Ep. 769 Erica Crawford | Uncorked

Hello, everybody. My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to UnCorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world as we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. In today's episode, we are joined by Erica Crawford, an absolute legend in the wine and Street, even though she will probably cringe at me saying that. Erica has been ahead of the curve since day one, first building one of New Zealand's largest export brands, and now is the driving force behind love block. Yet, again, she sets a new standard for wine making. And wine business building. Today, I talk with Erica about the evolving wine market, the changing customers, and what it takes to build not one, but two powerhouse brands. Let's get into it. Welcome, Erica. Thank you so much for being here today and joining us for this discussion. Hi, Bonnie. Nice to see you again or hear from you. It's been a little while since we caught up in in Auckland here. I know. And it is a joy for me to have my Kiwis despite that accent. We're both Kiwis, and neither one of us have the right accent. When we started this series for the Italian Line podcast, our mandate is, of course, communication, marketing, and strategy. And I was thinking about the people who are in my immediate circle who frankly are absolute ballers when it comes to how they market and communicate their brand. And you are one of the very first people that I thought of. And anyone who knows you knows how hard you work for love block. So I wanted to take this chance to actually kind of interrogate you about how you make some decisions, how it factors into everyday life, what the team looks like, and and what it means to really have come from the legacy brand, you know, that existed before love block. I don't wanna dwell too much on Kim Crawford, but there's no way that we can pretend it doesn't exist or didn't contribute to where you are today. What I'm most curious about is that when you were trans you know, when you were mentally shifting the story from the Kim Crawford story to the love block story. There was a period of time in there where you were under a restraint of trade and you didn't have a public brand. But how did you actually have to change your thinking around the narrative, or how did you have to control a public narrative that maybe was not your own? Yeah. It was quite interesting. I mean, the good thing about noncon pizzas is that it actually gives you a buffer time. To get your head around all those things. Because it was a tremendous shift because we lived and breathed that brand, you know, it was all was was our whole lives. And so that buffer period, it gave us time to make a mind shift. And of course, that happened, it was beginning. It was o eight for me, you know, o nine. So at the beginning of o nine. And then we were constrained until about I think it's two thousand twelve. The good thing about that is as I said, it's you it's just time to do other things. And for me, I got involved in other small businesses, so skin care, fashion, really got my, you know, invested in some of these companies, help from these companies. So it was really interesting learning other industries, but but also that business is business and the same principles apply, you know, Or it shows it. Yeah. I I thoroughly enjoyed that, especially, you know, skin natural skin care, the half of fashion brand, which is sort of an icon New Zealand brand. So learnt a lot from those industries, and we think we've got it tough from the wine industry producing one year. They've got a drop too, you know, summer and winter age. So I I took quite a few learnings from that. Can you share what some of those were? Are there any that really stand out in your memory? Yes. If it's too cold or too warm, then the new season doesn't turn. And then there's specific time periods when you drop the new range, you know, early spring, you drop summer. And You know, inventory control is absolutely vital, and of course they couldn't they've got levers to pull. It's not like wine where you get x amount of food and you've got to process it. They can turn it off or turn it on, but mostly the clothes are made the garments have made when and and it's ready to go and shop. If it's too warm for a long period, then you can't sell your winter range through. So, it's they've got even fine parameters of inventory control that they've got to stay with. And tremendously difficult. So I have a lot of respect for people in that industry. You recently did an interview with one of our most famous or infamous, morning show hosts in New Zealand where you were discussing issues with our New Zealand De Vintage, numbers and kind of expectations on supply chain. Is that something that you can talk about a little bit with us, you know, where you think we are, where we're going, and how this is a reflection of what's going on in the the greater wine world? So the wine world, I think, the whole world in terms of, moving moving product is in a tremendous and tremendous term or like let's start with New Zealand. So New Zealand, because it's called climate, we get, you know, every five years or so, we get a really short vintage because it's cool climate and, you know, our flowering is in a very vulnerable period when we can get either too much wenwood or too cold or frost. So every five years or so, we get a really short vintage and what that does is to just normalize, you know, the inventory and the supply chain. Do you think that our business models actually take that into account when we are pricing? Because I I find that pricing wine is one of the spaces that globally, we consistently get wrong. You know, if we were retail, we would account for shrink. Do we account for it in the wine industry? Yeah. That's that's right. I mean, if you look in the, if you just go to your local supermarket or try and buy some shoes, everything is more expensive because it's more expensive to moves, to move product from a to b. Why somehow is an anomaly in that it's not allowed to increase the price. Because it's And who is to make? Do you think? Like, if, you know, fault is a heavy word, but do you think that it is an unwillingness on our part to make the decision or to market that decision, or do you think that the consumer has so much choice or is entrenched in their habits that they won't accept those price changes? I think it's it's in particularly if you look at Australian, New Zealand, it's, like, pretty much the same retail model of grocery multiples moving most of mine. And what it's done is to create, nation of deal junkies. You know, when we lasted you by toilet paper when it's not as special, we all do that. Right? And the same was fine. So people wait for they know that if you had written grocery, it's gonna go on rotation. It's gonna come cheap, and then they buy a case. So so we've bred a nation of deal dumpies, and it was quite interesting when, when beer and and wine went into grocery, because that was round about early two thousands was in late ninety nine, something like that. Yeah. How buying behavior changed? And so there is that consumers just have that expectation that that price is not going to change and they buy largely cheap. And, of course, every year Hold on. Let me just jump in on that. In in the context of our retail chain, how much of that is the buyers having expectation, and that they can commodify our product and our dependence upon those multi channels, you know, heavy, heavy reliance in some cases upon say grocery store brand, that we are willing then to meet that commodification. Correct. That's essentially where it starts. That's essentially where it sounds. Yes. And if you don't take it, then there'll always be someone else who's gonna drop their pants and do that. So that unfortunately is the situation, especially as I say, Australia, New Zealand, UK, where they have a very similar model. So we see that a lot. And subsequently, the rest of us are all fighting for that tiny little bird space at approximately, you know, it's same sort of price point ish in the fine wine and other retail stores. So for New Zealand one, for instance, New Zealand is the toughest market because a small population, lots of producers, and fewer outlets So it's very complicated. It's very about setting New Zealand White and New Zealand. I'll let you in grocery doing deals, you know. One of the things that we all know about you is that you are, preferably pounding a beat. I mean, the number of times that anyone who's in the wine industry sees you in our local establishments, actually selling and marketing your wine. Do you feel like that that personal connection and your willingness as the managing director or the principal, the founder, whatever title we want to use for it. The fact that you yourself or the one out there building those relationships is one reason that love block has been able to gain such traction, not only in New Zealand, but in you know, multiple global markets. What I've learned in my long life is that relationships are crucially important. You know, I think, and what I've what we've also seen in the last two years not being able to look eye to eye, It has changed things in and on. Because for me to give my story to the consumer or to someone in wine shop a restaurant, in the US, for instance, it's got to go to my importer. Then it's got to go to distributor, and then it's got to go to the account. So you've got to really make sure that what you want to say dribbles all the way down that supply chain line just in terms of information that you want to communicate. So being there in person, of course, is, is different. And I think I miss it terribly, you know, standing at working, brief meeting people who are about to buy and drink my wine. Yeah. I think it's crucially important that we that we start planning again because if we're not there, then someone else is gonna do that, and we're gonna lose our spot. What strategies have you and your team found are actually working? They may be imperfect. But perhaps they're the best of of what we have right now to maintain, especially those overseas relationships. You know, I think last year it was quite good. We did a lot of, zoom trainings. We did a lot of zoom tastings, talk to people, but came this year, especially if it's nice lockdown and preventive. You know, people are just fatig. So that's something we're working on now to do next year is better communicate, better speak to our consumer and to, trade customers because it's two different, they want to hear two different things. And, so so that's where people like you come in very much to help us with that technical journey. Well, thank you. That's very sweet. I I suppose in the context of speaking to our multiple markets. So this is a question that we get a lot of, and we're just gonna diverge for a moment and ask this. How do you actually manage that element of cultural differences, language differences, seasonal differences to reach both your gatekeepers and your trade as well as your consumers in markets that, you know, aren't having summertime christmases. Yeah. It's really interesting probably because, you know, I I had, probably about eighteen months at Constellation, and one of the things I really learned from them was to really look at the at the consumer. And to me, in the near world, there are two sets of consumers. These are majesty's consumers. So that will be, you know, Australia, New Zealand, UK, sort of new world consumers, and then there's, of course, the European consumer, and then there's the North American consumer. And they're quite different. If we just look at her majesty's consumer, Australia, New Zealand, UK map primarily, and then look at North America quite different. And have so watched them as quite different, you know. The UK is very understated, and they don't like being sold to you whereas in the US, of course, people are quite open to being spoken to and and being approached and quite, you know, I think also one what I've learned is that you've got to be a lot less. You've got to shape your antipodean. What's the word that I'm looking for? Humility. Yeah. That sort of thing. You've gotta shed that. So it's two completely different ways of talking to people. And there's one thing that we really know as a communication next year is, is quite different. K. To actually reach those markets. And I I suppose maybe that's one thing that the remote space has allowed us to do is really perfect how we share a similar story, but we embrace those market tendencies. So, I mean, you're South African by birth. Where do you feel South Africa fits into that that linear spectrum of how we communicate our brands. I think they super interesting because they seem to sit between Old Will and New World. You know, I think one of the beautiful things about Australia and New Zealand for instance is that There's no long history and tradition of wine. So that's why people can just put one in this group app and really innovate both in the vineyard and winery because there's no no rules to stick to it. There's no there's no expectation of tradition where South Africa has got, you know, five hundred years or something of of wine industry experience and tradition and history. So I'd say there's a lot more difficult for men, to be in that position, and they are a lot more neurocentric, I think, than Australia and New Zealand. So froger's minds and incredible diversity, you know, which And continuing to grow. I mean, it has been one of the lovely things to come out of lockdown. I think is there's been a proliferation of public discourse around the quality and the winemakers and the story of South African wine. And, of course, as an industry, we've all really rallied around South Africa because there's been so much adversity, to to their sales. So, just kind of going back to some of the decisions that you made when you were shifting from the old brand to the new, there's this wonderful story that's been written up that says when you were moving house in off land, you found a piece of paper where you and Kim had written your goals for Kim Crawford, which was grow the brand, sell it within nine years, and then buy land. Yeah. When you set forward to build to build love block. Did you do the same thing? Did you write that code? I think everybody laughed at us when we when we told them that, so we just stopped telling people, but, you know, I'm old. And I'm a big fan of the old days pad. And I keep them, you know, I keep these pages because there's always notes on it. Sure. So I found one of those, and there was in a flow and diagram. It was a nice little exhibit fan. Of course, it happened much quicker than you thought it would. The name he didn't anticipate, you know, when you're young and you don't know what you don't know, you can walk through brick walls, can't you? And yes. Yeah. And that happened. And, Kim's dream for him was always, you know, he'd like to have a winery and a little salad door where you can sit out there and have a good cup of coffee with the pandas. So when you laid out the plan of action for LeBLock, did you sit down? What did those goals look like? Because at that point, You've got children. You know, you're not we're not young and impoverished anymore. You've got history in the industry. What does that next set of goals for love block look like? So I think the first thing was when we started in Crawford, we sort of were probably the first to really scale up and make a success of what what was then they called a virtual model because back in the mid-90s, you know, probably It was the beginning of the internet, and things were slow. We fax things and orders were faxed to us, and and all that sort of stuff. So it was a different world. So at that time, you know, the traditional model was very much followed here where you buy the land, you build the winery, then you make the brand and then you sell wine. Right? It was also at a time when New Zealand was just making a bit of headway in the UK just to start with. So it was a clean slate for us. And and I think the difference that we did with Concord is that we actually, said what we did. We weren't scared to say we buy the grape from rose. We make it a weinre, we bottle it at another guy's winery. So, essentially, what we did, we was just to make a brand and just and wine in it. So at the time, you know, it was quite revolutionary. Now most of New Zealand brands made that way. You know? Well and and, actually, the interesting thing about it, and I and I wanna, ask you some questions about this, is that when we look at financials from business plans, you know, projections, it's one of the more resilient adaptable models. So from our perspective, it's actually something that we recommend for someone who's looking to, for one of a better word, dabble. You know, for someone who's looking to explore wine, but they're not coming in with huge amounts of capital. They're not coming in with investor funding. I look at it, and I'm like, oh, this is a great way to go about doing it. So I have to ask, what are the pitfalls? It's a very profitable model. Because it's basically all keno responsibility. You don't have to invest in bricks and mortar. You don't have to invest in land. Things don't break that you have to fix. You don't even have to be a winemaker. All you need to do is to be able to make a brand and sort out the route to market. So it's incredibly profitable if you really apply yourself and you can do the brand as a route to market successfully. So, yes, definitely. What are the downsides that we don't see? Right. So In the wine world, people still wanted to know where things come from. So provenance is one of the the downfalls of that, you know, especially if if if you in a New Zealand wine is, at the higher price points. People want to know. People remember, we're not selling baked beans or toilet paper. We're selling something people want not need. Right. We have to provide us food group, but to pack it, it's not. So, so people want to know. It's a little bit like, you know, your skin care and things like that. You want to know where it comes from, you know, people people believe strongly very much. In the stories behind wine. And it's really important that we can tell those stories. You know, we told our story with Kim Crawford as a neutral winery, and then then we'll embrace the time. But and, of course, at the time, that was ab absolutely revolutionary for what you're doing, but going out with that now is not necessarily an innovative model. So do you believe that the lack of provenance of terroir of that, you know, of your place? Do you believe that that can be overcome by, say, newer winemakers who are exploring the, the virtual or the winery only model from day dot with everything that we know now about our consumers or even perhaps with the proliferation of e commerce and social media. Absolutely. I think probably more so now than then, you know, because people are used to this model and people are looking for different things. So, I mean, if we just look at, you know, consumers who prefer people applies people over layer their values over purchase. You know, so if you're such a conscious grad that you make a contribution to a charity, then there's a certain group of people who will buy that because of your actions. So there's simply ways of getting lots of things that you can do in the space, you know, it's quite exciting. So it's really about finding that story. If you don't have the land from day one, you do have to have an understanding that you need a story It has to be something that resonates and is valid, so we can't just make shit up. Yep. And but that that has to be a founding part of your brand story. So you talked about values. And I know one of the things when you were setting up love block. It was this space that you could actually go in and demonstrate your values. And one of those from day one has been organics. So organics and sustainability. That was ten, twelve years ago, I wanna say. Is that right when first vintages of love block started to go up? Let me pick the first in two thousand and eleven. Yeah. Two thousand and eleven. So, that was before a lot of us were sitting around talking about climate change and sustainability and organics in our line. How much has that been emphasized in your brand storytelling and your marketing? It's the platform for everything we do. You know, we've always wanted to do something for me. It's been, you know, it's been life changing and looking at the earth that we started with and having practiced organics and, you know, a really deep land care regenerative agriculture for, as I say, in twelve years, and to see where we're at at the moment. So, and it's not only about, you know, It's not only about following the sustainability rules that New Zealand Pine grows would out there. We have to do those. But for me, it's very much about doing more and looking at the bigger hole. So it's not only looking at grapes. We're looking at, the farm as a holistic unit. So you grow grapes, but we also have paddocks which, we can't grow grapes on where we have, animals. And we're now going into planting, a lot of trees again. It's, because we that process of going to be hopefully for the farm to become positive. So for me, it's always important to do more and not only with the wine. It's it's a bigger part of your whole life. And and with, you know, with climate change, it's it's been really interesting. I've been digging into you know, the whole carbon economy and gosh it can be cynical, you know, very cynical. So it's really easy to just do one thing, put a carbon click on your your site, sell you one, and then, you know, become positive. But my question is always, what good am I doing? You know? And little things count. Little things really count. So we're looking very deeply at the whole of the, you know, as as a holistic and biological whole. And what we do and how things affect each other. And, and then of course, we're changing our personal. I always wanted to do Luffock organic beef. And the paddocks have been organic for about ten years and the cattle have been organic for about four, but we there is no slaughterhouse in South Ireland. So we've put them on a ferry and take them to the north island and it just doesn't make sense because they'll be freaked out when they get there and the cost will be blown out and no one's gonna be afforded able to buy that. So so we're giving up on that, but what we do do is You know, I very much believe that everyone who works on that farm shares and must be fed from the farm. So obviously there is meat, there is vegetables. And so and so forth. So it's that whole pim culture. It's it's a philosophy. It's not only growing, growing grapes to which you supply. The state of New Yearals of New Zealand, these mall, and and and also taking it through to my private life. You know, look at our consumer ability fixing things, you know, people for years, people have pulled the chit shirt, the button goes to throw the thing out. And now people I know you're a you, you know, you use so heavy. Yeah. And and now we're starting to fix things again, like we grew up, you know. So it's taking that whole thing right through the line, don't you, a granular level of your personal life. And I think if we all make a little bit of a difference, things changed. Have you seen a difference in the reception of that messaging? Yes. For sure. I think that when we first launched Brandon, you know, early two thousand fourteen, There was little appetite for organic wine. You really had to work it. And I think this particular last five years, I've seen tremendous change. And as organic wine growers, we also have to learn to message data, because it's more like what you don't get with organic landline than what you do get, you know. Since there's a whole lot of aspects, people don't understand biodynamics, people don't understand stability. People understand that there are rules with organics, and so that's a, that's an easy place to start. I know that there's a whole new category of clean wine, which I'm, I'm, you know, not inventories. But a lot of what the clean minded people are supporting, we in New Zealand already do, you know, and because I think it's that whole antipodean understatement that we're just incredible at what we do and how good we are. Yeah. I I strongly agree with that. And and I also I think what happened with a lot of early organic consumables, not talking about things that came out of the ground, but, you know, coffee was a a great example. Is it so much of things that were certified organic? They didn't necessarily taste good. We knew that people were buying them because they fit the organic bill. And so it was a really tricky space. I know we've dealt with this with some clients of whether or not you actually publicly. So Do you get a certification? Do you use a sticker? Is it, you know, how prominent is it in all of your marketing collateral? So, you know, certification. Do you feel like certification is important for credibility of the work you're doing? I think it is because, because there are many pretenders. But I agree that there is a space for and and city cash in is not easy, you know, the different groups of rules, and the US is probably the most difficult. But as we become more and more sophisticated in our winemaking, you know, in the winery, we overcoming, you know, we overcoming those things, but certification is archers. It's expensive, and different territories and regions may have different rules. So If we're gonna have one set of rules or just two sets of rules, it'll be really good. But I think at the heart of everything, you know, you have to be true to what to what you practice. I think A lot of people in New Zealand step up that one level, the way, you know, up from sustainability in New Zealand, but just under organics because life happens. And sometimes things happen, you know, someone spray something that they're not supposed to or you know, an inorganic cow enters the property and stuff like that happens. So so one has to be pragmatic, and you can you can tell your story really beautifully, but you've got to have some sort of an illustration, Well, one of the things that that has changed, I think about organic, it being such a part of everyday discussion now, is that the consumers do realize exactly what you're saying. You know, that there are there are variations. There are financial implications. There are financial implications. Patients. And there is a level of resilience that we have to maintain. And also because and I don't think that this is only an an antipodean thing. It is relative to size of our, you know, of us as actors within an industry something that would be absolutely catastrophic to an independent producer might only be a blip for, you know, one of our huge conglomerates. Yeah. So with that in mind, you I know that you've got the anchor estate is organic. You're running with sustainable practices throughout. You've undertaken regenerative agriculture for a very long time now. And now these are conversations that are coming to the fore in wine because of if nothing else issues around climate change. I mean, we all understand that we are at the forefront of of damage and of damage control. The conversations around climate change in wine are one that I noticed happen within our trade spaces and our private spaces, but not so much with our public. How do we actually start communicating with our audiences and our consumers how important, you know, the future of the wine industry is and why we may need to be looking at, say, lighter bottles and alternate packaging, unless shit in our boxes that we send out. Yeah. I think firstly, as workers and rowers of the land, we see it on a daily basis. It has changed. You know, we used to harvest In April, May. It was always cold. People had leather jackets and beanies and gloves. It was cold. We haven't harvested in April since two thousand and sixteen. And before that, it was a whole bunch of years. Psych currents follow a different path. And over New Zealand, it follows a different path and it's starting to affect our one bearing regions. We've just seen forty five tornadoes hitting Kansas or something. Causing tremendous damage there. And, if we really see it at a local level, it is changing and we need to do something. I I find it almost hard to swallow that people can deny climate change. It's happening at a pace that that that is staggering and eye watering. And, we do need to all of us need to make a change. And then that kind of circles right around to our earliest discussion, which is about pricing. You know, how do we actually then communicate that our harvests are being affected, our industry is being affected. Our shipping is being affected. You know, everything about getting our route to market is being impacted, and that has a direct impact on that shelf cost, you know, what that actually goes into their hands for. And I I guess, you know, one thing that we have seen is there's the recent, petition that did go out through the Washington Post. I think it was Dave McIntyre rude about that, where it was the petition to actually closed bottle weights, if I'm recalling correctly in tasting notes or text sheets. Again, though, that's information that's going out to our gatekeepers. It's the notion of how do we communicate that to our drinkers. Yes. In a way that they care. And they're like, yes, I'm gonna pay you more, or I'm going to respect the lighter bottles. Yes. So because, of course, especially in America, people love the heavy bottle because it's a it's a quality cue in in people's eyes. So we we have so we call model size weight. Right? So we've always because the laptop was paying brand, we put it in a, what, a five five o, meaning the thing waves five ways five hundred and fifty grams. And it came in from China. So imagine the footprint, shipping, giving a bottle, and then we ship it back out. Stupid. What was I thinking? You know? So we now change we just changed to a four one seven So shaving off a hundred and, whatever, grams of one bottle. And it makes one point six eight kilograms difference to okay to a case. You really feel it when you pick it up. So we just have this vintage of change to the lighter bottle. Moreover, it calves, it's something like fifteen percent of your carbon footprint because most of the carbon expended in wine is packaging and and fret to an extent, but packaging's major one. So the first and simplest thing to do is change to a lighter bottle. So from bottles where to? I mean, do you see that there will ever come a point where a premium organic wine for value reasons is moving into a can, into a tetra pack, into any kind of alternate packaging just to lighten that up, and will consumers ever accept that? Evers? I think that young people do. You think young people do? I think they do. Yeah. I mean, we've seen it with tin cans. I haven't really looked at the common footprint and the recyclability of tin cans, but you know, one bottle of wine is six pours. And if you take, you know, you fit four little tin cans, so look at the tremendous amount of packaging that you're creating. Right. And you know, that, I I also want to say something about online shopping you know, so we all it's all breakfast all online. But my god, the packaging that's being created is phenomenal. So the the packaging is incredible. I don't know if you will know because in New Zealand, you won't be ordering from Amazon here in Spain. I use Amazon more than I'd like to. I do it because it's really good service. I can send something back, which is important when we're getting a language that I don't work with. But I look like I'm running a cardboard shop half the time in my office. Yeah. So so what is the carbon effect of all that? So what good are we really doing? The net net, and I think people find it incredibly confusing. I do. But probably, I'll tell you a little story. My nephew lived in the Ukraine, it must be. I think he came back Oh, ten, twelve years ago. And he lived in the Ukraine for fifteen years and in the middle, you know, and it was like timewall. And people used there's only one shape of jar So your mayonnaise, your pickles, your jams, everything comes in the one shape of jar. And then it gets recycled. It gets washed. It gets a new lid and you stick on your particular your particular label, and that is called communism. And is it really such a stupid idea? No, it's not. If we just if you go to the supermarket next and you want to buy something like sapponives. I mean, it's fat bottles, skinny bottles, straw bottles. And We now use single serve glass because we buy yeah. So so I'm just putting this out there. Is it really such a bad idea? To have one shared jump, put everything in it, and then you make your individuality on your label, but the Western world will never accept that because it's taking away individual, thought, and individual rights, etcetera. But it's not such a stupid idea. Well, I I guess I guess the real takeaway from that is that those places do exist. I mean, we've got a few of them, there near, you know, where you and I are. And but it's entirely consumer driven. And the shops that are catering to it are coming because they're seeing a a consumer need for it. So what we have is a space where as brands, whether it's wine brands or mayonnaise brands or olive brands, we have to actually just keep our eyes open to what those opportunities are. So I know we're coming to the end of our time, but on your website, you have a great statement, that I just kinda like to round this out with, you say. If we don't chase the impossible sites, the improbable blends, the exquisite flavors, then nothing will change. What do you think is the thing what do you think is the thing that needs to change immediately? In New Zealand, I think, I mean, everybody talks about Marlissomian love being so dominant. And we grow, as you know, absolutely fantastic other things. I think in New Zealand, it's telling our story of these otherwise and getting them to those markets. Our voice? Yeah. Our voice. I need to be. I think we need to be a little more forceful, and I think that was one of the reasons why King Crawford was so worked so well in the beginning because I wasn't from here. So I didn't have constraints of cultural constraints. What I was supposed to say, not supposed to say, you know, here the Kiwis are graded. If they don't want to say no, they just go And so for me, I took it as a yes. And so so it's it's I think we need to I know we're a lot more international now, of course, but I think is telling the story of adversity, and anybody wants to do the same thing. I mean, South Africa got the same complaint as we have. We it's so diverse. I think New Zealand's a great place of innovation. You know, if you look at things in the vineyard that have changed in Australia, New Zealand, this is because labor is a massive problem for us, and we're going to whether we like it or not have to look at further mechanization. People just have human hands are just getting fewer and fewer, you know, far between. And in adversity comes great creativity, and this happened in two thousand and eight, when, you know, we faced a different sort of problem with too much grapes and and so someone invented this this this, once absolutely once once trusted, it's in a good way, but that helps us with pruning, you know, and now there's a second and third generation, which is much more kind of it. So It's in these times that we're so good at coming up with things. And also in terms of, I mean, as you know, we just we we're very much exploring alternate and alternative tenants, the use of alternative tenants and team. Particularly ones coming from tea. So that's green tea, white bars, honey bush. The biggest problem up there is regulatory because people don't understand that it's still a canon. It just comes from a different source. So So we're breaking those barriers at the moment. But that's what we I think we're good at, really, but we've just got to keep on pushing and not sit in this comfortable sofa of a new block. Understood. Right there with your girlfriend. And, and and as a as a marketer, if I could say, it's not just New Zealand. It's not just Australia. It's kind of like everyone who's not American. It it is about having the the confidence to share those stories with almost hyperbole, like, knowing, being grounded in the fact that the work that we're doing is whether it's innovative or whether it's just expressive or, you know, whether it is absolutely classical and we have to cherish it whatever it may be that your brand is bringing to the table, owning that space. And from that then comes the loyalty, the awareness, the ability to lift those prices when we need to, the the consumers who will stick with us when we have terrific vintages, but also when we have absolutely sharp vintages. Which sometimes does happen. Erica, thank you so much. I know that you had to to shoe hornets in this morning, but I'm grateful for it. And even though everyone who's listening won't see the video, I will, it's wonderful to see your beautiful face from very far away. So thank you. I'm grateful. You too, Holly. I miss you. And that's a wrap for this week's episode of uncorked. Thank you for listening and a very special thank you to my friend Erica Crawford for joining us today. The Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with daily episodes. Tune in each day and discover all our different shows. Be sure to join us next Sunday for another look at the world of wine marketing. Hi, everybody. Italian wine Podcasts on the Breats' fourth anniversary this year. And we all love the great content they put out every day. Chinching with Italian wine people has become a big part of our day, and the team in Verona needs to feel our love. Producing the show is not easy folks, hurting all those hosts, getting the interviews, dropping the up house recordings, not to mention editing all the material. Let's give them a tangible fan hug with a contribution to all their costs. Head to Italian wine podcast dot com and click donate to show your love.