Ep. 102 Monty Waldin interviews Roddy Ropner (Wellsprings Wine) | Monty Waldin's Let's Talk Wine Biz

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Walden. Today's guest is Rodie Robner. Rodie owns a wine import company based in Hong Kong called Well Spring wines. Welcome. Thank you. So let's wind back before you got to Hong Kong. What we you doing before then to get into the wine industry? Well, I I came to the wine industry, via Christis, actually. My first career was with Christis. I spent twenty years there. But in in London or, started in London, and then I moved to Hong Kong, back to London, then to Japan, then to Singapore. All with Christis always. All with Christis. So twenty years with Christis. So when did you start with them? In London, in the Chinese department. In which year are they? Nineteen. Eighty seven. Right. That's quite early in the game. Yes. Was that as prices were taking off a border on prima with the sort of Parker, eighty two vintage, that kind of thing? Well, actually, no. I was in the Chinese department then. But absolutely, one of the things that we I became very aware of, when I moved to Asia was the the level of interest in wine. So when you say you're in the Chinese world, was that, I mean, auctioning paintings and fine art or was that wine? Fine art pulses Okay. So, actually, I spent twenty years as a Chinese art specialist and in management role. And then, when I left Christis, I started doing wine courses studying study. So, actually, I'd always been interested wine, but it was having the having left Christis and having a bit of time to do what I wanted. That's when I started to become more involved in wine. So why did you leave Christis? What was the gap? Twenty years in one company, then I thought I'd set up my own business, and Which was what an import business for fine art. No. Not at all. I thought it was gonna be an art dealer. He's not gonna be an art dealer. Yeah. And then I started to do some wine course. So hang on. Hang on. How did how did that go? That that was obviously skating over that part of your life? No. It it but basically, if you weren't Christies, you work pretty much twenty hours a day. You work flat out around the auctions, which happen maybe four or five times a year. You travel around the world. So you don't have much time to do the things that you wanted to do. So when I left Christis, I thought, yeah, I'll play golf. I'll take wine lessons, and I I knew I wasn't gonna be a professional golfer. So I started to enjoy the wine lessons. I did, WSTT level two, level three, did the diploma. And during the course of that, some they said, oh, you seem interested in wine, why didn't we start a wine business? I was in Hong Kong. I said, oh, yes. I know a few people in the wine business. That that that seems like a good idea. So we started, a wine business in Hong Kong about, about ten years ago. Hong Kong ten years ago. How easy was it for West and to do business there. I would say, actually, it's very easy to do business in Hong Kong, and, perhaps my advantage was I've actually been going to Hong Kong for the last thirty five years plus. So I knew quite a lot of people. And through Christians, I knew quite a lot people and language skills? Well, I have got a degree in Chinese, and I spent a year in China in nineteen eighty two, but my Chinese is lousy actually. So, in Hong Kong, you can get by with English. That's classic in British University systems are just handing out degrees, like, confetti to complete it. You know, I I've got a degree in, so I'm a complete idiot in the degree. What's yours in, man? A history thing. They should all bug all about, though. Anyway alright. So that was so you're in Hong Kong, and you you decided to give this, one business to go. Yeah. So what was your focus initially? Was it just fine wine, or were you importing muscadet one euro liter? No. Absolutely. So that the point was to try and find small family owned producers that we could work with. And the reason for that was that, I didn't particularly want to deal with, let's sales managers or marketing managers, I want to deal with small producers that we could hunt out. Direct dialogue with a wine grower and not some intermediary. Exactly. And, so started important. I actually work I suppose classically working with with French in Berkeley. Apparently. And then, so at that time, that's what people in Hong Kong were interested in. So I started importing San Bordeaux, and then, I moved to Burgundy, and, then the sort of, if you want to say the, the sort of Italian epiphany was, was someone said, oh, why don't you go to, barbaresco. It's not unlike burgundy. But it was part of France, wasn't it, sir? Yes. Exactly. So, I moved there. Had a fantastic tasting at a winery in barbaresco in fact. And then, a year later, went back to do another tasting, and then met the owner, we started talking about working together. So it it really would extend from that sort of chance. Was this also at the time when when prices for those finer Italian wines were getting due recognition in the market it, or are they still competitively priced compared to border and burgundy? They were competitively priced, and I think what what was slightly appealing, and I I think perhaps that's sort of what I've always enjoyed is is to be a bit ahead of the curve, particularly as as as we've just seen in in the barbaresco taste thing. It's not as well known as Barolo, but the quality is there. So for me, it was interesting to find someone that's a good good producer, that wasn't well known. And it involved obviously a bit more work to explain Barbara. But, that was that's it's more satisfying. So when you say getting into the curve, was your decision to study Chinese a strategic move to a very clever girl at my school who, and I must have been, it was probably the early eighties who was studying Mandarin, and I thought, why would you wanna do that? And she really and she's obviously got a career out of it was that were you were you the same? Or did you just fancy studying or reenter? I think I've always been interested in Asia. I remember telling my father I was going to study Chinese. He wasn't very happy. What did he expect you to study Latin? No. I think he wants to do a contingency or something like that or something sensible. But anyway, so, I I could've done a levels in French and Spanish. So I thought I can do those anytime. Go to France, Spain, anytime. China seemed to me very interesting. It was, and it was very interesting. But, it was, again, perhaps a little too far ahead of the game because by when I graduate created. There were not that many jobs involved. So you bided your time. Bided by time. And started selling Barbara Escosco to the Chinese. Well, yes, that's another story. So, initially, we had planned to, do business in China, but it became, increasing obvious that it was much easier to do business in Hong Kong than in China. So in terms of was this before the handover, the ninety seven handover, the British? No. So this is this is so I I was still a christie's in ninety seven. So, I didn't start the wine business till two thousand nine. So this was when Hong Kong was, again, part of China. Hong Kong has, been, you know, since part of China and, things are booming. And, of course, the big thing at that time was, I think, two thousand eight, they just import the the drop the import tariffs. So in fact, wine was wine was on everybody's mind. I mean, the the market was booming at that stage. Prestige wines were popular for what reason at that time. Yeah. It's quite interesting. Before that, the tax had been up to eight percent. So they were prestigious. Any wine that was expensive was prestigious. And that was part of the cachet that you could afford before the wine. So if it was expensive, it automatically was prestigious. It it gained some cachet from that. What about the gift giving? In Hong Kong, that's not not so much part of it. I mean, there is a lot of gift giving, but it's not not the same extent as in mainland China. But the one thing about Hong Kong is that when the tariffs dropped, the number of importers increased, the number of schools increased, are the numbers of wines coming in increased. We had two new MWs So the level of interest in wind was was huge, and people love learning. So there was a a lot of, you know, it was a boom time running. So you started sending Barbara Esco? Yes. And then? My idea actually was to, try and do something like along the Bordeaux like it's perhaps to take for the different communes, someone from the different communes in in barbaresco, and then maybe do the same thing with with Barrellas. But actually, my, the people that I was working with, in barbaresco are quite, quite well known. It's called Mark Marquesi De Grace. They also have quite a lot of wines. I was quite happy just working with them, and, that felt sort of quite comfortable to me. And now, then last year, I moved, my wife and I, my wife's Japanese, actually. So we we moved back to Japan, but I've been living in Asia for about thirty something years and moving every few years. So we decided we better settle down. So we decided to settle down. But the two options were to go back to England or to move to Japan, and you tell me which is a better option. I don't I or is it that I don't know. Okay. You must come back. So, we decided to move to Japan where I've lived on three previous occasions and worked there. So, that that seemed like a natural fit. So, apart barbarresco and Pier Montez weren't. Do you are you working with any other regions in Italy for the Hong Kong market? We we did have a a Swave, but I think it was just a very commercial. But if it was a Swave price to add in a hundred euros of bottle like a Barbarresco, is it No. It doesn't work like that. No. I mean, the the Barb rescues that that that I was selling were, yes, on the one hundred euros. The Swaboy was, basically, my business was selling to people who I would say were interested enough in wine, but Hong Kong's exactly where people are, at time for. So they call up and say, Rodie, look, I'm having dinner next week. I want a really nice red wine. I know. The following day is my, my teenage daughter's party. Give me a cheap white wine. So I've got this nice swave for you. Isn't a bit frustrating though. No. No. Not at all because the advantage for me, generally, in the the good thing about the Hong Kong market, I found, was it on the whole, people would start off by what have you got, and price would come second. I don't what that's like in in other markets, but I I didn't feel that I had to compete with people on price. And now the market with the sort of crackdown on, with this, you know, the sort of, which you mentioned before the gift giving culture in China. Again, I think my my whole step strategy was not to try and sell to the same people that everyone else is selling to. It was it's more in that that sort of market of of people who are interested, but they're busy, they're traveling. So it hasn't really been affected by that. It's perhaps I'm selling mostly to private channels. So that it is more effective by things like bachelor's leaving. We talk about people that work in the finance industry that get reposted or Exactly. That's what the lawyers But they sort of I mean, there's a bit of a generalization, but again, is it just about the status symbol? I want an expensive Italian wine or I want a Babaresco. Well, I think, once once you get to that level, spend spending a hundred euros of bottle people, people are incredibly knowledgeable. And the great thing, about Hong Kong was that, you know, we've got things like the Hong Kong wines are I see, for example, where they have these amazing tastings that people are allowed to go to. But there's a huge interest in in learning, and there's some very knowledgeable people. Isn't one of the advantages of, working with Italian wine that's gonna seem to seem quite ironic given the horrendous sort of scandals that have affected the fine wine market particularly for Red Bordeaux and Burgundy with Fakery. We won't mention any names, but, you know, there have been convictions of real sort of household names almost in the wine industry of famous Bordeaux, and that hasn't doesn't really seem to have happened so much with people trying to imitate Barolo and barbaresco because they are not as expensive as latur or lafitte or lapao. Has that been an advantage you think, or does that not really enter into the equation? I I'm sure that in the two thousand sort of with a huge rise in prices, support of, and then both indeed. Ten eleven, twelve, those sort of, at that time, people started to look elsewhere. I don't think that it was a question so much of of faking in in harm, although that issue has been raised later. But think it was a question of price. Suddenly people think who've been collecting border. I think, do I really want to pay three hundred, four hundred, five hundred euros a bottle when there's plenty of other good wines out of that if you buy? Yeah. Do you think that's gonna be the future course terms of global economy. I could definitely see that happening. I just that that the way the prices have gone for for first of the border and then for then for Burgundy, people start looking around, and then they they think, okay. So it's Italy at the moment of white, you know, Spain. Spain next or all. Isn't that one advantage of working in the fine art market? If you spend a lot of money on a, I don't know, a Monet, for example, you have it for life. Yeah. Unless you do something really stupid, it's just not gonna deteriorate. You can always enjoy you can always look at it with a flipping bottle of wine who opened it and it's corked, or it's been adulterated, or it was just terrible wine in the first place. It got overrated by some not know it all critic. I I was in the Chinese porcelain about So there's always a danger that someone will break your vase. I suppose that could be a problem. Or drop your bottle? Or drop your bottle. Yes. Do your prediction of, Italian wine in general in China? I mean, not just about the fine wine market, but just in in general, are is there a is there the consumer knowledge base there, where consumers will or or or the mechanisms by which people can learn about the the Italian wine. So the difference between Canti and barbaresco and Barrolo. Yeah. I I mean, I think for me, the the really the appeal of doing this course. The Italian wine Academy course? Yes. This is the first course and and set of material that I've seen that can really help people to learn more. And I and and people are desperate to learn as Ian keeps saying, there haven't been that many good books. Recently. As I've been, I use Ian's book to actually not only to learn, but to go and visit producers, not not looking to import their wine, but just to go and taste the taste the wines and taste the grapes, see what they should be like. Do you see your activity morphing into something a little bit different in the future in China and Hong Kong. No. I think what now that I've moved to Japan, the market there is so different to Hong Kong, so I'm still sort of investigating that market. So what's the difference? I mean, in terms of organic, they're they're very, very strict, but I think they're one of the strictest countries to export organic wine to because they're really tough regulations about labeling and everything. Yes. And, that I think there's there's some things that, you know, some are like sorbic acid. They don't allow wines to sorbic acid into the country. But for my for my own position. I don't think you're being an importer that I think you're more perhaps of doing something along the lines of, you know, the wine education. That being said, I say that the Japanese sort of the current interest in wine, you stems back probably to early seventies. So it's a little bit earlier than Hong Kong. It's Hong Kong's seven and a half million people. Japan's a hundred and twenty seven million people. So you've got a different scale, and their level of knowledge is as good as any ones, and particularly people have mentioned, board, burgundy in particular, but they have a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about Italian wines as well. But I still don't think that necessary there's there's the material that they that we've got like in, in Italy, international academy available to people yet. So that's what I'm I'm hoping perhaps we might be able to promote Italian wine through these these courses for me. From fine art to talking about Guanti Galasco or Babaresco or Vina Detavala or swapping or swapping or water, more than five hundred and fifty grapes. For the five hundred and fifty grapes, yeah, which, very, very hard to, what what and why the name Wellspring? What did you call it? It came back because, when I we started in, Hong Kong. Actually, we, I, as I had a Chinese partner. And I said, since we're going to be sending to Chinese people, you choose, you choose a name in in Chinese, and it had to do with bamboo groves and and springs and whatever. So, I can't really go I can't call that a company like that. So we'll just do Well Spring ones. Right. Okay. We're glad we got that that one sorted out. So I want to say thanks to Rodie Robnott of Well Spring wines based in Hong Kong, former art dealer specialist. Sorry. Oh, awesome specialist. So I'm not, like, making sound like you're sort of selling monos in the back of your your your your truck. I wish I would. You know, French or less. I can't. No. I think it's very sexual professional, but it's a it's a very different profession. Yeah. That's what I say. Thanks to Roddy Rotner of Well Spring wines in Hong Kong. Thanks for coming in. And hopefully, we'll be able to follow your progress with either fine Italian wine or non fine Italian wine in Hong Kong, Japan, etc. Thanks for coming in. Thank you very much. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.