Ep. 1180 Sheila Donohue Interviews Antonella Manuli | Clubhouse Ambassador's Corner

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This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts alike, engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. And remember to scribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. This is Clubhouse Ambassador Corner. And, my name is Joy Livingston, and I'm standing in for Steve Gim, who is out in the big wild world traveling, doing wine things. So I hope you guys are okay with me. Hi there, Sheila. Hey there. So I'm just gonna give you a quick introduction tonight so Sheila Donahue, is going to be interviewing Antonela Manuli, and I'm sure I I didn't pronounce that correctly. I am Tonela. Hello. You pronounce perfectly. Oh, you're very, very kind. So, let's see here. Sheila, you are a New Yorker and that you've been living in Italy for twenty years. Where where are you in Italy? In belongia? Okay. Okay. So so in the north end, not too far from us, you are the founder of Veravino and, CEO and, Sommelier as well. After you became a Sommelier, You got and you got to know hundreds of of different smaller producers. Do you have, anything you want to to to add to that? Is there is there something I'm missing? Yeah, no. I do like to make a connection to the, the Italy international, ambassador community that, I I started. I got involved in the community in two thousand seventeen. When I had a year of sabbatical and I was considering to start my my business. And, and I just, you know, I really enjoyed the course. I I learned, you know, learning about, I thought I had thought I knew everything about Italian wine after having lived in Italy for almost twenty years and became a summergate there. But I found out, rude awakening when I didn't pass the first course that I didn't know enough I didn't know, you know, enough. Let's say, I mean, it's a constant learning, of, you know, of of Italian wines, especially, but, but I just, just wanted to kinda give a shout out to the community of ambassadors. That I I like it. Awesome. So, I guess my my next, I would this brings me then to, why you selected Antonella Manuli as your favorite producer. So I, I like, I identify with Antonella, being a woman, a woman in wine and a woman in business. And, I must say that I, She strikes a cord with me, and probably because I aspire to be an innovator and roover and shaker and whine like she is. Awesome. Okay. And, how did you how did you, first learn of her wines or taste her wines or even, you know, meet her? Perhaps, I'm not sure if you've met before in person. Yeah. Well, we met, in two thousand eighteen at, a networking event in Milan. And, it it happened to be a panel of woman wine, winery owners. And, so miss Antonori and miss Fracascobaldi were on the panel. And so was so was Antonela. And, you know, I really liked her story and that is what, you know, brought me to get to know her. Awesome. And last question. And what what kind of learning objectives, did you wanna bring to the conversation? Did you want the the audience to take away from the conversation today? Yeah. I mean, I, the conversation today, I I'd say, will be, beyond the wine, a lot about farming about, winery's involvement in the community. And, and also, to find out how a winery can, let's say, turn back to the old and and more pure traditions but in a smart way. So that way these traditions are are carried forward to both preserve the future, but also in a way that makes business sense. Okay. Well, that actually sounds I sounds really interesting. I'm really interested to hear about the farming aspect, actually. So I guess without further ado, I will come back at the end and, wrap things up, and perhaps we might have a question. From the audience. And, yeah, go ahead, guys. Okay. So, so, Antonella, I'm really happy to be talking with you today. And I'd like it instead of me giving you, an overview of your life. I prefer if you, tell us, your story and, you know, your, your journey in particular that led you to start, Paturria La Maliosa. Hello, Sheila. Enjoy. Thank you for having me. Just I have a little bit of a sore throat so I will clear my voice once in a while in excuse me for that. So, Sheila, yes. Well, I haven't had, a life where I was, born and grown up in the same place. I was around quite a lot. I I lived in Switzerland in the mountains, until I was, about fourteen, and I was back in Italy, but, living in the country for three years. And then I went to, college in the United States playing golf on a on a golf scholarship in California. And and then actually, I came back to Italy when I was, twenty three, but, really, I came back probably not really as a as a person with an Italian heritage. So I I've always felt like I was like an Italian speaking non Italian with maybe different ideas on a lot of things. And, so I started working. I I graduated in a business administration. So I started working in a, like, a typical career path, like, you know, finance, bank, etcetera, etcetera. And, around, twenty seven, twenty eight years old, I had an opportunity to work in the in the Marima Tuscany. It's it's south of Tuscany. In a in a resort, it was, and so it's it's a place that I had never been to actually in my life, and, it was quite shocking at first because, I I got there. It was, I think, nineteen ninety, and and the place was actually quite wild. I mean, is is not really, like, like it is today. It's still wild, but not so, I would say, unknown as as far as as, also, you know, tourism was not so developed. It was not known out side of Italy. It it was only, you know, I think probably the the only tourists there were people from Rome, which is really close. So they they need a place. Otherwise, even for Italians of other regions. It was still quite unknown. So that's really the story of how I got to Marima. Sorry. And so I worked there for, for a few years. And I was really, right from the beginning, really impressed by the natural, side, you know, of of the place. The environment was, very, very unspoiled. It was, very sparsely populated. They say that Marima has the same population density as Siberia, meaning, not a lot of people around. So nature is really owns you. You have you have this, feeling, a lot of times in Marima where it's kind of like Africa where it's one of those rare places on earth, I think, where humans are still have a feeling, whereas they're not in control of of the world. Okay? So it's it's the natural world is controlling you. So this is very peculiar. And apart from, of course, beautiful landscape and really I mean, it's it's a place that you see and you cannot forget. So I really go to no, you know, I visited a lot of places. And also one of the things that struck me was, there seemed to be no awareness in the local population of this very, unique aspect about the unspoiled environment. And there were absolutely no agriculture projects that were based on, healthy production or, sustainable production. So now we are speaking probably around the beginning of the of the, you know, two thousand, two thousand three, where I stopped working at the terminal, and by that time, I already had a child and I was working on my second child. So I thought also to take, a couple of years to think about what I wanted to do with my life. Also, you know, with with two children, small children, at home. And that's where I started, thinking that maybe I could do something. That was based on on sustainability and producing healthy, products. And, also, you know, to to kind of give some tangible value to all this beauty that was there. So that's it. Thanks, Santela. And, What about wine? How how did, how did your interest in and wine come about? Okay. Wine was a consequence because really, I didn't really start out with the idea I'm going to make wine. I started out with the idea of let's produce something that is in tune with this type of environment. Okay? That is all not just the environment, but also the history of the place. And so, of course, so that the two, consequences of this, reasoning were I'm going to produce wine and olive oil. Okay. Because these are the two historical cultivations, especially olive oils in that area, even even more than wine. But, Okay. We we, at this point, Sheila, I didn't have, a company, though. Okay? I didn't have anything. So I really, needed to find some plots of land that were suitable to this type of project, which actually took me a few years because, the it it wasn't easy and, because, you know, I wanted some characteristics to not just for producing, but also, you know, I, I needed to have, like, a nice landscape and, and the combination of of, historical cultivations on the on the land, meaning like an old vineyard, which is not very easy to find there. And, and Olegs would that's easier. So this came to a conclusion around two thousand eight and two thousand nine. That's that's where actually we we started moving our first steps. Okay. And, So, you describe, Liosa as an agricultural startup. And you just, tell us why Yes. Why you described it that way? Yes. We're used to thinking about startups as being like fintech. Okay? Or, you know, very, very fast, things that, you know, just really start out on ideas and, and grow very quickly. But you can you can have you can apply the same concepts in agriculture. You could you can be innovative. You could do something different. However, what's really, different from other startups is is time. So, I was really starting from scratch. So, so time, of course, was was a lot longer period than in usual startups that we are used to thinking about. But all the characteristics of the startup, I think, are there. Including, you know, doing something new, or something old in a in a different way and with, starting from scratch on a on an idea. So I think this is really a lot of ingredients. Okay. So maybe as we're talking, you can give us some more more examples of, you know, of the change of the innovation that that you've been doing. But, but first, tell us what it was like the first year that you were a wine grower and and making wine, considering that you were new to the industry and that you're also a woman. Okay. Yes. Shira. I'm sorry. The the problem was that I was new. Not not only I was new. But everybody else seemed to be new, like even in the wine industry that they just did not know what I was talking about. Nobody was used in any way of working in a more sustainable way. Okay. Let's keep in mind, we are we are speaking about a few years ago where now, you know, everything is sustainable and everybody's an expert. Everybody wants to do it. Back then, nobody had a clue, alright, which is something I realized very quick that I was, speaking some different unknown language that didn't find anybody that was able to consider it and and also, have a know how that could be applied. So it it was really, new in every sense. So this was a major, issue because, or, you know, the consultants that I could find, not just in the area, but, really, anywhere they they just had their ideas, which was, you know, the, the, conventional, you know, way it that that that was done and, they really didn't know how to do anything else. And and the fact of being a woman, while being being a woman, I think is a is an issue in Italy at any stage, not just in the startup stage. I think it's it's an issue, to my surprise, I have to say, more in in the world of wine because I came from the banking and financial. And actually there, it was not so much of an issue. I mean, come to the world of wine, it's like, as people, they they they're kind of surprised. They were, the typical question that I'm I'm always asked even today is so you got this from your father. You got this from your families involved. You know, you have an uncle. You have a brother. You have a cousin. I mean, in in the mind of people, if you're working in the world of wine, you must have some kind of a family, heritage, basically male, otherwise, I don't know. So so this this really quite surprised me a little bit because I was not expecting that. But also I have to say, I think being a woman gave me more freedom and and doing from scratch and being a woman also gave me more freedom to think outside of the box and not feel like I was tied to any previous ideas, somebody else's ideas and also to experiment, maybe also make some mistakes, without feeling, you know, I was breaking any, unwritten rules or or or ways or old ways. So, what was the beginning of of of your questions? She asked. I yeah. No. Yeah. No. I think I think you you answered it. Certainly, you gave us a really good picture of of what it was like, not only first year as a a wine blower, but also, to up to today, and was it being a woman in the industry. So, let's talk a bit about, Lorenzo Carino, and, for for those of you that are listening, he was a a very cultural researcher who, sadly passed away, a year ago. And, and, and, Chanella, If you can tell us how you came to to know Lorenzo, and what role did he play in your startup. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps or books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged and much much more. Just visit our website mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. Okay. Yes, Sheila. Like I was saying before, I had this big issue of finding some let's say, technical help that knew, you know, that that could really put my project, in practice that had experience in sustainable beauty culture. I I realized this very soon, and I started out, you know, with a very wide search, of where this, you know, person could be in by a series of lucky, meetings. I came in called Lorenzo, and I project to him, and he he came down to Marima. This was December twenty twelve. And he was very, very struck right away, but by the the natural quality of the place, it was was really really impressed. And, Lorenzo had been working, like you said, with the National Research. He was the head of the Enological Institute in Asti. He was a very, very well known person, in in the Viticulture research, published a lot of papers. And he was, he was, retiring. It was, is I was also very lucky because he was retiring in December twenty twelve. And so was free to take up any other, you know, whatever. Yeah. In so he came down to to Mariosa. I visited and, for me, it was speaking with him, the the first couple of times we met. It was like, you know, when you when you have, like, a light bulb lighting in your head, and it was, for me, it was like, like, aha moment, you know. It was like, oh my god, you know, like, this person. Not or this is also what I said to him as a no not only you understand what I would like to do, but you can take this a step forward. And if we we can go even further, a lot further than my original thinking. I knew he had, quite a few proposals for private, from for private use. Onener is when he retired, including some very, very big names but Lorenzo is a very was a very pure person. And I'm sure he, chose, of course, La Maliosa, which was quite a risky choice and and not for money or or, you know, because he could have earned, of course, a lot more with some big names. But also because he understood, you know, he had the freedom I gave him a lot of freedom, to do something, completely, faithful to his ideas and from scratch. This is very important because not everybody has the opportunity to plant vineyards. And and we basically had to do everything from most of the vineyards. I planted with him. And so, he could, he realized in in Maliosa, he could continue doing some research, but on his own terms, which is not something he could, always do when he was working for the public sector. I would say this is the beginning. And what, so what did you accomplish together with Lorenzo? Well, Lorenzo is an expert on soil. So, we started from there. We, you know, one peculiar aspect because we we were going to plant vineyards for already with the idea of producing, natural wine and very, very low intervention. In the management of the vineyards. So by planting with this idea in mind, we could already do something that would help us in the long run to achieve these goals. So, of course, starting from the soil, we we had a project going with the of of Ferreza. The Kreya is the national institute that is studying, life in in, well, it's a reasonable research institute in agriculture. They do a lot of things. But, with them, we started this project, that was, basically, to look at life in the soil before and after planting the vineyard. Of course, I'm not going into technical stuff, but basically this this is important because the way we plant did not disrupt life in the soil. Okay. This is very important because usually when you plant a vineyard in order to achieve the same quantity of of of, life. This this is a measure that is called soil biological quality as BQ. It's it's it's an official name for for this measure. Usually, you you take it it's very disrupted. The SBU is very disrupted by, the planting of a vineyard. In our case, it wasn't. And and this all goes to the health of the vines. Of course, we're not producing for high yields. So we kind of, allow for the natural, you know, physiology of the vines to express itself, and this started with soil. Also by, for example, by planting, vineyards in, now help me with the English word, which I don't remember. The the Alberlo training system, how's the Alberlo shoot. I'll let you know. I'm not sure. Oh, hey, train. Head train. Okay. Yes. So so the the way of the pruning, they're important. The variety we chose and and, of course, the management and, it's it's a process. Okay. It's it's a process. It's not one single thing, but if it's a combination of, of a lot of things that basically is completely preserving the environment within the vineyard the same way as it would be without it. So the this is is not, something obvious that I'm telling you because it's usually the environment within the vineyard is is completely different as an environment outside of the vineyard. Right? He had a saying. He actually also wrote an article, that was, the the title was, bring, something like bringing the forest into the vineyards. Which doesn't mean we're gonna plant foods in the vineyard, of course. It's just to preserve biodiversity and complexity, not of of the life below the soil, but also above for example, by not disrupting the herbs, the wild herbs that, that, that grow spontaneously. And then, from all of this, work that you did with Lorenzo. The the byproduct was the memento Corino. Correct? Yes. So we started, twenty thirteen. We realized by twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen that we actually had like, you know, we we we had to find, a very clear process for for all the things that we were doing. And, so we decided to, give it a name. So since we are, in the world of wine, we thought Maitreaux was was a good, a good way to call it. And, and we gave it the name of of Lorraine. So it's last name because, it originated, you know, from all of his ideas. They were putting practice in Maliosa. So it was also like, you know, I I think it was nice to him for him to have his name on it. And, also, I think, we needed some way to give transparency to the market about what we were actually doing. Because, you know, very well that, you know, natural wine is not something is is a name that is used within the trade and the industry. However, it doesn't have a legal definition So it's it's, very common that we go to a natural wine event or affair. And and you find ten producers with eight different ideas on how to make wine. This this can be very confusing. And also very, very sometimes quite hard to explain to people what you're doing. So, we thought that giving transparency to our actions or to this process would also help, you know, our customer to really understand us and communicate to to to them. Without of the need to to, to, necessarily say we were making natural wine and getting to all this confusing market mess about that is behind natural wine. And what have you seen in terms of the the actual benefits, applying, the methodocorino in terms of the wine, the quality of the wine, in terms of the the fruit and the vineyards. Yes. Okay. All the the combination of all these processes that make up tomato Corino have the the the main aim of producing grapes with thick skin. Of course, healthy grapes with thick skin. So that this is important because, since we are, not, adding anything in the cellar, we're not using any technology, we're not using, we're using a the indigenous yeast not adding any any chemicals or of any kind. It's important to have a thick skin, and we're also you know, making skin contact wines. So this is is helping to to to produce, better quality, for this type of wines. So this is is one main point, I would say. The healthy grapes, the healthy vines that don't need so much. So we're keeping the environment of the of the vineyard, pure. Okay? And, and also, and and and also the thick skin, I would say. Okay. So speaking, speaking of grapes, you grow, and make wine from Prochanico, Nabiano, Sanjay, Chilio Jolo, and Cannon Al Green. So of those grapes, which one is your favorite from, a wine growers perspective and also a winemakers perspective? Well, I can I can only say the the okay? Prochaniko is my favorite. I would say it's it's a area related because, one very important point is that we are using local varieties that are very adapted to the place, climate, and soil. So, it's it's not an absolute, concept because I I could take my proconical and and plant it I don't know. Maybe, you know, very rainy place, and it wouldn't give us a nice result. But definitely, Prochaniko is my is my favorite grape because it's a it's a rare grape, very, very ancient is dating back to the Roman Times. It's it was already, mentioned by plenius, the the Roman agronomist. And, it it's really condensed a condensation of of, you know, everything that Marima is including history and and, it's quite original. It's it's not a taste that you are, used to. It's not a modern wine, I would say. But it's a very, very authentic witness to the place. And, I maybe I didn't mention it's it's a white grape. Yeah. I know, it was a grape. I learned in two thousand seventeen in San Francisco in the Italy Ambassador's class. Yeah. So tell us a bit about, how the the local community where you are in Marema how they have benefited from, ma'amaliosa and, and how they're involved in your farm. In the beginning, actually, everybody was quite suspicious I I know there was a lot of talking behind my back. Probably, you know, they were thinking what is this woman from outside doing and completely crazy. But then they changed their mind a lot, I think, because, they saw how what I was doing there that they couldn't understand at first was actually got a lot of recognition outside of Marima. And and I gave, value to, an area that that really had been a little bit forgotten Maraima is the forgotten Tuscany. And and, so they realized, I think at one point, that actually this was good for, you know, for the area. Besides the fact that the company has grown and that I've been hiring, you know, more, more locals, which was good for the, for the small local economy. But also I think, actually, it's it was interesting because I could I I gave this this area an idea that they could they could, do something. I mean, they were worth something. Marima, Marima is is really has a little bit of a complex you know, they they feel like they may be inferior, not as well considered, as the rest of Tuscany, but I I think with the now if mine is not probably the the only project that we started working in more stable way, but I I really think I was a pioneer for the terroir, and they really gave them an idea that they could, they could do something, as well. Okay. And then, can you tell us, how your your farm and, and your your wine being impacted by climate change. And is there anything specific that you're you're doing to, combat the risks of climate change? Yes. Yes, climate change is a very, very big problem. It's impacted actually a lot. Of course, not just me, but, everybody in the area. Marima is a is a place where the, the weather is as historically has been extreme. So you have, like, an, an extreme heat, extreme rain, extreme drought. So everything is very, very extreme. Okay? What we found, in in the past five years, we've had four years of drought. So, it seems, that the new normal is drought. And this is, a very, very big complication. Because, it's not always possible to to water, you know. And, there's not a lot of water in the area besides that. And and I think a lot of, community reports see that, like, power where you get like, panning. K? The everything is drying up. The rivers have been drying up. But this is not okay. This year, the drought was everywhere in Italy. The problem with Marima's been four out of five years. And it the temperatures, so every year, It's not just the annual drought. It's that it's depleting all the water beneath the soil, you know, in in the groundwater. So the vineyards have never had such a big problem with summer droughts or high temperature because that's normal. The problem is we are having winters without rain, and this is really what's damaging, what's really damaging a lot, all kinds of agriculture actually in the area. And to tell you, I don't have the magic solution. What, what we are doing I think it was already mitigating a lot the the problem of the drought. However, it's not possible to survive without water. So, we are looking for underground water within the property and, and, to to find some system to be able to irrigate in in this kind of, emergency situation. Okay. Alright. So, turn it back to, to join now if you'd like to have, have others ask questions. Hi there. Yeah. That was that was great. And in fact, we do have a question from Paul Bologna. And he says I had the pleasure of meeting Anta del la at Vineita Lee a few years ago. Subsequently purchased her wine. My question for you has to do with the future of blockchain. Given your passion for innovation, what do you see for the future of blockchain? Okay. Thank you for your question because, actually, we have a blockchain on our labels. So, I think, blockchain is a very interesting concept for producers that are are work working like Athena in a very sustainable way because, it's it's, a help given by technology to demonstrate what we're doing because the danger of of everybody speaking about sustainability today, of course, is greenwashing. Everybody is claiming, you know, they're doing a lot of things, but you never know where the truth is, what's, you know, the the I think we're speaking too much and doing too little. So this is kind of damaging for producers like us who are very, very serious about the matter. And it can be confusing for the customer to be able to distinguish, you know, who is working properly, who is who's doing greenwashing. So I think blockchain, can be implemented in the future to we we've had a a blockchain on our labels, because we had we had a project with very, very big sponsors. So we didn't have to pay for it. However, I hope in the future, it will become more affordable. And so we will be able to do it without sponsor, and maybe also other producers. It would be a tool that will be we will be able to use to show the car the consumer, how we're working. Awesome. Okay. Great. And, I'm just gonna put it out there. If anybody has any questions, for Anton, I'm not feel free to raise your hand. And if not, if you just want, if you're too shy, you can always email me the question. I'll forward it to info at italian wine podcast dot com. So I don't see anybody raising their hand, in that case, I'm going to close the room soon, Antonela, But I want to ask you, Leica. What do we have next for Clubhouse? Okay. So next week, we're gonna have three Club houses. It's because we're trying to record as many as possible for the Christmas break. Anyway, so on the twenty next week, sorry. Next week, there are no club houses, but next next week, there's gonna be November twenty one, John Camacho Pidal will be interviewing Oscar Arriba Benny. From the medical, clerico. On the twenty second, there's Shawin Du, and she will be interviewing Avinian as a CEO and head winemaker Matteo Justiniani. Then on the twenty fourth, Arlene Ariveros, we'll be interviewing Franchesca Vaira. So that's it. Alright. So, yeah, if you have any questions, guys, you just, send an email to info at Italianmy podcast dot So that's it, Joy. Awesome. Thank you so much. Both of you, Sheila, and Antonella. Thank you so much for your time and for the great interview. That was amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Sheila, for having me, and thank you, Joy. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud Apple Podcast spotify, EmailIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production and publication costs. Until next time.