Ep. 799 Stefan Metzner Interviews Clemens Lageder | Clubhouse Ambassador's Corner

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and verona. Thank you, make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to this special Italian wine podcast broadcast. This episode is a recording off Clubhouse, the popular drop in audio chat. This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts like, engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs, and remember to subscribe scribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. My name's Stevie Kim, and welcome to the Italian wine club, the clubhouse Italian wine clubhouse. Yeah. I think it's it's been nearly a year when since I we've started the Italian wine club, and we've been hosting pretty much every week since the get go. So today, You know what the deal is here. Right? Or you know the drill. This is called the Ambassador Corner. And today, it's a fireside chat with Thomas Lagerda, and our guest host is Stefan Metts one of our Italian wine ambassadors. So this is where basically our ambassadors get a chance to interview their favorite producer. So you know that this is on replay, and thank you so much very, very much from the bottom of our heart from our team for joining us at Italian wine podcast because this does get replayed on the podcast. As you've know, what I've been having that we've started in two thousand seventeen and for about twenty three thousand listens. And we've ramped that up very, very quickly to last year, and we've had one million listens last year just on SoundCloud. And believe it or not, in January, we had two hundred thousand listens. And this is all thanks to also the Ambassador Corner, one of our most popular, episodes in and on the Italian wine podcast. So today, I'd like to introduce to you your guest host from Armada Squas, Stefan. Step on. Dodge, EV. How are you doing? So where where are you now? Actually, I'm based in Munich, and right now I'm home in, in my office. And what what is the situation with COVID in in Germany right now in Munich and put together? Well, it is, a little bit very confusing because every Buddhist lot means every state has quite various regulations. Being in the area makes it rather relaxed. So we have no more force closing times in in restaurants. It's all open, but you need to be vaccinated. That that's about all. The rest becomes a a rather normal life. So have you gone back to kind of your normal you know, work life in terms in the wine realm, at least? Are you doing tastings? Are you teaching? Yeah. Traveling much? Well, track traveling is is still a little bit unsecure because the the the regulations from other countries are changing constantly. Mhmm. But I run a WSTT wine school in Munich, and I'm teaching all year long. All my classes can be can be done. So that's very good. And also, I organized the first two tastings, live tastings of well, nearly two years. And it seems that restrictions will be will be lowered, and it becomes more easy to go back to your regular life. So, basically, right now, we are in a, in really comfortable situation where you can say, as long as people are vaccinated and they're wearing the mask where wherever it's needed, you can have a a a normal life, a part of that. Okay. So stephan, for those of you who've not met him, he started his career as a song, and he is like you he's just mentioned that a certified w set educator. He runs a school. It's called Wine Institute Munukens. Right? Perfect. Yeah. Mike German. This is this is the reason why I go to roast. Yes. Okay. And then here in his bio, it says he's been in the wine business for three decades. That kinda makes you sound like you're old. Unfortunately, that's true. I can't deny anymore. Yeah. We're, yeah, we're all dating ourselves. So listen, and, of course, he has very certification. He is like I said, the most important thing about him is that he is, of course, our Via Italian wine Ambassador. He's also, teaches courses for us. So he is a certified Italian wine educator, and he's also, specialist in Valpolicella. So Tell us why you have chosen Clement's La Geda as your favorite producer today. Well, you know, when I started with Tanuta La Geda, that was in nineteen ninety four just to give you an impression of how old you remain. I was already impressed impressed not only by the wines, but also by the way, Arlo is so Clement's father, approached winemaking and and his entire running of the business. And that has continuously developed in an impressive matter since then. And then when Clement's took over, he followed that direction in in a more or even more holistic sustainable approach to winemaking. Continuously improving the processes and actions. And I'm very lucky to have been welcome to his winery several times, meanwhile, and see firsthand and learn about that development since them. Okay. So how long how long did you work at LaGada? Well, I did not work at LaGada. I I took over a a retails of my wine business Mhmm. In ninety four. And Lagera Wines, then already were in the portfolio. And soon after I took over one of my first visits, to to wineries from the portfolio, was one to to, to the Logator winery, which then was run by Allo's Logator. And since then, I'm I'm a I'm a big fan of both the people and, well, as as Logators as people as well as, as the producers and, of course, the wines. So, you know, we always ask this question too because we we try to get a little bit geeky about the, the calls that we do. We have fun, but we we want to be a little bit educational. Right? So what should we expect from this call? What are the learning objectives that we should bear in mind? I think that, we have agreed on I mean, everybody has agreed on when we talk about sustainability, we refer to actions taken in the vineyards and maybe in the cellar, and that is enormously important. No doubt. However, we will broaden the spectrum of sustainability and talk about social sustainability as well. And then we will talk in that context about his new projects, which is, first of all, a project that claimants introduced to the winery, which is the Commet wines, his rediscovery or refocusing on autochtinous old ancient Italian varieties. And we thought that, we do this best by talking about it in the later share, tasting expressions of a blood delay out of his latest comment series that Clement's, previously shared with me. Okay. That's fantastic. So I'm just going to grab a drink. I actually have it in my, my podcast booth already because three of our, colleagues friends came by to celebrate their diploma. So we have three more Italian diploma holders. Congratulations. Big achievements. Yeah. With Luca and Giovanni and, and Nikola. But also Shawan, she she's she's just finished. And, I see Anne there, in the audience, and as well as Renata from our school. So I'm really, really excited about that. Congratulations to them very, very much. Okay. I'm going to leave you. I will shut up, which, you know, that really happens. So you should take advantage of that stuff as you know. And I will, pop by later if there are any, questions from the audience. If there's any time. Okay? Tanna Gassing. Thank you, Steve. Thanks. Alright. So everybody in the audience, thanks for joining us, and thank you, Clement, for being here. Why don't you just, I mean, give us a brief introduction of who you are and and what your bio is so far and maybe together with an overview of the history and the development of your winery. And I'm extremely happy to to join, and I am delighted that you have chosen our wine room, for this, call and for the podcast. So thanks a lot for that. And, yeah, my name is, Tim Mansilajira. And I'm, yeah, as the sixth generation in our winery. And together with my two sisters, I'm, I'm leaving the winery since one and a half years. And, I joined, actually, the winery in two thousand fifteen. He was on the road for, approximately ten eleven years, experiencing experiencing different things. Started actually with sociology. And after my degree, I went to Geysenheim, and then I went to Burgundy, and from that, moment on, I, I, went to New York to experience a little bit also in the market and the business side of of the business. And then I went to Luxembourg to, work for an agricultural agriculture company who was dealing with, also not only wine, but also, food and and biodynamic food and and all the, yeah, on different, products. And then I went and came back in two thousand fifteen. And, yeah, my friend and I, we spoke about our future plans and what we want to, how we want to proceed, and then slowly slowly, my colleague gave over the winery, to me. And then, yeah, and also my sisters joined and are involved now. So, yeah, absolutely about my my bio. Thank you, Clement. So when Alloys finally gave over the winery to to the next generation, and you split it with your two sisters. Which part of the winery did you take over or or which part of the wine production do you focus on? I mean, there's always a difference between, yeah, ownership and and responsibility. And for me, it was important that, of course, in Italy, I think in other parts of the world as well that, in our past generation, it was more common to, give me one way to one person. Which for me wasn't, interesting or not the case. I really felt it, right? And, sorry. This is more. Yeah, looking forward that the old three of us, with, have similar shares or the same shares. So that's from, ownership. And then there's a difference of, of course, being responsible in there. I I, in a similar part than the CEO of the winery, and, I'm more focusing on the production side. So on on winemaking and on on agriculture. And my sister, my youngest sister, she joined in two thousand eighteen and took over from my side the whole marketing and area and, more also certain markets, like, more of the Asian markets, also certain parts of Europe. I'm more focused in air certain areas in Europe and also US and Canada, more and, And then my oldest or our older sister, she is organizing, for example, Suma Suma, which is a a wine fair, which we held in our in our winery, where we have also hundred other wineries from all over the world invited which this year will finally take place again on the ninth and tenth of April. And so she's organizing these kinds of, events, bigger, major events in our life. Lot of things to do. You are a big winery after over. So when you took over, you followed straight on in the footpath of biodynamic wine production. Let's see out at this stage when when you say join the winery. How did you further develop? And is there anything that you can share, what you are planning for the foreseeable future? But many things, because I think, I think biodynamic, it's an ideal where you can get close to, but, would have channel eight hundred years ago. And the world completely changed in the last hundred years. So I don't think that we or let's say, I I think that we need to reinterpret also of bottlenecks, and bring it to the current, situation, the point of life. And so when I joined, I think, I would say that maybe at the beginning, when my father started with Bionymics in two thousand four, or he already did start to experiment in the nineties, but I would say that he converted all our family owned vineyards in fifteen, of fifty five hectares in two thousand four. Would say that at that time, we need to think there were no consultants. There were no there were a few wineries doing by the namek, maybe in Burgundy or in France, but in Italy, it was kind of, yeah, not not many people, knew about it or if special, especially in the practice, in the practice. And so I think they focus more on the preparation. They focus more on reading steiner, understand how and what you thought about how to deal with immunocycles and the plant material systems. And I think, the the generation in my generation, of course, corporations are important. The lunar cycles are important as well, but I think mines generations is can, focus also thanks to the experience of our of the of, my father's generation. We can, focus more on, developing the whole system and to trying to build a holistic approach, and that's when we when we recede us, actually, as a a very pragmatical approach where we we need to break up monoculture. That's the main, goal. And we need to that the reason why we need to break a monoculture is because we need to focus on fertility of our soils. And a good farm a hundred years ago was, he exactly knew that he only was is capable to increase fertility through a huge, through building up biodiversity. So I think that our My approach is more, yeah, was how can we bring in cows in the rose and in the vineyards and how can we bring sheep in the vineyards? How can we work better with compost and then with manure. How can we, dig in deeper in the whole, cover crop system and these kind of things and then, where to, to, see which cover crop in order to increase diversity on different root system and so on. So I think this, the that's, yeah, thanks to the experience and to the more theoretical approach, maybe from a from from the older generation, we were then able to bring it to another step and bring it to a more practical approach. Sounds like approach. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of work. And I'm I'm soon trying to dig in in that holistic concept But before we do that, I I wanna go back. So you said in two thousand and four, you had fifty five hectares. How big is the winery now and how much do you own and how much do you sort of rent? And also how many wines are you producing? I'm not talking volume in bottles, but a different labels. The winery itself, we still have approximately fifty five hectares. So maybe change some some vineyards or, I would from, say, from a family point of view, it stayed the same. What we, developed, was, we, in Alto Energy, it's a old tradition to, to collaborate with small farmers. I mean, a farmer normally has the average approximately one, one point five hectares. So it's a old tradition, the that, farmers sell the grapes on, a trust, base in a certain way. So it's all by handshake. And so we work approximately with eighty, ninety farmers, with some of them, even though it's just a handshake contract, with more more than since more than forty, fifty years. And, so here, there's a little bit more movement, maybe. Especially now that, we decided, or ten years ago, we started to motivate our farmers slowly slowly to work organically and biodynamically. And at the moment, we have approximately eighty percent of those eighty farmers, ninety farmers. Working organically and biodynamically. And we're we set ourselves to go that in twenty twenty five, we want to be, oh, twenty four, we want to be to have all our farmers converted to organic and biodynamic. So all the hundred percent. So that's why there will be a little bit, a little movement because some of the farmers, and and we need to accept it. They don't want to deal with organic or biodynamic farming at all, and we might lose those farmers. But there are certain new ones who, coming up and who are more interested in, in, we are working their vineyards in, or in an organic aerodynamic way. So we're gonna maybe have phone call and, like, saying where yeah, a new farmer might join the club in a certain way. And, so there's a movement, which I would say in total, we have approximately one hundred fifty, one hundred sixty hectares we're dealing we're dealing with. That's, quite a substantial amount of grapes. So how many different labels do you produce out of that? Approximately, with the comment series, which are wines that change from, yeah, every year, actually. We do have approximately forty five. Do do you have a rough estimate of the split between white and red wines? Yeah. I would say that I would say that Alta Anija nowadays is approximately, and I would say the same is for us. Approximately sixty five, seventy white, and the rest is, red, and which actually, not that long time ago, thirty years ago was the complete or forty years ago. It was a complete opposite. The advantage was known much more for for red grapes and, especially Skiava and LaGrain. And now it's, yeah, more known for whites. Thank you. So for those, who have missed the part, I didn't say, which is hard to miss. Anyway, the the Alislagida winery is located in Magrite, which is the southern west part. So it's on the western slopes of alto adige where you do have a slight more moderate climate than in in the northern parts. W therefore, you can have, more focus on on red wines because you have a a longer ripening period and and a and a warmer climate. Than than the far north. Now let's go to the main topic. I mean, everybody is talking about sustainability these days, but in my understanding, when you followed up, you took a different level in this holistic approach to sustainability, you've talked about how to break up monoculture, how to gain the measurements in order to to get the fertility of the soils at least constant if if not even increasing them by introducing cover crops and by introducing farm animals within the vineyards. But there is also a a wider range in being holistic So how do you do the biological and social environment? What what are you doing in in those aspects? Yeah. This is, the question in which we in this year, I think, each developed. I think not it's not only about the the agricultural, part. No. I mean, that's a big plays a big role, and I think it's, that getting more important, not only to save, emission or reduce emission, but especially, we pharma, we have a huge responsibility in trying to find ways in saving. Or, yeah, how can you say it, fixing more CO2 in this in the soil? That's why it's, I think, important to increase fertility and, the humans of our of our units. But then, of course, example, I I don't know. My my father already in the ninety, ninety five startups and building new winery, on a on a, you know, where he only used, alternative energy systems. So no fuel, no, gas, for example, or everything is by gravity, by gravity pet. I think now with with the latest what we did, we finally we moved all our wines in in lightweight glass bottles so far, one hundred fifteen grams, and now we're gonna be using it to four hundred twenty grams. And the tricky thing is that, of course, the consumer still today thinks a little bit about that, or often, you have the feeling that a, a good bottle of wine needs to have a a high weight in a certain way. No. And this is, I think, something, what do we what do we need to change? Because it's it's crazy how much, CO2 and how, yeah, how much emissions you can, reduce in in moving to a lighter glass bottle. So this is, I think, something what what needs to be, also developed. And and do we, couple of the two, three years, we also get rid of the capsula, is that just made with, of of hydro, through heavy metals or out of heavy metal? And it was loaded with a paper, driven. So I think there are many things in order to which you which we need to develop in, to get better and better. And I think, of course, and it's not only it should not only be my intention, but it should also be that's something we are working on, the intention of all our, employees, and that's fine in care we need to, keep also the possibility that everyone, yes, things in the, in the similar direction. I imagine that's quite a challenge. I mean, with a hundred and sixty hectares, it's not you and your father running the entire thing. You you need to have a lot of people following your ideas and and being sort of as well adapted to this developing system, but I also agree that, you know, perfection is not one thing. Perfection by definition in my book is to get a million small things right, and this is lighter bottles and lighter, a more eco friendly, packaging and more less c o two carbon footprint by biodynamic. For those who've never been there, make a make an appointment and go there, the gravitational system, the chilling system, the solar panels, it's really state of the art. And then when they tell you when it when it was built, I'm thinking it is it is quite a leading, a leading winery in in that aspect as well. Now all of these things produce wines more economic more more ecological sustainable. How do you get it economically sustainable as well? I mean, you need to pay the people, and therefore, you need you need to make some money out of it. How does it work? I mean, can can you only just increase prices? That's a good good question. In some way, you'll, yeah, you need to. But, of course, but, for increasing prices, you need to do a good job in also making good wine and then, at the very end, but also market marketing your wine. Yeah. I think it's a it's a long way there where you need maybe to save costs in on on other side on other hands, and, or other areas and slowly, slowly, you know, being able to to afford it. But I think, at the very end, it doesn't really cost that much more in working modernically or organically. I mean, maybe, maybe at the beginning, maybe at the beginning, you need to invest, but I think it's also a little bit life. I mean, if you want to become massive wine or if you want to become you you just talked about the diploma. I mean, what do you what are you doing? You need to invest time. You need to invest money. And and, of course, the risk is that you will never be a master of wine and deployment. So you will never get the diploma. I think that's a little bit similar with our approach in in in winemaking. And I think also here, first at the beginning, you need to learn, you need to invest, maybe give you some some errors, cost money. Maybe need to cost a little bit more time. But I think at the very end, on a long term, if we do the real balance, on a long term, Of course, it's it's easier and it's it's faster to feed, our soils with with the chemical fertilizer, but at the very end, the long term, it's more economically sustainable if we if we if we think differently about about all sorts instead of just feeding them with with chemical fertilizers and that's why I think it depends how you do the calculation. And, yeah, that's a little bit the thing how what we would we had of our approach in the same way. Thanks, Clement. Just as we have talked about part of your, grape suppliers, still organic and part of them is is already changed to biodynamics. So which how much production is is fully biodynamic certified and how much is organic? Yeah. For our fifty five are all biodynamic, then I would say from the, hundred hectares of our farmers, I would say, yeah, approximately twenty are not yet organic or biodynamic certified. And from the eighty, hectares, I would assume that, yeah, maybe half of it from those eighty, half of, you know, not not close half is biodynamic, a little bit less, maybe, and the rest is organic. So that gives you a majority of biodynamicly produced lines. In total, with hours, yes. Yeah. Alright. So, the next subject I wanna turn to is when I first visited, I I didn't realize, but your father already started quite early, as a visionary as he was or still is. He started quite early to think about alternatives also with something that nowadays is in everybody's heads and mouths, but he he was quite early realizing the problem coming up, which is climate change and and also the way of agriculture in your area. We all remember correctly you have long term trials with rather unusual great varieties such as Tonard and others in in your, in your winery. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. Yeah. We're extremely happy that my father was, I don't know. Maybe he got the right sheet in his hand forty years ago. But he got by a coincident interested in climate change. And with a good friend of him, Ryanazi York, who was also, the husband of, Eliza Berta for Gabri, who lived earlier, and he was a, a crazy guy in a certain way, but very, very curious guy. And with him, he started to get interested in, in, dealing with new great varieties because, reading already the first climate models that was It was obvious that, or it was it seemed to be obvious that the climate would, in a certain way, change. And it's just nothing new. I mean, oh, climate change all always changed since the climate hundred years ago, it was different than the climate today, and it for sure it will be different again in the next few hundred years, maybe it should be, well, become, a little bit more radical, maybe, or but there was always a change. And he became interested in that, and he started to I mean, we are lucky now to manage. Of course, we can go high up and build, or plant grape variety grapes, on a higher altitude. The only problem is that talking about monoculture, if you go high up, you also bring among the culture to a more natural area in a certain way where maybe before there was a forest standing. So there are you can go high up and you should, maybe, but there is a certain limit, I think, what we need to respect. And another possibility is maybe dealing with skin and stem contacts, you know, so you can dealing with skin and stem. The tenants you increase the salinity maybe of certain, of certain, great bodies. But then an important one is what he started also forty years ago when dealing with, as you said, grapes from warmer climates as Hassan Marcana from rats or as red or, so Yeah. The different different experiments, with grapes that are more or less coming from, southern parts. And he hoped that one day they would ripe, but maintain an acid a beautiful acidity would Now it's actually that that is the challenge. So thirty, forty years ago, the question was always how can we get our grapes. Right? Now it's a complete opposite. Now it's really how can we and we're talking about the Norris region in Italy. Now it's really how can we keep the the the freshness, how can we maintain the acidity and, and it's it's difficult to produce wines in our community not as being, not having the need to, as to acidify the wine. So it's it's getting more challenging, and especially with great bodies ask you to some, you know, a pinot gringo grapevine. He said, I'm very common and very popular in Atlanta. They are attending much more to be a little bit more. Laby, a little bit more of the alcoholic. And that's a little bit I think what we need to find solution of. And maybe dealing with new grave bodies could be one of them. And so we need to observe that, and and we are lucky to have, experiments and trials that of Tana that are all more than, yeah, older than thirty five years? That's impressive. It's, it's it's a rather very mind boggling concept. I mean, we have the same situation or had the same situation in Germany where we used to capitalize literally eight out of ten vintages just to get to twelve ABV. And now people are talking about the sugarization of masts and and seeing this has this has changed so dramatically just within two decades. Let's say. Yeah. I mean, not only because of the climate. Of course, we are talking about different yields as well, especially here in Adranica. But I would say Simon is a huge factor what why this whole thing changed? I personally strongly believe it's it's not only climate. I mean, in Germany, Viticulture has focused for more than two hundred years in getting it ripe, getting it ripe, selecting the better clones, the early ripening, the high sugar producing, the more, assimilation, the photosynthetic active things, and now sort of nobody has has the older, more relaxed clones available anymore. But that's, a different story. Are are you producing wines out of those uncommon southern varieties? Yes. I mean, we have, two wines that are, like, for good in the assortment, which are, cazon. One is cazon Bianco. One is cazon also cazon Bianco's, more of a congreger, style with a eliminated monsan, and it was San Masan, sometimes I see a fecal shimming off, and the red is, eighty five percent of Tana, which for me is from a from a red wine perspective, one of the most impressive, potential grade mod is quite valid, I think, because it keeps in, a beautiful facility. We harvest it for example, sixteen or seventeen. We harvest it with, potential articles in thirty point five, and and Tana always changes also the color of the stem. So it gets to to more brown color. So that's a good sign that it's ripening, but with the acidity of ten grams, per per meter, we don't even have that on on white. So it's impressive how Tana might be, interesting gray party for the our area. But then we also have, the comets, which is, which is, production we started, two thousand sixteen. And and we have more than one hundred, one hundred, twenty, experiments each year, which we sell, bring in the seller. Experiment could be, she said, new grape varieties, so we were experimenting, or it could be what happens with the Pino Bianco on on the skin and stem for six months, or what happened with the, Shelby. We're gonna be don't solve for everything. I mean, we we're a young team. We have many questions, and we want to try to find the answers. And, of course, we're gonna, do mistakes. And I think a comment for us or, let's say, I experiment. It's extremely important for us to to learn out of those mistakes. And a comment is something what we, yeah, if we it's these are wines that, we select a VV five to six, seven, eight, comments, so experiments, we model, and we, share with our customers, with our partners, and, of course, limited quantities, but a comment from a historical point of view is something that is in the sky, which leads you, which shows you also the the future a little bit better. And in a very similar way we're looking at those experiments, they help you to go to get to know limits. They maybe they help you to go beyond limits and and to help you to make mistakes and to learn all of those mistakes and those comets or those wines, can be, an associative or, Hassan can be something, yeah, something I wouldn't say that these are our best flights. That's not our living and where we try to perfect optimize every single detail, but, there are really wines that are maybe also forgotten for three, four years in the barrel and in the last corner of our one way, and and all of a sudden, we we discover them again. Now, so this is a little bit the approach with those experiments and and all the experiments which we bring them in the bottle as, a comment. Yeah. I I love your your original when you first told me, I literally fell in love with the explanation of why you call them comments. It's like it's like a shining star. It shows you the way, but it's not there always. So the next year, the comment might be a different one or this one might just not be available until it comes around next time. So now going back to to what we promised in the introduction is the interest in new varieties combating, viticultural problems may be climate change or otherwise, such as Tana Duosan Maxim. But also you have, a strong interest in Asian, more or less forgotten, autochthornous auto allergy varieties. Besides plotsily, what what else do you have in Gruntzoni, which is not a tucktonous, it's a it's a it's a cross Mhmm. But what what else do you have in in that sector? Yeah. It's interesting that in in our country, we still have two attachments, indigenous grapevine, these people know what talk about, you know, and that's Kiama and Lagram. But, forty, fifty years ago, we had, blackle, pasoale, and Fruella, a little bit of Portuguese, which is not indigenous in nitrogen, but was very well, developed here. And especially Blattler was a great body that, was very popular, especially also in the ValleZaca area. And then Blattler was, praveller was more in the Murano area, so I don't know how familiar you are without to manager. But, yeah, we had three other indigenous grapevines, and they completely got forgotten. And, they We also forgot that people forgot to register those graves as a grapevine. So it's not even well, now yes, because the Institute, the Linebroke Institute Research Institute started to experiment with those. Again, And so now finally, you can, again, as, of course, not a DOC wine, but you can grow them again since one year. No. But in the last forty years, there were, illegal to plant and to, to make wine out of it. And there are we are lucky enough to where certain fighters like Heinrich mayer from Nusuho, for Blatale or certain small farmers for, Vashnayd Zubahov, for example, or other small small farmers who are Heeping, as secretly those old plants in a certain way now, and finding for the future of those indigenous grapevines. And, we we contacted, certain farmers and also Hainwright Mayo, and we started to get interested in those, indigenous grape varieties because I don't know. Maybe the question was, our question was, what, why have they been here? And what was the reason? And could they be? Would a changing climate be interesting again in the future? Need to think that a Blatella, for example, forty years ago, now everyone speaks about skin, stem contact, or, orange wine on these kind of things. Forty fifty years ago, this was completely normal because every single wine did at least, several hours was kept in, in contact with skins and stems because normally you came, the bull was coming to pick up the grapes in the field, and the bull only came one, once a day, and that was the evening to pick the whole track, and, to trek to him, to bring it to the, to the cellar in a certain way. So the graves that you do, you harvest in the morning, they kept there in the, in the, in the, sh, shiny sun for at least twelve hours. And so already starting to macerate and and ferment on the on the skins and pistents. And maybe this was something that this technique and this modification with the, yeah, with the mechanization that everything is, started to, to change. And all of a sudden, people got rid of skin, of the the ox, and, they they they got much faster to the winery and techniques that changed and also in the in the in the salary you were not using anymore skin in same context. So people forgot the interest in those grapevines, and Blaparte has a very, thin, skin. And maybe maybe it wasn't interesting enough anymore. And maybe also it was, maybe too sour because those grapes where, for the years ago, producing very, acidic wines. Now, but that's why I think maybe bringing the not the oxygen back, but bringing this skin's then contact back, and those grapes back. And and also maybe in a changing climate where those grapes are not that acidic maybe as forty years ago, but maybe now, in a in a future, they could be interesting again. And it's I think, yeah, there there was a reason why there there has been here. And it may might, be interesting for the future to have them again. Of course, someone could also argue and say there's also a reason why they why they don't exist anymore, but that's something what we would like to discover, and that's why we focused on those three indigenous grape varieties and to replant them in our, in our, vineyards. And, let's see how how they develop and and what the experiences we're gonna make. So as I mentioned, you, you were generous enough to share, the latest or the the the newest addition of a comed wine, which is a bloodily with me. And, we've tasted the wine. Could you? Maybe tell us just briefly the the winemaking techniques you applied to that particular wine, and then maybe we we talk about the the sensory profile of it. Yeah. So Blapel is a It's a wine actually that is not yet, are released, and it's not going to be released this year in the coming years. It will just bubble it and we want to see how it develops, with how it ages actually in the bubble. So it might be released next year and two years. It's a very, yeah, I would say, fresh, approach. So it, of course, it was kept on skins and stems here as well for several weeks in order to get a little bit more out of the skin. But it's a very raw version of lateral length. So I was thinking twice before sending it to you because it's still very, low and and unfinished in, from, in my opinion. But as I said, here, the question was how blood to lift, develops when we bottle it? Because normally, we mainly we wait two, three years before but bothering the black hole. And this time, we really wanted to make it, the participants bottle it very early and to, to see, how we develop, develops in, in the in the bottle that thanks for sharing. It's, it's it's a really nice wine. So I would think how do we gonna do this? I just go through my tasting notes so that everybody has an idea of of what this tastes like in this stage. And then we discuss a little further, or do you wanna go first? No. No. Go ahead. No. So I would I would say it's it's an absolute bone dry white wine, and it shows pronounced aromas. There is ripe green and yellow kernel fruits such as apple's impairs. There's some quince. There's quite some citrus notes, lemon, and lemon scale. And in the stage now, it it is slightly cloudy. So there there is, of course, yeast aromas of dough in brioche And there is a prominent note of cider natural unfiltered apple juice and some bruise apple. Is bone dry. It has an integrated, yes, viably vibrant crisp acidity, medium plus body, and a very rich and creamy mouthfeel. The alcohol I would guess from the tasting is at around thirteen. It's moderate, fully integrated, And there's a touch of phenolic grip on the mid palate, which is just giving extra complexity, and is is not too much. Then the finish is very long lingering it is absolutely very youthful, and it shows an excellent balance of all structural components. And, actually, I can't wait to see where this goes over the next four to six years. I think it's, It's a good representative of of what you call a comment within the concept. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm I'm very also very curious how we do a developing process. As you mentioned, I forgot to say that, it's unfills it. So also here, the question is what happens to it with an unfilled of the wine and, with butter unfilled it later in this bottle and how it will develop? You know, the output is very low at eleven. I'm not mistaken. I I also only have how unlabeled, version. But it's quite, quite low. It's strange. It also, for soil and and foul of of producing predominantly, from most most of the time, very low alcoholic, wines. Which is an absolute plus in the future as I think so. Yeah. As as we have talked that now we we are looking into these desugarization of masts and, you know, getting getting those unbalanced high ABVs out of the way and and, are struggling with that now. Yeah. But I think this is also something what we need to learn from the beginning because so far, we were always looking for clones who were producing sugar and producing at the same time certain, yields. And and I think now, and we were going out out there and and look at measuring sugar in a certain way before harvest, you know, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense at all anymore. And there's another possibility measuring acidity and also here in our planet, it doesn't make any any sense at all because sugar is always too high and acidity is always slower nowadays. And so I think also here, our approach needs to be especially different when deciding the harvest time. And this is something what, we need to get better in general. I think, a lot better in defining defining ripeness. And, really, especially, we, we define ripeness to crunchiness. And so there's this moment where the grade is extremely in this crunchy face where, it's like a salad that you would pick you know, and and three day if you put the salad three days in the fridge, it starts to get a little bit. I don't know. It's it's shriveled. So how do you say that? It's losing its tension. And I think this is what we don't want to find in our wines and in the grapes. So you need to point out really trying to find it, like, harvest time to find this crunchiness. I think this is something what general will need to change our approach of of the ripeness in in making on. Yeah. You mentioned yield quite a few times. What what's What's the yielding capacity of of fossil and flourle and Blutterle? Can can you bring them to to a high yield or are they really scarce in in production? It should they shouldn't be that, it shouldn't be that low, to be very honest for swallowing, what we saw, now in the last years was was quite low in our field, but maybe we didn't mistake because we put it on the on the geosystem instead of the paragula. And for so, of course, normally was all of those trees were all, trellised on on, or how do you say that? First on on regular. So maybe I think this could be, yeah, a game changer, and luckily is doing quite okay, from the yields. So, the two also sixty sixty, yeah, fifty five, sixty hex meters per hectare from your system, and Throwella is also a little bit lower. So you you can really make it sort of sustainable while growing it. Yeah. Yeah. So within those twenty twenty comments, can you sort of lift a blanket and tell us what what other wines will be in that range in in the comment section? Yeah. I can tell you. So one is going to be I told you before that about the the friendship with Panacio. And let's see who was, yeah, the husband of isabella Focalohe, and he was, he was a crazy and very, very knowledgeable guy. And he, had his own private selection of three hundred different crate bodies from all over the world really, was flying around the world and collecting branches and bring those branches so I do all of you, and, you know, we have a a plot of his, his collection or his private selection. And there are more than three hundred, great values in that. Red, white, altogether, all mixed. And, in the last few years, we've differently had had a different approach, on the plot. So, last year, we we harvested or we've identified the red grapes as white wines, as a white wine, and the white as a as a red. So long as it can stay in contact. And this year, for example, we're gonna finify the reds as reds and the white is white. So it's going to be a red wine this year. Last year, actually, it was a white wine. So it, this is yeah. And it's going to be called tea because so imagine his, his person, and the review was cold steel. And so it's, assemblage, of, or field blend of those three hundred different gray bodies, right, and white smith, for example, That's one. And, and there will be, a blend of three different vintages of soothing day, and which were kept on hold cluster. Enters and several more. So I can't list everything, but Yeah. Sure. Two of them. So, so, is a PB variety. Right? Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So that that's a new crossing Piwis is a German word, which stands for Pils Wiederstansfig, which is translated into a high tolerance or high resistance to fungal diseases. Just, for those who are not so familiar with souvenir, as there is the last question about within the time frame, having a field blend and making whites in a red style, a red in a white style, is nothing really new. I mean, it it was the very tradition was a field blend. And also you've been mentioning the pergola. So now we have we have sort of several ideas that you follow of ancient techniques that's having ancient varieties which are adapted to the region, having a field blend mix, which is a traditional method. And so my question is to what you mentioned before, do you see more coming advantages of using a paragola system instead of the modern machine adapted, Guyo, or called on training systems? Yeah. Absolutely. And, of course, you need to keep on track on the on the yield because that will actually produce way too much, grapes. So you need to cut them down using these behind. But I think from a climate, perspective, it can be very interesting and because of two, arguments. One, it gives you shade. To the grapes, of course, so to protect a little bit more the grapes. But and I would say the more interesting argument is because it has, It has, of course, more, wood or, let's say, old wood. So the bagua less, a trellising system, which is higher, and, of course, longer. And, because of that, I think the padua perhaps the possibility to where you can increase, again, the quantity, the yield, but without immediately losing quality. And I think on the video system, if you want to increase a little bit of yield, you you suffer immediately the the quality, suffers immediately. And I think in future, I mean, and I remember when we when when I started to work in the wine in wine business, fifty years ago, on my first trips. Everyone was so proud saying, yeah, I only produced thirty thirty five hectoliters from this, vineyard and and and so on. Everyone thought that if you're producing thirty thirty five hectoliters from Hackurts, must be a mind blowing wine. And it was maybe the case, but the problem is I think in the future with a change in climate and we already used the yields, used in the past, the grapes are getting too concentrated, but I think that's why we should aim for a little bit higher yield. I don't want to go in the other direct, extreme direction, but at least a tiny bit, we need to increase it to have more and balanced, concentration and not too concentrated grapes because then it would be used to have two alcoholic wines. And I think increasing the in the the use a little bit could be in parallel, I could be interested in them. Thank you, Clemens. We are about close to our finish time where we have a few more minutes. And, I would say thank you very much for for all your explanation, and thank you for sharing all that insight into your winery. Thanks for having me in your home. And Chang thanks for sharing sharing all of this with the Italian wine podcast. If there is Thank you very much. If there is any questions from the audience that might be interested or questions from Stevio like our joy, That would be a good time now. Okay. So very great job, you guys. Thank you so much. That was so exhausted. And very, very complete podcast indeed. We've learned so much about Lagerda and his philosophy of wine, making. I will entertain a getting kind of late, but I will entertain one question if anybody has a question. Like, like, do you have you got a question for alloy? Actually, I have one curious question because I was also reading an call engraved collect collective, about, your interview. Clement's, you mentioned that you meant you you met Rudolph. You you knew something about this, but we just started okay. So sorry. Here's my question. When did you really start really wanting to pursue about myodynamic wine, point making? I mean, personally? Yes. When I studied sociology, during my sociology studies, and I wasn't so sure if I want to join their winery at that time. And, we were extremely happy that our father gave us a possibility to do whatever we wanted to. And then if we wanted, it could come back. And, so during the my sociology studies, I started to read it, and it's it's impressive. It was extremely difficult as well, and maybe, you know, for sure, I didn't really understood what he was saying. But, yeah, it was interesting impulses, and I think that's a little bit how I see Balen and the ideas of what does Shannon, more as impulse, more as ideas. And, I mean, he he talked also a lot and a lot of heavy stuff. So yeah, you need to take certain things out of this series, but, in my opinion, not to not exaggerate it in a certain way, but it triggered me. And that's why I, yeah, I I I I started to to read more and to, yeah, to where you get to learn a little bit more about it. Okay. Great. I think that is all. I'm going to wrap this up and close-up the room. I just want to remind everybody. Thank you first of all, Thomas, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. A great job. And, I just want to remind everyone. Next week, we're going back to the six PM slot, our usual time. Julian Farker will be interviewing Amanda Courtney. The week after that, Ashley Howe with Peluka Proietti, and then Victoria Cetje with, Michael Schmelsa and Fannie Brole with federico Junini and Tatifa Sabapiana Wayne Young with, the Rapuzzi brothers on and on and on. So we have We have a complete, calendar up to April, all set to go. So you hope you can join us, and don't forget to subscribe to timeline podcast, and have a good night, everyone. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, email, IFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, teaching. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. 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