Ep. 472 wine2wine Session Recordings | Provence and Rosé

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Italian wine podcast as wine to wine twenty twenty media partner is proud to present a series of sessions chosen to highlight key themes and ideas and recorded during the two day event held on November twenty third and twenty fourth twenty twenty. Wine to Wine twenty twenty represented the first ever fully digital edition of the business to business forum. Visit wine to wine dot net and make sure to attend future editions of wine to wine business forum. Hello, everybody. Thank you to wine to wine for this, very interesting event. Myself, I am also a producer of Rosay wine, so I'm very much looking forward to hear what Elizabeth is going to to say. We have that, half an hour, and, we will also answer to, your, question. Elizabeth, is very much is a be a very important expert of wines, southern France wines, and Mediterranean wines. And of course, she is very, she likes very much Jose wine. And, she is a very, important expert on Rosette Wine. So, Elizabeth, I gave you the floor. Thank you. Alright. So, this is going to be a really fast canter through what made Rose successful. What can we learn from provence? A rosé perspective, and really the aim of today's talk is what we can learn from provence in terms of marketing, and how they have managed to become a market leader. So it's not always been the case of provence, making Rosay in the style that we know now. These are old marketing postcards that you can see with these wonderful, curvy traditional bottles, nice dark color, the dark color largely because most rose in provence was made as a byproduct of red wine until the nineteen eighties. There was also Rosier made, on its own, but a large amount was made as a direct byproduct of red wine. Senier is not necessarily bad. Matilde makes wonderful Sanier Rosier. So but this is very much the style, dark, traditional rustic style of rose. So what made it change? Early nineteen nineties. I don't know the exact dates for these forms of publicity. This is from my own collection, but you can see the poster, still the curvy bottles, still dark wine, and the three colors on this pin, the publicity pin they gave, red rose and white. So even until the early nineteen nineties, very much this traditional style of promotion. And this is what made Rose change enormously. From the late nineteen eighties, and really escalating in the nineteen nineties, direct press, whole bunch direct press, giving paler fresher Rosay, very important when you have majority, Grenash Rosay, which is prone to oxidation, and temperature control. It's very easy now to think that this is how all Rosay has always been made forever and ever. But from the late nineteen eighties, there was an absolute revolution in how Rosay was made creating this fresh style. We now think this is normal. But I do remember in the early nineties a sort of un uncertainty as to whether this was how Rose should be fresh and pale and modern. It really was incredibly revolutionary. So technical, changes in the cellar in provence ahead of everybody else made them ahead of the game. And an understanding, I think, what is quite important, to think back to the nineteen nineties where traditional Rosay was being made and suddenly, Rosays that lasted slightly longer remained fresh for slightly longer had much more vibrant fruit, appealed to the market. But producers, apart from direct press, apart from temperature control, were still learning how do you make good rosé? And the research center they've created an association in nineteen ninety five amongst producers to start learning what to do, which became the research center in nineteen ninety nine. So really only twenty years of research has been going into Rosay. And they started looking at which grape variety makes good rose. Matilda and I were just talking before we started saying everybody now thinks you can make a rose. You just direct press, you can make a rose, but not all grapes do make good rosé. There are some rosés which really struggle, to to make good quality rosé. Color, as I say, grenache oxidizes quite easily. So there was a lot of very coppery color and an understanding as to how you could counter that, how you could make an attractive paler color, how you could harvest earlier, if you're making your roses a byproduct of red wine, harvesting was often much later, same time as red wine, and this understanding of if you can harvest earlier, you have freshness, you have acidity, this was all quite innovative in the nineteen nineties. There was quite a lot of buzz going on discovering terroir grapes, harvesting, what to do in the cellar. And this was the start of really making provence Rosier Good and it was very much a focus in red, in in provence for the Rosay. And what was interesting is in two thousand, if you start looking through old, wine journal, wine articles, they start saying, provence Rose is good quality for price. The quality suddenly starts moving into the equation. And that's quite important until then, Rose was still slightly dodgy, on quality. And what happened next? So we've got this surge in quality and innovation in exciting winemaking coming through. And there are all the appalachians in provence. So you have Bandal, Casisse, Bellet, Coto Dex, which at this time was VDQS. Cote de provence, potentially all big rivals. And they decided the three biggest appellations, Coto Vawa, VDQS, Coto provence, and Coto decks decided to come together as one united marketing force. Still to keep their identity as different appylations, but to market themselves as the wines of provence. And I think as many appylations, smaller appylations realized You can work on your own, but it is extremely expensive. Van der provence then decided this united umbrella, they could do the same marketing campaign, they could share stands at exhibition centers, They could contact journalists altogether. There was this amazing, concept of uniting. Why not all the other appalachians? Bandole has been very keen to keep their their taste their local taste of Bandol Rosay, which they felt maybe wouldn't work well with the other appylations. Belay again is completely different, and Lebaud doesn't, as only recently had, a bigger amount of Jose being made. So since two thousand and two, there's been this marketing umbrella. And this is really part of what I want to talk about today is this United marketing front for Rosay of provence. So they've united and their first marketing campaign. I have to say trying to find out historic marketing is fascinating. And that it doesn't exist. It really it almost as though the there is no archives on the internet of how to find historic marketing for the wine. So it's quite a sort of struggle to follow the evolution. So there may be gaps, I hope there aren't, but, this is one of the first poster campaign from the United Appolations of provence the art of Rose. I'm not really too sure what is in this collage. I think there's some sushi, a glass of rose, seashells, red fruit, and I'm not sure what all the other elements are. But it what it's trying to say is it's a creative wine. It's not just a standard rustic product. They were promoting creativity in their winemaking. And by the end of this campaign, starting to get references in the press to the confidence and the energy being shown by provence Rosay producers. The other significant thing at this point, two thousand and three was the big heat wave year, which saw, Rosay sales escalating enormously, cold rose in a heat hot summer. But that wasn't part of the marketing campaign. That was a lucky chance that in two thousand and three, just as they started this united marketing front, there was this hot summer. So they're now being regarded as quality for money. Something interesting is coming out of here, and it's the beginning of the boom. So at this point, it's still, small quantities slowly growing quality, but where's it going? Don't forget at this point, we still didn't know the boom that was going to develop. So the following campaign was actually far more thought out. We've had the artistic creativity. And they decided that let's move on from pure technical expertise, from being creative what will make Rose be to be serious in the market? And one of the ideas is that if you can prove that Rose is Not just a character. If you can prove that Rosay is not just a new thing, that maybe is just a flash in the pan, a marketing novelty. If you can say that Roseay is historic, It gives it credibility, it as the same as red and white wine. And so they launched this campaign, Rosay was born in provence. There were roadside panels saying two thousand years of provence. So it's now confirmation. It's a traditional wine. It's historic And underneath, you can see the description of Rosier from provence saying showing that they now have the expertise as well to make this pale Rosier, if you look at the picture, and this photograph and sorry. The next oops, no. My mouse is going too excited. Are showing a sense of place Lavender fields. Even though wine is not made from lavender, lavender fields became synonymous with Rosays of provence. And I know when we were discussing the book cover for my book on Rose, One of the suggestions from the publishers was let's put a field of lavender on, which I did not agree with. But we've got the seaside lavender, a bullpitch, always that cool glass of pale rosy. And olives, again, the sea, tepanade figs. So re reaffirming the tradition, the sense of place, the pale color of Rosay. And now we're getting quotes saying, you know what? Provont seems to be the specialist for Rosay. So what was happening in this, marketing campaign was the big news as far as provence was concerned was, Chateau Desclanche launched in two thousand and six, Garrus, which was An oak rosé is an oak rosé at eighty euros a bottle. Ripples of horror throughout, everywhere, eighty euros for a rosé. Most rosé didn't go above. Still doesn't really go above much twenty euros a bottle. So eighty euros a bottle. This was an extreme expression of confidence that the market would want Rose. Oaked Rose was also very new. And a year later, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, started becoming involved with Miraval. So on top of this marketing campaign, people were recognizing this and investing and showing confidence in Rosay. So the pale color, pale color became associated with quality, inevitable because, Rosay in provence was increasing in quality. And they were making the Jose quite pale, and the market was liking it. So Jean Masson, who's the director, current director, as part of his research paper into wine, created the Nuanceier with these different shades of color, and a number of Rosay competitions, including the Monty Elder Rosay, which was set up at this time, gives you a chart and you tick the numbers of the color. So that you can identify the color of the Rosay, and the research center monitors this to see what the trends are with color, the trends in tone. And person around, I'm almost going to personally. Anyway, so that the increase in the amount of pale rose being made is now over fifty percent. From being a quarter of production, it's now over fifty percent and growing. And this is something we will come on to later. But at the moment, these are the colors associated with provence Rose. And if you can see from the middle picture, whereas I grew up with, onion skin or, pale pink. They wanted to increase the the naming of the rose color to link with the fruit. So they're called mandarin mango melon peach pomelo and red current to double increase the, double increase that emphasize the fruitiness of the wine and the color. So the next campaign, twenty ten to twenty thirteen, we've had traditions, sense of place, quality. And now the emphasis in this campaign was very much the taste and the flavor. Of what the Rosay was. Two thousand and seven was when, the big burst of Rosay producing around the world suddenly happened. Everyone around the world from two thousand and seven onwards started to look at Rosier. So now they're in a situation where they can concentrate on this is the character of provence Rosier, pale in color, luminors, delicate aromas, goes with food from around the world. This is the emphasis. It's not a campaign I think that became very well known. Very few pictures exist of this marketing campaign. But again, it was a concentration, the roundness of fruit. Really, what is the flavor? And again, this is something that's going to be quite important later on. So we've got they've done this very consolidated marketing approach and they did market research. And the market research said that consumers liked Rosay, not just provence Rosay, but any Rosay, although at this time, provence Rosay was still the most well known. Why? Because it's different. It's young. It's festive. It's easy to appreciate. Easy to forget now that until Jose appeared, most wine drinking was, you know, what vintage was the best You had to know the terroir. You had to know the details of the producers. Rosie, at this point, did not need it. Easy to understand. You didn't need any wine knowledge. You could share it with friends. Didn't have to decant it or anything just straight out the fridge liked by women apparently because it's pink. At this point, it was still just for summer, but thinking about how they can get further on this. And this is how Cort de provence interpreted this marketing research. The wines of provence had these answers. They were open minded. They weren't closed. They weren't narrow minded. The wines were versatile, especially when out of the fridge and fresh and fruity, can go with anything. None of this pretentious wine and food matching. Quality, the quality is still there, very important, maintaining that quality of product as being fresh and vibrant and fruity. And freedom of marketing. Now can you remember that very first picture that I showed of the rustic provence with the curvy bottles. That continues in provence. Freedom of marketing. Instagram started October twenty ten, hard to believe a world without degram now. And all of a sudden, we've got pictures of people having fun by the pool, by the beach, sunshine. And in twenty ten, when this all started and people would say to me, but you live in the south of France, do you drink Rosay? And I'd say, but I don't have a swimming pool. Twenty ten, I still, twenty eleven, I still thought of Rosay has only been for people who sat by a swimming pool. Because I was very much swayed by this marketing image. This is what you have on holiday, you're young, you have fun, what what's not to like. Now, what's interesting is the picture on the right, pale pink rose. Instagram image, these are pictures I took off Instagram. You have no idea where this rose comes from. But the hashtags did include provence and other regions, but it could be from anywhere. And in our minds, Rosay by the beach is often, provence. These are images used by, van der provence USA for this is the lifestyle image. You could also have eating out with friends. A picnic, going to the market, a French picnic surrounded by Lavenderfields and Bagette, and then an urban environment, which I think is New York. So but all with these very delicate tones of pale or pink, romantic, easy drinking. So who was drinking, the Rose? So what's interesting here is the age groups, the Dutch, on the right are the oldest wine drinkers, who like Rose. The French are the youngest, but Belgium, Australia, and, Scandinavia were slightly older. But on the whole, the trend is the younger market in twenty fifteen was still drinking Rosier. So not perceived as an older market drink. It's this millennial idea. This idea that Rosay is just for women, interestingly enough although these two for men and women look quite different, it is only in the Netherlands that there is a five percent difference between men and women liking Rosay. And in many countries, the divide is much, much closer. So this idea that it is only for women is not really supported by the facts. And I think with, increasing variety of Rose, men seem to prefer Rosets that are a bit heavier and a bit more complex, but really it's not, a striking difference between men and women. Freedom of marketing. This is coming back to the old traditional bottles. So there is no, bottle from the Cindica for provence producers. They can use whatever bottle they like. They can market it in any style, any labeling. Very fewer dark bottles, close ybonne, here it looks like a pale yellow, but it's actually quite a dark green bottle shape. This Coto decks bottle with the blue across the top. One reason that that's quite interesting is that if you have Rose in an ice bucket, the top of the bottle will not be affected by light strike. So that's sort of quite an interesting way of having clear glass for, the to see the color, but protected from the light. The squatter bottle of Miraval is appearing more and more for premium rose shapes. Above it, the Mary Christine and, the San Rosaline with the triangular shape are very old bottle shapes. So any bottle shape can go And one reason for that is also marketing. The idea was that if all the wines are pale pink, if you see a bottle of wine on a restaurant table, on somebody else's table, you might be able to identify the wine by the bottle shape, if not by the color. That was some of the theory. The other theory is that it's part of this festive fun decorating the table. So bottle shape has been very much part of their marketing image. So the next marketing campaign, twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen, we've moved on from taste tradition expertise. This is now lifestyle. And this advertising campaign actually won an award for the best wine marketing campaign in twenty fifteen, but we have it in the garden, a very elegant garden We have it a very urban picture in the middle, and we have it by the sea. Interestingly enough for French advertising, you cannot include people in the picture. So these are very much the French posters, that they would have had, but we're now looking at lifestyle. Lifestyle is what is building up on this emphasis that we've had in the previous marketing campaigns. And the current campaign, which I think will probably come to an end this year, these are the posters not used in France because they have people, but taste of style. The, the Gouda Steel. So we have picnics by the beach. We have by with friends in the garden. We have a romantic dinner. So building up on the previous, poster campaign, The idea of the picture was very much this old fashioned romantic, not old travel posters from the nineteen thirties, again, lifestyle. The lifestyle was very important. They've already established quality and expertise, tradition, and sense of place. Now it's this clear focus on lifestyle. But, the marketing that we've looked at so far has concentrated on the classic pale pink fresh rose. And the idea is behind niche rosé is that if you're in a restaurant and you've had your pale pink rosé for your aperitif, what you want people to do is then say I will go on to a more complex rosé that will go throughout the meal. So there was the denomination of terroir, which was introduced all the different regions. There's been a lot of criticism by producers. This is too complicated to sell. You don't have to start explaining terroir, but it is liked by smell use. I'm rushing now as I've been told I have five minutes. So the denominator terroir for a more complex market is there. Gastronomic and complex rosays, oaked rosays, aged rosays, with a heavier structure, maybe a bit of Cignet, are also part of this niche product, not so much of it, and not so predominantly marketed, but it is there, but is very much in the background for those in the know. Sparkling Rose from provence. Failed. I can't say that I'm excited by sparkling Rose from provence. I don't think that they have the great, right, great varieties, possibly not the right climate, the champagne life style has succeeded, but provence sparkling Rosay is not something for the time being that is going to get anywhere. But they have had success, big success, market leader, benchmark style regarded as the best. Whether or not any of these elements are true or not, this is the very strong marketing image that they have achieved over the past twenty years. You can see trends in sales going up and trends in value of Rosier. They're not just the volume, but also the the value and price of the Rosier is going up. Marketing challenges. This is the big problem. If repel Rosay is regarded as the only indicator of quality and style, it's very difficult to compete. Pravants cannot increase volume of production. They have to understand how to market why their style is different to everybody else's. It's not just color, but what is their taste that makes it unique. They would like to encourage diversity with other regions so that, wine list will have a rose from Kyoretto, from provence, from the loire, with very clear distinct styles. That is something they would be very keen on. They're very, very strong emphasis on consistency of quality and volume, and they would like sales all year. And behind the scenes, how they're achieving the quality, far more work, in the vineyards, to prune vines specifically for Rose, how to adapt to climate change, irrigation site selection, vine training, new varieties have been introduced, clonal selection, and a provence yeast, which will give this uniform provence style quality. So in conclusion, whatever the Rosay styles are around the world, provence has managed to maintain for the past twenty to thirty years a very consistent image promotion of quality and a style, and that is their success story. It's been a slow progression, building up the levels of marketing, not just coming in with we make a pale fresh rose, as a beautiful escalation of tradition, quality, style, building on previous images. I'm out of breath. I think we've done it in the time allotted, and I don't know if we've run out of time for questions, but if anyone does have questions, I'm here. Thank you, Elizabeth. Actually, I I don't see any questions. Oh, sorry. I just I just want to to ask you something. Do you think that, in Italy, I'll so our region, which is Lake garda, will be able to increase, the the the number of bottles of Rosay, working together and making, promoting all together our Jose coming from the east and the west coast of our lake. I I think so. I think all the indications are that sales are still going up. Rose is still a growing trend. I my big fear is that, Kyaretto de Bardellino, tries to compete with provence Rosay, and I, you know, I I just love the that acidity and cherry fruit and minerality that Kyretteo de Badalino can have. And I think that is something. It's a lovely style, and I don't see why it shouldn't increase. Yeah. Thank you. I I know so. Yeah. My my big thing is I I do love diversity even within an appalachian. So, for provence, I think that niche Rosay is something that has to develop more to to maintain a unique stand and that I think is quite quite important for any region. Yeah. I agree. And I hope also that, in a in all over Italy, we will increase the consumption of Rosier because in Italy still, is, under is around six, seven percent, which is very few. And so I hope that it will be increasing. I think it should do, and I think, as soon as people start tasting the good rut rose, then they realize the value of it. And it's like anyone, you don't compare a two euro rose and say it's not as good as a red and white. You have to look for comparative quality levels. Yes. Cheers. Thank you very much. Thanks for your new Rosay. Thank you very much, Elizabeth. Time, we will share a good glass of wood. Fantastic. Thanks a lot, dear. Thank you. Bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian Wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.