Ep. 1504 Michèle Shah | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Since twenty seventeen, the Italian wine podcast has exploded and expects to hit six million listens by the end of July twenty twenty three. We're celebrating the success by recognizing those who have shared the journey with us. And giving them the opportunity to contribute to the ongoing success of the shows. By buying a paper copy of the Italian wine Unplugged two point o or making a donation to help the ongoing running costs, members of the international Italian wine community will be given the chance to nominate future guests and even enter a prize draw to have lunch with Stevie Kim and Professor Atigio Shenza. To find out more, visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we'll learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to Hawaiian Food and Travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, I'm absolutely delighted to welcome a good friend and fellow member of the circle of wine writers, who is a real specialist and expert in Italian wine, both as a wine writer and communicator, as well as as a wine consultant, Michelle Shah. Michelle, thanks so much for being my guest today. How are you? I'm fine, Mark, and it's, it's lovely to hear you and honored to be here with you. So, yes, beautiful day, and I actually in Sweden, not in my beloved Italy today. Well, I was going to ask you about that. I was imagining you in this baking hot weather that Italy has been suffering from, but in fact, you're in a beautiful spot where it's a little bit cooler. That's right. That's right. You know, as, Italy is most enjoyable, I would say outside, the hottest months up until June, and then, you know, from September onwards, July and August can be quite fearsome in heat. And also a lot of people, everybody wants to come and visit Italy. Yes. Of course. Now have you noticed as well over the years that this heat and and, you know, the the the effects of climate change are are really impacting on the way you can live and enjoy life in Italy apart from the impact on wine growers? Most definitely. Yes. I mean, I don't think it's that much fun really, you know, for people coming from the northern hemisphere, you know, into the, you know, heat and then not being used to it and, having to cope. And, you know, when you're a tourist, you want to go out, you want to explore everything, you want to try everything, you want to eat well, you know, so you wanna eat plenty of lee, and then all this in the heat is is is quite a challenge, really. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it it it can be quite trying. I'm looking at pictures of people you know, tourists in Rome, for example, and it just looks too hot this year. Oh, you gotta have you have to go and jump into that fountain down there. Yes. I think a lot of people are in that fountain. Yes. And, yes. I mean, in the north, there's been a lot of hailstorms. We're serious ones, you know, with with, hail as big as tennis balls. Yeah. I've seen pictures of that. And also, I know, that, like, and Stevie and the team in Verona have they've been saying that the hail has just been frightening. And, of course, it can cause such damage to vineyards in a split minute or two. It can strip them of everything. So it's very, very worrying. Absolutely. Michelle, tell me, and share with our listeners a little bit about your background, where you you're from and how you ended up in Italy? Well, Yeah. I was born in the UK, and, my parents, were neither really British nor, nor Italian. They were a mixture of, a German Czech Austrian. But we were living in in UK, and, when I was, six, we we moved out to Italy. I was absolutely amazed, you know, a six year old coming out to Italy. I think my first experience was eating an ice cream. That same day I arrived, and I don't think I'll ever forget that experience. But then, anyway, I went back to, I went back to England for boarding school, and I came back to Italy for my holidays. And then, at the age of about seventeen, eighteen, I I moved to South Africa with my parents, and I stayed there a couple of years, in Cape Town, and then I moved back to Italy, back to liguria, which is where, we had been living. And, so I moved back there to the area of Santa Margarita Portofino, and, and stayed there until until I decided to move to Rome, which, where I spent eleven years And by that time, I was working as a consultant to an NGO company based in Rome, an English company called Agrisystems, and we serviced the UN organizations such as, FAOP, E FAD, so I was really doing their PR work within those international agencies. So I had no actually, I had no thoughts about, going into wine. That was, that came into a second, a second sort of section of my life. What was the damascene moment? What made you really want to dedicate your your working life to mine? You know, growing up in Italy or or I can say partly growing up in Italy, your sort of open to this wonderful culture of, food and wine, which is definitely a culture, I mean, sitting around the table, and even at our house, so my my parents were were very, they were very keen on, talking about, you know, the food and the wine that, we had at the table. And so it it made a great impression on me how important this part of culture or, you know, how enjoyable this all was and how much, you know, gave us to think about, they always gave me a very small glass of wine, which of course at that age, you know, growing up, I wasn't that, you know, I didn't really appreciate it. Mind you, I did appreciate. I I was always given a a glass of Lambrusca Mabiile, when I when they were going out, when I was left with a babysitter, that was like my, you know, be good prize, glass, Lambrusca, and rose chicken, and, you know, I was guaranteed to behave myself. I'm I'm wonderful. What a good idea. That was in replace of the gelato that you first sampled. Yes. Yes. That's true. Those were my initiations. Wonderful. Yeah. So so gradually, you you then began to work in the world of wine? Well, yes. I mean, I I, I I worked in Rome until I was about forty ish, and then I, actually then I decided to take some time off, and I took a, a university degree with open university in history of art concentrated on the sort of art of the renaissance. And then, by sort of fortuitous chance, I I socially met with, James Suckling, who, at the time, was the, European chief editor of wine spectator, and, because he was living a justice sort of across the valley, from where we were living in in, in Tuscany, and he had really just moved to Italy and was looking to set up his office and was looking to, find, you know, somebody who could help him set up tastings, and, maybe do some sort of, writing for the wine spectator, website on Italian news. And, and so, yes, I said, yeah, that sounds great. You know, I mean, I was looking to do something, and I said, well, wow, that's that's fantastic. I mean, that's really, you know, I'd love to do that because, I mean, at that stage, I loved wine. And, you know, used to go when I was living in Rome, I came very often not to to Tuscany or to Piedmont to buy wine in a Damijana because that I'm talking about a long time ago, about forty years ago. And I would go to some producers who now, you know, would definitely not sell their wine in Demigiana, which is a demijohn. Of course. And then I would bottle it at home. Siphoning it out yourself then. Right. That would be, you know, that would be my house wine. Yes. I can remember doing that myself when we lived in Tuscany. And sealing it with all your analogical, not even a crayon con That's right. Then you have to sort of siphon that house from Lamejana, and then you yeah. By force of gravity, you fill up the bottles, and then you know, I had my own sort of I didn't cork it. I had a crown cork because, you know, it was gonna go in six months, so you didn't need to have proper cork on it. Those are the things that you you you know, that's that's how I, you know, learned to discover in a very small way, wine and wineries and wine growers. And and ever since then, it's, it's kind of like expanding and it's really my passion you know, has been my passion for the last twenty years. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting, Michelle, because you're really talking about living through this transition as Italian wine, you know, has moved from that, you know, when you would go to restaurants and The choice would be Bianco Rosa. You know, there wasn't there weren't buy you weren't buying labels necessarily and and and going to the producers and buying fifty four liters of, you know, a demijohn and and and bottling that at home. To now know how Italian wine, this renaissance of Italian wine, which you will have lived through and which you are part of now. You know, where we see wines, both simple wines and and exalted wines really able to reach international markets, national markets, and so much excitement and interest. So it's an an exciting period you've lived through and are still very much a part of. I'd say very much so. When you talk about that renaissance, I definitely lived it. I mean, think I sort of stepped in as it was sort of starting and, you know, Italian wines weren't weren't as widely exported as they are today. And every producer I met when I was working for the publications I was working for, from wine spectator to Decant and then, wine business international They all asked me. One of their first questions or last questions were, how can I export my wines? Can you help me to export my wines? So this, you know, this was something that, was at the core of their, need because, you know, it's great to make wine, but at the end of the day, you have to sell your wine, you have to make, you know, ends meet. So this was something that, hadn't developed or was was in the developing stages. Let me say, and wasn't as well developed, as it is, obviously, today. Even today, Michelle, you're still getting assets in question. I'm sure. Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, I have my own sort of, from from this, from, you know, starting to write about wine. I have a very you know, soon found that, you know, it was necessary to assist the producers, and then I started organizing, B2B events. I I started also collaborating with a number of consolidos around Italy, some of them I still have as my clients, and helping them plan events for international press, for international importers to be able to, you know, help them expand their exports to international markets. Sure. Now what's interesting for me out of this, Michelle, is that you began as a communicator. You began as a writer working for the wine spectator and communication really lies at the heart of what you're doing as much as sales, really. Because Italian wines have such wonderful stories, and that is, one of their great strengths. Oh, yes. I mean, you know, you've got, you've got twenty regions in Italy. Each region obviously offers, a unique set of varieties in in, you know, in grape varieties, and you got this, you know, local cuisine that, that, it matches seamlessly to to their wines. And, you know, all this is all part of their culture and their tradition, and it's all integrated, you know, as you as you go from the length of Italy from the from the north or the south, you can see you know, how how everything, changes, the grape varieties, the foods, of course, there are basic, basic ingredients at the base of many of the recipes, but how each and every region does does things differently. And, you know, the the Italians are extremely can I say, I wouldn't say nationalistic, but, you know, each region it's it's very individualistic? And, within each region, I remember I was brought up in liguria. So, pesto is a big, the big dish of, liguria. And from village to village, honestly, they could each make a different type of pest or say, nope. Mine's better because I do this. And the other one would say, no, will I do this? And, you know, you could have about thirty or forty different variations of pesto within that thin strip of liguria. And even using more or less the same ingredients. Absolutely. I mean, they are so creative. Do you have your own special way of making pesto still? Oh, yes. I do. Should I tell you? It's my secret. Yes. I'd like to know that secret. Well, I learned I learned it from when I was living in liguria, I spent my summer months as, working working on a beautiful Camper Nicholson sailing boat. Oh, wow. Wonderful. Yeah. It was absolutely and and so I was the sort of dog's body, what do you say? The bottle washer, you know, I put do do the sort of cabins, like, shopping and assist everybody else. And my my favorite, my favorite memories and I had a great, relationship with the, with a chef, a wonderful man who could cook anything and everything. I mean, I'd wake up in the mornings, and I'd wake up to, to the, the smell of Foccaccia, Focachella pizza, you know, it was all wafting up. Wow. Wonderful. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like. And a follow anywhere you get your pods. I could just smell that at six o'clock in the morning as he was baking that, and he taught me he taught me how to make Payskah. And, so of course, you need, you need your garlic, you need your pine nuts, you need your basilica, and, of course, the the ligurium basilica is different from the task in basilica because the leaves are smaller, on the liguria and and slightly more delicate. More pungent in flavor? No. The tuscan ones in a way are more pungent. Uh-huh. They're bigger and more pungent. And then, you know, you you have your olive oil and you you blend all this together, if you're going to eat it straight away, you can also blend in some pecorino or mayano, but he used, parmigiano. He didn't use the most recipes say. He he used parmigiano. And, he would also blend in a little bit of, cream cheese, just just just to make it sort of a little smoother. Oh, that must be a secret ingredient. It it was. I mean, it would come out, you know, a sort of light ish lime kind of, green. And, and then of course, when you cook your pasta, as the pasta comes to its cooking point, you take a bit of little bit of water from the saucepan cooking the the pasta, and you put that into your pest or to dilute it a bit because if you dilute it with olive oil, it's just too rich. So you need to dilute it with a bit of water. And I've forgotten at the same time as you cook your pasta, you put in some green, some some green beans, fresh green beans, and some, potatoes, peeled potatoes, cut up. So that when you take the pasta out, the beans and the potatoes are cooked at the same time, and all that is mixed in to your pastel pesto. Wow. That sounds absolutely fabulous. You've made me very hungry. Well, you just have to come and visit me one day. We can have a a plate of pasta pasta together. Well, you're on. I'll definitely do that. Michelle, another project I know you're passionate about, what you'd like to touch on. Is the Old Vines project. You're an ambassador for Italy because Italy as a country is really fortunate to still have an absolute wealth of incredible old vines, some pre philosopher. Tell us a little bit about old vines, why they're important? Well, I mean, they're they're important. They're a symbolism of heritage, really. Also, the genetic material, these ancient varieties are often forgotten, you know, the old vineyards. And so, you know, it's very important, I think, as a cultural and a heritage, and also of genetic value, we can learn so much to save them and, you know, they teach us so much about how vines can adapt to the changing climate. And as well as obviously being, I think, very often, So so rich in in in savor. I mean, they're they're they're, you know, they can they can give out some absolutely spectacular spectacular wines. They as they say in it in Italy, they have an extra gear. It's, it's a pity to see, you know, these these wonderful old vines just being sort of grabbed up and planted with with new vines, which which would take, you know, years and years to get to the expression, level of expression balance and harmony that these vines can give us. I remember going when I was in South Africa, I went to see the the Old Vine project, Rosa's, project there. And, you know, talking about the Old vines as they were you know, looking after old pensioners that, you know, they need to be properly pruned, they need to, you know, they and they, you know, if you look after them properly, they will give you, a wonderful product. They're beautiful, these old, gnarled vines that are, some cases, up to a century old. And as you say, they can produce wines with a concentration and complexity of flavors that you simply don't get. I guess the downside why producers do wanna grow them up is as they get old, they get the the the quantity may increase, but the quantity can, be quite minuscule. That's right. Well, yeah, you, you know, sort of hit an nail on the head. Give us just a few examples, Michelle, of some old vine wines, Italian wines that you are particularly excited. Well, you know, in the last few months, since I've been looking, you know, because what I I do is I, spread the word and I look for for new members, within Italy. And of course, there are areas, like on on Aetna, where you have a lot of ancient vines, in, in, in Southern, in the areas of Mamoyada. But, you know, you you can find these wonderful old vines, in in many parts of Italy. And, you know, I love well, I I love the the wines of Aetna. So for me, it was great. One of my favorite producers, Evineri, Salmo forty, who also manages I custodi Deletna. He was one of the first to become a member of the OBC. And, you know, I think he has some century old minds, and they're beautiful. Yes. I've seen those at his Palmetto, a pie up on They are quite stunning. And, of course, there's even a, often these old vines are trained in traditional ways that have been abandoned elsewhere. Absolutely. Here you've got the Alberlo. Yeah. Which is bush train mines. And then another, absolutely amazing, vineyard is the one, of FELdi di San Gregorio, Alyanico. Oh, yes. In European. Yeah. That's right. And, you know, these these vines are, like a like a pergola. I mean, they're they're so tall. I mean, makes I had a photograph taken of me standing by one of these vines. I look like a dwarf. I mean, they are really Beautiful. I mean, they they also are over a hundred years old. And, you know, they produce an absolutely outstanding bottle of, I think it's called Cerpico. In fact, I had a bottle of, if you'd dewine just last night, the Piano de monte Verginet Yeah. Torazi that was just absolutely stunning. Yeah. It's the wine that's being sent to the International Space Station. Wow. You've either got to have the financial possibility sometimes to you know, to to keep these vines, and then of course the creativity also to make a storytelling out of it. And it can be a wonderful storytelling for your product, for your winery. But I do understand that, you know, there are smaller wineries that may, not be or may not have the possibility of being so passionate about a vine, and this gets taken up. But, you know, rarely have I actually encountered that? I mean, because even the small vineyards, there there there's, there's a very, very small producer, Afintrrentino, El Zeremia. I mean, I don't know. He's got about a couple of vectors of vines, and these vines, these old vines, which over a hundred years old, have been passed down through the family. They have a well, in in their family, it's it's a tradition that the oldest son is supposed to take over this vineyard, you know, so so, it's something that, whoever, you know, the the ancestors who who planted the vines wanted them to continue in the history and the story of the family. And I think a lot of, these producers, you know, do realize, you know, that they have something special and, you know, if they can, they should you know, they should sort of honor this. Absolutely. Absolutely. What's coming through in our conversation, Michelle? It's really how you entered the world of wine through, an appreciation that in Italy, it connects so much. It connects it connects history, culture, food, place, where you are, the regions, the localities, and, you know, with these old vines that really connect down through the generations. And all of that comes together in the story of Italian wine and and and the producers that you're excited to meet and and represent. And so I I really like that approach you've taken to what you do and what you love doing. Thank you, Mark. Well, you know, I mean, I like to look at everything three hundred and sixty degrees. So I think, you know, you can't, you can't ignore one side of, you know, which is the more sort of, practical, pragmatic, financial side. Of course. And the more, you know, romantic, creative, passionate side. I think you have to look at both things together. And I think that's what I've tried to do, you know, in my small, short history, of, of, being involved in the Italian wine trade, to help producers in every way I can. So whether it's from the commercial side in helping them find importers to writing about them and expressing my own passion, hopefully, that comes through when I too write in my writings. And and, you know, having the privilege of walking through these vineyards, talking to these farmers and and, wine growers and, you know, sitting at their table and and sharing a glass of wine with them, you know, even with the simplest of foods because, you know, Italy is based on That's the sort of simple food. I mean, those are the best tastes and expressions you can hope to get. Yes. Absolutely. And they and they just, as you say, are so intimately connected with the wines and with the people that make them. Michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure meeting you here, talking today, but I would much rather be sitting up in Sweden and sharing a glass of Italian wine with you or in your home in Tuscany. But I hope that we will meet up again soon. Absolutely, Mark. Thank you very much. We still have to have that pastel pastel together now. Oh, yes. I can't wait. I'm gonna try those secret tips myself when I next make it. Thank you, Michelle. And I hope you have a great day and a great summer. Thank you, Mark. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye bye. We hope you enjoy today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Miller. On Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here, or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.