Ep. 857 John Irwin Interviews Pietro Ratti | Maze Row Wine Merchant

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. We are thrilled to be presenting a seven part series with our fantastic partner, May's Row wine merchant. We are proud to present this series of interviews, diving deep into the heritage and legacy of May's Rose excellent Italian producers tune in every Saturday from March fifth through to April sixteenth as we take an intimate look at these respected historic producers and their role as part of the Maize Row family of Luxury wines. And remember to check out our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp, for incredible video content featuring a visit to Arjano. Hello, and welcome. My name is John Erwin, and I am here with Maisriel Wine Merchant. We are an importer in the United States world class producers with an uncompromising devotion to craft and we are honored to share the stories of our producers. And that's precisely what we'll do here today. Pietro Rati of the Rati winery is with us, and I'm proud to say our history with Rati dates back to twenty fourteen when our importer began. The Roddy name is one of the most famous in Barolla. In the early nineteen sixties, Renardo Roddy returned to his native Piedmont after ten years working in Chizano for Chizano in Brazil and France. And with regional knowledge, but a global perspective, He purchased a small lot of plot of land in the village of Lemura and set up a makeshift winery in the abandoned fourteenth century Avi Delinciada. It was there in nineteen sixty five where he made his first crew wine called March and Oscar after a historical name for the region. And around that same time, Renato made the first map of the barolo crews, effectively introducing the commercial idea of terroir to Italian wine. Winardo passed away in nineteen eighty eight. His son, Pietro, who's with us today, took over the estate at just twenty years old, and has been the winemaker for more than thirty years. And Pietro has continued his father's vision of elegant La Morolo, but has evolved the winery in fascinating ways. Pietro, thank you for joining us. I really appreciate you coming on and talking a little bit about your family's heritage and the winery. So let's start with the obvious question. How are you doing? I'm doing well. First of all, do you hear me? Yes? I do. Yep. Okay. Yeah. Okay, John. Nice to nice to hear you too. I'm doing well. We are just approaching in Italy. So we're almost getting, our suitcases, suitcase ready. It's a pretty chaotic time. I'm I have to I have to stretch to do some laundry today myself. So I will see you there. I can't wait. Let's start from the beginning, if you don't mind. Can you talk a little bit about the history of your state? And and specifically what I'd love to hear is what Barolo was like in the nineteen sixties and seventies. Of course, you weren't around for a lot of that, or you were very young. But I I think the audience here would benefit from a historical perspective. Yeah. Yeah. It was, of course, was much more different than today. Of course, you know, like any other region, probably one region in the world, Butolo was a important region because Barolo was already famous wine. But of course, the the what happened in the last fifty years has been, you know, it's huge, you know, big, big change. My father came from a north family of of, vidners because my grandfather was a veterinarian. My great grandfather was a doctor. So he had a totally different he was raised with a different, background, but he started winemaking. And, as you said, in the in the introduction, yes, it's right. He went to Brazil. But while he was in Brazil, making vermouth, he he was always thinking about coming back. And, of course, his dream was to make to make Barolo because he grew up here. So he knew, you know, he went to school in the wine school in Alba. So, you know, all his friends, some of them were making wine or Contero, you know, the Conternos, you know, the famous, so they're gonna just cause, you know, I saw, So when he came back in nineteen sixty five after, also visiting a couple of regions, you know, in France, especially including, of course, Bordeaux and Bergland, he realized that he was really the the the play the right place to to to make the change. You know, he was a man who made the change in Barolo and, of course, Barabaresco, and, of course, the the Permanente region back in that time. Again, influenced by by regions of of French where they were much more ahead at that time compared to here. Here was more it'll be behind, you know, like Italy was behind in general, you know, other people in, touscany, like, including the, and, you know, especially, Pierantino, or, or, So it was a time that was really the the time of a change. K? People they wanted to to make a change and they were waiting for leaders to play the role of leaders. And my father play was the right person at the right time at the right place. K? So he really became the leader of the change of of Marolo. What specifically is that change in your words? And and specifically what I'm interested in is, you know, I had mentioned that your father drew that first map of Cruise and terroir is, of course, important. But stylistically, What was wine like in Barolo in the nineteen sixties and seventies? And what was the style of wine that your father was making or interested in making? Well, the the the may the main change, of course, the big change that includes a a game. It's not just than just baroque, but, you know, follows another wines in in in the rest of Italy. But, of course, we talk about the the the most important regions of the wine regions in Italy, was the quality versus quantity. So back at the time, Barolo was just a a a name to put on the label. Okay? My father said, no. We don't have to put the name on the label. We need to make a a a a wine that has to be the wine that worldwide. If we put this bottle of wine in on a table, we can really compete to the the best, bordeaux or or, burgundy. So I really changed the style of winemaking, making, you know, more, elegant quality, in the in that way, starting from the vineyard, going to the bottle. So the bottle was really the you know, the the technique, the the the the technique he introduced was really to, to, to make more quality wine with introductions, also stainless steel tanks, temperature control fermentation, more elastic control, okay, to have wine's cleaner elegant, more, really with a different style compared to the the time. I think that piece is really interesting. And what I what I really find is so fascinating about it is this idea of modern barolo, traditional barolo. But at the time, that was not really something people were talking about so much. And what your father did was really bring just a cleaner style of winemaking, which has benefited all the role of producers regardless of how they may define themselves as sort of a Piamonte Peeno. One one little factoid that I found really interesting. I I've read this book PHR, I mentioned it to you Barolo Tar and roses, which was published in nineteen ninety. And I believe, is this true that your father worked with Diego Conterno on those first bottlings of March and Oscar in his first couple of bit to don't know who who you referred to. No. I think it it was really in those, the time was really the, e worked here in the Abi to make this, this wine. And as you are saying, so, basically, he's he was looking to the barolo not just a wine to wait for for thirty years. Okay? So very, over tiny, but the wine with more class, more elegancy. And and also with the with the so wine with fresher, more more flora, more more, wines, and you can you could also appreciate a little bit younger than than to a wait, of course, for a long time. That was stylistically. And then, of course, you're saying, the the the biggest, biggest, also, improve was also the the the the concept of single vineers, which opened up a huge, transformation of of the all, perception of the Barolo and Barbaresco and all the Pianta wise. Yeah. There was a there was a quote after your father passed away. I believe from Angelo Gaya who said that the official recognition of the cruise, if your father was still alive, would probably happen in about five years. But as it was, He was confident it would eventually happen, but I don't believe it happened until the nineteen nineties. Is that accurate? Yes. And then officially officially, it was two thousand and ten when the map of my father recognized by the official appellation Barolo, with mapping the old single. Of course, the map that was made by all the old producers was is is much, you know, the MGA. Map is a is a much wider, you know, includes all the different single vineyards while my father only mentioned the the the the historical, top ones and also made as you know, the the first classification because they never forget it. It's not just the the ideally venues, but it's also the to put, like, a really classification of quality, which is really the burgundy, more the burgundy style of, of, categorizing the the vineyards, you know, like, a grand crew and and Premierura, which is a concept even today. Fifty years later, we are not, we don't even talk about, you know. It's like, it's something that is very difficult in Italy to talk about something that, includes a an idea of of a class objective classification. Yeah. It's a charge topic. And and you mentioning the map currently of the MGAs or as you call them megas, which is effectively the cruise. There's no classification, like, grand cru and premier cru, just like you said, but your father famously did indicate which of the vineyards he felt like were grand cru vineyards. So they were vineyards like Kanubi and Rokeudelon and Seattle. Your father, I believe, was first to make a line bottled and labeled Rockett, Illinois, as well as the first to bot label a line Konka in the early nineteen seventies. Those today are your two single crew wines. Would you mind talking a little bit about Roke at Ellen's, Nutsiata, and Kunka, both historically and and just quality wise from a wine perspective? Yes. These are two vineyards, very different. I mean, they if you have if you have the chance to take side by side, you really get the concept of of crew, you know, of single vineyards. So may wise may quite in a similar way because the implication is very, is very, very gentle, so not not impacting at all. The style of wine, but the soil is slightly different. I mean, with our there are less than, it's like one kilometer apart. And, microclimate is different and soil is slightly different. And the wines are very, very different because Rockadalonsata is one of the most flora, elegant, refined, world class, high high class type of, of, typical Marolo from La Mora. So, you know, very floor. Again, the nose is fantastic, you know, more burgundy style. And then Conka, which is a little vineyard down below the winery, just or e but even the name, they're they're they they reflect the style of wine. K is a is a in Italian. It's a cliff steep hill. So you you want you you can, you you have to, understand that in the rocket, you know, a lot of erosion. So the soil is really pure, very, very, pure and poor. Pure and poor. So, it gives this very, very gentle touch to the wine. And then concha is the opposite, like, concha means in Italian, a a concha, like, a ball. So we are at the bottom of the hill. And, so the sole is is a little is a little richer So we get the barolo less floral, more, more, more dark. We say darker fruit, more black licorice, a little bit more concentrated. So it's really, very fasci fascinated. They were they made my father really so into the single vineyard, you know, because when you make wine and you and you make wines, that they they by tasting when they are, you know, in early stage, and they taste so so different. It's a it's a dream for Waimemaker, you know, to be able to have those wines so distinct and keep them distinct until the end and bottle them separately, you know, and and then in Biola, My father realized when when he first, you know, made it in in nineteen sixty five, Marjanas, you know, and then, and lately, conquer rock, he said, ma'am, then Abiola is is a unique grape and and the and is not the best way to keep them separately because there are, you know, very, very top, very good producer that they like to blend them, even a blend is a very sophisticated, way of of, approaching Nebula. Nebula is a very sophisticated grape, makes incredible high class wines. And so any anything you you you do, of course, in our style again, is to to keep them separately. But then again, you can you can blend them and it's really a a unique Is the way maker, I can only say we're I'm lucky because, you know, we have this, very, very, challenging situation of, you know, of making these wise and, and, and, and, and, you know, wiser that in an early stage, you can decide what to do. And then after, you know, the can age for so long, you know, they they and they keep developing in time in bottles. So it's a I feel like, privilege really to make, these these type of wines in this, in this place. Yeah. It's astonishing. A beautiful place, amazing wines. So I talked about the two famous crews that you work with, Conka, and Roca de la Nuncieada, But I guess it's probably good for me to zoom out a little bit and talk about the commune that both of those cruise or MGAs are located, which is the commune of La Mora. Can you talk about the commune of Lemura, which is where you're bottling March and Oscar comes from, and how those barrolos may differ from other communes in the barolo region? Yes. First of all, the barolo region, for people maybe they don't know. It's a it's about two thousand hectares of land. And, it's eleven communities. So it's not just one village. It's eleven small, tiny villages. La Mora is the is the large the largest commune, twenty five percent of the old barolo is made in La Mora. So let me what does it mean? It means that, in La Mora, there are several, I mean, several, a few sub zones. We have first of all, we have two side. I mean, we have three sides of La Mora. One side is the valley that goes, that goes down from La Mora. If it's castellano falleta. So it's a it's we are in close, for, Anunciata, where I am located when and we're conka and Oroca donutsata are located the vineyards and and, and part of the merchant ask, of course. And, so the altitude Lamora is is also the high speed Lamora goes, more than five hundred meters altitude. So to give you a a a where where the winder is located where these vineyards are located is about three hundred meters down. So, we have a it's really a a a unique slope with different, hill. It's a hillside, v different, we call, like, to use the word, language, which means, in a language, means, in a lingua tongs, because of different tongs, they they they make these unique, view also from from La Mora, from the peak. You see all these, lean, these long hills going down. And, the soil we have is classic, blue, soil. We have to remember that here we were a it's a all the soil here is, is, was the bottom of a sea. So it's a sea origin soil. So was a deposit of a bottom of a sea. So it's a it's a car carols salty. Our, soil is more blue, blue style that makes the barolo from La Mora more elegant. That's in general. That's the the style of the of the Barolo from Lamar, more elegant, more approachable when it's young. At the same time, you can you can also keep it for for many years, but that depends, of course, of the of the vintage, of the humidification of many, many, aspects, of course. But what makes the the barolo from from Lamora different from, let's say, is really the soil that makes the wine appear more elegant in other commute, maybe more more tonic or even more tight. So that takes a little bit more more time to open up when when the wines are are young. And my winer is, again, is All my vineyards are in La Mora. So lately, I also purchased some vineyard to be a higher altitude. First of all, for a for, to be ready for this, a change of climates, so to have something also a little bit cool in cooler spots and also to, to expand also in a direction of also working vineyards in a, in a, in other single vineyards. So we've talked, I want I wanna just touch on that really quickly. Can you tell us about that crew that you're gonna that you're working with now that's new to the winery? Yes. It's a new it's a new Vigna I I purchased in, in a twenty eighteen. But the first vintage on a single video will be twenty nineteen. It's called Sara Benari. It's quite high. It's four hundred and fifty meters. Facing south, but, compared to here, we're, all our vineyards in, in, in, in, let's say, Konka and, and, they are inside of this valley of of, that goes to, but all of that one, the Sara Denari is facing the mountains. So the other side, and it's fantastic. It's really beautiful. You have this, we call the Camonte Alps. Really beautiful. They give a special breeze to hear. I mean, to these vineyards, and and, the the view is, is is really beautiful. When it's, when I first went there, did you know the vineyard, when they when they offered this vineyard to me, I saw it. They say, well, how this is a place to live. I would move, to live here because the view on the mountains is spectacular. And then and this is a ball or something theater that that facing south with this, looking the the the the the mountains again, and, The soil is similar to to, down here, but, the the climate is different. So here we talk about microclimate because in two hundred meters, the climate is different. So the wine is different because more because of the climate, rather than the soil. So it's very, very fascinating. So when I saw it, I say, yeah, let's I want to challenge to make a a a also another single vineyard up, up to this this level, and it's really very, very, very, very, It happened. I mean, I'm very, very, happy. It's a wine compared to the to the vineyards down at three hundred meters. It's a little bit more it's a higher cooler. So more nervous. Okay, elegant but nervous. Fantastic. Very, very, very, very, very nice, very, very happy to to, to make that one. It took, again, one year just to understand a little bit more, the vineyard, and we are still learning about the vineyard because when you when you get the vineyard of of Nebiola, in our region, already planted, of course, very good planting, plantation, you know, thirty years old and more. So fantastic, but still needs a is a is a for us, some, how do you say experience to understand, you know, because every every vietener is his own approach to a vineyard. So you need to make the vineyard following what you want to to get out of the vineyard. Okay? So it's very important to, take some times, you know, if you, if you, three, four years just to, adjust the vineyard. It's like a person. No. You have to to follow what what you want to get from out of the video. So, and it's still, we're still working on that, and we get, but we're very, very happy about, from the first vintage. About the the result? I'm really excited to taste the wine. Twenty nineteen is when that when your first bottling's gonna come out. And the wines I've had from Sarah Denari have, like you said, a nervous energy to him attention or a spine. And, I'm so excited to get a chance to taste that bottling. I think it's gonna be incredible. We've talked about vineyards. We've talked about the region. We've talked about your father, and we've talked about his influence. What I'd like to do is talk specifically about you, actually. And I I'm interested in that time period in the late eighties and early nineties. You were just twenty when you took over your father's estate. How did you manage that transition? Transitions are never easy, but, are always made by people. So in any any situation, you know. So, for me, I have my cousin, Massimo, that, Marcio Martinelli worked with my father for many years. So he was really a good, person to to to move the the the the one and for my father to me, it was my partner and my, and my cousin. And, so it was a very good, then I had a staff in the cellar also very, very important because, you know, again, wineries are made by people. So so you need to have a good, staff to to react because when when when a when a a very important person, like my father, he passed away with was, young and very energetic, so he was controlling everything. It's very important that you have the staff also not falling apart, you know, like, to be all, concerned about. And, of course, you know, the people that want it to be, to follow, you know, to keep going. And and the best way is to keep going what, what my father used to do. Of course, then by time you realize you you you adapt, you know, techniques, you change, you know, they're wine is not something you, you you make the same for for fifty years. Of course, you maintain, the the the inspiration. You maintain the, you know, what what represents for your family, your, the name of your winery, but then you need to adapt also so many changes that you need to always to be open and, and, and the radio also to to adapt, you know. So it's very, very, important to, to be open for, for for changes. And, of course, was for me, the was was not easy. I tell you the truth at the beginning because I was twenty. You know, I didn't want to to work at twenty, you know, in the, you know, I wanted to have fun, but, but life sometimes, it's not like, you are planning, and so they said to me, no. You you must work. And I said, okay. Let's, well, what does it what does it mean work? Yeah. To work. Okay. Okay. Let's try that. Because I was, of course, I was trained to be a white maker, but I was still young. I mean, I I studied white maker, but to study. I wanted my father wanted me to go to to study in maybe you you you see Davis. He wanted to meet to to expand a little bit the the knowledge also, you know, or experience in other places. But but anyway, you know, life is, you need to always to get, what life offer to you. So, I think, I did well. I also tried to make always to keep always the the the winner in, in a good, good way, good position, and, and, expanding with, where, where, when I could, where, I bought the first vineyard. I was twenty two years old with some money my father left to me. And I went to my brother. I remember. And I said, ma, it was at the time, he was staying Milan, leaving Milan. My brother was studying there. I said, wow, why do we have to buy our vineyards? I said, wow, yeah. I think it's better to buy vineyards, but all the vineyards now, then later, and he said, no. No. I think you're crazy. I said, no. No. No. No. No. I'm so from from that time on, so I would I mean, basically, any everything I I I got from my father, but I mess every euro, every the point of, the time was literal, interveners, because I thought, that was, was the time to to, because Also, remember, when I when my father passed away, we used to buy eighty percent of our grapes. It was very, you it was very common. All the wineries in the region, they were like that. There were we were buying grapes from all our neighbors. And I said, but this is not the I think it's I think, something's gonna change. We need to buy more vineyards. And and from that, day going on, I I, I'm still buying, I bought the last vineyard, two days ago. So it's still a small piece. Small pieces. Can you talk about where that vineyard is? No. I just no. But it's I I buy all the time, but not in parole. I mean, Barrera is now untouchable. I bought some pieces around, you know, I keep buying, when there is an I like I like land. I think it at the end, it's always, something that, remains. So I don't buy homes and houses, but I I love, I like to buy to buy land anyway. So and also, I tell you also something more that, when I when I when my father passed away, also, was a time of was a a time of a big changes also in the in the in the barolo zone that, my father Just when he passed, I didn't see really the big change it was happening because, was more in the nineties, passed away in eighty eight, and there was more the Barolo boys movement. So, you know, small barrels, big big change. And I realized myself, there was a time that we just needed, you know, when you feel like you're not, I was too young for that, for that, movement. So I said, my, it's better if we if we keep it, you know, we I realized I was I I couldn't play that in that, in that, moments because also, you know, my father had also a big, very big personality. So I just said, ma, it's better if we if we, invest by vineyards, you know, we prepare, and then it's gonna be another, you know, a better time, later. So and that was a smart move also to maintain our direction. You know, and, and then to be able then later on also to expand, more also our, our, bottles, but also our labels, our image as well. So it was, at that time, I was not ready to play to play in that time. My my I I felt like the the time was to wait. Okay? So anything was Absolutely. My my impression is that know, when they talk about modern or traditional barolo, which I think that argument is reductive these days. Anyway, but speaking of that barolo boys moment, what, has struck me about Rati is there's always been a middle path with Rati. There has been some traditional practices, but a fair bit of innovation always with a mind towards better quality and more terroir. And I think that continues today, which, is resulting in really, really fabulous Wine's Pietro. You talked about transition. You talked about some of this vineyard land. I know Rati today is one hundred percent a state. When did the change in the barolo go from buying wine to then being one hundred percent a state fruit? But there was a progress, you know, little, little by little, it takes a little bit of time because, you know, you need to get more vineyards and so but I think already in about in the year two thousand, we were all, almost all, twenty years ago. We were almost all, maybe we're all one nine percent state, barolo. But a lot of growers. So, it's not a a big, a big, even if you buy grapes, it's not a big problem. If you buy, like, for instance, okay. My my, you know, under the biolo, that we make, you know, the lung and biolo, Katie, we don't have a lot of vineyards there. We predominantly buy grapes from, from growers. We've been buying since nineteen sixty nine. So and it's fantastic like that. So if you have the right suppliers and grapes that, you know, you've been, working with them for a long time, and and and it goes well like that, they they, you know, they work like you want, then you help them, they help you. You know, it's it works really well. For Barolo, it's a different story because we were able to have more vineyards here, and we, of course, we focus on the Marolo. So but even if you have a good suppliers, dedicated to the vineyards, they make grapes as you want, it's a re you can really get, good grades. Of course, you need to follow them. And, because, it's very, very important to follow what, what they do. But, And and there is still a lot of producers who buy top, top, top grapes in the, in in the area. It's very important to have reliable suppliers for lawn and and and and by time, you really build build up a a very, very strong, relationship. Of course, we before we in the when my father passed away, again, we were buying eighty percent of our grapes. Now we buy, twenty percent. Again, mostly in the in the in in in the in the in the in the in the in the in the Barmeraldasti because I have also some suppliers around the, because you're a nasty, but that's the, but of but, and it works well like that. It works well like that. Sure. Yeah. It's it's astonishing to think of buying grapes from the same suppliers for fifty more than fifty years now. Twenty nineteen was your fiftieth anniversary vintage of the longue nebbiolo. It's amazing. Yeah. And and it's a nice story also behind the wine because as you probably know, John, also we we behind the wine, you know, there was this, very good, I always tell the story about, you know, my, my, the good, the good friendship about between my father and and Bruno Chacosa, and they they, Bruno, at that time, I had my father to find that these families, the suppliers of grapes, and, and he said that in the rural land, you know, the other side of the other tunnel river, And, and then my father was was already making Barolo, and and he was searching for grapes in that in that area because he knew that, you know, you could make him, and if you all know, different from Barolo, you know, a little bit, you know, more even light lighter in a good way, you know, that you could drink younger. And so he, he went to Bruno, Bruno, and said, ah, Renato, I show you some, you know, some very good vineyards with his families, and then there is only one thing that, the that they also make Arnais. But And Bruno said, I I buy Arnese from them. You buy Nebula from them. We share. We shake hands. And it's fantastic because since then, we talk about nineteen sixty nine. We do the same. We don't we don't buy. He buy. They buy now. Of course, Bruno now and not his, her father anymore, but they still buy, Arnese from the same families that we buy, Nebula. And it's a fantastic story. So in fifty years, no contract, nothing shake hands. Between, friends and it goes well like that. So it's a very nice story of, how, you know, relationships and also, you know, how, this region is also made of nice stories. No. Yeah. This this, tradition of fellowship that helps build the whole region. And something I think your father embodied just it was was so, he was such an important ambassador for the region as a whole. And but, you know, I'm so interested in the wines that you are making now and how those wines have changed over the decades. You mentioned in an article for wine spectator that you've taken a more empirical approach to winemaking. And I think that really shows, especially in recent vintages. Can you talk about how winemaking has changed for you over the decades? It's taking over at twenty years old, of course. But, you know, you've been the winemaker now for more than thirty years. What has changed in thirty years for you? I think what changed is not, me, and it's not the winemaking based on me, but it's based on on what we have outside. And when I say this means climate. K? So climate change is a it's a it's not a a just a way to say something, but it's a it's a real, real, big, big change that we are following. And so as a waymaker, it's not just me, all my friends, also, you need to adapt, your verification to what's happening outside. Okay. So if in, in the nineties, it was easy. Okay. In the eighties, the the main problem was rain. So we had to adapt to the rain, you know, no grass, taking the leaves away, trying to, so it was really, the, you know, the fall was very challenging. Now it's the opposite. We have the sun. So we need to to to to to try to, we need to hide the, the grace from the sun, you know, and so it's a it's a big, big, big, challenging time. So and it's a it's changing through through time. So you adapt your verification two thousand and three was probably the the the, I would say, the turning point. The that was really the the the big challenging year. You remember, it was super hot. We were not we we're totally unprepared. So we burn, we cooked our grapes, under the sun all over Europe because we didn't know how to approach, especially I'm talking about the cool, you know, the the north, the north earth, lattitude, the places. And after that, we realized that something was changing, and that was really a a big change for us to open up our eyes. Of course, before we already have, like, two thousand, we ended nine ninety seven, we ended nineteen ninety, already, but what not at the level, as as a two thousand and three. And and suddenly from that time on, we we started to realize we need to to adapt our ability culture to this biggest change. And and then remember, why make it always following the the what's happening in the, in the vineyard. So it's always an adaptation. You need to adapt, I mean, to change the the the the the the way making, if something changes outside because, and that's the the main the main, that that that really what what made me changing also this, identification in the last years. And then I would say in the last really ten years, maybe even even, six years, seven years since maybe twenty, fifteen, really, big change, big, big, big change. But in the last, it's a progress. You know, you don't you when you when you were to adapt, you don't make a big, big change in, all of a sudden, everything changes because also you need to it's an adaptation of of what's changing. And it takes, slowly, you know, little steps to reach a point that, you are really in a in a good, in a good way. But, again, the most important, the adaptation, again, is, or modification or just is is really the the vineyard, agronomic aspects of the vineyards more than more than the winery. What are some of those things that you're doing in the vineyard that are helping with climate change? Of course, you need, first of all, grass, you know, a lot of grass. So we mow the grass. We keep the grass, between rows. We, we leave more leaves to to create like a almost like a kind of a of a of a hat or a cap, you know, as you say, but, you know, to protect the the the grapes. We keep the grapes more inside the leaves that before we used to expose more the the the grapes to the outside of the leaves. And lately, we put, these nets to let's say the truth, the nets, they're they're born for, they're used for, to protect from a hail, which is our very big enemy for the in in the region, we can have this very, very cereals, hailstorms. And, but we put the nets also to prevent the from sun. So it's a very good, to avoid the the sun, sunburns from direct light. And all those elements are all made to protect more and more and more the grapes because because at the end, we want elegant, fresh wines. Okay. That's that's the characteristic of the wines from from Himalante. We are in the latitude where we can make because of where we are, our climate, our soil, our grapes, we make incredible, fresh, elegant, wise. And and we cannot destroy this, characteristic by by this, change of the of the climate change. So that's that's why we need to to avoid, to go into that, it to change really the flavors, the style of, of of wines only because it's warm to hot or to dry, we need to adapt. So that's why we need to, that's that's the way we we we do, basically. Yeah. Speaking of elegant and fresh, I'm wondering if you can share a few notes on the twenty eighteen vintage. That's what's current release of your barolo. Can you tell us about the twenty eighteen vintage what people can expect from a style perspective with the wines? Yes. In twenty eighteen, it's interesting because very different from twenty seventeen. Twenty seventeen was, more, a a hot vintage, warm vintage, but again, we handle it to make wines elegant. And it when when a wine is a more warm, you get them wines. It'll be more, oil, oil pulling, and the tanning, a little bit hard, but still in elegance style. Then twenty eighteen was a fresh vintage. So beautifully, elegant and, and, very extremely elegant visit. For me, it's like a, really vintage, from the the the old days. I taste some images from my father from the the eighties or, you know, really, very, very nice, type of it, very extremely elegant, fresh, Of course, it's not a vision with a lot of power. So you're not looking for power, but you're looking for finesse, again, urgency. It's not a vision with a lot of color, in general. Of course, La Mora, we have less color than other villages. So if La Mora is, less color, This is also viewed as with not a lot of color, but with the incredible balance, you I mean, you really drink it like, you can drink a bottle, in one night, in one person. It's very, very, easy to drink, easy to like. It's already very well made now. How long it's gonna age. We don't know because it's always early to say, but I think the balance is, it's gonna be a surprise. I'm sure it's gonna be surprising the, in the long aging because it's really well, well, well, well balanced. I I love the wine. I I think it's, ethereal, it's lifted. It's really beautiful, very, very pretty. So I think, I I think you're absolutely spot on. I think twenty eighteen is gonna perform better in the bottle, maybe than people expect, but it is certainly a vintage that is really drinking well. Right now. So if you get a chance, please try that those twenty eighteen's, especially from Lemora, especially from Razi, because I I find them to be incredibly elegant Pietro. I I mean, we use the word probably too much, but There's no better way to describe these wines. There's so, so much for that. There is only only one problem of eighteen is the quantity because the the the production has been a a smaller vintage in general. Even it's also seventeen, both seventeen and eighteen, there were there have been a quantity small because of the seventeen because of the frost, eighteen because of the spring very wet. So we lost a lot of, crop because of the disease in a early stage of the of the summer. So in general, it's a small, it's a small, crop. So that's the only the only main problem of of the vintage because, because of the quantity. But, again, as you're saying, it's really, a beauty, a a beauty type of vintage. You talked about, climate change and how you've changed some things in the cellar as well. How has your wine making changed? Has it changed at all in the Over the course of thirty years, I'm sure there's been some changes, but even recently has anything changed to respond to what the land is giving you? Yeah. Big changes because before we could we could play more play say play, but let's say, if before was a little bit more, not easier, but, if you it's hard to explain. But let's say the climate was easier in a way that if we had something all more more, let's say, you know, remember that that Naviola first is a tonic grape. So you need to work the toning, and that needs time. Okay? Time and verification, timing aging, timing bottle. And and and when you you you make a wine that spends a long time, especially in the cellar, of course, you rock the wine, you move the wine. If before it was easier to to do that, no problem with air contact. Now it's a it's very, very challenging. So we try to make modifications in general with no we're reducing the the, really, the exposed of of the wine to to oxygen. So it all, you know, using a lot of nitrogen to to avoid that, not racking at almost not racking at all for two years in barrels. Very, very, we don't use new oak. I mean, of course, sometimes we have some new barrels, but but, it's really because you need to rotate, of course, the barrels, but also very, very neutral. So aging is really a process to mature the tany, but really in a very gentle way. So the big change has been has been made his debt, you know, really gentle, gentle touching in the way to express the vineyard as much as we can. Even humidification is very, you know, skin contact very long. Temperature is quite not too high in order to have the the fermentation max ratio very, very long, which means thirty to forty days of skin contact, which is a big big change for Rati before we used to have a less, skin contact, let's say, ten, fifteen days skin content now, we are about thirty to forty days, which with the submerged cap. Very fascinating technique gives a much more, complexity to align. We lose maybe a little bit of color to the skins, after, all the time, but we gain in, in incredible finance, urgency, and especially complexity. And in that way, also the wine, when it's, fine straight in barrels and the wine again stays in barrels for two years. No racking. Then we put back the wine in, in tanks, and we bottle it. So it's really a a very, very Gentle, gentle, gentle, soft touch. That's what we, I try to achieve to do, you know, from from the berry to the bottle, you know, from the grape to the to the to the bottle with no no manipulation at all. Okay? So, which means that every vintage is different. Everyone is different. Every vineyard is different, but that express is really the the unique of of our terroir at the very, very high, high level. Yeah. It's it's amazing, to follow the wines over the years, and they've always maintained this consistency of elegance But it's so fascinating to know that with that consistency actually comes a lot of change in order to respond to the environment around you. You know, Pietro, I I think we've got a lovely conversation, and and I wanna just close by saying that, of course, Rati is a winery of incredible legacy, but also that profound consistency that unending march towards elegance, that continuous process to respond to the land the environment and always bringing lines of finesse and those unmistakable flavors of Earth mint flowers, licorice, and with time, even truffles. So I'll just close really quickly here with one, note from a book, that was released in nineteen nineties, a British book by an author by the name of Michael Garner called Barolo Tarin roses. And he talks about the last time he saw your father. And he says in deference to the ceremony that must always surround fine wine. We chatted about barolo while the wine had a chance to breathe, forbidden alcohol by his doctors, Roddy drank in the wine through its perfumes, smell those truffles, that licorice, the flowers, the mint, the old flame rekindled. It seemed almost as if he were covering Barolo for the first time. Anyone who would suggest that Barolo is not capable of delicacy and subtlety cannot have tasted a mature Rati wine from a great vintage. I think those words are as true now as they were then. Bravo on, all of the work that you do. I'm sure at thirty years in, it it it's just your life. But to us, the wines are truly magical, truly of a specific place. So thank you. We do have a couple questions from the audience, Pietro, that, we'll close with here. Yep. Valentina was wondering, the Rati wise are currently imported to Russia and She was wondering if you have any plans to, start exporting to Russia. Yeah. We have a couple of a couple of small customers in Russia. We don't we don't sell a lot to Russia. It's not really a big, a very big market for us. So we have a couple of clients here, that we we we do sell one in Moscow. And and then, yeah, but, it's not a it's not a very big market. Compared to other markets. Yeah. Yeah. And then Paul was asking, what vintage can a consumer experience a mature complex barolo? I asked this question with respect to collectors who want to taste classic barolo now with bottle age. So is there a specific vintage where you feel like maybe that kind of primary aromas of barolo are starting to turn to primary and secondary aromas are starting to turn to tertiary where you think there might be a balance. I know twenty eight sixteen was a classic vintage, for example, but those wines are probably very long lived. I recently enjoyed a two thousand nine, which I thought was absolutely beautiful of any other vintages that you think would that sort of capture the great complexity of Barrilla. Oh, yeah. There are so many. Well, of course, the prob as you are saying, you're right. I mean, sixteen, sixteen, fifteen, there are still videos that you can still wait. Thirteen as well, very classic, solid firm, still wait. I would go maybe even ten. I would go maybe to, twelve, eleven, you know, Vintages that they get now, what, ten years of aging. So, it's a good stage. And then I would go to, maybe, the one of the top that, it's really it's I think now I mean, I see I talking about my my barolo, and then I don't know, in the in general, but Like, two thousand now is, perfect drinking. Perfect drinking because it's I don't know how ago it was a it wore warm, nice vintage. I tasted recently, it's really very nice. That you can it's not a reason to wait. Ninety nine, maybe, you can see wait, but, of course, it's also beautiful. So, but, you know, I want I want but remember this, you know, Barolo is a very predictable wine, okay, in the way that now we have eighteen, for instance, four years old, we know more, like, you know, more floral. It's already developing, but it's beautiful now. Of course, then we move to, let's say, another five years time. So why would they have ten years life that you start to get what you're you you were saying, John, you know, a little bit of of third, tertiary, ter ter tertiary aromas. And then you get a certain level of so all wise, around ten years, you you get those, you know, good balance of youth and and age. Then if you want to indulge yourself to a more aged wise, then you you move to a fifteen or twenty years, and then you get more of these, of course, the neuroma truffle of mushroom, you you really can play on that. Of course, you need to adjust the foods to do to those type of of wise. But it's very predictable in stages, you know, five years, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, and and so on. Then the thirty years, of course, is a big, it's another challenge. It's another style of wine, of course. Then you can go, oh, you have two fifty years. But In the first twenty years, you really can pay based on what you want. But just remember that war vintage, they anticipate a little bit, cool vintage, they postpone a little bit. Okay? That's you know, the be the main difference from, a warm to a to a so, like, ninety nine and two, like, ninety nine and two thousand. Twenty two thousand is ready to drink. Ninety nine is still young. Two thousand and one, maybe still, or even one, you can still wait. So that's, that's always the way, but it's a very, very predictable wine. So if you like youth, stay in the in the last you know, eighteen, seventeen, sixteen, fifteen. If you like a little bit of age, go to, you know, twelve, eleven, ten, nine, eight, if you want to have a little bit more, even more age, go to two thousand, you know, one, two thousand, ninety nine, ninety eight, nine ninety seven. Yeah. And just to wrap us up, I I think it's it's important to note too that. If a wine can age, that doesn't mean it's not delicious now. I I really do like some of the current vintage. I like drinking barolo on current vintage. I find the wines just as magical now as as sometimes as they are in ten or fifteen years in some cases. But, but yeah, it's a it's a wine of incredible length And that legacy of your father of bringing that kind of cleanliness to the winemaking, that that approachability in the, in the early stages of the win, it's it's really what, I think has made Barolo such a a massive success across the globe. It's an amazing legacy, but, you know, thirty years on Pietro, you have left quite the legacy of your home. So thank you for spending the time with us today. Really appreciate it. It's always a wonderful conversation with you, and I know that I will see you next week in verona. We hope you enjoyed this episode of our new maze Row wine merchant series. The focus is on excellence, family, legacy, sincerity, and innovation. Tune in next Saturday for the next installment, featuring another in-depth and intimate conversation with the Heritage Italian wine producers that form the core of the maze row Italian wine family to learn more about May's Row wine merchant, and today's featured producer, see our show notes and visit their websites. Don't forget to subscribe and like our show and tune in to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Living's Denon. I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. 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