Ep. 835 Victoria Cece Interviews Michael Schmelzer | Clubhouse Ambassador's Corner

Welcome to this special Italian wine podcast broadcast. This episode is a recording off clubhouse, the popular drop in audio chat. This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts alike engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. And remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Hello, everybody. My name is Stevie Kim. And this is Italian wine club at Clubhouse. We've been doing this ambassadors corner for for how many episodes now? Thirty second episode. We've been doing this more or less every day, and it is incredibly popular because as you know, we replay this on Italian wine podcast. So some of the episodes, we had more than five thousand listened So I want to personally thank everybody, who is part of the ambassador's corner. And of course, our Italian wine ambassadors at large of, oh, Sandra Taylor. Hello. We have a call with the Magnum ladies on the twenty and that's just I'm just giving a shout out to Sandra Taylor who haven't seen in a very long time, a friend. And of course, we have some Italian wine ambassadors in the audience. Hopefully, they'll join in. Hey, Kevin, Slavek, Melissa. We have Eric, Paul, Balonia. Hopefully, some others will join in. Okay. So let's start this. Our Modsquat for today is Chia Chicheche. Sounds TV. Oh my god. I love I you make me laugh so, so, so much. Because tell tell everyone your, handle. My handle is, slutty spaghetti, but it's spelled s l u t t I. Right. Any tiny, they would say slutti spaghetti. Yes. Yeah. How did that come about? Funny enough. It came about about, four years ago. I was working at Italy, actually. Okay. Where where which Italy. In downtown New York. So in the financial district. Right. And so I was a storyteller. So I ran product demos and classes and whatnot. So my, my boss and my coworker, we used to, you know, come up with recipes and make a lot of jokes about food, and then I don't know how I just came up with the word, like, with the term, like, slutty spaghetti when we were trying to plan a class, and they were like, you have to make that a thing. And then I tried to do it then, but I kind of lost interest, and then I revived it last year. Like being slutty or what? Oh, no. No. It was it was more about and it still is more about kind of having an open appreciation for wine and food and kind of, you know, it's almost bouncing off the heat, you know, the hedonistic aspect of Italian food and wine culture or just Italian culture and allowing yourself to indulge unapologetically in, like, you know, good food and and wine and experiences. So it's actually kind of taking away from that old school, you know, understand, like, perspective of what the word, like, flooding means. Yeah. I think it's hilarious. And you have such a great sense of humor. Listen. So what are you doing exactly? I know you write. Where do you write? Who do you write for? So in my my main job to pay the bills, Yeah. You have a real job. Right? Because who the hell makes money just doing doing wine? So I I work in basically the marketing field. I I'm a freelancer, but I work with multiple clients, mostly actually in the food and beverage and hospitality industry. So I do mostly content strategy. So that's focused on, you know, building out blog strategies, social media strategies, and email marketing strategies. But writing wise, I'm I'm still I work I've kind of right for a variety of platforms. Currently, I'm a contributor to Child Magazine, which is a, beverage magazine, mostly catering to, bartenders for the most part. And then I also write for a new UK magazine, glug which just started, and they're very exciting. And then I also write for the Italy edit, which is a fun Italian cultural magazine, ran by this wonderful woman named Olivia, and that's pretty fun as well. So those are probably the three that I consistently contribute you? Great. That sounds great. You will maybe you can do like a small training course for, our producers at wine to wine or something. We'll think of something to get you on board for wine to wine. So we, as you know, Victoria, we always ask the moderator. Why you've chosen Michael? Schmelzeh. How do you say that? How do you pronounce that, Michael? Schmelzeh. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Schmelzeh as your favorite producer. Yeah. Favorite producer is a big deal. Oh, sure. Yeah. He's not. He's not really your favorite producers. Tell me who you would really be. I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding. I only joke about that because I think to be totally transparent, my true introduction to Monte Bernardi and meeting Michael was very recent, but that doesn't take away, you know, from how great of an experience and how much I have respect for Monte Bernardi. I think that Michael is contributing to a really inspiring and and versatile future for Kianti Glasgow and, like, I'm, in my work, I'm, really about understanding the roots and, like, the traditions of of food and wine, and I think that Michael really pays homage to those things, in his, in his winemaking. And, especially in a place like Chanti Glasgow, which is very famous. And often overlooked, I feel, after working in sales, as, like, you know, people just will write it off, like, as being, oh, yeah, it's count the class or whatever. But really, it's so versatile. And from the soils to the winemaking styles, and, I don't know. I just think what he's doing is super, super cool, and I am, like, incredibly grateful I was able to do harvest there this past year. Oh, so how was the harvest? It was great. It was it was really awesome. It was a lot of work, but, I mean, that's harvest. That's what you sign up for. And, I mean, it's hard to complain about work when you're in a place like Panzano. And the weather was great. Yeah. Did you get to your if you're in Tina, and do these Pansan or you're vegetarian? I oh, no. I'm not a vegetarian. That was very hard, especially with my platform. Yeah. Exactly. No. I actually it's funny you say that. You asked that because I don't think I ate one fjorn Tino's steak while I was in Tuscany that time. But I did eat a lot of great food. A lot of great food. So as you know, we ask everyone what the, so we've discovered that he's not indeed your favorite wine producers. That's still okay. We have to deal with who we have today. But what are we to what are we expecting to learn from this call today with Michael? I think that Well, Michael has a really fascinating perspective on County classical and the history and the winemaking. And I think he is a really great gives a really great perspective on, like, the future of County Glasgow and also where it stands now. And I think it, having him here to, to discuss, you know, Monte Bernard and County Glasgow as a whole will really open up people's eyes to what's happening in this wine region. And wind zone. Okay. Excellent. Before, I give the, the floor to you, and then you'd basically take over. I shut up for, like, about fifteen minutes. I will try to come back. Although we are currently running, Vineetree International Academy in New York at this very moment. So if you hear a lot of background noise, it's Henry Duvard screaming at me or something like that. I just wanted to ask you guys. I see some friends, at large here in the audience that I know there's a lot of shit going around, the world right now, but I would like to ask everybody and maybe help us spread the word that, you know, I think right now is not a moment to be righteous because I know that there are a lot of discussions going around about the war. But before you speak, think about, try to understand the situation because I think it is very difficult moment for everybody. And I just wanted to put it out there. Because there's a lot of discussion and lot of debate going around. Also within our community, and I just I know, you know, for us, this is a safe place. You can say whatever you want, but also mind do a little bit of research before you speak out and not be so impulsive. And I know the emotional right now drive is very, very high, but I want us to try to be a little bit more sympathetic and empathetic of of other people in general and not just ostracize and, be prejudicial, just based on some, you know, crazy world events. That's it. I'm going to not sign off, but I'll be closing off my mic for now. So, slutty spaghetti. Take it away. Okay. Alrighty. Hi, Michael. Hi, Victoria. How how are you how's it going? It's great. Thank you. Trying to just start this out on more of a relaxed note. So, I guess to start off with, like, a little background, So what drew you to Panzano, or county classical? It was a family decision. I was studying winemaking in Viticulture in Australia at Adelaide University, And my sister was in Berlin. I had a brother in Santa Barbara, California. And then my parents were in another part of Germany. And, the, the scheme was kind of born while I was out in Australia, My sister suggested to my parents that if they retired on a property that had a vineyard that maybe I could make the wine and she could sell sell it. And, That's how the idea of having a family winery was started. And then we, we started looking in Europe because I was born in Italy. I have a the younger brother born in France. My sister was born in Michigan. I finished high school in Germany. And, so we, we lived quite a bit of our life in, in Europe. And, my, parents were thinking of retiring in the south of France, and So we, we, when we started looking for properties, the thing that drew me to Panzano and specifically Montebanardi was that I felt like Canty classical had everything that I learned when I was studying about wine that would make a wine region produce, let's say, a Grand Crew wine, a noble grape, high altitudes, steep slopes, rocky soils, big drop in temperature at night. But so I was intrigued and, I wanted to I felt like coming here to make wine, there was a big opportunity to kind of rediscover and highlight, what makes the region so special. That that's that's really awesome. That's it's it's kind of fun how things, like, happen whimsically. In that way, and also kind of relate to the past. So being that, obviously, this is the Italian wine podcast and you being, American winemaker in a in a way. How did it feel coming to, Panzano and being one of the only American winemakers in the area? I think, Fortunately, the wine industry is very social, and I felt very welcome. A lot of the wine makers were actually around my age. You know, they might not have been the owner, but they were you know, making the wines. So we had a lot of things, interests in common that we wanted to share with each other. They were very interested to learn what I learned in Australia, and I was very interested to learn about what they were doing and why they were doing the things that they were doing here. So I felt very welcome. I think coming to here for another for from another industry might be difficult. It is usually hard to crack. Into, these small regional towns like Panzano, but but this is a particularly, welcoming social industry winemaking. So have you have you seen, like, any of those, like, relationships that you started building when you first arrived in Panzano? Have they have you seen how, like, like, is there an example, I guess, is what I'm saying of how you, you, and another winemaker have influenced each other's process? Yeah. I I'm sure. I you know, I think to begin with my I was surprised, at the approach that most people were taking. I, it was more a desire to move forward, as we call passavante in Italian, where I wanted to kind of go back to traditional roots and winemaking because my experience in Australia was very formative. I started off, you know, learning how to make, modern industrial wine and drinking lots of great examples of bridal wines But what I came to the conclusion of, after, a few years there is that these wines lacked a sense of place, a sense of history And so when I knew I was gonna take over the, the kind of leadership and the winemaking of Viticulture at Montipinardi, I came with a very distinct purpose and idea, and that was to kind of rediscover and return to things that I feel would make the wines more obviously, territorial and unique to modern wines because, unfortunately, I think it's true of many European historic areas and grape varieties Italy has, I think, something like eight hundred Native grape varieties that a lot of them are kind of dumbed down and pushed towards the center to make them more kind of fruity round and and more like everything else on the market. And I think that that's, kind of a short term way of looking at what, I would, you know, what I think the producers of this area should do, because after making wine in Australia, I feel like Here, we have such unique special gifts, you know, with the soils and and the native grape varieties that I think the long, long answer to your question is I felt like we were going in two opposite directions for the most part. So it was harder for me to, maybe influence them for sure. I think they thought I was nuts, frankly. Returning to Boat de Grande, not using varieties that maybe could make the wine darker and richer. Just, I, well, I kind of joke that everything I learned in school, over the years. I do the exact opposite. And, and it's not because I'm trying to. It's because I've come to the conclusion that, what we learn in school is, is a standardization. It's to make kind of a modern everyday wine anywhere in the world. And that's fine if you're in a less special area. But if in your if you're in a special area, you should be trying to make the most authentic and pure example of that native variety. Absolutely. That's that's it's super fascinating that, you know, obviously Italy is in the general consumer public seen as, you know, old traditions and sticking to these age old practices, but when you confronted, making wine in in Panzano, it was this drive for modernization, which wasn't act well, and and in your perspective wasn't doing much justice to to the wines. Exactly. It was kind of ignoring their assets, in my opinion, if you think of it this way, it here in our area in the center of Canticlass, you go, La Malay, Panzano, Rada, higher parts of Gallola, higher parts of cast, castellini, we can make very perfumed aromatic and elegant sangiovazis to then push them towards a more rounded modern rich style to me is kind of making wines that can be made anywhere Tuscany. It just seems, as we would say, in Italian Contro San. So against, like, it doesn't make sense. So I think the perspective from Australia where they made every single grape in the world there, and they made good examples of them made me realize this, that you can't come to an expensive area with very small vineyard plots, rocky soils, harder to work, and make something that can be made anywhere else in the world. You really have to, strive to, to, to show the, the uniqueness and, and the special qualities that you have. Absolutely, especially where you are with, like, such versatility in soils. On that note, do you think you can expand upon, the different vineyards of Monte Bernardi and maybe touch on what you have planted there and and why. I know that you you have more than just San Jose and Colorino. So, yeah. Yeah. I make a It's very easy, in the sense that I have either county class echo or I have reserva. I don't believe in Grand Salizione. And if someone wants to ask a question later, Why not? I'm happy to answer it, but, for me, Canticlassico comes from my young vineyards, and reservists come from my old vineyards. And then within that, those two categories, I might have several labels right now we have retro Marcher Canticlassico and Sanzhou Kenticocco. We have two Canticlassicos because one is from our existing vineyards that we've had for now, almost twenty years that I've been making one here. This this vintage will be the twentieth. And Sanzhou comes from newly purchased vineyards that we purchased in December that are in conversion towards organics and biodynamics and come from a different part of Panzano. And for our reservas, we have Montebinardi reserva, which is ninety five percent Sanjuve C, five percent Camayolo, and comes from our purely classic cholesterol soils, the purple brown shale. Whereas our site to reservice and a hundred percent sangiovese incomes only from our Pietter Forte sandstone soils. So I try to give, vineyard based identity to the to all our wines that are really easy to understand. I don't, you know, I all the all my thinking is born from my first passion, which is cooking And I studied, in France, and I worked in kitchens, most of my young life. And, this really, influenced my way of thinking when I make wine, I read every book I could get my hands on when I was studying to cook, just like I have for winemaking in Viticulture when I was studying. And one book that really influenced me from the food side that stuck with me all the way through the wine side is a book written by Waverly root called The Food of France. And in this book, I think it was written in the sixties, he's divided the book up, by fats that the the cook would cook with. So, Fran he divided France up by the the fats that the that the area would cook with. So in the north, they had cows and milk and butter, and they cooked with milk and butter. In the south, they had olive trees, and they cooked with olive oil. In other parts, they had, you know, goose liver or chicken, fat, and, and it was just so eye opening and made me realize, you know, that not only did that influence the food that was made in the in the regional dishes, but it also influenced the wines that that kind of the grape varieties and the styles that were made to fit with those foods. And to me, that's something that we don't think about very much anymore. And so by turning back and going to more, what I would say, traditional, way of approaching my winemaking, I would be, making wines that are much more suited for our regional dishes that complement and don't outshine the food. And and I think that's something that's really important. It it's also influences very strongly the way I make my wines too, which we can get to later. I'll explain to that. But, that's, that's kind of like the base of the way I think about everything I do is is very much from kind of a cooking kind of way of expressing things as well. So I use a lot of cooking metaphors when I describe things. It's it's really fascinating, actually, because I think you know, and something that's been, great, I think about the expansion of wine education nowadays is reminding ourselves of, you know, like, you match what grows on the land, like, you know, Was it? What go what grows together goes together? That's the the saying. Yes. What grows together goes together? Yep. Which is really, really important. And I I don't wanna so you said a lot of great things, so I wanna make sure I remember the questions to ask you following this but I definitely wanna go into your winemaking approach and to continue the conversation on how that, reflects the land and matches the regional dishes. So if do you wanna dive a little bit more into your winemaking approach? Sure. Sure. I mean, so following on that, that thread, that idea of how I think, as a a good chef or cook would, cook, you would cook with no recipe, and you would want the best ingredients. And that, you know, to me, the way we make wine and wine modern winemaking right now, it's kind of like a which is brew cocktail with, like, eye of newt and fish bladder and animal hooves and, you know, powdered tannins. And I I thought to myself when I got my first experience in a winery in Australia and I had to mix powdered tannins in a bucket before dumping in the tank. I thought, I would never eat this. Why on earth would I drink this? You know? To me, we're growing a fruit And instead of cooking it, we're fermenting it, but it's no different. So in order to make the purest expression of my place, it also, to me, should not be doctored, let's say, with products and even yeast and bacteria. And we so we we ferment naturally. We don't we've never added any product to our wine except for sulfur dioxide. We've never fine. We've never filtered. It's not really it was never a political natural wine idea as much as it was this idea to pull out the territory and And, basically, I think what those things do, modern technology and products, they either take something away from that tip of city, or they cover something of in the from that natural characteristic. So just like making food, even Barriques, to me, a good cook who would use a spice like cinnamon or clove or something, wants to use it at a level where You kind of see it there. You know there's something there, but you almost can't identify it. And it gives a complexity to it. If I ever have wood in my wine, that's how I would want it to be perceived. I would wouldn't want it to be obviously in the wine. And To me, that's something that can be bought and added like like a spice. And if you have excellent ingredients, why on earth would you do that? That's an amazing point. Be especially when you were saying how, like, if I'm I'm not gonna eat this so why would I drink it? And, I think that understanding, the production side of everything we consume is really important. And not to, you know, pivot away from wine, but just to make that point, something that we should consider as we choose our wines, and also why, obviously, they have these Italian wine chats. So, so I know that you also kind of reflect the same methodology in your vineyards you farm organically and biodynamically. I'm assuming that was more of a choice because you were reflecting the old school methods, not because you're trying to follow any kind of trend. Well, definitely not a trend because I didn't I don't think it was fashionable, when I started The way biodynamics was, let's say brought to my attention was when I was in Australia and I was buying food ingredients in the local central market, store, market, open market. I was buying organic, things and occasionally things labeled with Biodynamics, and I didn't really pay attention to it. I didn't know what Biodynamics meant. I I just assumed it was still just organic and not much more to it. And after a short while of I started to realize that I liked the ones with the bidenemic mark more than the organic mark. I thought there was something more to them. And I specifically remember eggs and orange juice as being the standout items that, really made me wonder more about bidenemics. And then so I started researching and reading about bidenemics, and I did not connect to the Steiner and Jolie kind of mystical. I'm super pragmatic and kind of scientific in the way I approach things. I need to have the reason behind what I'm doing, at least so I cannot do it or do it. I can't I've never been that type per person to say, I don't know why it works, but it works, which is the common refrain that I hear from biodynamic, a kind of followers. I had to research the microbiological kind of, underpinnings that made me understand Vitinamex better and, allowed me to apply it more liberally. And in a way that I think most die hard biodynamic people are farming in a way that is not the way the old farmers would farm. It's too it's too it's unrealistic. You know, for example, picking only on fruit or flower days would be picking four days out of every two weeks. It's it's absolutely absurd to think that a Quantino would have that kind of luxury of time to not pick based on the fruit or flower day, or a lot of these things are kind of steiner and tune things for explaining these old great practices that I believe strongly in but putting a kind of a mystical twist to explain it, whereas I went deeper and found the kind of micro biological explanations for why they work. And that allowed me to then stir it in a flow form, spray it with a quad bike or my tractor because I understood what I was doing and what I was creating. That's that's actually really interesting because it's almost like well, because, you know, being a farmer is and was a a form of a business and, you know, you can't really leave your business up to luck or just, a random set of rules that you don't know will actually work. So I think that's really It's really, wise to dive deeper into it and and not take away, you know, the romanticism that we all love of wine, but to find a way to still produce, like, a a delicious product I hate to call wine a product, but a delicious, you know, wine, in the end, that's still reflective of the terroir, still organic biodynamic. I'm not quite sure how much time we have on this because it's my first time here. But, oh, Leica, do are are we good on time? We're here on time. Okay. All good. Okay. Great. I just wanted to make sure where I guide my questions. Don't lead us too far down the road. One one more thing about the the aspect. So not only did I think I could produce better fruit and thereby make better wine, but it was also an aspect that I didn't want to have fruit in my fields that my kids couldn't just go and pick off and put into their mouths. You know, so there was an aspect of that as well, that led me to say, we're only gonna farm organically or bidonymically because I'm not gonna have something out there that I have to tell my kids they can't put in their mouths. That's that's a really valid point and also goes back to, like, if I'm not going to eat this, why would I drink it, kind of methodology of, and also things just being natural. Right? It's it's kind of frightening to tell someone they can't eat something that grows from the earth. And then, you know, go ahead and sell the the product to someone in the future. It doesn't make sense. Well, I wanted to go back to, your comment on the Grand Salizione, because it didn't get a fascinating one, and also because they just announced last year that there's a new UGA's, in Chanti Glasgow. And I wanted to open up the floor to you to talk about your involvement in that and also your perspective on GrandFlexianna. Yeah. No. I appreciate that. Basically, the that's the concept of Gren Solizione, I can't really remember anymore what year we found out about it, about it, as producers. I wanna say roughly twenty sixteen or so. But it could be even before that. And me and other small smaller producers kind of like, were shocked that they this was the way that the consorts you wanted to go to promote the region, let's say a grand reserva in a in what we as producers for for quite some time were talking about was the need to focus on teaching and spreading the word about the subregions of Kenticlosico, because Kenticlosico is a pretty large region. It's eight thousand hectares of vineyards or twenty thousand acres. That's the same amount of pinot noir planted in burgundy, basically. And imagine every pinot noir leaving burgundy with just the burgundy name on the label without all the sub zones and and the Vineyard Dames and the cruise and the premier cruise and grand cruise. It's unfathomable. And so we thought, that if we move the conversation to sub zones, Panzano Rada, Castelina, all these, different sub zones of of Kentaclassico. Not only would we peak more interest in learning about our region, but we would also sidestep that annoying question about the difference between Canton and Canticlassico, which is a totally legitimate question, but it doesn't move, the understanding of our region forward. It's kind of where we get stuck on this technicality, essentially, that Kianti, classical, is the true original and only territory of Kianti. Then Duke Grenimo decided to expand the the area that could use the name Kianti to help other regions of Tuscany sell their wine. And that's when, we, our region became Kent classical. So that's the reason behind the the discussion, but it's not helpful for us as kantecostica producers to to talk about that difference. It doesn't help people understand our region better. So by moving it towards the sub zones and making people understand that there's such wide diversity in altitude soils and, and, you know, and temperature medians and, and all these different you know, it sloped, steepness and things like that. They're they all make different expressions of San Giovanni and Canta Glasgow. And so we all agree that that should be done, even now, the consorts you. The problem is is they want to start it with the grand Cylaciones, not with the Kente Clasicos or the reservas. And to me, that's like excuse my language as backwards. It's, you know, Grand Salazione, for me, is basically a category that was created to make a super tuscan within my region. So it epitomizes the thing that I don't like about, the direction we're taking our region, making it, dumbing it down, moving it towards the center, and then allowing only that Supertuscan type category to be able to highlight the sub zone is like, to me, it's it's really it doesn't give any credibility to the UGGas right off the bat because those wines don't reflect the sub zones. That's an interesting perspective, in the sense that, like, when you started talking about how, you know, you wouldn't just name all the wines in Burgundy, burgundy, and and still there, wines, you know, are They they have different crews, but they still maintain the identity of their place. And I think that also I mean, it's burgundy, of course, but that's that level of prestige that comes with the name with burgundy wines, the level of prestige for something in, like, county Glasgow wines, of course, maybe on a global scale isn't, like, is not as large, but that is because of these kinds of particulars. And it's it's it's because these kind of, decisions made by the consortium are often, watered down or chosen to satisfy, commercial bottlers and not the small farmers making, kind of more, high quality county classical wines of the region. So it's it is, it's against the direction that I think would improve the image the best. And think about also, Borolo and barbaresco. I mean, everyone wants, to have different, you know, communes of Barolo on their shelves in a wine shop. But if you go to a wine shop, and you present your, your Panzano Canticlassico, they're gonna say, well, I already have two other Canticlassicos, you know. So that's the kind of the missing element. It gives also a much broader larger possibility for us as producers to sell our wines because they will be looked at as having a lot more diversity in, in, in availabilities and qualities and and uniqueness is, I guess, if that's a word. Absolutely. I I think, you know, and even for me, that really resonates with me because prior to me really diving into my own Italian wine study, being in wine shops, you know, you you know that they have a county class to go, and you're just like, okay, yeah, I've seen the county class to go. Okay. Cool. And you kinda just bypass the section unless you're looking for that particular you know, you are looking for a county class ago. And I think, like you said, it really would eliminate that discussion that I have all the time about differentiating, you know, county from county, Colisenese from county Glasgow, and having people actually become more interested and more inspired by the wines. I also think it's interesting that you say about the, these new regulations catering more to large scale producers when you know, a lot of the, the original point. I may be wrong. I think that, what what's interesting is that, you know, for the, DOCs and DOCGs, one of the original points is the authenticity and something that's a bit controversial. And, you know, having these denominations, and location wise for County Glasgow would would cater right to that idea. So I think I think it's an interesting discussion. One that's, I hope that can, you know, I hope that county classical can be involved in in the future. And so with regards to that. Sorry. I've I'm I get a little nervous with these clubhouse, discussions. What do you, like, how do you see the future of county classical, you know, with the new movement with, of the changes in, the DOCGs and, and whatnot? Yeah. It's it's difficult to say in the sense that, you know, I think the consort suit has really good objectives a lot of the time and does a lot of great things to promote our, our region and the producers, but we have to understand that these kind of decisions are voted on, and the votes are weighted based on how many Fachete, the little tax stickers you purchase as a winery. So, essentially, the bigger you are, the more votes you have for anything that we vote on. So it basically makes it very difficult for small producers to make changes in the right direction because they're always squashed by the heavy voters of the commercial bottlers and and the like. So that makes it difficult right off the bat. There's also, so there seems to be an internal movement, since about twenty fifteen where we have, a set of guidelines of how a wine should be made. It's called the Desupelanario, and It basically says what the characteristics of each type of wine should have, and one, disturbing, direction there is that they change the wording And now, let's say, Canticlassical Reserve, which used to be under the Canticlassical kind of, guidelines, would say that The color varies from subregen to subregen. Well, that's been crossed out, and now it says the reserva has to be rubino rosso intenso, so dark red, which doesn't really make any sense. Sanjeevese isn't inherently a dark colored variety, and the color varies greatly on the weather. So in cooler weather with higher acid, you have a more vibrant, intenseer color, but it's never really dark. And in warmer years, you have a lighter kind of more, towards Bruno, almost color of Sanjuvezi. So these kind of pushes are, I describe it as kind of like wizard of wizard of Oz behind the curtain kind of decisions. They're being made before the wine is even authorized for sale. And it's forcing kind of this modern concept of wine onto wines of our region and not letting consumers decide because they they they can reject your wine now saying that it's too lightly colored cut density in Tensitah, for example. So to me, that's a disturbing trend because, I even though I don't like the modern trend and the Grenciliates Yoni, I think their being in the market expands the appeal of Canticlassico as a whole. I don't want to tell anyone how to make their Canticlassicals. You know, I hope younger generations, growers and not just in Canticlassico, but throughout Italy, kind of break away from this modern way of thinking, that every wine has to be soft, supple, darker. You know, all the things that points have pushed basically every wine towards, and that they start to embrace the unique characteristics of every native grape and really try to, grow the best version of that grape and and then make it in the most simple way to to to exhibit it in its purity and its beauty that made it that grape Friday that was chosen for generations and generations to be the best grape and wine for the food of that area. It's it's a it's a crazy phenomenon that that, you know, we can define consumer taste in, like, expectations rather than, you know, allowing consumers to enjoy what, you know, what they like to enjoy, especially with a place like, you know, wines from from county Glasgow or Tuscany or Italy in general, because there's incredible versatility, and, you know, variability in grape varietals. And that's interesting. I did not know about the color that there was a there is an actual rule about the the color that the reservoir should be. And You wouldn't know, unless you're a producer, you wouldn't know, or if a producer would tell you because it's behind the curtain, you know, so you wouldn't know. And, It I am one who when I hit, you know, when I'm confronted with those kind of challenges, I raise my voice and say, no, no, this is not okay. And so every time I have those kind of conflicts. I I speak about it more. I bring it to light more, but I have friends who have, you know, blended away that wine or you know, sold it off because they they're too shy to sell it as a non Kenticlassico reserva or or a can't, you know, even Kenticlassicos. So it's not, It's not something that is spoken about to, to freely, but it should be because, it should not be decided by a three person tasting panel, or five person tasting panel, made up of wine consultant cut, you know, some who passed some tests and then, have a little sheet on the side and says, is this dark color, light color? You know, It's just, I, I agree that wine should be tasted for faults, and we don't want, like, wines that are completely shot or or very defective. To be released under Kent to classical. But once you get past that, it becomes much more subjective, and it should not be decided before. If someone doesn't like my wine, they don't buy another bottle of monte benardi. It's not like they don't by any more Kent class ago. It's kind of absurd, notion to to try to decide what, these wines should be like. I mean, absolutely. And it's, it's the it's the livelihood of, you know, these wine makers like yourself. Like, so it's almost like you, you don't blame them for shying away just in fear of not being able to sell their wines. But at the same time, it's it's really courageous of you to stand up for what you believe in in your winemaking practices. So I believe we're starting to wrap up, but one last question, just to end it on a fun note and, open up the discussion if we are doing a q and a. What do you like? What's your favorite thing to drink right now besides your own wines? Yeah, I mean, I I I love drinking wines from outside of Tuscany in general because I obviously drink a I have a lot of opportunity to drink wines from Tuscany. I probably would say On average, my house white is either Shannon or from the Loire Valley or, or maybe, muscadet or Champagne, but, I I love diversity. I would say that, I'm always looking for wines that are balanced and and great expressions, and I don't try not to, drink the same thing over and over. So but, I would say if I had to pick one thing, it would probably be Shannon at the moment. Shannon is delicious. It's not Italian, but it's delicious. Yeah. Did you ask me Italian? Sorry. No. I didn't. I I let it. I let you choose. Okay. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Michael. I'm Now I have to turn it over to Stevie. Okay. Hey. My pleasure. Wow. What what, so you give us some, like, industry secrets that love it. Now everybody knows the behind the scenes. You know, five other thousand people will know. That's for sure. Listen, Michael. I do have we don't have that much time. So I will ask you a couple of questions. Number one, how many wines do you make? How many bottles? Can can you give me some context? We, make we have, twenty five hectares that we make one hundred and twenty five thousand bottles on interfermente productive, which means we don't buy a kilo of grape or a liter wine, making those, those range. And that's, I think, six or seven labels. And then we have I see five labels on your website. Yeah. That's our website is so out of date as time. Yeah. That kinda brings me to my second question, which is You're talking to our web designer at the moment too. Yeah. I know, honey. This is very sad because this is this was my second question because, first of all, do you not believe in social media? Like, I mean, what the hell? I don't even see I can't even find you on Instagram. I know. And you have this beautiful photos, you know, the galleries. Put them on an insta account. Do you not want to be found? No. You're doing a very good job. Thank you. The thing is is I do, so we do have a Facebook page, Monteu Bernard, and then No one's on Facebook anymore. I know. I agree with that. And then Instagram, it's me doing Montebinardi from me. The thing is I know, but you have a private account. Right. Right. Right. Right. That's true too. I I don't want to, like, go down on you really, you know, told me the same thing. It's more the fact that it would fall on my shoulders at the moment. That's where Well, you know, I, you know, I, I have to tell you a secret. Okay. You can actually hire somebody. Yes. It doesn't have to be you don't have to be a one man show. Listen, Victoria. You should help him. You're the expert. You have this discussion. Oh my god. This is terrible. You have to I think you have such an interesting, story to tell. And I don't know if your wine is any good. I've not tasted, I have to say. But you, I love the pictures. They're beautiful. You should put it on insta. Nobody's on Facebook. Okay. Alright. I didn't want to come down on you so hard, but I think it's very deserving. Thank you. I appreciate that. Alright, Michael. I it was a really, fantastic conversation. And and thank you for being on the show. Thank you for doing a great job Victoria. You didn't need to be nervous. I don't understand. You're so friendly. And I feel like I can give you the mic or a camera anytime. You're already set to go. And then you're like, oh, I'm shy. I love it. I love this millennials. So listen, I'm going to close-up the room, boys and girls, because also I think Henry Duvard here is finishing up. So I have to just see what's going on. But I do see Kevin Kevin was our top student from July's edition New York via and he will be hosting March twenty second. Colombera, from Artopiamonte. Next week, we have Fannie Brude. She's, this this Italian wine Ambassador from France with a terribly French accent, and she will be interviewing federico Junchini from Salvador. After that, we have, Wayne Youngs with Ronky Dichala, the Rapuzzi brothers on and on and on. We have all the entire program. We'll take a short break during the, of course, the Vineetale marathon because we will all be in Napp, but we'll be coming back shortly before and after that. So stay tuned everybody. Like, do you want to say anything? So next week, we're also going to have another series. So this is in partnership with, EJ Gallo winery. So, they're gonna have, a clubhouse, which is under the wine business club. So it's in another club. Right? Yeah. Yes. It's another club. So we are now under Italian wine club, but the other one is the wine business. So we'll have Sarah Bray. She's gonna interview to separate. Who is the producer from Edna? Yes. At seven PM Italian time zone. Okay. Great. Listen, thank you so much, Michael. Hello to Jennifer. And Victoria, hope to see you soon. Are you coming back to Vineet's late? I'm not quite sure. Come back. Come back. Okay. I'm We love your energy. So come back. Thank you. Okay. And, Michael, I hope to meet you in person sometime. I do believe you even came to my office. You got interviewed by Monty. Didn't notice that. Yeah. And he did it at no. Actually, he did it at, Monty. And, it was his story, so he interviewed five producers, all at Montevani. He asked me to choose the producers. Oh, okay. So you and Montee are buds. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. I've known Montee since the beginning. I don't want to know. That's too much information. Okay. Alright. Listen, you guys. I'm going to sign off. Thank you everybody. So for for joining, Slavleg, Melissa. Kevin get ready. Now, you know what to do. Justine Sandra. Challenge Sandra, Paul, of course. And who else is on? Okay. That's it. I'm signing off. Try over buddy. Thank you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud Apple Podcast spotify, EmailIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time. Chichi. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment production and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.