Ep. 763 Matteo Bisol | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we all learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to a very special place, the island of Matzorbo in the middle of the Venetian lagoon to meet Matteo Bizol. CEO of Vanessa to tell us about a very special project, a very special wine, and a very special place. Thanks for being my guest today. How are you? I'm I'm doing well. It's a wonderful day. Here in, in Matzorba. So I'm really happy to be with you. Great. Well, I'm really happy to imagine myself on the island of Matzorba with you. But for our listeners, can you can you give us a sense of where you are the sense of this special island in the Venetian lagoon. So the Venetian lagoona, it's a it's a quite big lagoona. You know, it's composed mostly obviously by by water, and there's, hundreds of of, of little islands. In Marzabo, it's in the northern part of Elaguna, and it's close to Burano Island, which is famous for the colorful houses. So there's a bridge connecting Burzorno in Marzabo, and it's close, as well to Torcello, which is the island where Venice actually was started one thousand five hundred years ago. Wow. So Mazzorbo itself has a has a lengthy history, although it's not an island most people have heard of. It too was was important at the beginning of, the Venetian civilization in the lagoon. Wasn't it? Yes. Yes. It was. It was. There used to be around twenty churches in, in Missouri just to understand how big that island was. And, actually, the name come from, measure, the major city. So there was, actually, thousands of of people, living in, in that area. That was the first place where where Venice was, was started, Mazargo Tercello, Amiana, Houston Circa. And then around the year one thousand, people moved from that part of Venice, to Venice, which is actually today thirty minutes, touted by water taxi, you know, but at, that time, that was a little bit longer because, there was no engine in the, in the boat. So used to take, it was a quite a travel to reach, Venice from, from absorbing. Sure. And it's still an adventure. I know, it's a very special place to come to. I've come by, both by the Vaporett or the the slow boat, but as well, the nicest way is to come on one of those sleek and beautiful and very fast, Venetian taxis. Yeah. It's it's quite convenient to reach, to to reach Mazarbo from, from Venice, and it's a very beautiful journey and travel to to be on a boat on the on the lagoon. That's, that's definitely an experience, that I recommend to anybody that, that traveled to Venice. Definitely. Now what's interesting, you know, you've mentioned all of the all of these islands, these small islands, large islands, around the Venetian lagoon. We tend to think of Venice. We think of we think of the main island of Venice, but, these islands once had agricultural products growing on them and still do and Viticulture used to be prevalent. Perhaps, there were vineyards even in Venice itself, but Viticulture died out. What happened? So, the history of Viticulture in the Laguna of Venice goes back to two thousand five hundred years ago. So even before Venice was started, at the Roman time, the Romans used to to have vines, in the in the Laguna of Venice, So that's a very big history, and we really need to understand that the the islands of the Laguna Venice has a completely different history compared to Venice itself. Venice is a city which is really based on the trades and merchants. So everything is around that, the lagoon of Venice is, it's a completely different culture. It's a culture based on nature. Okay. So people always, leave the by nature. Thanks to nature. So, obviously, water was very important. The fishermen, village of Buranoli, which is nearby Mazzaro, as I as I I told before, but also this the the land that and the soil was very important because, and Tortello, and then also, Santerazmo, living in other islands in the in the same era. Always, people always leave by nature because they used to be poor people, you know, and and so, first of all, they were they were growing their gardens that they were growing the land that was, that was available. And if we look also to the names of the island of Venice. There's an island in the area, which is called the le vignale, you know, vignetteau vignale, and, vignette obviously means vineyard in, in Italian. Actually, the island, there's an island which is now called San Francisco del Deserto because, San Francisco came there, but before it used to be called the island of the two Vigniors. And then other and other names that remind us this history of agriculture and especially Viti culture in the, in the lagoon of Venice. So we really need to understand that making wine in Venice, making agriculture in Venice is not something strange, but is actually part of a tradition of the city. So it's very important to preserve this tradition because making Viticulture and wine is Venice. In Venice is completely different than making it in any other place in the world. So also the systems that has been invented by definitions to raise the wine in a such an environment where you have a high tide and all these, challenges, these are system that only exist in Venice. And, you know, this is really part of a history. And the and the patrimonial of of the city. So it's very important to maintain this history alive. Well, that is really, really fascinating to put it in that historical context and to think of of what, what the challenges are and making wine from grapes from vineyards that, that as you say, have to be able to survive aqua alta, the flooding, normally, a saline, brackish water flooding onto a vineyard, would, cause great damage. How come that doesn't happen with your vineyard on Mount's order, but because I know it actually can flood at times. Can't it? Yes. Actually, the vineyard has been flooded in in the big two thousand nineteen. Aqualta, and we we actually were very worried about the consequences of this, of this Aqualta because we know that it's very dangerous phenomena. And, actually, the Aqualta was in November and up to April, we didn't know if the, if the vineyard was surviving or not, you know, because that's the winter time where the the divine are actually sleeping. So the the point is that, in Venice, exist a grape variety, which is called Dorona de Vanessa, which is a local grape variety. So this local grape variety adapt itself to survive in this environment. You know, buying a it's an amazing plant. That, in Italy, we have more than one thousand different gray variety. And the reason is that, each gray variety is adapted self to a special environment, to special condition of the soil, of the weather, of, of everything that find in place where it's living. So Dorona de Vanessa adapted itself to survive in the lagoon of Venice. And it's a great variety that, was almost extinct because, when we started in two thousand and two, we only found eighty vines of Dorona divanencia in the Laguna of Venice because people after, you know, the sixties, and, actually, there was a very big flood in that, in nineteen sixty six, that created damage, even to Dorona. But, actually, after they lost most of the vines after raised a lot of opportunities, in tourism, in the, in Murano class factories, living being a farmer in Venice was very good. It was also expensive to, to grow things, in Venice and and with the motorboats was easier to transport things from out of Venice to to to in. So in that time, there is the sixties, the seventies, and the eighties, we lost the, the traditional Viticulture and agriculture in the, in the island of Venice. We were lucky enough to find some of the last farmers of Venice, especially Gastonavio, that was still growing some vines of Dorona. And then, actually, we were finding vines of Dorona almost everywhere. Maybe, you know, one vine in the center of Burano Island, a few vines in Tercello, in front of a basilica, some vines in the Vignale, even in the states where we're growing actually today in in Azarbo, and our neighbors also has Corona. So we collected the eight vines, and, we, reproduced it by, Salizione Masale, and, And so we were able to replant the vineyard in, in Matzaro. Wow. That is a fascinating story of how this particular grape unique to the lagoon, was preserved. It would have been lost if the Vanessa project hadn't found a way to keep it alive. And the extraordinary thing from what I've tasted Vanessa, is that it's a grape being able to survive is one thing, but it's a grape that's able to produce an extraordinary wine that's a fascinating part of it. And, tell us a little bit about about the wine itself because it's unusual. Yeah. It's a white wine. It's a white grape variety. Somehow, if we, you know, it's vineyard. It's it's grape variety is related to every to other grape varieties, So if we need to place a Dorona in that scene, we would place it in the families of Turbiano Garganaga. So these are quite, neutral grape varieties that reflects very well the terroir. So it's, you know, Trebiano and Gerganaga are wines, are varieties that can produce wines that are completely not interested in terms of quality, but can also produce some of the greatest white wines in Italy. Okay. So it's really, depend on where divine is planted and how divine is growing. We will have a incredibly different, results. Okay. If we think about at the Trebiano of a Valentini or some of a of a soave. This I I think are really some of the best Italian wines, but, actually Trebiano grape varieties are also used to to mass product for mass production wines. So it's very important that, the Dorona divanazia is in his own environment, the lagoon of Venice, because I always believe that, it's it's not a matter of having a Pasha grape varieties, not that pinot noir makes, a great wine everywhere in the world. Pinot noir makes a great wine for sure in burgundy, you know, and Riesling found itself perfectly in Vaca and in Moselle, and and Nebula grows perfectly in Pittmont, but we don't have examples of great may be all over somewhere else in the world. So it's not only a matter of the great variety, but it's always about how the great variety found the perfect symbiosis with terroir. And Dorona divanesum, found a ver a perfect symbiosis with the Laguna Vanice. So that's very important because it's allowed to produce a very balanced wine, a very elegant wine, a wine with a, obviously, a great personality because, the teruar, it's very it's quite unique at the great variety. It's it's different. So we're talking about a white wine, which is produced with the maceration on the skin, and also here there's an there's an historical motivation behind that. The reason is quite simple. In Venice, there was no possibility to build the underground cellar, okay, because actually, you know, with the high tide, with the risk of the high tide, if you if you build the underground cellar, this can this would be flooded with, with the high tide. Okay? And underground cellar it was very important in the past to produce a quality wine because, it allowed to keep the temperature low during the summer. So, the the venetian had to go around this problem and to find a solution, you know, Venetian, people are are incredible. They found solution to many problems, to to in order to be able to to build the city in, in Elaguna. And it's the same thing with the history of this wine. You know, they found incredible system to to grow a vineyard, and they they found systems, obviously, also to make the wine. So maceration was the solution because with maceration, you were able to extract the dependents and the antioxidants that are in the skin. These allow the wine to survive and last longer, even if, if it's not in a in a perfect condition during the summer, even if the if the seller gets a little bit warmer than a than a normal seller. So the maceration was really the tradition of making wine in Venice, and we capture this tradition, obviously, also for for our wines. So we make a maceration that lasts around thirty days, one month for the Vanessa, and, around one week for the Venusa, which is the second wine of, of Vanessa. And then, we we have it, we we keep the wine in concrete. Thanks, Vaca, for a few years, and we release the wine only around the four to five years after they they harvest because these wines really need that time to express themselves, and these are wines that can age really, really well. If we have to drink the best, Vanessa wines today, we would need that to drink a two thousand ten, twenty eleven synthesis. Okay. Now it's a it's a it's a wonderful wine, and I've had the opportunity to taste it at the Nisa. So I I can really understand what you're saying. It's a white wine made almost like a red wine in that sense with this long maceration. In a sense, it's also a, become a symbol of the Venetian lagoon and of the heritage of the lagoon. And this is reflected in its beautiful packaging in the bottle and this unique label that the bottle has. Tell us a little bit about this and why you wanted to present the wine in this way. The reason that, bring us to produce a wine like the Nissan was not just to produce wine, but was to, restart and keep alive a tradition of the lagoon on Venice. And as there is the tradition in the lagoon on Venice of producing wine, there are other amazing tradition of handcrafts Some of that that are related to glass. We all know that Murano Island is very famous for for glass. So we felt that in this project, there needed to be a place for also the hand crafters of Murano. And, and so we we don't produce the glass in, in Murano because that's that's artistic glass. And also, you know, otherwise, the the cost and the price of the bottle would be amazing only for, for the reason of the glass, but we wanted somehow to to have it on board. So we found that actually Dorona means the golden grape. This is, the then the Italian translation of, of the name. And, in, Vennis, there is a family that is called the Batilaro, the gold beaters. That is the last family of a tradition, which is almost extinct, which is, yeah, the gold beaters. They make the gold leaf, by with a hammer, and they have this amazing tradition that goes back to to centuries and centuries. And they are now the last, families that is doing that. And we are actually the last producer of the gold grapes. So we we wanted to somehow try to keep both the tradition alive to help out also this, this tradition to be more well known, and, in in Murano Island, the gold leaf is baked into the glass. So there's a family in Murano that is specialized in, applying the gold leaf to a to the bottle, to the glass. So they actually cook the the gold leaf inside the the the bottle, and they engraft, they write Venissa and the number of a bottle out of a total number of bottle produced, in the glass. It's such a beautiful bottle, and it's a really fitting bottle for this special wine. Now, Matteo, Vanessa, is a wine project, but it's more than that. It's also a hospitality project of bringing people to Marzorbo with the hotel, a wonderful restaurant in an Osteria. Tell us a little bit about the hospitality side of Vinesa. Yes. We so Vanessa, it's a it's a claw. It's a two actor claw in the island of Mazorbo. It's completely surrounded by this medieval wall, and there's, a tower from the thirteen hundreds that is, in front of the vineyard. So it's a very beautiful place. And, in the past, this place used to be a winery up to the sixties, and there was a big, building that was, the house of the of the winemaker and the family, you know, of the farmers. So we decided to renovate the the buildings and to create a hospitality to, to be able to taste the wine with our guests, in front of the vineyard because this is really how you can really understand the uniqueness and the magic of this, and the history that is behind this, this wine. So we created a restaurant, which, got the mission start in two thousand twelve. And got also the green Michelin star last this year just few months ago, for sustainability. We grow our own vegetables. So we we don't use any plastic also in the cuisine. We don't use a Suveda technique, and, then we also created the in Osteria Contemporana, which is a kind of a bistro and more easy format for for the people that want to pass by and just hit a, and just has a nice dish and a beautiful place and drinking our wines. And we also created the rooms. So it's we really suggest to to spend the night, at least, in the lagoon of Venice, actually spending few days, we would allow to really to discover the lagoon, but at least one night in the lagoon of Venice really make make you understand what is, the essence of this island. Because, if you come during the day, you know, there's a lot of, there's tourists that that come to Burano. You have a different perception of the island. But if you sleep and you have a walk in the evening and in the morning, and you meet the local and you see, you know, the real life of the island. I think that's a great experience, and you can really understand the, the essence of this, of this island. So we really wanted to to give the possibility to to the people to discover the native Van is to discover this part of Elaguna and to experience our wine in the place where the wine is produced. Yeah. It is a it is a really, really special complex that you've developed, both from the vineyard point of view, but also as a hospitality, and a unique island Venetian hospitality. But I'm interested to, to talk more about the food. I know, for example, you'll have fishermen bring fish direct to the restaurant, the orto, as you said, is producing vegetables. All of these products coming from the lagoon have their own special flavor and really allow visitors to taste the lagoon in a way that can't be done anywhere else. What are some of the special dishes or special ingredients that are, you know, that are really part of the experience? Yes. It's it's quite difficult because our our menu change a lot based on, on the season. But, just to make an example, that's the La Guolo, which comes with all the herbs that grows spontaneously in, in the Laguna Venice. So we we really want also to emphasize not only the fish, but also the the herbs and, and the vegetables that grows in Venice. Because, as I told, the agriculture was very important in the history of these islands and the vegetables that grows in Venice has a very special and distinctive taste, and also the the herbs that grows in Venice has a very special and distinctive. From from that saline soil? Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So that's a that that this really valorize this type of flavors or another example that will represent our cuisine. It's, it is pagedo. With a garum, garum, it's a Roman preparation, which is based on, actually, the leftovers of the fish. This, some sounds a little bit strange, but it's a it's a great, great taste and a great way to really, to use everything, every part of a of the ingredients. And, and, actually, the taste has become really, really nice. And, this aroma, it's, comes also with, the Dorona grapes, Juisse, which is obtained, not by the, the the grapes that we use for the wine, but, by the grapes that we don't use. So this comes by the green harvest grapes. So we make the green harvest, but, we don't want to throw away anything. We conserve it and, at the restaurant. They use this, for this dish, and they also make an ice cream with, Dorona, Juis, green Dorona, Juis, and powder of licorice, and, and then the spaghetti to complete the dish, that it comes, some some herbs from the Tanuta, and, a gold leaf, which is placed on it, to tell and to remember that, actually, what, most of the time, we throw away is actually, gold, you know. You can turn, you can turn, something that, you you would throw away in, in something which is, has, which has an amend an amazing value. That's really interesting. The garam, of course, was a seasoning of the ancient world, and the Roman economy was fortunes were made on the trade of Gatoms. So to have that taste, that fish sauce taste, from the lagoon is absolutely fascinating. It's a such a, a special story and and a special wine. And I hope our listeners will, when they come to Venice, we'll take a boat out to Mazzorbo and discover it for themselves. I'm looking forward to returning again myself Mateo. I love visiting you, and I hope to be back soon. But in the meantime, I just want to thank you for being our guest today. It's been a real pleasure to, to talk about Vanessa with you. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It was a pleasure for me to share this history. Good. Thank you, Mateo. And I hope to see you soon. Oh, my best. Oh, my best. We hope you enjoy today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time. Hi, everybody. Italian wine podcast celebrates its fourth anniversary this year, and we all love the great content they put out every day. Chinching with Italian wine people has become a big part of our day, and the team in Verona needs to feel our love. 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