Ep. 1102 Carlo Paoloni | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. Tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Miller on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to the beautiful wine hills of the Castelli Diaz in the region of Lane Marque to meet my guest today, Carlo Paloni. Who is the owner of the Tombalini winery, which has been in the family hands for a hundred years. Chow Karla, thanks for being my guest today. I'm guessing it's high summer in Le Marque, and you're finding a way to keep cool. Chal Mark, thank you very much for having me. Yes, it's, you know, we are we are in the middle of the summer here, but also refreshed by the the Adriatic seas breezes. It's a quite a pleasant day, and, we are looking forward to a family gathering they? Oh, good. That sounds great. Well, that's one of the beauties of where you are in the Castell ADAs, isn't it? That you've got this proximity of the Adriatic, and you also have the mountains, the hills leading up to the high mountains. For our listeners, just to give them a picture of the Castelli Diazis and what a special place it is. Can you describe Staffelo and where you are and your wine estate? Yes, sure. We are we are at around three hundred meter on the sea level, facing east. This is one of the of the of the beauties of being on the adriatic side of Italy. And also that naturally the slopes are tending towards the east and the more gentle sun exposure. We are thirty kilometers, away from the Adriatic sea shoreline, and ten kilometers from the peak of the happening here, which is Monte San Bicino at fifteen hundred meter meters of altitude. Staffalo is a historical, I mean, very historical, city for a town for which culture. There are there are records from thirteen fifty you know, of of the the town being full of wine. So we've been drinking Okay. Some wines since at least that time, I say it was ridiculous. I'm sure it was. And I'm sure it was, people were drinking it for even longer than that time. The Castellivierzy, beautiful hilltops with with castles fortifications around this area near Yeezy, the town of Yeezy. Yeah. Sure. So this is, Castellivierzy, you know, it's a it's a denomination. Where valleys are, you know, are created by rivers flowing from the appendix down to the Atlantic sea. And so these these valleys are running if you want perpendicular to the to the Atlantic coast. And that they are kind of natural channels for air and water. I say we are in the middle of a natural channel of air and water. And the the that allows the breezes from the sea to come up to the hills. And at the same time, you know, in the winter, and and in the, you know, in the months around also the beginning and the end of the summer, we have, quite high excursions, temperature, urinal, urinal excursions. Being close to the appendix. So, these are areas where normally in the winter, it it snows. So, in the winter, we are covered by snow. And in in the summer, we have the refreshing impact of being close to the month. Okay. And that movement of air from the land breezes and the sea breezes must keep the vines fresh and people fresh as well because it's been a hot summer. Oh, it's been it's been a very hot summer. There's no way to deny it. I mean, think I think all around all around Europe. But, you know, Virdicchio, verdicchio, which is our focus. You know, we are a thirty hectare vineyard. These all plants, the verdicchio, and, you know, with vines that go from, you know, twenty five to fifty years, of age, the the the digits part late late rapidly gray. And, seems to be quite, strong, against, against also weather changing. The other thing which is which is good in the location where we we we are is the, you know, the mix, the mix in the soil, soil types. So we have a good substrate of, of clay, which retains water, but also we are not at the top of the hill. We are kind of middle, mid of the hill, which is, you know, marked at the top from the tunnel staff look. And so being in the middle, you know, you you don't get that very strong sun exposure, like at the top, and also water somehow remains, you know, trapped, around the area. So we we we don't see a lot of, you know, effect from the from the December drought. I know that winery has been in the family for a hundred years, and and you had a career change when you decided to come back to the to the family estate. Tell us a little bit about the story of the Tumbelini winery. And your own story as well, which I think sounds very interesting. Well, thank you, Mark. Yeah. The story of the of the winery has has very few parallels in the region. But, you know, history history and tradition is important. But at the same time, it mustn't be a, you know, I say a destiny, you know. I think it's important that every generation renews the perspective and tries to bring, you know, a a a new mentality. So this, I think, is more the mindset, the character of the family, which I care about, and it's a character of, you know, caring for for for the territory and being proud of the territory and, trying to do new things. So, My great grandfather Sante is effectively he escaped death, during the first world war, and, you know, out of that very, a dreadful event actually came back full of life, full of joy of living. Came back by train. He was a little man. He was going around with a sidecar, a sidecar, a line high inherited to this DNA. So I'm also, you know, not so tall. And, he came back, and he started working in Encona. In Encona with my great grandma, they they open close to the port of Ankona. We call it the door to the east, you know, because it connects with the Baskans. He opened this, the shop of, a liquor, spirits, and spices. And at that time, nineteen twenty one, the Vedicchio was mostly sold. It was already known, but it was mostly sold in barrels and not in bottles. The main export was probably to the city of Rome which connects, to the market region since Century because it was part of the papal and the Vatican state. So I think the real passion for wine came to him, because of business, because he was a businessman. And, in nineteen forty four, he bought the first vineyards in San Paulo. One of the first to start bottling also because and, you know, people tend to forget that one of the first from Italy was ridiculous because, the the great variety has this very high acidity, you know, it was perfect for, for us parking wise. And the stories he was telling us is that the soldiers the second world war, the the the the allied, so just so that the American army was quite, pleased by this Pumante from from the amazing. I thought this Pumante was a more recent thing because it, the Vedicchio does indeed make wonderful sparkling wines. Yeah. Sure. And and and, you know, this is, again, part of the history is a bit forgotten, but we have, you know, I have, bottles from nineteen forty six, obviously not drinkable, but, now, but it is a very good, how do you say, historical evidence? Sure. Then, but let's say my my great grandfather was didn't have, the same, you know, openness in terms of mind, mind, mindset, and, you know, view of the world as my grandfather, Giovanni. Giovanni, Giovanni really expanded the the business and the the winery in the, in the fifties and sixties. This is what is called the Italian economic boom. You know, so it started exporting the the the verdicchio in this traditional amphora shaped bottle. All over the world, but, you know, particularly in the state of New York was a was a big, it's a big market for us, but also the UK, Japan, you know, sometimes, this is also something that is forgotten. But before Pinogrisio became Pinogrisio, Italian white wine was also a big. Absolutely. And in that very distinctive bottle, which we'll talk about a little bit further on, but that, amphora bottle, just as Chianti was in its stroke over at Fiasco, and the beautiful amphora that brought La Marque wines and Vedicchio de Castenadiers all over the world many, many years ago. Yes. And and, and then, you know, my mother is the the daughter of Giovanni in, you know, around the year two thousand. She actually pushed, went for another step. She she transformed the winery into, you know, made it bigger. So we we extended the the vineyard two thirty hectares. And then she also introduced this concept of organic farming. We are now certified on most of the vineyard. There is only a bit that needs conversion. In twenty twenty three, we will be fully certified. But, you know, organic in this moment for us is It's a must, and I will consider it, you know, something that everyone needs to needs to do. And so there's no need to talk about it. If you don't do it, it means you don't understand what is happening in the world of it. Culture, And, and then, yeah, myself. Myself, I, I changed my life several times because, like, you know, a winery that's a hundred years in the family. It must be that some periods is better, and some periods are worse. So, you you you cannot always bet on your family to give you, a direction. And, and in my case, I decided to to pursue my own career in London, working for very, very large, investment banks, American institutions. But in two thousand thirteen, my mom gave me a call. And she said, Carlos, we are at a moment in our history where either you step in or everything is lost. And he wasn't funny. He was really a family succession. And, at that point, I I just, I I I thought about it very, very briefly. You know, the decisions, the decision was clear for me. That it was the right time. I was thirty five years old today, I'm forty four, full of energy, full of, enthusiasm, and also full of, love for my mom, it's as easy as that. You know, you have to decide in your life if you want to continue to leave separate from your family and then, you know, whatever happens to them doesn't bother you or you just I just decided a bit on the basis of of, the family bond And, also, I knew that in my life, I would have never been able to recreate and to buy the history of my family. And that's why I've done it. Well, that's a beautiful story. And I like the way you've chased that through the generations. But it still would have been a change of life completely. You're living in London, you're working for an investment bank, and now you move back to the quiet and beauty of the countryside to become a farmer, a winemaker, selling wine around the world. So a completely different change of life. I I I think so, but at the same time, if this might surprise you, but, there is an element of, of the wine business, which is, you know, my, my family comes from an agricultural background. My both my grandfathers were agronomist. One one was was on it, but newer one one was an agronomy story's life. I ended up in the banks, etcetera. Right? But but, you know, sometimes I make a joke that, you know, my Greg my grandfather was evaluating the way the weight of a cow of a bull, and I was evaluating maybe a company, you know, worth, but it's the same job. But but in the end, in the wine, you have this personal relationship. This there is this personal relationship with the producer which is, you become the same thing as the winery and the vineyard. And this is so rewarding that even if you are alone battling against nature and battling against a a a lot of other things, you know, because it's complex, but still you have this reward of the personal contact with your, efficiency with your fan fans, with your, the people who love your wine. And this is unbelievable. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond. Meeting winemakers, eating local food, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. Yes. Absolutely. I can well understand that important link between between the people who are you making wines to enjoy for and that long tradition in your family. Now we we've mentioned a very special grape, Castelie Diazi, being the home of this wonderful grape variety found here and in Matallica, also in Le Marque, but virtually nowhere else on earth, verdicchio. Let's talk about verdicchio and about the way you are making your verdicchio wines. Yeah. Look, verdicchio is is, in my opinion, at this point in time, with what we understood finally of the grade. Is certainly if not the the most important, one of the most important white grape variety of Italy. And the particular thing, and and, you know, verdicchio, as I said, as a tradition, which is now center result in this region. And that means that the relationship between the soils and and and and the microclimate of this region, which as I said in the beginning, is very different from the rest of Italy. We are quite up north. People tend to forget that we are at the same height of Ciano, Florence, but we are on the East. And the East gives you a completely different set of winds. We get the Balkans's winds. We get much cooler weather than the west side of Italy. And then we have a special soil here as well, which is being studied. I done my own study, but, you know, the denomination is gonna come up with a full study. It's a pretty particular soil because it's a five to fifty million years old mix of clay and sandstone. It was a seabed. It was a seabed. It was submerged under the arrear sea. Verdicchio found its own special home here for centuries. If, is used in other regions and in other areas, we'll we'll have a different expression. Why is verdice so special? It's so special because it it it is an extremely versatile grape variety, but also it is age worthy. So you you can create very long and very complex white wines with verdice. It is strange to say this now because historically, the success of ELDito has come from this very fresh, as I said, acidity, fresh style winemaking. It's so versatile that it's quite easy to make an excellent, easy drinking wine with Arditio. However, it's only since maybe twenty years. And even less, that producers have recognized the possibility to create very age worthy wines with verdicule and complex wines. That's that's really important to know, because I think as you say, people remember an easier style of verdicule, but this more structured, more serious. Almost like a red wine that happens to be white, to get that fullness of character. How do you achieve that in extracting this personality from your grapes? First of all, beginning in the vineyard, but also your winemaking techniques. We we focused very strongly on the vineyard. I say this is the reason why I came back because everyone was telling me that that vineyard was producing a special special, great, or special raw material. And what we do, what we do essentially is we farm organically, but particularly we keep the yields low. We are we are working with yields between seven and nine tons. Per per hecta. You know, we work with a single video training pruning technique. And we make sure that the vines, you know, do not get too overloaded with fruit. The other thing we do is which is if you want this practice, I just described, are are getting more and more common in the region. And now we need to deal also with with sun. So we are increasingly keeping the canopies more reach to cover and to prevent any burning of the skins of the of the grapes. And it's something we are managing to achieve quite well. Why is this so important? Because, obviously, we want to create very elegant and crisp wines, and we cannot afford having, you know, any burning from the sun on the grapes. This is, I think, the major things we do on the farming, which in the end, is also quite simple because the weather and the and the conditions of the soil, they they help us. This is one of the features of castellio Diaz. The soil is poor. It's a is a soil which is poorer nutrients, and and this is why verdicchio is exalted here because Verdic is quite a vigorous a vigorous vine. It can have a very strong productions, big productions. But like I said, yes, he struggles. It goes down that the roots go deep, and, we can work with lower yields. And that's and that's where we get more extract from the from the verdice grapes. Carlo fascinated that a time when other producers are is chewing the traditional and famous amphora bottle that we've already talked about the bottle that really put for Nikio on the international wine map. You have returned to your family roots and very proudly sell your flagship wine, the Castel Fjora in a very sleek and beautiful and elegant modern amphora. Tell us your thinking behind the amphora and what it represents to you. Yeah. So the the amphora the amphora is very cute. And, the amphora is a territory. And, I realized after a few years here that there was no better way of immediately showing who we were than this bottle. And, I thought why no one else. I mean, obviously, there is there are there are amphora shaped bottles in the supermarkets. They you see them on the shelves also in the UK, But why nobody is has started already making a classical superior and then a reserve. So the premium, let's say the the best of the denomination into this portal. And why have we forgotten the green color? And then I I made my my my study and I realized, you know, that everyone was a bit paralyzed by the by the history. But, you know, because in my life, I had to change so many times. I thought, you know what? We shouldn't be paralyzed by what by what we wear or by our mistakes. There's always another chance in life. And, I contacted the the best designer in Italy, And, I fought with her for nine months to develop this bottle because she was also, you know, initially skeptical on the whole idea simonita Doni and, in Florence. And we became friends in the end, and now she showcases the bottle on her shelves in her in her study when clients, you know, much bigger names go and visit her. So the idea is I want this bottle to be on the best tables. So I will put in this bottle only the best of my production, which is the opposite of what the others, have done. But I'm not I don't wanna compare to the others. I do it also for the denomination, and I'm very happy that now a lot of colleagues are, you know, rather than skeptically looking at someone who was, you know, he longed on, and maybe this is just like a priest. No. Actually, they understood what I'm trying to do. And they, and they say, let's say they are happy, but I've done it. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone else followed. That's a beautiful story. And, actually, it's a beautiful bottle, and I can see the the the elegance and the importance that comes in this beautiful shape, which, you know, as you say, is returning to tradition, but also going against an element of that tradition when it was a more considered a more easy drinking wine. Well, let's I know you have a family, get together today. I'm imagining you're going to be having a very nice lunch over your family get together. Let's turn to the foods of le Marque, of your area, La Castale, and just talk about foods that go well with this wonderful line verdicchio because it's not Jesse food. It's the more well structured examples, as we're talking about, can accompany many of your wonderful and delicious local dishes. Vildicchio, Vedicchio is, as you said, is, is a bit of, or red, dressed in in white, you know, so it's quite surprising, to taste it, not only with the traditional excellent seafood or lemarque. But, in land, you know, to try it with, our fantastic, and porkette. So it's a rabbit cooked with, some bacon and, and herbs. Or, you know, we're we have some, we have we have a lasagna, special lasagna here, which is called DaVinci's grassy, which we do. We do also with, a, and, and and mushroom. And so the white, white, lasagna, that will be quite nice with the with our verdicchio. And and all the different, you know, also the the soft and the medium cheeses that that that that we produce here, in in le market. So it is a wine that that, surprises from that standpoint because it it it it has this, volume, this presence in your mouth for for a long time, persistent, and and the acidity helps you to smooth, smoothing out, and and and and refresh. Any heaviness that could come from, food that is here, mainly based on ingredients, which are local. And these ingredients are often surprisingly rich in flavor for someone was not was not used to that. Yes. I think Le Marque has a one of the great cuisines of Italy and is not so well known. I love that. Boned and stuffed as a porchetto would be with the Yes. Wild fennel, the garlic, the herbs, cooked in a pot oven, a wood oven ideally. Wonderful foods in the Broadetto from Ancona. Or the beautiful wild mussels from Portonovo wonderful foods to go with wonderful wines. Yeah. I've seen. I've seen your experience quite a lot, Mark. I'm surprised. Oh, yeah. It's one of my favorite areas to visit. I do think that more people should visit Maemarche. It's not so well known as, as you say, the West Coast, the Tuscon Tuscany, and, um, ria, as an area for visitors, but it's an area that people need to visit and discover And whether they need to discover verdicchio. Yes. Sure. This is, this is our pride, and we want to tell the world and everyone to come here and discover discover the amazing thing we have, we have here. Maybe we've been a bit distracted for too long. We've been busy with other things, and we maybe been a bit complacent in Lemark. Lemark is just is a strange combination between the let's say, shyness of being, farming, region or historically farming region, and then the complacency of being, an aerial manufacturing for a very long time. So people are at the same time reserved and also well off. So they don't maybe make a big effort or they just need to do it. But we should, we should, and we want, and we will love to be known and to and to meet people, to show what we can do with our wines. Certainly. Well, I'm I'm sure that many of our listeners who are located all over the world will be fascinated to hear your story and eager to taste your wines as well as to visit on the beautiful Castelli Diaz. Carlo, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's been a real pleasure meeting. Learning your story and learning about your wines. And I do hope I can make it out to visit you sometime soon. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions quests and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.