Ep. 808 Rob Miller Interviews Diego Corradi | Clubhouse Ambassador's Corner

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and Verona. Thank you, make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to this special Italian wine podcast broadcast. This episode is a recording off Clubhouse. The popular drop in audio chat. This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts alike engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. And remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Hello, everybody. My name is Stevie Kim, and this is the Italian wine club on clubhouse. And today, we are here with Diego Coradi and Rob Miller. I'm so excited about this session today. I just wanted to say something. First of all, this is called the Ambassador Kona because this is where the ambassadors, Italian wine ambassadors, get a chance to interview their favorite producer today, for example, Rob Miller with Diego Karadi from Pra. I just wanted to give a shout out to our via community at large because we've started this. We've started the Ambassador corner. First of all, I started this, Italian wine club in February. So not too long ago. And then in July, we started to do the Ambassador corner mostly because I wanted to give more time, more, I guess kinda, you know, I always have this kind of romantic idea of, you know, being the matchmaker bridging the gap between Italian wine producers and and the rest of the world. So I thought why not have it represented by the Italian wine ambassadors at large? Him and why this is Cynthia. Chaplain, one of her own, interviewing Alberto Tasca. And now we are at the twenty seventh episode of the, Ambassador's corner. So Kudos to every single one of you who has participated as the the interviewee and as well as all the producers. In fact, you know, thanks to you guys, Italian wine podcast. As you know, this gets replayed. Although there are just few of us here today, it gets replayed on the Italian wine podcast. And it's been hugely successful. So successful that last year, first of all, if if I can give you some context in two thousand and seventeen, we've started the Italian wine podcast, of course, with Monte Walden. And we had twenty three thousand listens in the entire year. And last year, two thousand fast forward, you know, four years and we reached more than one million listens just on SoundCloud. So this is really, really, because everybody has been very incredibly supportive. And in fact, the top ten listens for last year was the number one was the it was another clubhouse session I did with for the Japan wine market but with one of our ambassadors, Roddy Rotner from Japan and then, the second most listened was Jill Gordon Smith with Roco toscani And then Cynthia Chaplin number five with Ilaria Takquez. Number six again another ambassador, John Luca querlo. Number seven, Jody Hallman with Enrico Delapiana. And and then one of her ambassadors on the voices Rebecca Lawrence, interviewed Victoria Cheche. So, she's also known as I love her handle slutty spaghetti. I love I love that. She's she has a sense of humor. Anyway, so I just wanted to give a shout out to the via community because it's it it really is a journey and, I really appreciate that everyone has contributed in their way. Okay. So I'll shut up now. Let's start this. I'd like to introduce, Rob Miller. Chad Rob. Jiao, Stevie. It's good to know. Where are you now? Where are you? I'm I'm still the same part of the world just outside of Toronto and Canada and Kitchen or Waterloo is the town. Is it freezing? It you know, it's a balmy minus twelve degrees right now. It's, the warmest it's been here in a few weeks. So yeah. Did you say minus twenty? Minus twelve minus twelve. But But that is that Celsius? That's Celsius. Correct. Holy crap. That's like Russia. That's what's siberia. Is that is that you'll have to, maybe bring Via over here in the in the summer perhaps. Yeah. It's it's gold here and it's gold here in the winter. So, Rob, it says here that you've been working over twenty five years in the beverage industry. That makes you sound really old. Yeah. You know, and I'd I have to, agree with that. I'm, I'm, a lot older than I act. How was that? Okay. So, of course, you were, one of the top sommeliers, and I still remember when you were acclimated as the v Vineital International Academy, you passed the exam, and you nearly killed me I think I think we had a little private dance on stage. I will always forever remember Rob Miller. So, now what are you up to now? Doing a number of things. I'm I'm teaching at the local college. I'm working with, with a wine importer still a company that called the What are you teaching? Wine and food pairing. It's for a separate course. It's just, two days a week. So it's a it's a lot of fun. It's very exciting. It's very interesting. To engage with younger wine drinkers or people as they're just starting into wine. I know myself at that age, I definitely wasn't, consuming wine. It wasn't my beverage of choice, so it's great to be able to show them what's what potential there is and bring them over to our side of the beverage industry. But how how old are they? Are they college students? College students. Yes. So nineteen twenty. In fact, we we do have, a few students that, are only eighteen So not even old enough to to drink here in Ontario, but, they still participate in their they're still quite eager to learn. Most of them are our culinary students. So they've got, an interest in enthusiasm for the hospitality and restaurant industry. So you, work for the Vine agency, which is an importer and a distributor. Right? What kind of wines do you import? Correct. We work with, you know, we we work with about seventy wineries around the world, primarily focused on California, France, and Italy. In fact, Italy makes up about just so I'm probably over a third of our portfolio, which is super exciting. In fact, it's it's what, you know, inspired me to to head over and take the the via program way back. So what give me some of the some of the, wineries from Italy. You inquire? From Italy, we've got, we work with, with Verna in Barolo. We work with, Vida Romans as an example. We work with Pra, with Diego and Graciano. Uh-huh. Work with, Paul Manuel going further south, you know, Ruka Fiori inumbria. We work with, let's see, Bishi in in Verdicchio. Homento Castanza. You guys, I know we visited there, on the, geez Oh, my god. What a beautiful, beautiful estate? The go it's a gorgeous place. We're we're super, super lucky to work with them. The wines are incredible as well. Yes. Absolutely. We love that. We love that place. And what about this, new agency? It's it's something of your own. It's a new initiative. It is. Wine imports. What is that all about? So the road is, my, my business partner, Megan Ridgeway, and I, just started acting. One of the there have been some silver linings since the pandemic began here in Ontario, and some of it has been some loosening around the rules to importing wines, part of the, we do work under a, you know, with the the LCBO, the the the AGCO, the government imposed retail distribution that all wines come into province through. So, before that, it was fairly prohibitive for new importers to start, but they've, they've made it a little bit easier for us to do. So so we're looking at and working with wineries, under kind of two main umbrellas. The first is wineries that are very eco conscious, you know, organics plus, whether that's biodynamic, whether that's regeneratively farm producers. We're also looking at working with you know, and bringing some diversity into our industry. I mean, you had, you had mentioned it earlier. You know, the, our industry has a lot of old white guys like myself. The, the majority of our, wineries that we're working with are either female owned. We have a couple of LGBTQ producers. We're currently working with the only, native American owned winery, that actually, has a, you know, a member of their tribe that makes the wines we're working with a a Japanese couple that's farming biodynamically in New Zealand trying to bring a little bit more, a little bit more diversity to the spectrum. Okay. Great. And by the way, I just want to plug, Rob Miller's interview. He was interviewed by Cynthia Chaplin recently, and that's a recent episode. So, check that out if you guys get a chance. So let's move on to today's call. So Robert, we always ask why, now I realize, of course, you import, Pra, but why did you select Diego Curada as your favorite producer? Yeah. That's a, you know, it's a great question. And, you know, when I one of the it wasn't my first Italian focused, or post Italian wine focused trip, but, the one leading rate up to, my time at, at beer, my first time at Via, I had stopped in at, at Project a couple of days before. And, Diego had set it up for me. We had, there had been a a bit of a miscommunication, and I had showed up on a Sunday, which was the the wrong day, which was fine. Graciano was super, gracious. Unfortunately, his, his English is as good as my Italian. So it was a lot of head nodding at the time, but, Diego's partner in crime at the Windry Valentino was able to come by. And, we'd we had just such a lovely time, and I'd always been a fan of Pra since that time, you know, Diego and I have, spent a number of times together whether at in, Verona, whether it was out in, in Alba, as well as when he's, been able to visit us here in Toronto. So, not only do I like the wines and love the wines, but I look at, I considered Diego a friend as well. So I thought it'd be great to, to chat with him and to catch up and see what he's been up to over the last couple of years. Great. I'm looking forward to the conversation. And so what should we expect in terms of learning objectives from from your call today with Diego today. Because, you know, we'd like to get a little geeky here at Via. Right? Of course, we do. So I'm I'm hoping that, you know, people that aren't familiar with the winery, and as I do believe many will be. It's, it is, wherever on the kinda smaller side of the production spectrum, yet incredibly high, high quality. So I'm hoping that people can learn a little bit about who they are and what they do. And also just be introduced to the fact that they're, they're making some stunning, red wines as well. So I think that'll be a key part of the, a key part of the conversation as well as, some of the new projects they're working on. Okay. So it works like this. I usually now shut up which is you I I know. I know amazing or to believe, but I'm going to now give the floor to you. And so you take it away, and I'll come back later if there's time for q and a in the end. Okay? Thanks, Stevie. That was great. Awesome. Thank you. Well, welcome, everyone. Thanks for those that, that did tune in. I know we're at different time zones around the world. It's kind of, middle of the day here. I'm outside of Toronto and Canada, as I said. And, you know, it's far enough into the day that I thought. You know, I'm gonna pour myself a glass of wine to go alongside the the rest of the afternoon. So thank you, for joining us, and, I look forward to chatting with for those of you that haven't met Ego before. Diego is the export manager, of, asean Agricola Graziano Pra. You've probably seen him if you've been to, you know, you have attended Benidly If you've been to Opera wine, they are, a mainstay there as well. And Diego's always there, brightly smiling and, introducing and pouring the the fantastic wines that he represents. So welcome, Diego. It's great to hear your voice again. It's out of. It's out. Thank you for the invitation. Oh, thank you. And thank you for accepting the invitation. That would have been worse that you said you said no. So it's okay. It's, you know, it's eight PM. I'm quite angry, but It's okay. I can wait. Well, you're I usually don't eat dinner until nine or ten o'clock over there anyway. No. I I'm busy. Yeah. I hope guys okay. And it's really like, no. It's funny. Of course. It's great to to talk to you. Finally, it's been a while. So now definitely thank you for for having me. Yeah. And I hope that we get to, we get to catch up in person sooner than later this year, but we'll see how things how things play out. So you joined you joined, Gradiano pro right out of university. You took a you spent one day, a year in Australia after that and then came back. Would, had you did you have aspirations work in the wine industry while you were in school, or what was your what was wine, what part of your life was that growing up? Okay. Well, let's say, first of all, I well, I grew up in Salavenna, which is a small town in, Balpantena. So I'm, originally from verona. My family is from here, and Valentino is just next to Balpolice Ella. So, let's say that, in my small town, the the main business, while more was more, you know, mar marbled industries, but, but, yeah, let's say I was close also to Bertani and, of course, in the middle of the wine culture. More over than I actually did my studies were were more about, classic studies in the high school. And then, languages and and commerce, I got a degree and, and as you said, I I spent here in Australia. So at that time, honestly, I didn't really know yet what know, what to do, and it was not really the economy. I'm talking about, you know, two thousand and nine, two thousand and ten was, not as good of them. And, of course, one of the things that was really I I really wanted to do is, like, an an experience abroad. So I I spent a year in Australia working in restaurants, backpacking, mostly working in Sydney. And then moving to Perth on the other side. So, I stayed there for a few months. I had more, you know, I at that time, you know, I was Australia was really expensive, still is, actually. So I had the sense also to travel a bit, and I traveled also in, I went to I remember really, very well. My travel to, Margar retriever, in the southern part of, West Australia. So I And in that occasion, I visited actually luing a state. So I was not really into one at the time. So, it was, actually amazing. Actually, I still, you know, to I remember driving in the forest and then, right after the forest, the vineyards started and the beautiful winery. So when I I came back, I was, definitely, I studied really to to search and to look for a job in in the wine industry. Let's say that I I basically started, I mean, sending just a CV, you know, I went to the the Italy website And I took just the the names of, some wineries. So and I started to send, like, CV starting in, of course, from my area to Suave. And, yeah, I did some interviews. I mess some people, but, you know, it was two thousand eleven. So it's it's a while ago. And, I got lucky that at that time, a girl, a German girl called me so I did an interview at Graciano because at the Pro winery, because at that time, actually, there was a German girl working there. And, and she was the one actually taking care about almost everything at the winery talking about, you know, office stuff, invoice, customers. And, and I realized that, you know, I I said, okay. You know, I I'm gonna start and I'm looking forward, you know. And and I realized after one month that she was leaving within a two months. So, it was everything was new to me. I was it was actually my first, really, you know, job here in Italy, you know, proper job. And, since there, basically, I've never left. Graciano, really, after one month, I was in China for the first tour of the Trebikiri and, you know, and it's been already eleven years almost. So, yeah, long, long time, long time. And, and, so let's say that it was a matter of also lack, But, at the same time, you know, I had that sense in ten years also to, to experience a little bit of everything that is happening, that is going on, at a family run company. From, you know, from the administration also, you know, since, things going on in the vineyards in the cellar. So that definitely helped also to build my my background. So I could definitely follow-up to to get a calendar that also gave me the sense, you know, to study. I mean Yeah. And learn how in that opportunity to work with someone as as respected as him is, you know, I mean, that's just, that's such a a fantastic, door opening for you, especially coming coming into the industry and coming right out of college, and the fact that you're still here or you're still with them, you know, going into eleven years later says quite a bit. So your I mean, your role is export manager, but you I know you wear a lot more hats than that. What, what else do you what would your a normal week look like for you? It's a really dynamic gentleman. I mean, really the first month after this girl left, it was, like, I was freaking out because, really, I was, like, sending samples, making, you know, transport documents invoices talking to all our customers because, still at that time, I mean, we were exporting, you know, eighty five percent of the production. So dealing with the, twenty to thirty markets, and, you know, today are forty five. But, you know, over the years, then, of course, we hired more people. Now we are in four, people in the office. So there's someone taking care of the administration, just invoicing. Documents, some someone taking care of the social communication, you know, welcome people at the winery. And, so today, let's say that we, my colleague, Valentin, I take care of, of the of our customers, so extra European markets. So that's why I say it's easier to say export manager, let's say. And this take, let's say fifty percent of my time. The rest is, you know, I I work really side by on a side of with Graciano every day. So we, of course, we if we investments, you know, if we have to buy new machineries, if we have to buy some new vineyards, hiring people, suppliers. So it's kind of, you know, supervision of the office and, and, and, yeah, expert manager, I would say, but It's really, you know, I do, like, fifty different things at the office every day. So it's very hard to say, you know, I plan the bottlings. So this is what I'm doing this period. I mean, two thousand twenty two, started like crazy, of course, because we also had our COVID issues. And, now we have this, you know, supplying issues, logistic issues, and, we are starting And custom, actually, the markets are starting as well. So in the very start, generally looked a little bit slow, but now everything is, you know, it's starting at the same time. So we what I do is basically in these days is, talking to our customers and, managing also with, especially with supplies, the previous bottlings of the new Vintages coming. Oh, great. Well, that's exciting. Yes. It's, it's somewhat similar here in Ontario. In fact, we're we're still in the midst of a, a moderate lockdown restaurants have been closed for the month, but are are finally reopening, on Monday. So, yeah, it's a slow start slow start to the month, but it's a a promising outlook to hopefully, the spring and onwards, we'll see it's so hard to predict, you know, more than a month out these days. Yeah. World world changes as it is. But, and I guess maybe we should we should back up a little bit and talk a little bit about the winery now. Gradziana start or he started the winery back in the the nineteen eighties. And, the family was was growing for a while at both his father and grandfather were involved, if I'm correct? Yeah. His father, grandfather, and the previous generation were more involved in the the, grapes growing. So let's say that the prize is a very, you know, first of all, is in our dialect. Means, you know, in Italian is like is a valid word. We say. It's like, it means like a garden field. So it's, a family probably also involved in in agriculture for generations. And especially from the in the town is very popular in the town of Monte Forteda Pona. So we are in the hurt of the Suave area, next to the the classical hills. And the, you know, the the previous generation used to farm vineyards, like most of the families still do today, but, like, you know, in the sixties, in the seventies, that was the main business. In the area. Consider that, you know, that the family, Graciano is the third brother, and the, like, a family used to sustain itself at the time with, let's say, you know, two or three actors, you know, that could, pay the bills. And, and so, you know, his father, his grandfather, they used to sell grapes garganek, especially to mainly to bottling companies, so consider. Yeah. In So Ivel, let's say that, the last century, especially till the eighties was mostly about, you know, cooperatives and the bottling companies And, and, he's the the true brother of Graciano since, the father unfortunately passed away when Graciano was very young, were already involved in, in the grape growing. So Graziano decided to, to make the next step and start studying analogy, in Conelliano, that was, like, the most important, you know, school of, analogist in Treviso at that time. And, that was in the seventies. Right after school, he decided, you know, to start making his own wine, and that was also because of a necessity at that time. And, in nineteen eighty three, precisely, is the first bottle of suave that he made. So he's starting from the family vineyards with, his brother, Sergio, in the very start, taking care of the the vineers, and he was taking care of, of the wine. And, and the eighties is a very interesting period. I think, in Italy, I will say, because, at that time, you know, we we had that during the eighties, also the methanol scandal. The time, you know, some producers start focusing really on the quality of the wines. You know, at the time, the the high quality wine was just a French wine in the eighties. Griano, he he says, you know, he, that he didn't realize he was part also of a new generation of winemakers. He, at the time, Veronelli was the only guy, one guy the only important, let's say, one guy, the the the first to start giving ratings. And, but at the same time, also slow food that was, was starting, and Graciano, was part of this group of guy of, absolute food that they were meeting in restaurants, talking about, you know, food quality. People had really started. Was starting to have the necessity also to focus to start focusing on the quality of what they were drinking and eating. And from here, I actually the, let's say that the three, you know, the three words also, you know, from slow food that are part still today of our philosophy that are, you know, the beauty, the right, and the clean. So food like wine to be, of course, clean, so sustainable, right. So, of course, that, you also have to take care of the people that are involved at the company and the beauty because beauty is also one of our main part of our philosophy is the beauty of the place where you work, the beauty, of course, the the beauty of the wine. I mean, the wine has to be good. Also. And, also taking care of, of the Venus, but also of the area that, where you work. And, this is something that, Graciano, I mean, you came to the winery, you see how Graciano, you know, you know, he spent the the old day, especially springtime, summertime. I mean, taking care of, flowers. We plant trees. We try, you know, always to to be in a very, let's say, beautiful environment. So from there on, Graciano, you know, that started this story. I mean, with the suave, starting from the hills of suave, so the classic region, and focusing, especially on the on the local variety of Garganaga and the Trebiano Disoave. But let's say that we make for Suaves today and, the main part of the actually, three of them are one hundred percent Garganaga. And this is, where Graciano, of course, was focusing on since, the very beginning, going the hills, decreasing, the yield, the product because gardenica can be also very generous, varietal. If you farm gardenica in the flat land on a rich soil, it can really give also, quite big amount. So, on the on the hills in the classical, on a volcanic, little bit poorer. So the the production is much less, but the quality and, and the potential is, is much greater. Yeah. Very much so. And I think it's it's only in the Monte Grande where you include a little bit of Treviano Diswave, and if I'm correct. Right? Yeah. Exactly. I mean Treviano Diswave is the second local varietal and, it's a very traditional I mean, the suave, traditionally, there's was only, like, a small percentage of Trebiano the suave, which is the same DNA as you know of, Verdicchio. Actually, we don't know if, we brought Vardicca to Marco, maybe they brought it here. But, traditionally in the old times, farmers also used to, to put some ver verdicio, Trebio de joabais, you know, where, you know, maybe a organic vine was dying and they were substituting the the vine with the with the Trebiano D'SUave. So it was actually a little bit mixed in the vineyards. So you always had, like, in the old time, so there was also sometimes this blend. Garciano planted the Trebiano di suave, especially on the hill of Monte Grande, which is one of the oldest avenues from the family, and the one actor of Trebiano di suave that we use and the is the course, the base of our single vineyard, Monte Grande, that we started to make in, in nineteen eighties, and nineteen eighty eight precisely. Okay. Now you're you're mainly known as a white wine producing winery, but you make some Absolutely, incredible. And that, you know, I'm I'm I'm definitely biased, but, I think one of the the best, just straight valpolice there is, as well as a, you know, your your Repassa your, Emeroni Delval Pollachella. When did they when was the move into red wine making? And what was the, the impetus for that? Yeah. That was, something that came after, of course. So one of, you know, Graciano was like, you know, in the we are talking about, you know, the nineties, end of the nineties when, Graciano, one of the dreams of Graciano was also to approach to starting to make an amarone. He but he wanted to find also the, you know, the land and that could better express his style of amarone, you know, that, our wise and ours to Alice are always very on the, fresher expression of the varietal. We don't do a lot of, you know, skin contacts or malolactic on the Garganica. We are always very Also, the elegance is probably, you know, something that you can always find in our wise. So, that explains also something of Graciano's taste. He, wanted to approach Valicella, but to find also a land that could express his idea of Balicella. In the nineties, the trend was, generally to make, you know, very, large amarones, very, big wines, that the Graciano was not really into that. So He had the chance to buy, in two thousand and one this land called the Morandina, that is basically, you know, Valpolicella. We, we found he found this land in the eastern part part of Balpolicella. So not in the classical. So the eastern part of Valicella, Valdilazi, precisely, is more a land of, you know, in the nineties was like the newer Valicella. Land of, you know, new producer that we're growing, at that time and, on Guyo training system concentration, concentration. But, when he found his land, he found it on the highest elevation. On, five hundred meters above the sea level. So let's say, the eastern part of El Pollizela Vadilla, especially is, colder than the classical, and we are on the limit, let's say, of, I will say, therefore, the grape growing on five hundred meters. And he planted there on a virgin soil, with a really big, part of limestone is basically all the area is on limestone soil. He planted the traditional varietal, Corvina Corvina, Rondinella, and, and, and, two thousand and six is basically the first vintage of our rest that As you can see, our eyes really focus not only on the on the fruit, but also on the other, you know, the other characteristic that that of, of our varietals, Corvina, Corvina, Corvina, which is the pepper, the spice. That are also very, typical from our varietal. And, at this altitude, in this area, are even more probably emphasized. So, it started with the style of Valpolicella that I will say were totally out of the trend. So I'm talking about wines in a very dry style, lighter bodied, with a lot of, you know, very clean, a lot of finesse, but very spicy. Sometimes, a little bit green, with, more than, you know, cherry is the typical fruit of valpolicella when you taste our valpolicella especially, which is, in the one who, you know, the fresher expression of the place is, you know, pepper and spice, very spicy, sour cherry, red fruit, so sometimes even verifying that direction, you know, And, and the scene, the previous vintage is, honestly, was, really tough to sell, you know, that style of, of rest, because, you know, everyone was used to more, you know, more, like, fruity rounder wines. But, Graciano, at the same time, really wanted to, you know, he he says that if he wanted to start, you know, in Valpolice, at least he wanted to give also terua expression. So let's say that, this one is really carry a definite, a definite really, terua, expression and identity. I will say. Well, I think that's that's a great descriptor, and you know, it's it's amazing how ahead of the ahead of his time he was with that, you know, as those are the the wines that are in fashion, that are in in vogue right now, the lice or a lighter fresher more savory red wines, you know, that, even now, you know, when I when I pour the valpo, a cello around or when people experience it for the first time, they're pleasantly surprised by, what a fresh vibrant energetic wine this is. And, it's It's just a it's such an amazing, lovely young wine to drink. So, of course, we've had, we've had two fairly challenging years behind us. There there seems to be some light at the the end of the tunnel, hopefully, but What has been, what have been some of the biggest impacts on the winery in terms of, sales, external sales you had mentioned earlier that, you know, you're exporting about eighty five percent. So I know there's been Obviously, supply chain issues. And of course, you know, tourism as well. I grow tourism. I know mix up a big part of it too. So what have what have been some of the biggest challenges you've had to to face and how have you overcome them? So, well, let's say twenty twenty and twenty one were, let's say, quite different for us. Of course, twenty twenty when everything started was crazy as for everyone, you know, that we work, as we do with, you know, all our today, we're working forty five markets. I would say, and all our importers are, you know, for the ninety five percent are you know, they are importer and distributor, and we work with restaurants and, wine boutique or shops, but, not with the large chains. So the only exception is, are the monopolies. So, like, north of Europe and, of course, Canadian monopolies as well. There, so that actually helped let's say in terms of sales, I mean, because, of course, the monopoly shops never stopped. So, they increased the sales there, on the other side, of course, But, let's say that we had a different moment during two thousand and twenty. We really, during the summer, we went much better. And then, let's say in the end of the year, we could barely paired the the the two thousand and nineteen, that was, was a great result, honestly. Of course, well, tourism, I mean, is not really a touristic place. I mean, it's, you, you go to Monte Forta del Ponte if you wanna visit the winery, so you need to know the winery. You have to go there. So that definitely was affected to resend the winery. But, is still, I mean, is, you know, just maybe a small part of our business still today is affected. I mean, we were, planning, you know, to also to open and agree toismo or to do, you know, something more and, in our vineyards, but, that is something or plans that we are skipping. So, let's say the twenty twenty was more or the, like, everyone where we had the time, you know, to stop and think about what we were doing. So, it it was a stop that to have us also to to plan, I think our the future somehow in terms of, work in the vineyards, especially where we also started over the organic certification that we are already the organic certified. Also, a program with the biodiversity. That is something that is still going on in our vineyards. And, so, yeah, that was, let's say, two thousand and twenty. Two thousand and twenty one, I have to say that in February, everything restarted. And, it was, in terms of sales, it was, like, the greatest year ever, let's say, fortunately. And, and also some very interesting new trends, I will say. So I I think something new that, is starting and something that we actually are investing on is, for example, we are making stock, for suave, each vintage of our cruise, And, we are starting seriously to make a business of selling verticals of a Swave. That is something that I think is gonna be very interesting for the future of the, the denomination over the over the UAG, of course, and the new crew system. Well, that's, that's very interesting. And are you doing this right across? I mean, I've, I I always think of these, the entry level, the auto suave as being a more concern in the or consume in the first three to five years, but the the Monte Grande almost demands, you know, five plus years. The, you can make that similar argument for the Sephorte as well if you can hold it that long. Are you looking to do this, you know, these verticals with, in particular, with particular, with particular crews or, right across the board? Well, honestly, honestly, all our YC have really all the suave's we are making really we we taste after years. Of course, we have to, to make a decision in Montego one, the, the most representative, probably, of our suave's. So we started making in twenty fourteen, especially. I mean, we have libraries going back to the nineties. But, if you want to, you know, to start selling these wines, we started to build stock from two thousand and fourteen, which actually is one of the greatest meetings actually to to taste, right, right now. And, I think for the future, just because it was a very interesting vintage in, an extreme vintage, but very interesting also for for the future. So Monte Grande, definitely, cool, San Antonio. We are also doing a stock, especially for Max. So we do, like, manuum. But, what we would like to show is actually just the the auto so for example, also during the the next top of the line, we we're gonna show, not really a single vineyard days, but our auto, two thousand and fourteen. Screw cup, stalvin looks, what we use, and, and you really definitely see there the the the aging potential of Garganaga, which is, when it is made, the one is made properly is, is amazing. Oh, that's, that's very interesting. And again, you know, my experience with auto is that it's usually something I've consumed in it. You've I haven't been exposed to many older ones, so I look forward to to trying those. Wendu, and just on a side question when did you switch auto over to, stalvin or screw cap enclosures from corks? So the first vintage was two thousand and nine. So, Graciano was really into that. The thing is that on the side, you know, we, you know, as, I think most of the wineries, we have been fighting, you know, against the core issues for, for all, the history of all our story history, let's say. So from time to time, you you have, you know, some lot or some problem with some, pork, some natural pork. So, Graciano started with a small amount, with the screw cap. So where we started, actually, we, of course, selected, like, the this q cap that could better fit and, the best q cap that he found. But the two thousand and nine was the first vintage. We still have a twenty ten auto in our library. And that was the one that actually, changed the, really, you know, our mind a few years after, you know, just tasting and retasting auto with the serving a screw cap and the auto weed cork. Put on a side, really, we did in two thousand eighteen. It was the year when we decided we, we, we were really, we are really gonna take the direction of the screw cap. We started also, you know, to to battle stafford and Monteganda with the screw cap. And, because when we see that actually the just the auto was, the, you know, the aging, the aging was, just, consistent in all the battles and all the battles are still today two thousand and ten auto showing great. So, on the other side, I have to say that generally the cork issues that we are having especially in these past years are more and more big just because probably the the general quality of cork is, less and less. Less and less you're finding. So it's not, you know, I would have I would have thought to have heard you say that you're finding less problems with cork as opposed to, less less resistance to it. Mhmm. Honestly, you know, we we are really willing, you know, to to pay as much as, you know, for for corkers just because we put so much effort in, you know, to make the wine that's then the corker. And we make wine that we want to, to age and, you know, to taste after that has to be tasted from, you know, from California to Japan. And, of course, you the wine have to, travel. And, at the same time, you know, has to be tasted in within, you know, five ten or fifteen, maybe twenty years. So we are still, by the way, using, cork. But, but on s three, we also have some past meetings. We we had some issues. No. Not really corked things. Sometimes it's just oxidation. That, you know, we see we we take, you know, ten bottles and one is perfect. One is, I'm talking about, you know, maybe fifteen years old bottles. One is perfect. One is good. The other one is, I don't know, not I mean, oxidized, and, it's always a challenge. So we will still bring for the hires soave, but the decision for the next year is, by the way, to to to battle one hundred percent auto with the screw cap, and probably staff are, they will follow. Interesting. Interesting. So we had we had mentioned a few times. So you are you are farming organic land. It's only been so the reds have been certified organic for a while. It's just recent that the white vineyards have been certified if I if I'm correct. Yeah. Yeah. That's correct. That's correct. And this is because, I can tell you because I I I, you know, one of my, let's see. One of the things I do and the winner is also taking care of the organic certification. So Morandina, which is, our crew in Valpolicella. As you know, so it's the area where we own, and we own their eight actors, organic certified since the very beginning. So it was a virgin land that we planned, the vineyards, and, that I never saw any chemical. No neighbors, easy, top of five hundred meters. So no problem with fungus. Very easy to do that. With soave, we were already practicing organic. So avoiding herbicides, pesticides. The problem is, this, that is impossible to, you know, to own the vineyards without neighbors. And, especially the classic query of Swave, you know, we you your own parcels but, maybe you own some some large parcels, but, it's more spread. So, it took more time for bureaucratic reason to start the the conversion, the official conversion. Just because, with the neighbors, we we had some some some issues because, still today, I mean, the, most of the, the neighbors are not organic certified. So did the let's say that the solution we found is basically to, the classify part of the production of Garganaga, depart just next to our neighbors. So in that, in that way, we could solve the problem because once you take the decision to, certify the Garganaga, all the Garganaga that you make has to be, by the way, farmed organically. You cannot, you know, take something off. So that's why we started a little bit later. Our Venus are certified officially since, two thousand and nineteen. If I'm not wrong. Yeah. I thought it was just in the last couple of years, you know, the official certification. What is in, in that part of the world in Swabay? What are some of the biggest areas of concerned, in, in terms of organic farming practices? Like, what, what have the been some of the challenges you've experienced, what have been things that you expected, and, you know, perhaps some, some challenges that, showed up that you weren't expecting at all. So the challenges are well, first of all, that the production I mean, you have to be really, really good in farming. You need, a professional, you need, and the the today, the economy today is, is is an agronomy that, you have to plan in advance. So it's not like in the past, you know, when, you know, when, you see the problem, you take the product and you solve the problem. Now, when you see the problem, it's late. So you might lose the old production. You might lose, fifty percent. You might lose, so especially now with the climate changing, you you're we are having, you know, milder winters. And this is, for fungus. This is bad for, insects, because you you risk definitely to you risk, to get more issues. What make it possible for us, is, of course, it will be impossible, honestly, almost impossible to farm organic in the flat land. Fortunately, well, first of all, our vineyards are all located on the hills. Of suave. So let's make it, possible. And, of course, again, you have to be very good. You have to you need to have a machineries. You need technology. You need an agronomy. And you need really to plan and to work, to anticipate issues. So doing organic means, basically, that you avoid herbicides, you appoint, pesticides. And, you can do that, with the labor, especially herbicides because when the season starts, you have to be ready. You have to go in the vineyards. You have to cut the grass. Very often. Then, of course, depends on, you know, of the winter, depends on the summer, on spring, how much it's gonna rain or not. Then, for insects, you also adopt some other technical. So, for example, sexual inhibitors for insects or other practices that, you know, are are allowed and, in this way also, by the way, the technology and to be, professional helps. And I think for the future, things are moving definitely for everyone in that direction. And, Of course bureaucracy is very complicated. That's why also he knows many times. Also, for example, the back label. I mean, we we got we got the organic certification mainly for because we we trust it. And, and we think it's important. But at the same time, bureaucratically, it's difficult for all the markets to get, you know, the back label. Some markets work in a way. Some others have other regulations. So, yeah, it's challenging, but, but, yeah, I think that today is more and more important. And, we are happy, by the way, also, that we started also the official the official part of the organic certification. Yeah. That's, that's fantastic. It's, especially there. Now you had touched, a little bit earlier on the, UGAZ, you need to geographica, Agentiva's, and this was just the, I believe, is the twenty nineteen vintage. These were allowed which were Right. Thirty thirty three distinct zones that were, that were added. Now how many how did this how has this impacted you in terms of what you're working on for the future? I know. Some of the vineyards would have fallen in here. Did you did Graciano have a role in this development of these? Is there anything you're working on anything to explore these further in the future with some new bottlings perhaps? I mean, this is, it it's interesting, honestly. Of course, Graciano started, I mean, with the some others, I mean, with the previous crews of soave, back in the days with the Monte Grande is our single vineyard. Then it's, of course, a land that we know very well. Thirty three UGA's are probably a lot, actually. But at the same time, is it something we that we are exploring, because we, today, we own thirty seven actors, in Swave, in Swave, Glasgow. And, we are lucky that we own, by the way, you know, Vineyard's in a six, in five crews, actually, five UGA's. And, so we are experiencing really the difference. We own a, pretty large blast in, Ponzara, probably the main one, Frosca, foscarino, actually, we we own mainly plots on the volcanic, on the volcanic side, of the classical and just one in the, on the limestone soil that is monte bison. And we are exploring it. We are studying the ground. We are bottling. Of course, we, we keep when we, you know, that, all the organic that we produce is basically is blended and, we, we make the auto. We are also making since, three, four, five years, separate verifications. And, we are retasting the wines, you know, from time to time. So it's it's a new thing for us, I will say. So we we are excited. We are exploring this. We we think, by the way, Garganaga has to be the grape, of course. So we we are focusing on one hundred percent Garganaga, noise. And, let's see in the future, honestly. One of the idea would be maybe to make, like, a six pack with the six different cruiser. Hundred percent organic as cook up. That will be very exciting. It's not seem really something you will make a business on, but, it's, something that, you know, when you put them on a side and you give, you know, Also, the customer did the chance. Of course, this is more for specials for people that actually are really involved into wine. But, I think it's, it's exciting and it's something that we will work, we will further work, in our future. So They see that our investment is in this direction, but, definitely also in the back vintages and in storing, more of the current vintages to be able in the future to provide yes, also Abe that I think is really can give you also people directly and straight away the, the idea of, you know, how really suave can be a great wine. I think that's, you know, it's a and that's such a valid point. I think, so many of us consume, Italian whites in their youth and, but they all seem to have such tremendous aging capacity that it'll be exciting to see that. And, I look forward to exploring some of your your work with the UGA. You know, it's, I think it's important to note that, you know, the UGA weren't, they're not a quality classification but really just a a classification to to note the the many different soils, and what the what the different styles that are produced from these regions. So I'm excited to to see your work on that to see what you what you come up with for the future. I know we're getting we're getting close to the hour mark. And, as you had said, you're, we're past your dinner time. So, I don't wanna keep that. I don't wanna keep you too long. But, it's past my, dinner time as well. So I am going I'm ready to close-up the room. This was extraordinary time slot, but thank you so Thank you so much, Rob Miller, and Diego, Karadi, for for this lovely conversation. And I just want to remind everyone next week. We'll be back, on our normal regular time slot, which is six pm with Ma shaham, your class mate from Canada, with Lorenzo Marotti Campi. The week after that, we'll have Stefan Metzna with Clement's La Geda. And then the week after that, Julian Faraker with Amanda Courtney. And then, Ashley Howell, with Pirluca Prietti of Abia Nova, since just wanna take a quick, shout out to Laika, our clubhouse manager who's been doing wonderful work, and, of course, Joy livingston of Italian wine podcast producer. So like I said, there are many of us here tonight, but, the top listens, the top ambassadors have more than four thousand listens. So congrats to everyone, and this will again be replayed in on another date. I don't know what the programming is, but we'll get back to you with that. So thank you everybody for joining us. Ciao Slawag, Melissa, Lena, Kevin Tushoffani. Christina Andrea, Andrea Paul, Cynthia, fermented boss, Uprize, Pablo, Elena, Noel, and Matson, Ingrid. I'm closing up the room. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, chi qin. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. 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