Ep. 1924 Josephine Wennerho | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to the wine town of Frascati, and the Albany Hills to the southeast of Rome, to meet my guest, Joe Wenerholm. Joe is one of my favorite Italian food writers through her home cooking blog. Which is called Frescati cooking, that's amore. Thanks so much for being my guest today, Joe. We've corresponded now for years, but this is the first time I've heard your voice, so it's a real pleasure to meet you here. How are you? Likewise, Mark. Likewise, how are you? I hear you've you've you've come back from Belfast, so you must be a little bit tired. Oh, no. I've been going around with my new book, so it's been a very good time. It's real pleasure to meet you because your writing has been something I followed for years and we've corresponded over the years as well, but we've never actually met. No, we haven't. This is the closest we've come, but we must get together. Yes, please. You must come down to Rome. You seem to favor the north of Italy. In the north and the south, but not so much the middle. I'm I'm flying into Rome next week, but Really? It's my gastronomically market tour. So we're driving across to Ascoli Picchino. Oh, that's where we're going after this. My my husband's family comes from the Marche, and we're going to Machirata today. So Oh, how long would that take you from roughly? From for Scotche. About three hours. About three hours. Okay. Great. Lovely. Yeah. I don't know Macharatta, but I've heard it's a very, very nice town as well. Well, they say that the Marquier Italy's best kept secret. It seems to me that all of Italy's a best kept secret. I I think it's true about Le Marquier. I think it is, It is still very much undiscovered, certainly for international visitors. Yeah. It is. No, Joe. Let's talk about where you live. Let's talk about Frascati. I haven't been to Frascati in many, many years. But I recall it very fondly, and I'm sure it's changed since I've been there. But describing Fruscotti. It's a town of course that was famous in the Roman era. Did Cicero have a villa in Fruscotti? It was, really, historically somewhere that people of Rome would come to for the cleaner air and for its beautiful position. Tell us about where you live. Oh, that's a, you know, heavy question you've asked me because I could drone on for hours and hours, but but I'll try and make it brief. Fascati didn't really come into existence until about eleven ninety one because prior to that, there was a hilltop town called Tusculum, which actually predates Rome. Long story short, when the last king of Rome tried to suppress what were, I suppose, Republican, political leanings. He had his daughter married off to the tyrant of Tuscalum together with the Latin League and they fought against Rome and lost the battle. This was the famous Battle of Lake Regilo in four nine six BC. And as a side note, there's a white wine here called four nine six made by the Desanc des winery. So the Romans instead of raising it to the ground, decided it was a nice spot and started building their villas there. So as you said, cicero, it wouldn't have been for Scott. It would have been more what is now known as Grotta Ferada. Okay. And there's a famous Abbey there which dates back to one thousand and four, the Abiyos Sanilo, and they reckon that's where, Cicra's, Villa might have stood, but also in what was then the Fuscarty territory, but you you'd have called it Tusculum, not Fuscarty, I don't know if you've heard of Lacola. Oh, of course. Yes. Yes. He was famous for putting on these lavish dinner parties Yes. Which would have cost in terms of today's, you know, like, you know, hundreds of thousand euros dollars, whatever. Right? Yes. And, yeah, and this was this This is where he had his, you know, villa. A villa was somewhere where you retreated to from the heat in the summer, from malaria. Malaria being malaria bad air. They thought it was the bad air that caused the the disease, of course, it was the mozzies, but they didn't know back then. So as I like to say, sorry for I'm droning on a bit here, is that if you think of Rome as New York City, think of the hills around Rome here and Fraskarty now as the Hampton's. Okay. That's I think that's the closest we can come to making it easy for people to understand. And Joe Fruscotti is actually your family home. Your family are from Fruscotti. You have such a perfect English accent, and speak English much better than I do coming from America. Yeah. But tell me a little bit about your background and and how Fruscotti is your family home. Well, Mark, I I believe you and I have something in common in that we're probably what would now be known as third culture kids. Mhmm. Right? So you were born in Mexico, your mother from Hawaii? Yes. That's right. To dad from and via Paris. Well, I was born in Stockholm. My mother is from Fuscarty. So half of me is a total local, local, local, local, yokel. Okay. But I was born in Stockholm. My father was British. Unfortunately, he died when I was a baby, and my mother didn't know what to do, but eventually she decided to come back to Frisgarty and to the flat, the the apartment that I'm living in right now. So I've been in the same flat since January nineteen fifty eight. Oh, my goodness. Wow. That's wonderful. Grandmother. Yeah. Josepina was named after her Josephine. But she was Josepina. She lived with us until she died. And then when I was about five, my mother married a second time to Scottsman. You see, who lived in West Pakistan, which is where I learned to speak English. Okay? From Cartch who we moved to Tehran. And then from Tehran, we moved to what was then East Pakistan, DACA, Bangladesh, and then I was sent to boarding school at the age of thirteen to England. So, so I did all my schooling in England. But Versarty was always home. This is where we came to for vacations, for Christmas holidays, summer holidays, etcetera. And this is where I came to live and stay, you know, at the age of twenty twenty one. I've been here ever since. Okay. And I I'm just wondering if that really interesting upbringing of traveling around India and Iran and Bangladesh and if those flavors and curiosity for food perhaps came from that. It must have been a bit of a shock when you then went to an English boarding school. I shouldn't think French philosopher said that the best English meal is breakfast, something like that. Well, first of all, Mark, to this day, institutional food never very good. Is it? Let's face it. No. That's true. But Italian institutional food is still better than most, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It was breakfast was great. Breakfast was always a cooked meal, but never I mean, what what was good with the with the puddings, you know, with a funny name, spotted dig, dead man's leg, custard Yes. Lemonge Yes. This sort of thing. And tea was a biscuit, and the sapper was a bit of a side affair. Thursday was good. We had fish and chips. I was always hungry at boarding school, but I think it's also the years when, you know, when you're growing up, the hormones kick in, and you're always hungry. And all I know is that when I went home, I'd lose weight even though I probably ate more. My mother's cooking. Cool. And your mother was an inspiration for you as a cook. Absolutely. And my grandmother, yes, both. Absolutely. Well, tell us about that then. When you came back to live in for Scotty, did you just really embrace being in Italy and and enjoying the Italian way of life. And of course, part of that is a large part of that is Italian food and wine. Oh, totally for me. Yes, of course. But as I said just a few minutes ago, the fact don't I don't know how you feel about living in England with your American background. In some respects, I'm I'm foreigner wherever I go. So in Frisgaria, I'm Laestraignina. In England, I was Italian. So, I actually find myself more at ease with people who've traveled a lot. I did work for the food and agriculture, organization of the UN in Rome for many years. And of course, everyone was a foreigner there. And, I ended up hating the work there. I just did not enjoy it. And the only way to get out of it was to do to go and do a university course. And I started off in the evening, and then I resigned from FEO. Something my mother has not forgiven me to this day, by the way, because there's Italian fixation on hole holding a steady job. And so food didn't really become something I was particularly interested in other than of course eating good food until my late twenties, I'd say, not before when I started cooking at home. When did you begin to actually start writing about food communicating to others? And sharing the joy because your writing is is exuberant. Thank you. Thank you. I try to inject a bit of cheer in it because I think, you know, life can be very hard for people all over the world. Never mind what we're going through at the moment in those sensitive areas of the world. So, yeah, a bit of cheer I think is needed. I started in around twenty ten because I had a daughter just finished her three year university course in London and a son who then followed. And she'd call me and say, Mommy, how would you make fifteen up an hour? Mommy, how'd you do this? And I thought, you know, write this, and then it went from there basically. And and I enjoyed it, you know. Okay. That's great. So it came out of a need for your children to be able to continue to enjoy the foods that they'd grown up eating. I suppose so. Yes. And telling a bit of a yawn more about it, you know. Yeah. You say on your blog that your motto, your motto is simple food, any food. So long as it is good, and made with love. Yes. Angry food upsets the workings of digestion. Yes. Apparently, that's an ayurvedic thing. I learned that from a friend of mine, sadly, no longer with us, Clarissa Mitchell, who lived in India and knew all about that. And she told me, you know, angry food is no good, no no good, no good at all. So if I am angry and start cooking, I have a glass of water, walk around a little bit and go back and breathe and then start cooking. Yeah. I think that's true. I'm sure that's true. I'm just gonna read some of your recent posts just so people get a flavor of what you write about. Holding forth on risotto making, and tips. Yeah. Spuds are us too, the battered potato from liguria called Frandura. Yeah. The nettle that got my on my metal. And all these nettles on the balconies, like pesky things. Terrible. So I thought I turned them into something domestic. And tell us about that friend daughter, the ligurian potato dish. Well, I saw this. I was falling asleep in front of the telly one evening, not so long ago. And, I saw an Italian, TV program about food, and it just looked so simple to make and so easy. And it looked delicious. So I tried my hand at it, and it turned out to be really good. It's actually a battered potato? Yeah. I mean, the plate is a slice, and then you add a batter to it with a bit of cheese and banger in the oven. And that's it. I really am about simple food. I mean, I cook a lot. And if you come to dinner here, there'll be more than just two or three dishes. Like, you know, people say I I cook too much, but I noticed they all eat it up on the, you know, the center was they take it home, but my dishes are simple. I can't do fancy and complicated and sophisticated. I am fussy about the ingredients though. Yes. Yes. Now your cooking is always seems to be rooted in place and tradition, but you always put your own twist on things. Yes. Oh, I didn't realize. Thank you. I didn't know that. Yeah. I like the way that you don't you don't say that this is what it is. And, you know, it's set in stone, and your cooking isn't set in stone. You're very much encouraging people to, to make use with what they have and to enjoy cooking rather than slavishly following something. Absolutely, Mark. You've hit the nail on the head. That's the whole point. I wish people would cook more But if they started with simple recipes, they'd enjoy cooking. I think the trouble is maybe people start with sort of complicated things and can't be bothered to repeat the the process. Yes. That's true and need to go out and search for special ingredients and What would you say are the most important elements of Italian home cooking for you? Oh, maybe it's a bit banal, but I'd say regionality, seasonality, and the quality of the ingredients. Yeah. Actually, I would say you've really encapsulate that it varies succinctly. Do you want fresh food? This big thing about kilometer Rosero in Italy, which is, I think, is the translator's farm to table, something like that. Yep. Sure. Sure. And well, I can get a fab Fabulous Recota made less than two kilometers away from here because the the the Sardinian sheep owner, he makes the wonderful, ricotta. Sure. Sure. And that's two kilometers away from me. I can get nice olive oil from the Latio area. Of course, one of them is called, or I'm allowed to give names or not. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. One of them is quattrochokki. He's won all kinds of, metals, gold medals for his quality of olive oil. That's about fourteen minutes drive away from Fracati. And, of course, it's tuscan oils, sicilian oils. I mean, olive oil, there's beautiful olive oils all over it. Bit Karita, you know, of course. But I try and make it local. It's nice to have your own olive oil that you feel is made by a friend and it tastes better and and has a certain savor to it. Absolutely. Fresh food as much as possible, of course. And seasonality you mentioned. I know in summer, for example, I think you go to the coast and write about cooking on the beach virtually. What's about? Oh, my favorite. I've enjoyed reading your your post, like, a breath of sea wind. Oh, thank you. Well, I'm very near the coast too. So Well, Devin, I mean, I'm in Babbean. I'd love to go then. You're talking about Frudamer the other day, and I'm salivating. I love I love that. Yeah. No. We we get wonderful, wonderful local fish and shellfish here. I'm good. I can imagine. Do you like to cook more? Yes. I do. Yeah. My wife and I both cook and our children cook as well, and their partners cook. So we and we all live close together. So we have Oh, lucky you. We have great family feasts quite regularly. And we now have a list. Awesome. Our son moved to Milan eight years ago, and of course, I cried for days on end in that respect. I'm a true Italian mama. Oh my god. Live so far away, you know, Milan. Yeah. Well, I suppose it is, it is far away. It's another world, isn't it? Yes. Yes. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. Well, tell me tell me what you're cooking now. We're talking about seasonality. What are you cooking now? Oh my gosh. I can't remember. I well, I think we had steak and and and salad last night. Sorry. Nothing. Well, of course, vegetables. I like to describe myself as a vegetarian who eats a lot of meat, Meaning, I can skip meat at a meal, but I can't keep my veggies ever. So we have what they call contour me in Italian. So we always have at least two, if not three contour me. In that respect, I'm a bit of a vegetarian. So right now we're coming to the end of the artichoke season. There's fresh peas, fresh broad beans, fava beans, all kinds of salad. There's some brocco or manesco, spuds. People look down on potatoes. Why do they do that? They're so nice. Actually, I I think you're right so many times. We visit Italy. We walk through markets. We see these wonderful arrays of vegetables, but You know, it's hard for us. And now, you know, if you're staying in an Airbnb, perhaps you can can cook, but we don't have a chance to enjoy them. And often you don't get them in restaurants. You need to be in homes to to to enjoy them. No. I've noticed. You know why? Because people are lazy in restaurants, and also must say the prices are shot up in a ridiculous manner because of COVID, I suppose. And and other things going on in the world. But I think restaurants, they don't like to make, you know, vegetables because it's a lot of work. Yeah. Well, I'd like to, you to explain to me what you do with all those beautiful artichokes. I say, I know Rome is famous for its artichokes season and there are different varieties of artichokes. So tell me your favorite ways, preparing artichokes. One of them is Alarumaana, of course, which is stewed. With some garlic and mint, and olive oil, of course. The other one is not easy to make at home. I don't make it off, and I'll be honest with you, which is a la julia, which is fried. So that the artichoke is fried twice first at a low temperature to get it cooking. And then just before serving at a very high temperature in the oil to crispen it up, and that's delicious. To crisp it up, I've eaten that. It's really wonderful. Yeah. It's lovely, absolutely gorgeous. And then I like it raw with, shavings of, parmesan cheese, parmigiana, and olive oil, a little bit of lemon juice. It's nice. They have to be nice and tender, though. I don't think for that. And yes. And cut very they have to be sliced very thinly with the mandolin, maybe. I just use a knife for young. Uh-huh. I fry them as well in batter and without. I mean, deep fry. I I like fried foods. And I've I've looked into this, and I'm not saying people should have fried foods every day. But once a week, once every ten days, yes. Apparently, it's very good for the health of liver because it stimulates, is it the gallbladder, something like that? And, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it sort of thing. So have fried foods at least every ten days. Well, that's a good advice. I think that's very good advice. Now can you talk us through the classic Roman pasta dishes that every visitor to Rome or the colonial Bani should sample? I've been talking about the big three that, Is it three? Four. Four. Four. For a cachetpepe, which is just pickering the cheese and water and the pasta, of course. Then if you add gonzale to it, pork chow, that becomes, lager. And pepper. La Grisha. Then if you add tomato to that, it becomes a Madrigiana. Okay? That's that's the the the sort of development of that. And then you have the carbonara, which is made with eggs, as well as the the grand charlie. And carbonara has been causing all kinds of heated debate. Should we call it that? Because now there's something called carbo crema, meaning that until about twenty years ago, car, you know, carbonara was made any old way, but now you have to make it creamy. Same thing goes for caccha paper. In my grandmother, we're just, you know, grate the the the part of the picarino and add the pasta with a paper, Bob's your uncle. Right? Now you have to make the cremina and this and that. So what adding the pasta water to the grated cheese and then blending it in? Yeah. Yeah. Which can curdle. So, actually, I do give cooking classes. I hate giving cooking classes with ketchup papers involved because it can curdle. Right. Yeah. I'm getting better at it, but, you know, I shouldn't be confessing this, but then I like to be honest. What can I say? Let's talk about your cooking classes because I wanted to mention those. Thank you. It's a really good opportunity for visitors to really experience real home cooking. Exactly. Tell us what about what you do. Well, if we have time, I like well, I I I buy some of the food the day before because shopping takes hours or can take hours. So I think this through, write everything down by all the ingredients that we don't have to buy on the actual day, the day before, and actually prepare some things. I mean, like, in a peeling garlic or because this takes time. Then on the day, I like to go with with the guests as I like to call them, two of the markets, the shops. So they can see what we're buying and how fresh it is, and then we come home when we get cooking. First on the thing is to get your hands washed and then a glass of wine. If you like a glass of wine. And then we cook together, love together, and and it goes on forever. Well, that sounds like a very enjoyable way to spend a day. How how do how do they find you? How do they come across you? Oh, gosh. That that's, yeah, next question. I'm not very good at marketing. I it's hearsay, friend of a friend, through the the blog I'm hoping. And I also have worked with other friends in Rome. An American friend who no longer lives there, Diane Epstein. She's moved to to California. Another friend who runs a travel business called Your own Italy. And I I have some friends who own a Casale, not far from here. They rented out to to people visiting and we I cater for them or give cook cooking classes. So anybody who's listening to this, and we do have listeners from all around the world. If they find your blog, Frascati cooking, that's amore. Oh, thank you. They would be able to find you. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I like to I like to know what they can't eat because, you know, some people, for whatever reason, Carly pork, lots of vegans, or lactose intolerance, you know, it's, so you have to be wary of what what I can offer them. Sure. There's there's usually places. Yes. I'm sure. Now, Friscati, the name Fruscotti, of course, is known all around the world for the wine that comes from your area. That's right. How important is wine in life in Fraskatti. And tell tell me a little bit about your favorite wines. I actually, Joe, I'm just going to go back to my memory of Fraskatti more than forty years ago. And I can recall when there were used to be these very dark dens where you could go in, and the wine was poured either out of demijohns or maybe directly from the barrel, quite golden in color, fermented on the skins, and you just have a carafe of that with porchetta that you buy from a roadside stand and eat with your hands. Things have changed considerably since then, but I would hope that there's something of that remaining. Because it was such a genuine wine and food experience. Very sadly. No. Very sadly. No. Actually, there's only one left. His name is Rimidio. And guess what, just over a week ago, Danny Tuchi was visiting. It was filming there. Is that right? Yeah. Okay? In Fraskia. These were known as Fracchete, and these became very popular with the Romans who'd come here because there's a there's a train from Fracati to Roman. It only takes half an hour. It was actually the second train to be, built in Italy. The first one is in Naples in eighteen fifty six, but it didn't really get going until eighteen eighty six, which meant a lot of romans would come here for the day, you know, day trippers. Sure. And as you either bring their own food or buy some porchetta and go to these taverns, these and buy the local plonk. Well, no. They've all died out now, but times have changed. It's all in the techers now. It's all wine in the stem glasses, which which is a good thing. Let's face. I don't think one was particularly good, but the atmosphere would have been wonderful, and that's what's lost. Yes. It was wonderful. And, actually, I I remember fondly the wine. You know, it was before technology and, you know, there was fermentation on the skins and It's a style of wine that's actually coming back now with orange wines. Yeah. I read somewhere that you you favored Gravner. That was one of the wines you like. Oh, I'm a vague fan of Gravner's wines. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I actually met him once because we have a friend here called Paolo Gerardi. I don't know how he started this, but he started sort of let's call it a wine club. That's what you wanna call it. He has some kind of car man that manages to attract wine producers to come to Fosgarity and have dinner with us. I don't know. Wow. And Gradner was one such guest. Oh my goodness. He was a very pleasant man, and he'd just gone through some hardship. I believe he lost a son. Oh my goodness. His most most attentive and very nice, and I would we were able to taste his wonderful wines. Yeah. But back to Friscarty, what's happened is, it used to be as well, it became it lost its prestige, didn't it in the seventies. It became super market wine, I suppose. And Romans, and only now starting to understand that for Scarty wine has picked up, it's got good. And otherwise, they won't serve it. They think, oh, for Scarty, you know, bad wine. And that's sad because the wine you spoke of just now which were served in the taverns. You see, legally, theoretically, you weren't allowed to call it a Fescarty wine because Fescoti is a DOC. Of course. The bottled wine. Of course. Oh, that didn't do Fescarty wine any favors. The fact that they were serving house wine, you know, quaffable, cheerful wine, call it jug wine. Let's call it that. Whereas nice Frisgadi wines actually very nice. And it's going up in the rankings. I'm glad to say. Oh, there's some wonderful Frisgadi wines being produced now. I have, one in my book, that is very, very good. So, no, I think frescotte, you're absolutely right. It in the seventies, There were when wine was industrialized, Frascati Verdicchio, in the amphora bottle, chianti, in the straw covered fiasco. That's right. Yeah. Swave. These were the wines that introduced the world to Italian wines and places all around the world. And, you know, they they brought joy and happiness, even if the wine was was only mediocre, but these same places now are making really, really great wines again in Fruscotti included. Yeah. Yeah. Casale Marquezi is one of them. I like they're actually, we're actually friends with them. Desanctis, their wine is organic. I've seen their desanctis wines in in Roman restaurants good. A relative newcomer to the block is one, and I like his Fascati style, but he makes a really good red wine, cheese. Really good. Very nice. Yes. That should be coming more and more proper with Chezzanese. Chezzanese. And one of I think it's one of the great grapes of, certainly of Latio, but I think of Italy. It's undervalued and unknown. Yeah. It's the people are starting to talk about it now. But if ever you get come around here, I'll I'll take you to Gabriley Manuel for the Oh, that would be lovely. But that cheese on it. It's very good. And again, it's about four kilometers away from where I live. Oh my goodness. Oh, yeah. I'm surrounded by vineyard. Yes. Yes. They're small, mind you. They're small. They're not large. Not very large, you know, they're not big holdings. No. Well, a final question, Joe, for visitors to Rome and to the Coli albani who love food and wine. What's your advice for that to them for How to get the most out of their visit? Well, if they can, I'd say spend a couple of nights here. If you can't rent a car, and if you can't rent a car, get on the train from Rome to Frisco just walk around. I mean, it this is there's a lot of people watching. We have fantastic ice cream here in Fiscuity, some very good pizzas, some nice porchetta. This is not a riccha where where porchetta's made, but we have nice porchetta here too. And Yeah. There's lots of places to eat and drink. Lots of people ambling around. Very nice. There's always a nice atmosphere in Frisgati. I'll give you that. Always. Yeah. And it's easy to get to. Most important. Very easy. Yep. It it which which train station is that from? There, meaning. And for Scott is the last stop, and it takes thirty minutes. Wow. That that's it. That's it. Yeah. Do you go into Rome often then? I go very often sometimes and not at all for months on end, well, not months on end. Right. It depends. Yeah. We I mean, I have friends in Rome. So, you know, I go down to Rome to see friends or go to museums or or whatever. Sure. We think of ourselves as Romans. I mean, the Romans wouldn't think of that of us that way. We're sort of the red next to them, you know. We're the Burini. We're the they call, you know, with a burene, they think we're oh, we are provincial. And it's I think it's nice to have it. It's nice to have somewhere too. I mean, for centuries, people would go to for Scottine, to the Colia albani, the Albany Hills to, to escape rooms. That's right. And the air is still better here, even though it's been built up a lot over the years. I mean Yes. I'm sure. If you come here, you won't recognize it. The traffic is pretty bad here, would you believe? But still the air is big. Actually, I do remember even a very long time ago when I was last in Frisgati. It was hectic. It was crazy and, you know There's a bull swifter, which is nice, you know. Yeah. I like that buzz. I like that busyness. And that noise and then And, I I I worked with a winery until called a few years ago. I did a little tour of Visatti before taking to the winery, and this would be in the morning. And I'd say, you know, take a look at the people walking in the past and they were all. I called this geriatric time of day. It was all the older people. Right? He's a husband's, you know, talking about football or complaining about the government. There's always something to complain about. And in the evenings, of course, then you get the younger people going for their period TV. So there's a but there's always people wandering around. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. That is nice. Well, Joe, you've made me want to wander around, and I hope, I can help you in for Scotty sometime. Please come. Please, please, please. We'd be glad to have you as our guest. I would love to. Would love to. But I'm very glad to have made proper contact with you in this way and to learn more about what you do in your life and for Scotty, which I think our listeners will enjoy reading about in Frascati cooking, Nacamore. So thank you so much for being my guest this morning. It's been a real pleasure. For me too, Mark. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. And I hope all the best. I hope we meet too and all the best. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.