish soft. So and that's a great example of, a pet nut sort of style. Obviously, what that does, it creates this. It leaves the wines on on his own Liz, on his own sort of residual given a great sort of texture, great sort of building up sort of character. And again, the the fact that the fermentation finish soft in bottle is almost we're almost there to talk about re fermenting in bottle where he accused that little sparkling sort of sides of the wine again, creating that beautiful sort of textures. Yeah. I thought that was a beaut beautiful one. I really enjoyed that. And, turning now to another wine that I I enjoyed with you. Which is of the orange style that we're talking about. The skin contact white. Let's talk about the wines from, a very interesting range of wines from Campania. That's correct. Yeah. Roberto is Again, a great example of, yeah, natural winemaking, and what we tasted, the we've tasted the piano, and one of his primitive Rosato, the fiano is, a great example of skin contact wines. Again, skin contact wines, is nothing different than what they used to do many years ago. Skin contact is, wines, white grapes, basically, the, fruit emacuation are longer kept on the skin just as much as red wine is. So the white wine goes through, the same process. So allowing the skin to remain in contact with the squeeze sort of juice and all the, the goods, from the fruits from the skin to give that great character to the wines. And as a matter of fact, I'm sure you remember the piano had this incredible, so you've sort of layers of honey flavors, chamomile, that is all obviously all influenced by the the skin sort of contact. Yeah. A beautiful texture, Janato, a a texture that had, you know, with we don't expect a little bite of tannin in white wines normally, but they were very gentle tannins. In there. So the texture, the flavors, the aromas, were really intriguing and so different from a fiano fermented and stainless steel, you know, a more modern style, which can be, of course, wonderful too, but this is a different style. Robert is, is, on, deal area, original, denomination, area of the Rockham and Feena, which is at the bottom of an distinctive sort of volcano. I mean, the the soil are, solid volcanic soil, soil. So great sort of character. Roots are, they are allowed to be obviously deep down into the soil where the goods and minerals do leave. I mean, by tasting the think is a great example of what, Rebecca does, but even is, one hundred percent premature, again, is a, yeah, a wonderful sort of Genardo, I enjoyed these wines recently with you, at a wine dinner that you hosted at the wonderful salutation inn in my town, Topsham, where Tom Williams Hawk has created a a really lovely and high quality fine dining restaurant and and chef Luke worked with you to match his fabulous cuisine with the range of wines that you suggested. But I what I found so interesting with natural wines, and indeed, as we sat around that table and I spoke with some of the other guests at night is is how well these wines that, you know, maybe aren't what sort of wine you would just have standing up as a glass of wine on its own, but, there there are wines that are meant to be enjoyed with food. And food at all levels. Foods from simple foods, very simple foods, pasta, or salumi, to the really considered and sophisticated cuisine that we enjoyed the other night. Tell us about why the range of wines you have the natural wines But above all, the natural Italian wines go so well with food. As as as we said, the beginning of the the the conversation, obviously, here, we're we aren't talking about wines, the the holly, define the great variety. But, the the terror the involvements, the yeast that grows around, the vineyards, and, obviously, ultimately, the, winemaker sort of influence. So, I mean, just by saying that it just describes the layers and layers of character that goes, through these wines. And then obviously that's definitely one one of the things to keep in mind, in terms of expression, you know, wine expression, which obviously, you know, we we said we we said about the food, the wonderful food that, Luke and Tom had created at the at the dinner. Which by the dishes by themselves, where had layers and layers of flavors, which allows the wine to to to to be a to be a playground, you know, to to pick from different, layers. So you can imagine the, you know, the the the difference character, the different element from the the soil, which are able to pick from the dishes. So we're not talking about straight, straight sort of forward wine where you only go about few elements, few different flavors, to to play with, which is very much down to the conventional sort of site where you've got these wines are, clean, really, really, simple in a way. But here, we're talking about, with natural sort of wine, we're talking about complexity that has, enormous sort of amount of flavors and minerals that the food. Yeah. And I think those flavors really, really helped to bring out the complexity and flavors of the dishes. One of my favorites that evening was Luke's Devon Crab with watermelon, gazpacho, and lemon verbena, which you paired with the and, it was already really fascinating because you had a little bit of sharpness from, I think, it would have been sherry vinegar in that, and and it was really lifted by by that rich and complex piano. Oh, yeah. You're absolutely right there. I mean, I found the the even the, the beef tartar with the the the next course, the beef tartar with the with the primitive or Rosato, which are yeah. It brings the the the dish, brought the dishes to a a different level. And it's just purely because obviously the the beef, very highly sort of structured, a dish. Yeah, had the wine there had the possibility with the with the great sort of level of acidity to just elevate what the beef sort of structure was. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I think for me, that's when when wine and food pairing works best and is exciting is when the wine enhances the food and the food also enhances the wine. So it was very successful, Janara. Now, Janara, I know you have a busy day today. So I think we'll wrap things up here. It's been great to meet you here. But it'll be more fun when we get together soon, for a glass of wine or two. But, thank you so much for being my guest today, and I hope you have a great day. Thank you so much. Mark, it was absolutely my pleasure. And thanks very much for give me the opportunity to, yeah, to talk about natural wines, and primarily about the few producer, which are the the one that deserve the the most, yeah, accolades, I suppose. Okay. Thank you, Jeanardo. Civelliamo presto. Ciao. Ciao. Ciao. Ciao. Ciao. Ciao. We hope you enjoy today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Miller. On Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here, or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.