Ep. 813 Vinexpo Paris | Uncorked

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and verona. Think you make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Hello, everybody. My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to Uncorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world. As we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. In this VIN Expo inspired episode, I'm joined by not one, but two guests, as well as my very favorite partner in crime, Robert Joseph. First up today is Ricardo Pascua, CEO of Pascua wines. Robert Joseph and I were lucky enough to catch a few minutes of his time at the next boat to talk about the lately released Pascua manifesto. Let's get into it. I want to start with the manifesto. Oh. I I Very good. Thank you, Mateo, for that one. But how about you talk me through where that came from? Well, I mean, I'm very glad we start this conversation from the manifesto. I mean, I I wasn't expecting that. And, and it's great because, you know, the manifesto is really the the, how can I say the achievement of many work, of many years of work, of many years of experimenting, of many years of lounging, new concepts? And the manifesto explains, in few words, who we are and, what our our values are. And, sums up in one single sentence. Very simple. Just a few words, what is Pasco today after all these years, as I was saying before. And Pasco is a house of the unconventional. So House of the unconventional is, our, new payoff tagline is our new ID card, if you may, which, in in just one brief sentence sums up, all our values, which basically, are the sum of amazing projects from winemaking to communication that, brought us to these new, communication platform called the House of the unconventional. So how do you think that that manifesto has evolved over the past? You know, we're rapidly approaching ten years since your generation has taken over leadership of the brand. Do you feel like it's the essence of what the brand was then just put into practice, or do you feel like the message itself has really changed with you guys taking the lead? Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. The second, the message changed completely since the third generation took the hell of, of the company in twenty fourteen. Everything changed. You know, our skin changed completely from, you know, the the people, to the vineyards, to how we make our wise to how we bring the message out there. So, you know, it's been the the the combination of few factors, you know, coming together, first, to your point, to the governance. So, you know, being, just one, family looking to to a very clear direction. Second, understanding, the importance of being present directly in some pivotal markets, such as USA, for example, where we, as you know, we have our, importing company and, a company that allow us to understand, in a lifetime, you know, before everybody else, some trends and some, some new, trends, and and, but the last one, and maybe the most important one, was the launch of a series of projects that starting from Romeo and Juliet in two thousand fourteen, going through my dear Amay, in two thousand seven sixteen, eleven minutes in two thousand seventeen, a French in two thousand nineteen, a series of project that have put together our creativity, our boldness, and our positively, positive disruptiveness together with the ninety seven years of legacy, ninety seven years of, of heritage. No. And these wines, really, changed completely the scenario for us. And, and brought the Pascal back on the map, and, brought Pascal back on the map, very distinctively. So Pascal today is a very unique animal. Which is very difficult to compare with the with the, you know, other, wineries in our area because everything we do is unconventional. That's why, to your point, the new tagline, which is gonna be the the base of the new communication platform, is really tailored on us. We were already the house of the unconventional year after year. Today, we are proud to bring it out to to say to the word loud and clear. I'm interested in when you're talking about being unconventional, how do you deal with the customers who want the conventional. How do you deal with the fifty, sixty, seventy year old customers who are buying traditional DOCs, EOCGs, and want things the way they were Do you not risk by using this manifesto? Do you not risk losing them to competitors who are saying, well, you know, we're still maintaining the old, quote, unquote values. Well, for sure. For sure we risk to lose them. There's, no question about it. But, you know, this is who we are. This is our DNA. And I think, what have happened over the past six years, really showed us that, is, is the right path. Meaning, we have been able to catch partners around the world and new consumers that, that, that, you know, maybe before we're looking at producer from from the new world or Maybe we're an expecting from an Italian producer of ninety seven years old such an approach. And the and, in the meantime, I agree with you. We we risk to lose some more traditional audience, even if, I think, unconventionality could be interpreted in many ways, in in not as to be only, you know, the way is communicated, not to be only the way, the the tone of voice could be also a style, for example. And, and to your point, I think, our my dilemma is, at the same time, unconventional because it was one of the first Samarone, going to the market with a a match houseier, dry, vertical, style. But at the same time, it's a very classical wine, meaning it's something you can, keep in your cellar basically forever and and something that, even the the the most savvy wine lovers and wine expert could appreciate. So bottom line, yes, the the the statement we have made is very bold and goes very clearly towards a direction. But within our series of project, there are few that can can also encounter the the requests and the taste of those that are more, of those audience that is more related to the tradition and to the old school style. In in terms of markets, how have the Italians responded to the change? Because I know sitting outside of Italy and looking at it from both a New Zealand perspective, as well as an American perspective. It has been very progressive. From the labels, to the arts, to the relationships that you built with, for instance, wired. I mean, you did a whole, a whole collaboration with wired magazine, which this is out of the box for wine. So how has the home front viewed the changes. Yeah. You know, I I am very proud to say that, you know, all the new projects, we launched even the ones that we were expecting, to be successful only either in the Anglo Saxo markets or in the emerging markets have been very well received both from the domestic market and from the most mature and, let's say, conservative markets like continental Europe. So, I mean, I think I think at the end of the day, our partners, first of all, and ultimately the consumers, so in Pasco, the effort of being something very unique. And, and, at the end of the day, they they are embracing it. I mean, the the first, wine we are selling in Italy on premise is our Romeo in Juliet, which if you think, It's, it's quite unexpected now because being an IGT and and sold, from a very traditional region. I didn't expect that. But, looks like there's a new generation of restaurant owners, a new generation of bartenders, a new gen and a new generation of wine consumers that are trying to look to the wine business in a in a little, more casual way, in a little, more lifestyle way, if you mean, if you may, not too technical, still with a lot of tradition. But, you know, They are trying, probably, to find the wines and and bottles that are talking with them, you know, that they are interacting with them. They are blinking an eye to them in how they are communicating and and and how they are narrated. You control a lot of your, of your own methods of distribution. You mentioned this earlier to, in the interview. How does all of the information that you can gain via control of those methods of distribution allow you to make decisions about what the next product is gonna be or what a market's looking for and really allow the brand to be more market driven. It's absolutely crucial, crucial, as I was saying before, being present with our own organizations have been one of the intuitions that really helped us make a biggest leap forward, because, you know, being on the market, very, you know, stupidly, having the same time zone having the same, angle, you know, the same length, the same way of thinking, it really makes a huge difference. And, and so has been crucial in many decisions we made, probably the most, the most important one, which is really under a very, very good example is eleven minutes, you know, eleven minutes. We we always known we always know that the Gardale Lake is an area where you can do amazing Rosier wines. But we never got the right angle and being in America and seeing in two thousand eleven, twelve, thirteen, what, the champions of the category, so Southern France was doing. He really opened my eyes and say, are we sure that we cannot approach the Gardale Lake with a different, angle, trying to find a style that goes more towards the world, trying to winemaker Jose that is has its own dignity that, it can play a very precise role in the wine list, and in a restaurant manual. So we started to, to, to work. On the first, humidifications, and we decided to go with the eleven minutes. So I'm going up out of the appalachian, but still very related and deeply embedded to the to the garden lake, to the soil, to the terroa. Are you willing to talk about some of the experiments that didn't work? So I think the the the biggest problem we we had them, it has the the pace, meaning Sometimes, our pipeline was soft full of new things that was very difficult for the organization, and later for the, you know, our partners organization to digest them and make them equally successful. So, that's that's, our biggest issues. In terms of testing, so if we look at the US, which is a huge country, a huge set of markets, not one market, as we know, a company like Galloa or the wine group would test a new concept in one corner of the country without anyone knowing about it, and it fails. Right. What's it? Other people are testing products digitally, putting out concepts, labels, and so on. Again, most people won't be aware of that happening. And then the third group I know of is wineries that do a lot of testing through, their wine tourism, offer. And so you say, right, we have fifty thousand people visit our winery, We've now got a dark, Jose, or we're gonna give a blue label or something else, and we found that this is working on it. Wait. Which of those models work for you or if any of them? None of them. None of them. No. We we, you know, we didn't, make any test outside of our organization. Probably, you know, the the main reason is that we are family company, relatively small, in in the big corporate world. So we really relied on the professionalism of our talents. So when we got an idea, first of all, I mean, You know, we taste a lot. We travel a lot with the key team, and we have been more or less everywhere. We talk to the people, and, and then we go back and see see it around the table, and try to, you know, again, put on the table, our experiences, and our professionalism, and ultimately, we take the risk when we go out, but no, we don't we don't do any tests whatsoever. Yeah. Just before we wrap this up, there's one thing I wanna make certain that we get into this discussion, and that is your open, commitment to sustainability across the brand. If you can just talk to us about sort of what's driven that and how you've seen that grow, during the time that you've been leading the brand, and maybe where you think Pascua is going as the torchbearer for sustainable, sustainable practices in Italy. Absolutely. So, well, first of all, I think everything starts from from the people, you know, from the culture. And, as as I said before, we are ninety seven years old, but the the the talents, the the the team, the organization is very young. Is way under forty as an average age. So you have you imagine how sensible, Pasua as a culture is towards these, subjects. Having said that, we have, a little, let's say, credo, in inside of Pascal when it comes to sustainability, which is, action, not perfection. We don't want to make, you know, statements, and we don't want to, make any sort of propaganda. We want to make a few little things day after day, break after break in order to give our contribution. So what we have done until now, as far as, environmental sustainability, we took this year, this year twenty twenty one. So last year, certification, Equalitas, which is, important, which is one of those certification that checks out the most of, you know, the requirements also internationally. Is a certification that, you know, give us, the the ambition of not only, achieving the the targets of the year, but of writing a plan for the next years, plan that will be, tracked in every year, Belancho, you know, every year we will, issue a sustainability report, which will be included in the books of the company, which in Italy are public as you know. And, and so that's that's one thing, as far as, environmental sustainability, we are also, moving some of the core, production of our group towards organic farming in order to achieve the planies by twenty Twenty three is gonna be, a little over ten percent of the total production of our vineyards, so owned and controlled vineyards. And, twenty twenty five, which is our, centenary, double it twenty percent. So we already, of course, have, addressed everything or the towards that. It's not something that you decide the night night time. So But something I'm very proud of, and I think he's very in line with our culture is the social sustainability. And we are, I think, quite innovative in that because we introduced in twenty twenty. Mental coaching class, a mental coach program, let's say. So you like, like, a pro athlete. So the idea now is, of course, to, to, to enhance your strengths, and address your weaknesses. And that was that was really great. I think it really was uh-uh an additional glue, if you may, to our team, you know, because It it it was really an instrument that allowed us to, you know, go out from our self and watch us from outside and and it was very useful. So I'm cognizant that we've taken up thirty minutes of your time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Ricardo. Are you kidding? It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for coming. And thank you, Robert. And no trip to Paris is complete without a visit with the delightful Tanisha townsend. Whether she's producing her popular podcast series wine school dropout, updating her guide book to the top seventy five wine bars in Paris, or leading custom wine tours throughout France, Tunisia brings a marvelously unstuffy approach to wine communication. Let's see what she has to say. Tamisha. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to have you here. How's life in Paris? Life in Paris is good. The sun has come back out. Because that's not always a thing. You know, the sun is setting later. That means spring is right around the corner. Things are blooming. Wine festivals? I know wine festivals are coming up. What wine festivals are you headed to? Soon. I am deciding on Provine or not. I'm trying to figure that out. Yeah. Well, since we're here to talk about the next, though. Mhmm. I can actually say so I was supposed to go to Provine as many of us were when lockdown happened in twenty twenty. I opted not to go this year because I'm going to another conference at the same time. And I I went to, VIN Expo, and I I just thought it was fabulous. I'd rather go to Paris than to Distle Dorf any day. That's kinda what I'm leaning towards now, like what I've done. The next bow, do I need to do anything else? I got the information I needed since I am largely focused on, French wines and the occasional spirit. I'm I'm kinda where I need to be. So do I need to go to somewhere else too? So that's that's a good segue for me to actually intro you because, of course, I know you, but I I realize that maybe everybody who's listening doesn't. So here's a little, intro bit. So Tanisha Townsend. You are American from Chicago, but you are living in Paris. I actually I wanna tell you what I read when I was going through your bio that fascinated me. So I thought of the matrix. You are our very own neo, Tanisha, you actually live two lives. In one life, you are a wine educator, a wine ambassador, a wine communicator, but in the other life, you are a security or you were a security and privacy specialist Yes. Or the information for the data world. I mean, like, very disparate. So let's start with that. How do you go from being, you know, a a data security specialist in the public sector to being a podcaster and a writer and a, you know, a guide writer and a tour guide. So all of those things are true, but going from data to wine is because data was stressful, and I needed to drink. So I started drinking wine. So that was the first transition, drinking it. Then after I was drinking wine, I was living in DC at the time because that's where I went to grad school. So I started going to festivals because There's a bunch of wine in Maryland and Virginia. Their wine industry is just amazing. So if you haven't had it, get into that. But in that, I started going to festivals. And at one festival in particular, I was tasting wine and it happened to be the winemaker pouring it. And I was very fascinated and enthralled by the flavor of the wine, and then he was telling me about it. And I was like, so how do these flavors work? And I just couldn't wrap my mind around that are great, fermented into this beverage, but it tasted like cherries and blueberries and hints of oak. I didn't understand how all of that other stuff happened. So from there, I took a w set course, which is a natural progression. Why not take a certification course to find out about what you wanna know? Totally. Why not? Go for it. I mean, Google wasn't it. So let's let's get to the crux. So did that. Met a gentleman who worked at Y Marketing. He was like, oh, I'm starting a firm. You should work with me. So then I did that. In addition, I was still doing my data security, work, but I started excelling at wine. I was good in the marketing portion. I was good in the tasting portion. I was going on trips, and things were happening for me in that sector. And all of that kind of snowballed into what we have today. You've got wine guides, you've got wine tourism, you've got a podcast, you do presentations, you know, you write, you speak. Do you think back to what it was like being that person who was new to wine and being fascinated, but really not understanding it. Is that is that part of how you inform your content for your audience now? Yes. I remember having no idea why the flavors and how the flavors became what they were. I didn't understand how it worked, but it also fascinated me the most. So when I do tastings now and when I take people on tours now or do wine dinners or things like that, I talk about flavors because I think that's what people That's what people wanna know, and I think that's what confuses people the most, the actual flavors of it. And they feel like they need to know the flavors of wine as opposed to flavors of, say, gin. Or whiskey or beer. Like, they are beer tastings, but no one is given a heineken, and they're like, oh, I don't know that much about beer. I don't know about the malt and the wheat. Does it pair with this? I'm not sure what should I do? No one says that, but when it comes to wine, oh, I don't know that much about wine. I don't know if there's payers, should this be relaxed? I want you to think of it not just like beer, but I want you to be as relaxed as you are with other beverages. Know what you like and stand on that. In some ways though, that puts us because I agree wholeheartedly. Right? Taste comes first, like and trust. Like, this is basic communication, marketing, friend making. Right? But that does put us at odds with a lot of the wine industry who says we must educate our audiences, and they must understand why what we're doing is so important. You know, that that kind of ivory tower space in wine So what has the response been to your what I would describe as, like, warm and welcoming? Very friendly approach to wine. The response is good because the way I approach my tastings and tours is like you are talking to a friend that knows a lot about wine. So you can ask all the questions that you've ever wanted to ask if you've ever been nervous about something or hesitant or just been like, I always wonder, but I didn't think I could say it out loud. Or, you know, anything like that, you can ask me. I mean, I I'd love that, but I also feel it. It's a little bit heartbreaking that somehow in our industry, we've set up this space where someone feels like we have to say, no. No. It's okay for you to ask the hard you know, any of the questions, drink what you like because that's the best thing. Become a wine drinker in your head and screw all the rules around how we are supposed to engage with wine. You said something that I really, really wanna talk about today. You turned your communications into paid wine guides. Can you just tell me a little bit about how that came to be and who the audience for your wine guides are? Yes. It started because I was doing tours in the city. I do day trips to Champagne. Yes. And so We'll get to that in a second. But it started with doing wine tours in the city. And when I first got here, nobody was really doing that. I look at the people who are doing that now, and they weren't I mean, maybe a couple of them were, but I didn't know them, but No one was doing going to different places to drink wine. And so that's what I was doing. It wasn't you come to my facility. You sit down. We taste. No. I'm taking them to wine shops and wine bars and then we taste together. And it would always be private. It never, happened to be that there were multiple people that would book on the same day or anything like that. And over time, I'm like, there are only so many people that I can serve. I can't do this every day. The wine bars open aren't open every day. So I'm like, if I can only do two, three people at a time, you know, a few times a week, there has to be a better way to do this. So I actually think the conversations was my brother, and we were just brainstorming on different things that can be done. I was like, I should write these places down. Because people also would come into town, and they're like, Hey, what's going on? I know you're the wine girl. Where can I go to treat? Where can I get a good glass and wine? And I'm like, as Paris? Anywhere. And they're like, no, no, but like a good glass. And then I thought about it. And I'm like, here at restaurants, you can't just go to any restaurant and sit at the bar and have a drink. Whereas in the States, most restaurants have a separate bar and you can sit there. So what people were really asking me for is where can I go if I just want to have a drink? And then maybe I have dinner later at another place. Yeah. So I was like, I've been to all these bars I need to do something with this. And so I brainstormed for a bit and then came up with the name seventy five and the seventy five. So Paris is the seventy fifth department of this region. So I mean, I locked myself into seventy five wine bars, but I'm like, at that time when I thought of this, I wrote them all out, I think I had already been to, like, sixty, somewhere in there. So I'm like, oh, well, what's fifteen more? I remember when I was going to Paris if I wanted to know where to drink, I'd go online. I'd Google it would generally be like the David Lieblewitz, recommendations, for wine bars, things like that. So you made a decision, and this is part of what I wanna talk about to monetize something that often had been part of free content amongst, you know, bloggers, wine writers, everything else. What you said to me when we talked at lunch, as you said, I got sick of giving my work away for free. Absolutely. And and I I think that I'd love if we could just talk about that for a little bit because in the context of wine writing and wine communication, we do have issues around how we monetize and the willingness, our perceived willingness of consumers to pay for it. You know, the number of times that I've heard from someone, oh, you know, I've thought about monetizing it, but no one would pay for that. That is true for some things, but I think you have to really figure out what it is that people will pay for. Clearly, if people are consuming your content, if you're getting, you know, hundreds thousands of views to your website, you know, you have all these followers on social media. People enjoy your content. Think of how you can package it so people will pay for it. For me, it was slightly easier because people will pay for Paris things and to make their life here easier. People are always coming here. They're always wanting to know what's new, what's good, what's fun, and things like that. So that made it slightly easier for me. But everybody has something that they can sell or monetize. I truly believe that. And you know what? I I agree wholeheartedly. I think they're that you hit the nail on the head with this idea of ask what it is that provides value for your audience, not ask what it is that you want to sell. Right? Like, there's a sweet spot in between those two things. And and actually doing the work of identifying or understanding what that sweet spot is is often I would say the issue. I mean, I work in wine and sometimes I sit down and I read the wine writers, and I think to myself, well, I feel like I didn't know enough going in and I still don't know enough coming out, and I just wasn't the audience for this. Right. You're like, I'm in the same place. This isn't right. Yeah. Let me ask point blank questions. Do you accept sponsorship or advertising from wineries or from bars, cafes, bistros to get into your guides? No. Not yet. I think I might do that going forward because I'm working on the second edition now because, unfortunately, several bars closed because of, COVID. So working on the second edition of it, I'm thinking the sponsorship is a way to go, for it. And by sponsorship, it wouldn't be okay. Yeah. They are sponsored. So I'm going to put them in the guide. It would be they were already going to be in the guide. Maybe they just want a bigger page, or maybe they just want, you know, more space in the guide or something like that. But I would never use it as a way to, oh, let me just add in anybody, whether I like them or not. But but to be fair, it's a very recently priced guide that you Oh, for sure. That you sell, and we all have to make a living. Jumping from your guides, your content, knowing all of these brands, knowing the places to go, Here we are. We've done VIN Expo. First time in two years that most of us have been to something this big. Since the last time you've been or the last time that you've been to these kind of large trade conferences, are there any trends, behaviors, you know, anything that you're seeing that are strongly different this year after two years of COVID? I really think that the no and low alcohol thing is super huge. There were quite a few no alcohol and very low alcohol alcohol wines that I came across. There were a couple spirits, but there were, more than I've seen before. And by more, meaning, like, one that they had them there. But I think that's something that's really They had some at all. Which. Right. Means. So that didn't mean to be a thing. But, yeah, they were there. And I actually got a chance to speak with a couple, and one, we'll talk to them later on, in a little more depth. But they are making their and they can't call it why necessarily, but they are making their beverages in a way that's so closely simulates wine. And people look at it like, oh, well, you know, why don't you just drink wine then? Where everybody doesn't want to drink wine for maybe health reasons, for religious reasons, And that they still want to be a part of something. That was the thing that got me the way they explained it. People that want to be still a part of the event, a part of the celebration. It's not like, oh, I'm just a teetotaler, and I'm judging those who drink. No. I don't drink for whatever reason, but I still wanna drink in a pretty glass. I still wanna have something that looks nice in here. Yeah. That was a trend that I saw, a lot. And that there were also people that were interested in that. Because there these booths that I went to for these, for no and low, they weren't empty. Interesting. What about on the spirit side? Did you see when you're when you're in the spirits pavilion at VIN Expo? Were there things that you were looking at that you're like, oh, spirits have learned from wine or wine has learned from spirits. Packaging, definitely. And I actually want to I wanna figure out how I can do a season of that on, the podcast about packaging. Because I'll speak specifically to the French. They are not taking kindly and have not spoken favorably over alternative packaging, whether it's the box, the carton, the can, the individual bottle, they, mm-mm, I went to a presentation. This is a few years back, about wine in a can. It was called the can can. So, you know, being the can can. Can. But I'm bumped right. That was them, not me. Don't Don't add me for this. It wasn't my joke. And French people were losing it. Okay? Losing their mind. That's gross. Who's gonna drink wine out of a can? What are you even talking about? The the how much energy it takes to make the aluminum can that already got me. Yes. But the alternative packaging thing was interesting to me. I tasted a few wines in a can, there is another wine company wine producer that is making a wine in a beer style. It's a wine base and then they're adding flowers to it. You I'm actually sitting in the right place. Interesting. It's this. So it looks like a barrier, but you see it's infused. So a base of wine Yeah. Infused with, flowers. So I haven't opened this yet. But it's infused with some hot flowers. You need to interview your skills. Absolutely. I definitely wanna talk to them and then a couple of people that are doing, cans. So something like that, do you think that a product like that appeals to the natural wine market more than it does say a traditional wine market? Absolutely. Traditional wine market and traditional wine drinkers are not necessarily flexible. And they're like, they want at the bottle. They still want the natural cork. They're still on that. And don't want to see it as anything else. This is something that is for, a wine brand that is trying to maybe diversify their offerings and have something else for a different group of drinkers. I don't necessarily think this will lead people into wine, but this does give a wine company who makes this, it gives them something else to sell and something else to do with their their grapes or their, Thomas or things like that. In terms of the people, because you talk to people from all over the world for the podcast. We haven't had a chance to talk about the podcast. You know, What are you seeing being the places or the audiences that are interested in these risk taking? We will use the word innovators begrudgingly. Why brands? Do audiences love it? How's it working in the market? Audiences do love it because I'll say my audience is not one that is necessarily deeply ingrained in wine. They are people who came to wine later, in life, but are enjoying it now. Maybe they have been in it a while, largely consumers. But they've been, some of them have been drinking wine a while, and we'll spend money on nicer or more expensive bottles of wine. Then there are also a lot that are new to why new to understanding it and wanting to broaden their broaden their horizons a bit and not just drink the same, two, three things all the time. They're just not entrenched. They're just like, hey, wine. What can wine be? Yeah. They're not so caught up and it has to be a bottle. It has to be a natural cork. It has to have the wax on the top or a certain foil and all that. They're not into that. That's a great segue because, I would like for you to share with us. You are a communicator across multiple media. What do brands need to know to get the most from someone like you? One, brands need to know how I operate. They need to know what my content is and what my content looks like. Brands also need to know what they want from a communicator. Like, do they just want people to be informed? Do they want to make sales? Do they want people to sign up for an email list? Like, what are they trying to do? And if they're trying to inform, what are you trying to inform? Are you trying to inform them about a new product you have, about your flavor profile, about your, vendor practices, about your winemaking techniques? Think about that. Then if you're talking to me specifically think about how I talk about wine, then you will know some of those things I'm not talking about. I'm not getting on with anyone doing any videos, and you won't see me digging my hands in the soil. You might see me taking pictures in the vines because that looks kinda cool. Like, I will do that. But other than that, that's not something I talk about because then trying to break that down for your average consumer, they do not care. They don't care about that part. Can you just say that once more for the people in the back? Stoidal people care. Do not care. Now I will say this though. If they are visiting your vineyard, then that is something that you can discuss with them then. Or talk about, but not at length. Okay? You could just say, Hey, look, this is what the soil looks like. This is why it's important. If I'm there, I care. If I'm away, Leave it at bay. I'm just, you know, because I'm a rapper. Alright. Sounds good. That's good, Ryan. Just throw that out real quick. Now there are times that I that I myself get into it because I can be a geek about things. And, I speak on champagne specifically. When they have their, champagne week in the spring, the difference some of the different champagne producers will have a big vase, and they'll have their soil in it. So, understanding how things taste and the flavor profile based on what the soil looks like, like one stand will have these big chunks. Another one will have these little small pebbles. Another one, it looks like sand. So from that standpoint, that's kinda fascinating. But if you are able to tie it into something, me just looking at soil on my own or your average consumer looking at soil on their own, like, okay. What does this even mean? Last question. Okay. Opinion. Emily and Paris. What is hysterical about this is My current season of wine school dropout is like a little riff on Emily in Paris. It's Tunisia in Paris, and I'm talking to real people during real things in, French culture, beverage wine, that kind of thing, largely Americans. And I did this because people look at Emily and Paris as, like, the truth and the real thing, and that's really how it is. And that could be your experience. If you come here and as a tourist, or maybe if you come here for your company for a little for a period of time. But for people who live here and walk around every day and need to learn the language and want to get their cable turned on one and want to open a bank account and want to do real things here. That's not it. That's not it at all. So we can find that on Spotify, Apple, anywhere the podcast are served as wine school dropout. Absolutely. Brilliant. Tanisha, I'm I'm so glad to see you. I'm glad I've been able to visit with you. Well, now we can still chat, but I I I I get to do my outro now. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. And there it is. That's wrap on this VIN Expo edition of uncorked. Thank you Ricardo. Thank you, Tanisha, and thanks to everyone for listening in. The Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with daily episodes. Tune in each day and discover all our different shows. Be sure to join us next Sunday for another look at the world of wine marketing. Hi guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.