Ep. 1537 Josje Van Oostrom Interviews Heydi Bonanini | Clubhouse Ambassadors’ Corner

Since twenty seventeen, the Italian One podcast has exploded and expects to hit six million listens by the end of July twenty twenty three. We're celebrating this success by recognizing those who have shared the journey with us and giving them the opportunity to contribute to the on success of the shows. By buying a paper copy of the Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a donation to help the ongoing running costs, members of the international Italian wine community will be given the chance to nominate future guests and even enter a price draw to have lunch with Stevie Kim and Professor Atigioshenza. To find out more, visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Welcome to this special Italian wine podcast broadcast. This episode is a recording off Clubhouse, the popular drop in audio chat. This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts alike engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. And remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Clubhouse Ambassador Corner. So today is our last stretch for our summer marathon before the summer break. So we've got Yosjevan Usrom. Hello? Hi Yosje. Don't forget to mute. Yes. Hi there. Tell it to be. How's it going? How are you? I'm great. Thank you. How are you? All good. All good here. I'm looking forward for summer. I guess everybody in the office too. So right now, we've got somewhere to Heidi, Bonanini, so he's also here. He just arrived from from the vineyards, and then just arrived home to just have this stable Internet connection, just what we need for the clubhouse session. Alright. So before I begin, I'm just happy to say that our clubhouse Ambassador's Corner is one of the favorite shows on Italian one podcast. So this show is going to be recorded and there'll be up sometime in this month, August for Italian one podcast listeners. So Yoshe is our Italian wine ambassador and Italian wines color. He's an Italian Somier with ice, specialized in organic biodynamic and especially natural wines, offering consulting education, tastings, counting tours, and events since two thousand seven for both the Dutch market and internationally. Her company was first called profundo Reisen, and now she renamed it as Divino Natura. She has a love for Italy ever since nineteen eighty seven. That was very, very long. Ago. And, actually, you're very fluent with Italian. I'm really impressed when I met you back in Via. And that explains, perhaps, so she's into Italian wine since nineteen ninety four. And on a mission to discover all the great varieties ever since. Yes. That's correct. Yeah. It's a it's a big mission, but Yes. I'm I'm progressing. Oh, anyway, so I'll continue on. I'll go through some of the important parts. She lived in Rome, and she studied and lived in Florence and later on in LaGuria. Is there where you met Heidi in Naguria when you went there? Yes. And then, she toured every main wine region in two thousand fourteen, two thousand sixteen. And she lived in the Goria till March twenty nineteen and went back to the Netherlands. And she organized first Italian natural wine fair in utrecht in August two thousand nineteen. So you've got a very long biography here, but I'm not gonna take up your time for the interview with Heidi. So, yeah, tell us first Why did you select Heidi Bonanini as your favorite producer? Well, first, it's really hard for me to choose a favorite producer since I know so many and like the question, what's your favorite wine or grape? I don't have one. I mean, there are lots, but since I lived in liguria, and it's very, dear and special to my heart, and especially the area where Heidi lives and works, I feel like he's a big example in so many ways. I almost get emotional now because he does so much for for the territory for, you know, recovering grapes that were lost, recovering the land rebuilding the dry stone walls. The list is very long, and it's so impressive. And when you come there, it's like, you can't grasp until you are actually there how steep the slopes are everything. And then He makes wonderful wines in very different wines also from the famous Chakra who, of course, the the whites in the Bino Bianco, cinque terre, and many more also some even more rare reds, pacito, and, wines made in amphora. So he's about tradition, reviving tradition, but also experimenting with, different styles of woods, different styles of amphora, And then he has his big heart and takes on, migrant Musifa who teach how to work in the vineyard, how to build the dry stone walls, how to make wine, and now this has his whole project, Vinomigranta, where they are recuperating old vines and making a Chakra out of it and teaching new migrants how to do this work, and the list goes on and on. So that's why. That's really emotional and sincere. And I I used to post that Heidi is a very inspiring winemaker. Thank you for sharing highly with us. And, what are the learning objectives that we should expect from the interview? Well, of course, there is this theme called heroic winemaking. I know Heidi doesn't like to be called heroic, but if there is anyone that is truly heroic in the way he makes wine, but not only, then for me, it's him But also, you know, Chakra, people have read about it, have heard about it, but we'll get into it. And the difficulty of winemaking there, the the forgotten grape varieties that he has recovered So we're talking really geeky stuff here, may vines made in amphora, and the differences, etcetera. Okay. Looking forward, and I'm sure are you telling what ambassadors here are also looking forward to it. And so last question is, how did you discover the wines of La Posa? I was actually thinking about that, because when I first toured around in Italy, and I visited the He was not yet on my lists because he didn't show up. I even had a book about Incutera winemakers, but he was not in there. So I only discovered him when I actually lived there and started visiting him on various occasions, you know, I helped with the ones with the harvesting, which was awesome. So we met on many wine fairs. Okay. So right now, I'm going to meet myself, and I will leave the floor to you. And, yeah, So, yeah, I have to introduce Heidi a little bit more, but I think I already did some in the first introduction, why I chose him as a favorite winemaker. I have some teams myself, like, old fines, recuperated fines, and really, you know, in all of of of those winemakers that try to do that. And Heidi is definitely one of them. And then there's this thing with rare grape varieties, and they don't get much rarer than the list that heidi had. He cultivates about nineteen different ones. Well, we all know Bosco because it's in the DSC. And in our book, alvaroza, of course, in Vermentino, but who knows is more, well known in the tuscany bon amico. It makes a nice red with the combination also Rose. And then there is Regina Bianca. Well, I've never even heard of that one. Well, there's many truly rare varieties going on here. So Heidi, he started winemaking when he was sixteen two thousand four. From the start, he made what he calls, vinipulieti, would say clean wines, no chemicals used in the vineyards. And in the cellar, which is not easy anyway, but especially in the area where he is working. He is in a to be exact in the in the province of La Statesa in the region of liguria as we already said. The rebuilding of those dry stone walls, that's really a thing. I think he has, like, more than two kilometers, and it's an amazing task. I actually went to see some people that did, like, they showed how to do it. So I got an idea. He won the price, slow wine, named him sustainable Viticulture of the year two thousand twenty three, and a winemac named him best winery of Northern Italy also for this year. Then there's lots of metals going on from Vignac Thresmey to the concur among the all in Brussels. He right now has about five factors. Four of them are in Latinque terre. His winery is called Laposa. And that's like two and a half hectares, which are close to where he lives and where he also has a cellar. And the vines really go from all the way down to the sea until a hundred fifty meters in that vineyard. And it's super, super steep. ID will tell us later on how steep exactly, but it's it's kind of scary if you're afraid of heights, which I am, actually. And then he has lots of different parcels of old, recuperated fines all over the area. And then there is one other Hector that's, like, divided outside Chincuatera, like, the island from Maria, which is in the Gulf of the boats. So he goes by boats to actually harvest those grapes and take them back to the cellar, which is like an amazing site. And then there are some other parcels in Lavento Bonasola and Santa Maria Viguro. So more up north little bits. The wines, there are like lots of them. He produces about twenty five thousand bottles now. He is nowadays working full time in the vineyard and in the cellar and also has Muusta far working alongside with him. Obviously, he's most famous for the Shakaatra. And he has like, let's say, a classic Shakara, which is already rare in itself. And it's like about eighteen hundred bottles. And then he does, like, the same thing, but then in amphora, and that's about eight hundred bottles. And then he does another one, from even more rare grapes, the red grapes that I talked about before. That's four hundred bottles. So we're talking like two little gems that are only for the happy few. And then there's even a white pacito from the Regina and Moscato grape. Of course, he has the Then we're talking a little bit more serious numbers for a bigger markets, eight thousand bottles, more or less the same wine, also made an amphora about thousand bottles nine hundred forty to be exact Then he has a white from only albarola grapes, which is interesting, obviously, to grasp that, grape a little better, four thousand bottles. And then there are some other whites, the piano, vermantino, and albarola. And then there's also the vin Daivecchi Bianco. So, yeah, the wine of the older people, like, old style, macerated on the skins, and on the skins of the Shaqatra, I should say. So that's interesting. He has a wine named after his son. The name says it's all. Yeah. The prince Jacobo, he's a lovely little feller, and Heidi will tell more about him. I'm sure. I think it's a big driving force behind a lot of things. That's tomato though, Anchestrale with albarola grapes, Bosco, and Vermont. And then there is a Rosato based on Bonamico, and Moscow grapes, about eight thousand And then there is also a rosato, Frizante, may told the, with bonamico and Moscato grapes as well. And then there is a red wine, which is based on Fifty percent in Bonamico, both grape varieties that you find more in Tuscany, but Bonamico in itself is rather rare as well. And then there's another one with the same grape varieties, but also the skins of the shaka trap inside. So that's a whole lot. And now I think it's time to start, asking some questions to Heidi so ID, unmute yourself and we'll get ready to dive in. Yes. Yes. I'm ready. Okay. That was a long introduction. I had many questions lined up for you. Can you tell us something maybe start off, first, with the grape varieties, how did you rediscover all these old grape varieties that were lost and rare? My job starting, guys, that you say twenty nine years ago, I'm very young. I'm, for me, it's a it's a play. For the first time I revealed a dry wall of not in people that, teach me, but I only see old people near me that work, and the rebuild of the wall. So after I starting to take the land around, the only three terraces of my family in my land, because I started with a eight hundred meter, square meter, And so I started to study because I'm very passionate of the history of my land. I I have a grape from two thousand years ago. So it's a very long history, you know, one of the moral part in Italy that produce wine. And so we find, during because I I work before when I starting to make wine, I work ten years for the National Park, and the Ford National Park, we find, an old diary where, a priced of two century before described a twenty four different kind of grape, only locally in Chinguitare. And so, I started to speak with the old, the old man in all the village of the cinque terre. And we go to find, when some people say me that, I have a strange grape. I have another kind of grape that is similar, Vermentino, but is not as another another flavor, another perform. So we're starting to make a study for ten years with the for tonight, we have a friend that I would work for the university in Pisa, and that we're starting to take a part of plant and we study the part of plant. It's a very beautiful, study for me because I'm not studying the university for Make wine. So, for me, I starting to know all from, these are, and it's very beautiful because we find some type of grape that is from other family, but after many here in the Chingu terre with our type of land, our claim, they changed the plant. They changed the flavor. They changed the the perfume in the wine. And so we find a nineteen different type of grape. And we are the only one that, today we have bigger quantity of grape. And we have one grape that, not have name because it's not, never people know this plant. I say that it's my gold in my land or this one. Italian wine podcast brought to you by mama jumbo shrimp. Okay. Interesting. The thought of golds are the grape of gold. I wanted to get into some more, like, you have eighty percent of Bosco in your cinque terre diochi. How come you have such a high percentage Yes. Because, I starting, to make one two thousand four, two thousand four. I have only my land near the sea. Usually, the land near the sea is the best for make the great for plant the grape for the Shaka trap and, for having a good quality of grape. And usually, in the grape, near the seed, the people plant, Bosco, because Bosco is a very delicate grape. It's a great grape that is starting from Genoa. We have the first notice in Genoa, and, all the people are finished to work because it's very it's more delicate. It's very delicate. But in Chiqua terrifying, a good agriculture because it's an agriculture. Well, the women have to stay every day in the land and stop inching with that. And the form in in my land, from my first year, I started to plant only Bosco because for me, Bosco is a really characteristic, grape of the shingle crack. Now we find that the white marrow says that that is another very interesting grape, but I maintain the big percentage in Bosco because of the inside many, many characteristics. I like. I try to make other wine from, alvarrola, Gujanku, from other, kind of, but for me, the Bosco maintained the real ching with the when people say me what, for me, which wine is, really of the shim butter, I say the shim butter dop, because it's the, really, you find the solid part. If you work around our land, you find, many, parfum, many flavor that you find around our land. And so I prefer maintaining for the distributed tariffs, for the Shaqetra, a big percentage in a Bosco grape. And you also made a Shaqetra in, for, since, several years. I think since two thousand fifteen, can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes. I like to try because I have an an idea because, in the two thousand eight, the reserve, the people that make the recycling to the sea, and they find the an old ship that downed the sea that is full of amphora from the time of the Roman Empire, they make a study, and they find a two amphora that, with the deanna, arrived from the cinque terre. So from this time, I have the idea to work with the amphora but for the Checkatrade, it's not simple because you know that the Shankatrade is very precious. And, if you lost, eight hundred bottle of Checkatrade in, it's terrible for the economy of the farm. So I spend more time. I study before I try many wine in amphora and the same wine, instill or in wood. And then I decide that we start in the two thousand fifteen. We're starting with a three different for a, of three different material. Two is a terracotta, but it's two different cooking. So one has more oxygen exchange, one less, and then we use the ceramic color for us. And, we maintain for three years, the same wine inside the these three amphora, and we take all the sensation that we find when we test the wine from every different job. And, we decide to have two for the year that is more difficult. We use, terracotta. For the year that is more simple. We use ceramic. But ever here, we make one, Checkatrade from the job. Can you explain the difference in taste or structure with between the two? Yes. Usually, terracotta is good, very good when you have not balanced wine. When you have not balanced wine, we're not balanced Checkatrade. Checkatrade want more time for arrive a good balance. So you think that you have to drink for arrive to the top of the Chakra, you have to wait ten years. But, his minimum is three years before to put in the bottle for having a for starting to have a good balance. Terracotta arrive more fast because, have a very strong oxygen exchange that balance, in few time, the wine. But, there is some years similar to thousand twenty one, now, I I think, that, is very dry here. So the sugar dry arrive, to a good balance in nature. And, if you use a terracotta, it's possible that you're starting to oxidation the wine before. And so I prefer to use the ceramic ceramic as the three percent of the oxygen has changed than the normally terracotta, and so is for, stop more the life of the Chakra. I like, introduce one new Shaquetranau because, is a is not arrived now. We arrive in the end of the year. We try to put, the bottle of the Shakra in the fifty two meter down the sea. We make the first study of this bottle, and, we have a special result. And from November, we have, for the market, our first Shakra that is a stay for six months down, fifty two meter down the sea. And this is a very special result. I can't wait to try it. It's coming. Maybe at, the wine revolution in November, you will have it ready then. I hope. I hope to have because come up in October and stay for one month, we see to sleep because for one month, we don't touch this wine. And after we have a panel of test wine with a different chefs and different, sommelier. And after we can start in to sell. And I think that, I arrive with the first bottle in, wire evolution. Yes. Okay. Perfect. If not, I have to be on the panel, of course, but we'll talk about that another time. What would you say would be your biggest challenges in the way you work and where you work? For me, it's normal. This type of work. I'm bored here. For me, the Chiquita is my home. I know that for another people that come here is terrible work here. It's terrible only work, not work, work. But, for me, it's normally. And, for me, it's important, this type of agriculture because maintaining the territory, maintaining the land around the village, and, it's important to maintain this type of work. Really, is difficult to change the method of work because, it's a very steep, the drywall is very high. So it's impossible to change the method of work. Is possible, have the new, the monorail for transport material up and down. And now in the last year, we state to try the drone, forgive the soul for by the drone and not in the shoulder, but, usually around the the, arroic alvetic culture, We don't have many new mechanical methods. So we have to maintain the old method, but, I think that is really the only method for maintaining the land because I see many people that's changed the method of work in the place, a similar me, and that they destroy the characteristic of the wild end of the land. About the dry stone walls, can you explain a little bit more how you maintain them and what it involves? Drywall, is that really important? Because, during the century, the people that live here study a method that is, perfect for me, because, is the method for, some steep place that, without the right stone walls, we can't, use our land because it's more the use method that is perfect for maintaining the water when our rain and four don't go down because, the the high wall that you see in front is not the only one. Behind that there is another one, and behind the two, there is a more smaller rock for the water for the rain. The rain go down and the by the rock arrived to the valley. From the valley arrived to the river from the river. Go to the sea. The problem is that, the people from here don't take that in the future, this method can stop because it is all a system for maintaining all the territory. We think that only to arrive to the ninety six Ditching, but that had one thousand two hundred actor of Grape. Today, we have only one hundred. And the people of the past don't think this one. This one is the problem of today because, in the past, they prefer to have a land in many different place because, if in an area you have a problem in a place, you can make wine from the other place. Today, first, for don't have more problem for from up, from down of lenslight, of collapsed, we have to concentrate on the land. And this one is only the really changer than the past. My grandmother that, finished to work in the land in the ninety seventy, have a land at twenty one different place around the Rio majority. Today, we have to concentrate. This one is the problem because for having my farm, my bigger land of three actor, I have to include the seventy two different property. It's a job only this one. But why? Because, if you concentrate, you restore a big part of territory. Usually, I try to arrive near the rock. In this method, when a rain, all the rain go very fast, to the sea and without problems for the land. If you work and you have it up to you or down to you, part of land that is not work at the after many years, starting to collapse it in your land and destroy your vinea, destroy your land. And after some time, all the maintain go down. We see during the two thousand eleven when a big rain, destroy it to village in Monter Ocean, and, Vernasa. But for me, it's the time that the people have to have to know our work is very important because Vernasa, Montero. So the place that is cultivating stay well. The other place collapsed down to the village. So it's important that dry erase walls, for maintaining, in life, our village. Yes. Okay. Thank you for explaining that because I think it's really important for people to understand. So if you ever ever if people visit Monteroso and they go to the train station. You can see the photographs, right, of what happened there. It's really impressive. Another question, which wines are you most proud of and why? Difficult question, maybe. But No. My beer product is around, the temperature, dop, because it's the really wine I study from the first year that I make wine. For make a a really important line. And so I try to product every year more bottle for our market, and, is, for me, is the really amazing, of the cinque terre wine around Italy around the world because I sell thirty percent of my production around the world. And, after the Chakra. Because Chakra is really important. It's a wine that have an history. You find the documents of a Chakra that have one thousand years age. So is is important for maintaining the territory. The other one for me is important, but it's important only for try that the Chiquitare is very rich, region. It's a very rich, land, and you can meet many, many different kind of wine because all the time when I make a new wine, many people say me, but, you produce nothing. And, but, you have a twelve or fourteen different type of label is more. And I say, no. It's not more because it is really important for explain what, have a a rich place, our rich place because of the different kind of grape, a different type of work is made a very different kind of wine. And this one is very important because, usually, If you go in many region, you find for many kilometers, the same grape. In Chincuero, the same producer, me, I produced a fourteen different type of wine some years, and, is all many different because, you know, the grape that is many different, and, is not popular. I know that, boss called Barola, white Rosese, out of Chinguo, that is not popular. But, it's a really beautiful type of grape. That, today, the people is the normal that, speak of a chardonnier, sovignon, take the same perfume, the same flavor. This one is all different, perform, and different flavor. But, from one part of land to the other part, it's five hundred meter. In five hundred meter, sympathetic change, climate change land, change sun as position, and change the wine. And this one is the beauty for all of this land. Why is it so important for you to revive, the old traditions of the area? And can you give some examples of that? Because I think that, if you want, have your market, if you want to have, success, in this place, is important because, really, Chincuater is a unique place. But there is many people you think that, today, the problem of the cinque terre is not the people that want to make wine, but the people that make wine for job. Because today, we are only in two that we live, only by wine, other pharma is the secondary job based job in free time and is not good for this or for the territory. I maintain, I I make from the first time the tradition of the place because, is really important, maintain the tradition, maintain the identity of a place. And, the first one that, every year we're starting how our harvest is the harvest by boat. The harvest by boat is a really beautiful tradition that's from the ninety seventy that people don't make because, the land near the sea is the first one that is not working. And after I arrived, the moon rail, But, you think, to arrive to the nineteen seventy, all the people that have the grape near the sea go down and arrive in the village by boat, by the small boat that we have here is very impressive work. It's very impressive. All the people can see the videos that is in the YouTube during one minute by the harvest, by both. First time that I see this video, I cry because it's very impressive. And, I think that is, they're really different from other place, this type of a tradition. And it's important for me, maintain and transmit the traditions. For this reason, I teach to the people that arrived from Africa ITs to the to the child of the village because it's very important not only take for me because I'm only one, but for transmit that this, tradition to the other people, And in the future, we can see other people that make my job. Yes. I get that. So that also involves the, which you started recently. Right? Can you tell a little bit more about that? Yes. Yes. This one is a project. I started to think this project in the two thousand fifteen, but, we're starting on the end of the two thousand nineteen because, we have many problem here. First problem, we have to rebuild all the land that that was cultivating in the past, we have to find people that won't work here because it's a really difficult to find people that won't work here because it's the more stronger than another place. I started to collaborate with the foundation, in Laspeza, from Carrispeza foundation, and with the the caritas, a similar, red cross, from the two thousand fifteen, where I teach to different courses for a teacher for a review that the drywall stones or for the, explaining the method for work in the Venus But, I see that, is not a good, two months of course for teach, job. So I write directly. This project is called the We take, one after andals together up Rio Majore altogether between two valleys. So is, a mountain that is not all not work. And so we start in this project with four boys. Every morning, I teach to do this voice. I explain the method for Clear Delander. I explain the method for a build of the wall. We plant a new Venus. And, from this year, we're starting to make the first time of the Shakra. They're really, and from when it is ready, we sell this, Shakra. And the the money is for the school for having new students. Because, in the time that they make the course or in the time that I teach, they take some money every month. Because, if you don't give money, they don't want to work. And so it's important for me because we're starting to have new people for work in the land because in two years, we find eight people the job around the farm, in the Chinguettari. In the same time, we clear land around the village that is very important because we revealed that the wall we maintain the the land around the ability that is more important. In the end, we produce, a wine that, is, about the Shaka dry altogether. We produce about, ten thousand bottle of Shaquetry and all the Chinguitare. So it's very important to maintain this tradition of a wine that have many people like to test this wine and find that that is very special. And so this one is one of the project more important that I made from, from the last ten years, but is it really important for all the territory for me? Thank you. You are one of the very few producers that makes what we call natural wines in the cheek with there. Do you have an idea why? And do you think others should do the same or or what's your idea about that? For me is, from the first time I decided to don't use nothing of chemical before it's for respect for me because I starting to work in the land that I don't think to make the wine in the first time, but I have to maintain the grape. But if you use some of chemical, you destroy you take it directly before because I work every day in the land. And if I use something that is not good, I take for first. And then, the respect for the people that, eat or drink the wine, and after is now is a fifteen years that I near inside my grape, I have the bees. And the bees is very important for all the nectar. And so is my first decision that when I started to work in the land method is not used nothing of chemical or only in the old method. So we make a compost. We make a different type of work every year in a in different place for having new land every time. And, when you open my land, you find many, many animal inside. I know that this method is very strong. And, sometimes, some people that, is not interesting to to the to to the network for spending less money decide to use the chemical. Chemical, you know, that, if you use air, we see the, you destroy the herb. But for months, you know that, if you use, in Italy, we call systemic. It's the product that you give to the plant and enter inside the plant for fifteen days. And so during the fifteen days, if, rain and sun is not a problem because you are covered, but after you destroy the the network around. And so it's very important for me to maintain the the the ambiance around us. And, I think that in the last year, we have a new generation because, now I have a forty five years. So it's not it's not too young, than before. And, I think that, there is, a new generation. The new generation now, there is other three producer that's starting to make the same method, similar me. Other people like to use, AirBC, but I think that in the few the future is the clear agriculture. I hope that the national park, take the decision to to stop many product inside of the national park. But I think that, really, the future is the clear agriculture because I see in the last year, many, many importers, many producer, many, many shop, many, many restaurant want agriculture clear inside of the wine. And for me, it's the future of the Chincrothera, because, it's a it's really a aspect, for for the people that work in the land. If you if you work in the land, you use airbusy, you your pasty seed, you are stupid because, you are not, in the same in another plan part of, Italy of Europe where you are in the car, and, you don't inspire nothing. You are in the land. You give the product by hand, and you give directly. So it's, the only method for, You don't use nothing of chemical for me. I obviously agree with you. Does it maybe also help you, with the expression, of the terroir, making wine in this way? Yes. So when I when I'm starting to make wine, the other decision that, is, I take, that is not popular, and, but is the base for the natural wine. It's don't use East. Because, if you on if you want to give the really terroir. So for me, terroir is, when you find our farm, you find flavor that you can find when you work around my land. If you go in my land in the morning early, you take some performance from a aromatic plant, from a Mediterranean plant, from the land. The land when, yesterday, it's rain. And if you go this morning in the land, you'll find that far from that is especially similar, bonds, similar, the the volcanic rock because our rock is, Arinari. Arinari is an an old volcanic rock. And you find this farm in the land in in the wine. And after you find the salted part, because the the salt you find, everywhere in my land, you find inside the grape, you find inside the the land, you find between the rope over the dry wall, this one is for me is the terroir. And the the terroir, you if you if you give the terroir in in the wine, forgive the terroir in the wine, you you have to don't use nothing of other than the the grape. For this one, I don't use the, from the first time and I don't use the, the yeast. I don't filter my wine. I don't give nothing for clear. And, ever here, we try to use, half, sulfide. And every year, we are reduced. And now we arrive to make a in the in the normally here, we have only one wine that we use as some sulfite inside because I see that, when you use sulfite, you've changed some of the wine. And so I wanted that the wine, when I I I explained over my wine, I prefer starting to explain the season, the clean of the season. And after we arrive to explain my why, this one for me is the tether the terrier. Can you give us an idea how much extra costs you have in time, etcetera, due to the difficulty of the territory to produce your wines? Yes. Yes. There is a a study from, from the University of Genoa, that take, three different regions. Take the, Lombardia, take the Piamonte, and, they say that, the cost for producer, one bottle of wine, is eight time, then, a normally region, same, or ligurian, and the three time more than another place in ligurian territory. Because, I say before, the problem is that here is impossible to use machine. You have to spend about, one thousand two hundred fifty hour for after in a year. So, is, the same debt, in Chiquatara, one person can maintain a maximum one after of grade. Or one actor of territory. And it's really because I'm five actor, and I have two people that work every, day for me and two people for the season. And then, we have people that, make the invoice. So when I, I don't I have to work in another place. So it's really it's a really hard word at work, and this one is the problem for the future because, never people there is people that like maintain the land, but, not spend, money for other people that work. It's really difficult to think that in, for, expanding the agriculture here. We didn't talk about your son, Jacob, but I know you have him involved even though he's really small, and you perhaps hope that he will take over one day. How is that progressing? Is interesting, really, is a him that made the the Shagatrade with his feet from many years because the tradition ones, that is a child that pressed the Shagatrade by foot. So from the two thousand fifteen, I used my son. And, this year, two thousand twenty three, we decided that, I have to explain the first, regular math of the y So, we decided that we made the a small, wood battle of, wide, where we explain the method of, we explain the east of the skin we are playing, the work. We are playing the job for me, the the the wine. And from this year, he he produced the, the his field, first wine. And every year, we give some more of a, for a made of the wine. Wow. That's great. That promises well for the future. Oh, I I think that in one month, we're answering in August, you know, I think before, but and I think that in my page, in Instagram, you can see all all the fault of him that we decided that we make this wine, and we explain with a senior tour which is the the yeast in the skin. So he presses, start in the fermentation. So the yeast produce the hardcore. So heavy evening, we see the level of the ark, This one is the first part that he have to know. But, for me, it's, in the future, he he can take it far. Okay. I think we have to, stop here. Thank you so much. Heidi, it was a really a pleasure to listen to your explanations. Least than these, podcasts can come to see the stream of terror because it's a very it's very interesting place. You must, people. You must. But not in summertime. It's too crowded. Contact me if you want to go and we'll, I'll help you out. Alright. Thank you so much, Heidi, and you all share for this wonderful interview. We are looking forward for Yakopo to take over at some point in the next years to come. So If he's below thirty, we can interview him for the next generation. So why not? So before I end and I close the room, I just wanna say we are on a holiday break in the next two weeks, but we will be back on August twenty four. For another clubhouse, at five o'clock. So it's coming from Asia. Feona Chin will be interviewing, so that's up next for this August. Okay. So Tell everyone. Goodbye. Bye. Bye bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and break the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, Cheaching.