Ep. 848 John Irwin Interviews Andrea Pieropan | Maze Row Wine Merchant Series

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. We are thrilled to be presenting a seven part series with our fantastic partner, May's Row wine merchant. We are proud to present this series of interviews, diving deep into the heritage and legacy of May's Rose excellent Italian producers tune in every Saturday from March fifth through to April sixteenth as we take an intimate look at these respected historic producers and their role as part of the Maize Row family of Luxury wines. And remember to check out our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp, for incredible video content featuring a visit to Arjano. Hello, everybody. Welcome. Thank you for joining us today. And thank you to Andre of Hero Panopan for joining us today as well. My name is John Erwin, and I represent Maisrel wine merchant. An importer for wines, including Puro Pan in the United States. And I'm also an Italian wine ambassador like some of you may be as well. So, I just wanted to jump right in here, Andrea, welcome Thank you for joining us. We're gonna talk a little bit about the history of your state. We're gonna talk about those beautiful wines that you make. And of course, what I'm really interested in talking about today too is the new Cantina that you just opened as well. If you wanna take yourself off mute here and just say hi to the fine people here in clubhouse. How is everything? Good. Thank you. Yeah. What about you? I am doing really well. I'm actually in Calastoga today. Traveling in Napa. So you and I were in two wine regions across the world from each other. But, I wanna focus on your wine region, first and foremost, Swabay, Casaco. So I'll just give you a a brief introduction here for Those of you who may be new to Puro Pan, I'm sure you have heard the name before, but this is Andrea Puro Pan, fourth generation, I believe, Andrea, winemaking for a Puro Pan, within a state that has existence since eighteen eighty, located in Swave, Glasgow, and famously, you know, of course, I have a certain bias towards Puro Pan, but I I believe Puro Pan is the first family of Swave for a few different historical reasons that we'll get into in just a second. So, Andrea, I wanna turn it over to and I wanna ask you if you can give us a little bit of a historical perspective on your family, When did the winery start talk a little bit about the different generations that have influenced Puro Pan over the years, what they brought to it? And then also a little history of Swabay mixed in. I'll ask you questions, of course, if there's anything. That comes up, but I wanna hand it over to you if you can give a little history of Puro Pan as an state. Chow, John. Yes. I'm, as as you say, I'm I'm the fourth generation of your past family with my brother, Mario. And, but before before us, the first one has been, I was a surgeon. He wasn't, an a was a surgeon. He wasn't, an a wine maker. Who was a technically a doctor, but fortunately for us, he left the job because he becomes scary about the blood. So if you so if you want to be surgeon and you're scared about the blood, definitely It doesn't work. Yeah. And, he had got, a couple of actor off lens in, in mainly in the calvarinos area, and he started to mix, an, a, and a sweet wine called Rachoto D' Swava because, because, from his, he's knowledgeable, he probably for his doctor studies. He probably knows the the the biological process of the of the, of, of the of the organism, and then he start to to make some wine. He had got the free sons, fausto, Gustavo, and Julia. Julia became engineer, not involved in, in in this business. And, Fausto and Gustavo continues to talk about the father without being winmakers. But from free sons, from free men, we had got just one son, Leonil, from Fausto. My father, no need to became graduating in winemaking school in Konelliano on nineteen sixty six. And, he became, after he became graduated, he invested to buy, the most beautiful vineyard in the swabic classical because, at that time, Kerapan was already in in the production of wine, but, we we weren't independent, in terms of vineyard. So, he bought several binions. Cabarino was already was already part of the family, but, arrive, Lamoroca, for example, nineteen seventy six, and many other lineas located in the classical in the classical zone. From my father, where he had got, two sons, me and my brother, Dari. That is the winemaker because he's graduating winemaking school in, university in Odina. And, I have done, after, I know when making school in, in some particular law digit. I've done, agronomist studies in the university of Pargo. So in our family business, we runs to two two part differently. One is, value. Take care about the verification of of the wine, and I take care about the the the job and the vineyard. I'm so interested in this idea that your great grandfather was a surgeon because famously, one thing that's been said about your father, Franco Allegrini said that if your father didn't become a winemaker, he would have been a watchmaker. Referencing the fact that there there has always been a level of precision and detail and care in your winemaking, and it seems to be almost genetic that you bring this very as I've talked to you in the past, there's certainly a scientific approach to the wine, but what I find so exciting about your wines is it's married with this understanding that the the terroir is going to give you what it gives you. Do you ever think about that tension, or or do you consider that idea of how do you manage, you know, making the best possible wine versus making the wine that a specific vineyard might give you like Calvaryen or La Rosa. I I think, the the the the careful of the details is a part of the is a part of the characteristic of the pure pan. And, and in particularly, we we, from my father, and now, in in our, or in in our asset, we want to, get the opportunity as more as possible that the glass of wine is, is talking about the territory where we come from. So to be to make wine like this, you have to be and a good listener, more than a good talker. Which mean which mean which mean understand the potential of the territory. Don't make necessary every time the wine that you, want to show but have the have the have the the attention and the sensibility to to show what the territory wants to show. And, and this is not final, in my opinion. That there I wanna back up. Well, to get to Calvaryno and Laroca, you're two single vineyard wines, watershed wines, which is why they classico, but since we're on this topic, I do wanna mention the first time I ever met you, Andrea, you said something really interesting to me, and it was like a lightning bolt that you were explaining that many people can make good wines now. The science, the technology has caught up to make good wines. And now it's really quality wine is really more about what you're saying listening instead of talking and and and Was that something that has always been since, you know, in your family, this idea of delivering this idea of terroir, or did you get to a place where the wine technology caught up where you felt like you really could deliver tear wire in a specific way, and you sought that out. I think it was, was something that my father has always introduced the in his part of, life, because, papa has been the the first one to introduce the single vineyard in this in this land with Cabarino nineteen seventy one or Morocco on nineteen seventy eight. So you don't make in a single vineyard at the beginning or at the end of the nineteen seventies. If you don't have, this instability to understand that, and after what can be better than others, and then must be expressed in the wine. So I think the sensibility and the the also the humility to understand the potential and not to be the protagonist of your wine, but, to be, an instrument, of your wine to develop the territory in the glass, is something that you, you cannot learn or you cannot, you cannot, learn in in any book or whatever. It's like it's like it's like watching and, watching something, that could be hard or whatever and appreciated that it, if it's well done or not. So if you have the sensibility to understand and to appreciate what is nice, what is beautiful, you have it. If you don't, you don't have it. Yeah. For all the science that goes into wine in terms of you know, chemical signatures and and the things that we think of when we think of aromatics that come out of wine esters, it's amazing how philosophical wine can remain, despite how much precision can be brought to wine making. I wanna talk about that moment in the nineteen seventies, particularly that first vintage of Calvaryno in nineteen seventy one. And so for those of you in the clubhouse right now that are not familiar with the wine, Calverino was the first single vineyard Swave classico. And correct me if I'm wrong, Andrea, but I believe it was also the first Swave classico to really be aged for any significant amount of time before release. Is that accurate? What do you mean if it's a It's been it's been a body. I'm not sure if the winemaking was the same back then, but, it's it would spend a year on the lease in in fiberglass line, concrete tanks. Yeah. Cabarino, start to be, not not immediately. Not of things in nineteen seventy one. Start to do an extra year of aging in the cement tanks for fiberglass, wall. But, the choice, to give also for Calvaryno a next year of aging as was already done since the beginning with La Rocka was done in the two thousand three. Because we we we understood that the calvaryno potential, was was a peer better when, when the wine remain longer in the cellar. So And, and and then to be not confused with the swabic classical, which is in a two thousand and three to get an extra year of aging, to to place it, Calvino as Larocca releasing it one year later. I see. Okay. And in nineteen seventy one, releasing a single vineyard watershed, in Italy, generally because I think as we've talked about before, it wasn't, uncommon for wines made from international varieties, especially white wines to be single vineyard, you know, Yemen's vintage to Nina came out around then. Gaia was playing with international varieties, and and, Olivia Fuluaga. But I I'm interested in the fact that your father was so committed to native varieties, specifically, and especially in a region that at the time wasn't known for terreward driven single vineyard wines. I I believe at the time, there were probably there was probably oceans of Swave being imported into the United States that was made as more of a simple quaffing wine. Is that is that right? Yeah. The, as you as you said in La Rocka and the specific was was born, almost around the years of those wine that you mentioned. And, And, but the the big, one of the big different comparing those wines was that, my father trusted that this project, was possible to make, with indigenous grapes. With a local grapes in this specific case with the Garganiga. So the the the the the the the the the the project is big because not only because he trusted it was possible to make and a great wine with one year of aging, fermentation, and aging on oak. But because he trusted it was possible with organic grapes that as you say, was in the in the in the common idea for everybody, and, an an an upgrade just for massive production. So now it's it's quite simple and easy to talk about, this, but, almost forty five years ago was definitely not so easy. Yeah. And here in the United States, it's not uncommon for us now to find Grillo by the glass on a wine list or Caracante or some other native grapes, but it I find it so remarkable the vision that your father had to make a single vineyard verietally label verietally built garganaga made a varietal wine in nineteen seventy eight. And and to think that now we sort of seek these native varieties out, but at that time, it just wasn't happening. People were really leaning on international varieties more, especially in areas like free willy. And so, for everybody in the clubhouse now, we're talking about the first vintage of La Rosa, which was in nineteen seventy eight. This was the first single vineyard Oak aged Swave classico. And one story that I find fascinating, Andrea, that you've told me about before is that you struggled to sell this wine in Italy initially. Is that accurate? Yeah. It is, it has been very difficult at the beginning to for my father, obviously, for propose this wine because, between, between when it's born and, I want to say beginning of the 1990s. So for we can say fifteen years more or less. It was, technically impossible to sell this wine in Italy because, as we discussed, the the the the the general opinion, the common idea was that the white wine generically was just to drink extremely fresh and young. So one two months after the harvest, in particular, so other. You it was the years of Ebola. It was the years of big massive volume swab in the US market, but also also here in Italy. And, because we we don't have a technically comparison with, French wine or something like that. The consuming of wine in Italy was a ninety nine percent domestic one. So the comparison was not assisting. People simply don't approach to unwind like this because it was, one year older, fermenting an Asian look, and was still close to others. So all those things was exactly going in the opposite direction or what my father projects were wants to wants to show. The and this one could be this project could be continuous just because, has been well affected outside of Italy. UK, Canada, US, Japan, and that gave the force for my father to to continue, mister project. Otherwise, if if we will be known like this, probably we will not probably hear to talk anymore about La Rocka. Just the beginning of the nineties, when, start to burn a gamber also, slow wine, ice, so the first Italian wine magazine, also Italian market start to recognize this wine and appreciate his his and his quality. Was that Luigi Veranelli's wine writing that that started to that started to promote Puro Pan broadly, or was it something else? In Wigi Veronelli, arrived earlier than this magazine arrived in this Okay. And was, very big fan of Calvino. In fact, if he he have seen, wants to have say that, Calvaryno is like an, an a blue blue jacket for a man. What mean mean that, is is something that you, that every man has to have it in the is a cup board because in case you went to the party, in case you have to go to the funeral, in case you have to go to work and a blue jacket that makes, makes every man always comfortable. No. And, and in these things, Cabarino is so sweetable. So so versatile wine that, you would be never miss in any fridge. This was the the meaning of the of the synthesis of which you had an earlier about, about a heavy case. I love that. Uh-huh. And so I wish for everybody on this call to have a bottle of calvaryno in their fridge at all times. It says, This is useful as a as a blue jacket or a little black dress. So, and so I just I'm I'm so fascinated in the within the context of what your father did first single vineyard, first single vineyard, okay, even being beyond where the market was ready, you told me though a story where your father snuck the wine into a tasting of burgundy. Is that accurate? The LaROCA? He, it was it was on a tasting of, organized from my father with, some gander also taster at the at the winery. He put an, an older bottle of Larocca in a burgundy tasting, and, and was, was fun because, in a blown tasting, when they discover and do twenty wines, Larocca arrives second in, in terms of scores. And then, that was also the beginning of, of the understanding of Lara for those, for those journalists there and also for for for, and then, for the for the market in Italy we're talking about. Yeah. It wasn't long after that. I think that Gampar Rosa actually named LaROCa, their white wine of the year in the early two thousands. You Was it yeah. Was it was nineteen ninety eight. It was at the beginning of the two thousand. Yeah. You mentioned the suitability of Calvaryno. It's it's, it's ability it's to work across different cuisines and different occasions. But can you speak a little bit more broadly just to kind of, just to kind of set the table for Swave wine? To you, can you describe Swave wine? And to you, can you just say what you think makes a great suave wine in terms of flavors and profile? Swave wine or pewdiepie wine and pyrrole pan specifically. So both, if you don't mind. I prefer to talk about pewdiepie. Peter pan. Well, I guess I guess we can we can say comfortably that a great Swave wine is Puro pan. So we let's talk about what? Puro pan. What is the typical flavor profile for Puro pan? For for us, as we have always done, wine gastronomic, always even the years where it was very unpopular. We always work to have a wine with an in in our opinion on a correct I call content. That's makes the the wine very pleasant to drink with food, many type of food, because in my opinion, when when the vehicle is too high, the the it's clearly to the the the taste of, of of the cuisine. And, and and this is not something that we definitely don't want for our for for our wine. The using of Gerganega in Trebiano, without Malo Latic has to have a more freshness and more, character of the terroir because, anytime that you have too much Malo in the wine in, in my opinion, the one should be it should looks like, too much global in taste and less connect with the terroir. And, and this is something that European, for example, doesn't like much. So we want the connection with the territory. And then we maintain the freshness and the acidity exactly for this reason because give more drinkability with food, and and at the same time, as more connection with the territory. Is in the white, the the the the young in the younger expression, the the aroma can be recognized with some peaches, apricot, blossom, flowering aroma, cherry, almond blossom, with, attach a pair because, this come from the Trebiano de soave, which give you the acidity. And, and the, obviously, if you don't use Trebiano de soave, but you use the sharp on it, it's a different result, but we haven't, Charlene, our blend. Different stories definitely with a beta opera because in that opera, because there is a one hundred percent gunica ticket very, very ripe. The the overripe character give an extra, an extra flavor with much more complexity. So the fruit goes more into the tropical notes. Some pineapple, some mango, some tropical character that, are less in the in the fresher version. Yeah. And so to bring this down to some technical information. So as many of you probably know, Swave Costco, the indigenous varieties that are allowed in Swabe Chascico are Gargonaga and Treviano Diswabe. Treviano Diswabe is genetically, and I'm using air quotes here the same as Verdicchio, but this is a specific biotype that's native to Swave, classical. And, However, you're also allowed to use chardonnay in the blend. However, Pieropan never uses chardonnay. They only focus on the native varieties. You mentioned that Trevionity Swave gives a little bit more acidity to the to the wine. And you mentioned the power of and and and just to back up, Treviano de Swave is in Calvaryno, thirty percent. So it's a seventy thirty blend Gorgana de Swave in Calvaryno. And La Rosa is one hundred percent Garganaga. Was there a specific reason why you chose Garganaga, a hundred percent Garganaga for the LaROCA bottling in that specific vineyard? Versus the thirty percent Treviano de Swave and the Calvaryno vineyard. Because in La Rocka, the project was since the beginning to get in all the right, freight. And this is possible with Gallgania grapes, so much more complicated with Treviano because Treviano mature too early to enjoy the the the the the overripe because, with Calganica, we go until the end of October, where there are the optimum condition for the override, in grape. Different story is Treteano, because Tatiano maturing September, September is too warm, too much light still on. And then it's it's hard to have a double try this in September. Because the rock up project wasn't a and, an extra character in the influencer was suitable for Gernaga. And not borogiano. In in the opposite in the Calvaryno, we have, and a blend of organic and Trevaryana D'SUave, because Cabarino represent, the most typical, probably, expression of, of an avocado soil where Trebiano gives gives a lot in the bassinet of a soil. So is it the perfect place, can be cultivated? That volcanic soil gives really gives the line some minerality as well, some really distinct minerality, which adds just this beautiful textural component to the line. Can you talk a little bit about the new winery? I think this is important. This is, big for Pierapan to be moving from the old Cantina to the new Cantina. Tell us about the new winery. Tell us when it opened and how are things going. The the project of the new winery has been, finished at, last September after five years, of, of an amazing job because, we were we have just to think that we remove one hundred and twenty thousand, meter cube of soil, which is the same amount of soil. If you put on a line on a on a line of tracker from the owner to then it's a ninety kilometer of highway. Okay. So it's an amazing amount of soil, removed all of them because the the the the the the the container is completely integrated in the in the bottom part of this hill. And in fact, is, is covered for free size, four. And just one front is, is offering outside, and is all covered with the stones. So it's a old project to be mitigated in in the classic area of soave. To be to be perfectly integrated. He's, he's an approach that's very new, because it has a lot of things so that works in a sustainability way. We have, the, an assistant to cover the, the water on top of the roof. So that's the water is covered to be reused for the irrigation. Because it's inside of the hill, we have an attempt to control naturally much better than in many other situations. So There are many, many things that has been well, well considerate, has been thought from my father that unfortunately couldn't, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't see the the end of this, of this, of of this project. And, for us, it was also an admission to finish this, this, this winery, because it is a winery dedicated to, to our father, Lonito. It's absolutely stunning. I had the chance to visit it last year, and, your father sadly passed away in twenty eighteen. And so a vision of your father, but carried on by you and your brother Dario. What I find so amazing about the winery is that when I we initially heard that you're gonna be building a new Cantina that was, you know, we were we in the United States were, of course, at first, we thought, oh, no. Because Your previous winery was in your family home. It was so charming, so intimate, but what I learned in arriving at your new winery is that it's not just for Puro Pam. This winery is so beautiful. And so stunning, it really elevates Swave, Glasgow as a whole. So congratulations on the new space. And I just wanna comment, it's so big, Andrea. You're going to be incredibly thin and in shape or walking around that winery trying to get from room to room. I know Dario had a little scooter that he was using to get around when I was Yes. He has a small scooter, electric scooter yet to move to move because it's too big. In a large space, was thought to be able to make, also a lot of things. And, things as a, the opportunity to mature, some, vintages of a Calvaryen or Iraq, all things that could not possible to do in, in the other winery because the space was so limited, and that was, not permit mix, also does a beautiful, projects, one of them will be presented soon at the integration of the winery, the fourteenth of April because we are going to present an unwind thought, since the beginning to celebrated the new winery and is Calvaryno Chinko Chinko is five in Italian and is a blend of, five inches of Calvaryno, matured quite a long time in in the cellar. And blended just last year. We are talking about a blend of, two thousand eight, two thousand nine, two thousand ten, two thousand eleven, and two thousand twelve. Matura, so the youngest matura at least the nears, the older one, fourteen years, and blended last year to celebrate the the new winery. It's a as a new, unique project for an special, It's really exciting. I can't wait to taste it. Talk as well about the new plantings that you have on the roof of the building. There's a hectare on the roof of the building as well, and you mentioned it's covered on three sides. And and for those of you listening truly, it is it it folds in the landscape. It's literally built into the hill. What do you have planted on the roof and and what are you hoping to do with that space? On top of the roof, we planted in a in a experimental vigna made with a PD variety. PVR, the the variety resistant to the main fungus that attacked the the plant is, the variety is a pinot blanc because it's not available swab in the market. So the idea that the project, could be mixed on a wine, a hundred percent sustainable because, even if the winery is already certificated organic since ten years, as you know, organic doesn't give hundred percent of sustainability because you use copper and sulfur. You don't use many pesticides. You don't use many chemicals from synthesis, but you don't have zero impact. What what what is interesting about this project is that the potentially we can have an accreditation of plant with zero impact in the ground. And, and and then, will be nice, I think, to to to start as a pine risk, wine with an wine hundred percent, sustainable in any part, even up, because, if you don't do contamination, but you produce, green mass because the leaves remain, obviously, and the cane and the shoots remain in the ground, you get more than what you, than than what you pick. So this is this is more or less the the the pilot, project that we want to to bring. It's beautiful, and and it it there's a clear line of innovation that runs through Puro Pan throughout the history. And I think, what's so amazing about the winery over the decades is that you've maintained this sense of heritage, you know, with native varieties and, non interventionist winemaking, and yet you always have an eye on how you can improve wine, not just for yourselves, but for the larger world around you, you know, as evidenced with Calvaryno, LaROCA, and now with these experimental plantings you have now. I wanna pause there. I want to just invite anybody to throw a question that they may have in the chat. And I wanna close, Andrea. I'll give you the final word, but something I wanna I wanna quote to you is something that, Ian Dogeter wrote in twenty eighteen And I find this to be an incredibly powerful statement about PR Pan. And he says I was in my teens. When thanks to my dad, I tasted my first great Italian wine, It was Piero Pan's nineteen seventy one, Swave, Calvaryna. No Italian white wine I had ever tasted up to that point was remotely close to the quality of that wine. I still remember every drop. The fourth time I drank a truly great white wine from Italy was a couple of years later, which tells you just how hard it was to come by great Italian white wines. This time, it was Pierapan's nineteen seventy nine Suave Calvaryno. That may help put things into perspective. Pierapana is a company in my life in wine and have done so with grace and style. Yeah. Is, is true. And, in the joking within once, Roman, he told me that, and thanks, of those wine. Now, I I decided to because as you probably know, before of, of what what is is is is now, he was a pediatric. He was a doctor. He was, he was living in Canada, and he was an pediatric, so a doctor of child. And because also because of this good wine, he changed he changed his profession. He changed his his job, and he became a critic of wine. Pier, pan, turning doctors to wine lovers since eighteen eighty. Well, I just wanna say thank you for joining us today. Again, if there are any last minute questions here, you can always throw them into the chat. But, Andrea, thank you for spending the time with us today. It's been it's always a pleasure catching up with you. And I just wanna congratulate you and thank you for the incredible integrity that you and your brother bring to your winemaking. The wines are absolutely spectacular. The twenty nineteen Laroca and Calvarena have sold out in the United States, and we're looking forward to the twenty twenty arriving in the next month or so. So thank you so much. I do see one question here from Paul. He wants to know. This is a great question, Andrea. At what age does Calvaryno develop bottle age flavors? Today, we have opened a few bottles. There was here and a couple of clear person. One was the familiar with the shangri la. Just a few hours later, he left. He left. He left the house office. He was, a familiar from Paris. We opened it in, beautiful, California two thousand thirteen and a wonderful two thousand ten. But last Monday, we opened on a two thousand free, for example, Calvarino. What age it depend depend depending off also from the dateages. I want to say at least the Calvarino start to show his character, his potential at least after five years. But the how long will will appear to the characteristic part of this depend also the from the character of the vintage, but we can easily say that, our our wine got easily over fifteen, twenty years because we are we are opening this two thousand three. Last Monday, we were here with the restaurant that was a two mission and start. And today, he did the order. And just this one did. Is it? Is it the same for La Roca as well? Yeah. I want to say that La Roca maybe, means, the beginning needs a little bit a couple of years, sir, a little bit before because we have to the effect of the the oak must be need a little bit more time to be integrated and tasted. So comparing calabarina, which is immediately probably Abert Larocca has this first couple of years that that you need times, but after that, ask Alberino supremely well. Very good. Well, I, we don't have any other questions. So I think, we covered a lot of ground here, Andrea, and I just wanna congratulate you again on the new Cantina. And looking forward to seeing you at Ben Italy, for those of you who may be attending Ben Italy. We look forward to seeing you as well. And thank you so much for your time today. Much appreciated. Okay. We hope you enjoyed this episode of our new maze row wine merchants series. The focus is on excellence, family, legacy, sincerity, and innovation. Tune in next Saturday for the next installment featuring another in-depth and intimate conversation with the Heritage Italian wine producers that form the core of the May's row Italian wine family. To learn more about May's Row wine merchant, and today's featured producer, see our show notes and visit their websites. Don't forget to subscribe and like our show and tune in to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hi guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.