Ep. 1220 Dan Saladino | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

Some of you have asked how you can help us while most of us would say we want wine. Italian wine podcast is a publicly funded sponsor driven enterprise that needs the Moola. You can donate through Patreon or go fund me by heading to Italian wine podcast dot com. We would appreciate it Oh, yeah. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Binin, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialties that pair naturally with their wines, and the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, it's my great pleasure to welcome and introduce a friend and my guest today. Dan Saladino. Dan is a multi award winning journalist, broadcaster, and author. He is best known for the food programs he produces and presents for the long running weekly BBC Radio four Food Program. His first book Eating to extinction, the world's rarest foods, and why we need to save them was published by Jonathan Cape in twenty twenty one and has already won numerous important awards. It's been hailed as an inspiring and urgent book full of both loss and hope. Welcome, Dan. Thanks for being my guest. How are you today? I'm sure you're you're very busy. I'm I'm very well, Mark, and, great to be catching up with you again. And, on on this particular subject as well, because we've crossed pals over so many years with so many shared interests as well. So I've been looking forward to this conversation. Yeah. Me too, Dan. I'm really looking forward to it. I'd like to take our listeners, first of all, a little bit into your life as a producer and presenter of the food program. Tell us about this really remarkable and utterly unique weekly radio program dedicated to everything about food and drink. How did you come to be involved? Well, I'd been working for the BBC for more than a decade. By the time I started working on the food program, and I'd worked in general news programs, so television, radio, daily news, and then a few programs longer form, so documentaries, investigative programs. And then I was invited to join the food program, and I had been a listener for many, many years. And this is a program with incredible history, really. Nineteen seventy nine, launched by a really respected journalist, Derek Cooper. Yes. I remember Derek. And, a wonderful broadcaster, an extremely memorable voice as well. And so seek out any archive you can find of Derek Cooper. But like me, he'd been a general journalist, but had become obsessed. With, food and farming stories, and particularly in the nineteen seventies, which is relevant to the conversation we'll be having because he was concerned that so much was being lost across Britain when it came to its food history. So he'd initially spent a few years from nineteen seventy two to seventy eight recording for television. Some of Britain's disappearing food traditions from cheese makers, cider makers, heel and pie pie and mash sellers in the east end of London, wonderful television programs and was then convinced that the audience, BBC audiences needed something as a more regular platform in which they could hear about traditions, but also the contemporary issues around food. He launched the food program in nineteen seventy nine, It's been running ever since. So, you know, more than forty years on, at the time, he he was given six programs initially, and they went very well. And he had a conversation with the controller of radio four and said, can we make some more enplaceable Derek, you know, for six thirty minute programs, it's only food. And what more is there to say? And, as I say, that, you know, the the food as he understood it, and as I see it, and as the food program exists to explore, is a lens on the world. There are very few stories you cannot tell as a journalist through food and drink, and that's what we do. It's a thirty minute weekly program where each week is a is a theme, a an idea, a story. It's very much about food and drink and farming, but also there is so much more in there. It's about economics, it's about culture, politics, science, so much. And I was fortunate enough to be invited on. I thought I'd stay for one year, and it's been now fifteen or so years. Wow. That's amazing. Working with your co presenter, Sheila Dillon. Absolutely. Now sheila, the sheila started working with Derek towards the end of the nineteen eighties. She stepped in and was was much needed because that that at that point in the UK, we had, BSE, a huge and an important episode in in our food history, a huge scandal as well. And that's where the food program really like no other because it's not And this is because it's radio as well. Obviously, it's not so much a cooking and recipe program. It really is food journalism and an exploration of food history and science. And so when big stories such as BSE, which at time is called mad cow disease. Yes. I remember it. It was a shocking time. Absolutely. And and so it needed a program, such as the the food program to really explain to, audiences, not only what was happening, but why it was happening, what the causes are. And also what the stemic issues were that that you needed to understand in that in that story. So Sheila stepped in, and when Derek moved on from being a presenter in the early two thousands and retired, Sheila, who was his producer, became the food program presenter. Okay. Well, that's a good recap of this long running and much loved and important show. You are actually you can see, research, record, produce the programs yourself. I know using quite portable equipment, you travel to places near and far all around the world. So there's a quite a technical side to what you're doing as well as the journalistic side. Yeah. I mean, I'd spent some time in television during that period I mentioned of the of the of being a a daily news journalist. And I just found it frustrating because the idea that to tell a story you had to have the pictures, and I think the beauty with radio is that I can just travel anywhere in the world with a microphone and a small recorder, capture a story, and then bring that to life for the listeners. And, you know, it's a cliche, but I think it's true that, you know, the best pictures are on the radio because it's in your mind, your imagination, and in the words of the broadcaster and their script and the voices and sounds they are collecting. And for me, you know, I'd I'd spent years telling all kinds of stories, but for some reason, the food stories and stories of food history and the way in which people had survived and thrived in so many different ways across the planet really, really resonated with me. And those were the stories I fell in love with, and that's why I think I've just stayed on the the food program for so long. Right. Well, you certainly covered some really fascinating stories, dad. I think we first met at Taramadre, the slow food gathering of global food communities in Turin some years ago. We did. Yeah. And you've made you've made important programs about slow food and its ideals. Why has slow food been, inspirational organization? Well, I think particularly in the UK, and I think this is also the case in many other parts of the world. Slow food might not have the same kind of impact it, it's, has had in Italy, and also in in pre you could argue in parts of Africa. For me, when I was having conversations with people in this organization that was founded in the nineteen eighties in in the north of Italy as a as a response in a way to the homogenization of of food cultures around the world that that there was a movement underway and quite a political movement as well about Why is it that so many traditional regional ingredients, dishes, animal breeds, crops, etcetera, were fading away disappearing, and slow food as a movement was founded by Carlo Petrini at that time. It's had a huge impact, but it isn't always the case in some parts of the world, and it doesn't often manifest itself in that more politicized way. So when I had the opportunity to start traveling for the food program inevitably perhaps, it took me to some of the big set piece events that slow food arrange for, you know, international attendees. So people come from people travel from all over the world to attend events such as Terra Madre, which is held every two years. In in Turin. And that brings together all of the activists, the campaigners, the food producers, and so on who are engaged with this same mission, really, which is to to stop more of the world becoming more the same in when it when it comes to food and farming. There are other side events as well, which are held in the in the years in between. So there's cheese, which is held in bra, which is the organizational center of of slow food, the town of bra, and then there's fish, which is dedicated as the name implies to the oceans, marine environment, and also our relationship with Fish as a as a food. And it was actually outfished. That that was the first low food event that that I attended, and it blew my mind. I mean, just the ideas that in one place, You could walk through, in some cases, an exhibition space or event space or, like, a farmer's market effectively, and there would be people from the Americas, from Africa, from different parts of Asia, across Europe. Each of them telling the story of their region, their place, the skills, the knowledge, the foods that had been part of their identity and their ancestors identity for hundreds, if not thousands of years. And so as a journalist, being able to move one stall or stand a table to a to another and just find one amazing story and then step into another. It it was like a treasure trove. And so when I made it to Tara Madre, which is, I I guess, the biggest, in in terms of scale, the number of attendees from different parts of the world, that was, yeah, is like finding the mother load of food stories. And you know, everything that you could imagine from cheese stories to stories of of wheat and rice to, you know, let legumes pulses, but also, I think just people's cultures and their histories. And, you know, the different biodiversity that you find around the world, all of that in one place. And so as you say, Mark, I I've made numerous programs. And, also, the other really important thing, you know, we met at Terra Marjorie, but that's the other thing. It's a vast global network of people engaged in these food stories. So you you the whole world opens up to you, and it means that you end up with contacts and friends, experts in all, you know, parts of the world. Yeah. So I think it's it's incredibly humbling to see people in some cases, they'd never left their village. And yet somehow through slow food, they'd been able to come to Turin, tell their stories, show what they had, you know, foods that have been part of their tradition for generations and centuries and forever ready. And to have that global gathering was is is so inspirational. And, you know, if you produce some wonderful programs that have come from that. Now, Dan, I know that slow foods concern with endangered foods and the need to protect them, was in part the inspiration behind your book, eating to extinction. Can you explain the premise of the book? Well, yeah, and it it really did begin at at Terra Marjorie. So I guess the idea that you can bring the world together and establish this network of people who are concerned and want to preserve a lot of the diversity that exists around the world is is quite an overwhelming endeavor, really. And how do you find your way through that? Well, luckily, slow food created some projects to give it a sense of identity, but also organization. And so there is something called the arc of taste, which is an online catalog, effectively a long list of the world's most endangered foods. And the arc as in Noah's arc of taste is a collection of now five and a half thousand foods in more than a hundred and fifty different countries. So if somebody in the world is working to save, you know, whether it's a rice variety, a breed of chicken, a type of cheese, any conceivable food that you could you can imagine. They they have a place where they can share their story and say this food is part of where I am in the world. It's part of my identity, my inheritance, but it's disappearing. It's disappearing for these reasons. And so when I just when I came across Ark of taste, as a project within this vast network of slow food international and also the idea that Tara Madre, you can physically see some of these foods on display and meet the people who've put them onto the catalog. When I was invited to write a book back in twenty seventeen, there was no hesitation in my mind what that book needed to be. It needed to be for me a collection of the stories that stood out for me from the arc of taste. And I then had can you imagine the challenge of then being faced by this catalog of five and a half thousand foods, thinking, okay, I need to extract a small number of those foods to to write a book. And and this was a really important process for me because I I made dedicated additions of a food program based around the arc of taste. And, you know, I could just go from one week to the next, telling one story, and another, and that could have gone on forever. In writing a book where I had to come up with a narrative and an explanation of why should we care about these foods. I had to do way more research than I'd ever done as a radio broadcaster because you go from one week to the next. You make a twenty eight minute program, and then you move on. With the book, I had to really think why do these foods matter? Why are they not just quaint traditions from different parts of the world that should eventually fade away into history and and memories? And that's when I started to have a kind of a more holistic view of how did these foods fit into our food history globally? You know, why did that diversity of foods exist in the first place? Why did it disappear? And then the why should we care. And that's when eating to extinction really came into its own because it is a history of us, our relationship with nature, with the planet, how we have fed ourselves as humans, over thousands and thousands of years, and also why is it that in such a short space of time that is fundamentally changed, and we have lost so much diversity from the world, and people are now more familiar with the with the term biodiversity. We're speaking now, Mark, at the time when there's a cop, a UN cop meeting based around biodiversity, but that wasn't such a familiar word being used ten years ago. There's also an additional word agro biodiversity agricultural, biological diversity. Not an easy thing to say, but what that does is capture the idea that in different parts of the world, there are foods, crops, animals, etcetera that have adapted to those particular conditions have been shaped by the landscape, by the ecosystem, but also cultural preferences as well by, you know, the preferences of cooks and farmers, etcetera. And so we end up in the world over thousands and thousands of years huge amounts of diversity that provided resilience in those different parts of the world. Huge amounts of adaptation to climate, to high temperatures, low temperatures, a lot of water, lack of water, so on and so on. What happened in the twentieth century is that as we adopted and and had more kind of breakthroughs when it comes to science and technology, we were able to take more and more control over nature. And almost override the need we thought for these regionally and locally adapted foods and use chemicals and other technologies, fertilizers, to create a system where we could produce huge amounts of calories and in the green revolution after the second world war, that's we what we did, you know, at an incredible pace. So what happened very quickly in a short space of time because of the new technologies of crop genetics, plant breeding, irrigation systems, being able to produce with fossil fuels, huge amounts of fertilizer, we could override all of that adaptation from thousands of years and quite quickly around the world, the same kind of seeds, the same kind of farming systems spread around the world, and we lost huge amounts of diversity. In eating to extinction, I wanted to revisit some of the foods that were disappearing and endangered, find out why they were so important historically also the the crucial question, why do we need them for the future? And we now live in a world in which we realize that biodiversity loss is a huge problem. The amount of fossil fuels that we've been using for the modern agricultural system is hugely problematic in terms of emissions and climate change. We know that the food we've been producing for decades and decades is not good for us and when it comes to health. You know, and also we need resilience. We've created a highly productive, high yielding system, but it's fragile. And so what I've been doing, well, what I did when in writing the book and what I've been following ever since is the, you know, the science really is telling us that we need this diversity. We need some of the genetics from the, you know, the wheats and the rices and the maze that disappeared a long time ago because they have the traits, the genetic traits that can help us resist pests and diseases deal with drought tolerance, for example. And so heating to extinction became a campaign really to say these aren't foods of the past. They are foods of the future. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. Yes. I, it it really is an important story that you've related. But Dan, what I think is, so special about your book is that these are big arguments. They're big important concerns. That we are all looking at, but you bring this to a human level. These stories, a collection of stories of categories of food and drink, wild, cereal, vegetable meat from the sea, fruit, cheese, alcohol, and so on. In each of these, categories of food and drink, you, take us intimately into the human story, as well as the the crop itself, the food itself. And really, I think you make the reader want to cheer on these producers and and and sample the foods ourselves because as you say, they shouldn't be saved simply because they're endangered. But there has to be a reason behind that. They have to be good. They have to be special. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're absolutely right, Mark. And I think I wanted the book. I'm not I'm not an academic. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a farmer or, you know, or a chef. I collect stories and I share stories. And the book is structured in such a way that there are around forty specific foods. Each one is a lens on a on a bigger story and put them together. You get, you know, hopefully this big picture of of our food history and our food future. And it's it's broken down into ten sections, all different food groups. So for example, it goes from wild in in which I spend spend some time with hunter gatherers in East Africa and a practice of collecting honey that we think has been practiced by homo sapiens and further back human ancestors for almost a million years. In the in the second section, which is about grains and cereal, you know, so we go from the transition of hunter gatherers to the early farmers. I tell the story of a of a type of wheat that's grown in in what is the the fertile crescent. So I traveled to south eastern turkey to tell the story of an Emma wheat, which is one of the original wheat species that were domesticated when hunter gatherers ten, twelve thousand years ago in that part of the world shifted from, you know, more nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle to one in which they settled and started to domesticate and select from wild grasses, including wild wheats, and then Emma is one of the most important and original of the domesticated wheats. The people, for example, who built pyramids would have been farming and eating and and pricing Emma as a wheat. So for thousands and thousands of years, Emma, before bread weeks was one of the most important weeks in the world. And I found a village in in Turkey where farmers were still growing, Emma. And so it's possible it had been growing in that or being planted and and seed saved and and the food eaten for more than eight thousand years. Now the reason why that matters, it not only did it tell me the story of us, early farmers, the transition from hunter gatherers to, you know, serial growers, and I guess that changed the world, really, that. So in in in that in that story, it really is a big leap in human history. But also in in the modern era, and we are having problems with the impact of climate change, on the spread of fungal diseases that are impacting wheat growing in many different parts of the world. So there there are diseases which we never read about in the in newspapers and other coverage, wheat blast, for example, fusarium head blight. This is devastating for farmers, but such is the uniformity of wheat now because of the spread of these high yielding varieties that the the resistance really in the global crop is is has been undermined and what scientists are finding in these older wheats, and the one I found was called Cavaljar, are traits that are resistant to these diseases, far more resistant to these diseases, have huge amounts of nutrition, so traces of minerals that are much higher than in the the modern crop. And also they are capable of growing in really adverse conditions. So in the case of the village, I went to in Turkey, high altitude, quite damp. Not much else actually would grow there apart from this traditional wheat. So but it's not just that food security argument. I went there and and meeting the people who are looking across their field saying, we love the beauty of this crop in our fields. We love the smell of it when it's cooking. We feel when we eat it, it's like medicine to us. Yeah. That's beautiful. You know, so I think that idea that this in, you know, intersection between why why was it that this crop has been saved for so long by by generation after generation of farmer. And and that the fact that this community was able to survive in these, remote places with this food, that should instruct us really that, and we should be humble to think that history and tradition can teach us something and that these quite simplistic reductionist techno fixes in which we think we can just, you know, come up with another new chemical treatment or another new modern irrigation system that will help us get through this current food crisis. Well, actually, we should look back and think these crops, these plants, these foods have been tested for thousands and thousands of years. What can we learn today? And we need to learn quickly because they are disappearing. So cavill jar and wheat is one really important example. Dan, when, in your chapter on wine, for example, going back in the past, as you're describing, you decided to go back to the cradle of wine making to Georgia, to meet people, making wine in a way that's been done for seven thousand years, fermenting grapes simply in terracotta wine jars buried in the ground. Tell us a little bit about this story. Yeah. Well, I I, again, it's this this intersection between the, you know, the importance of culture, identity, tradition, but also the fact that, these stories these stories can really teach us so much about where we've where we've been in the last century in in in our relationship with food and drink. So Georgia, I traveled from east to west, and I met many, many, of the, winemaker still using the amphora, the quivery. And, again, because of, you know, twenty twentieth century history and, you know, the the the impact of the Soviet Union so much was lost from that, you know, seven, eight thousand year tradition that you you you mentioned. And there was huge amounts of biodiversity also that's relevant here. So I think recorded in Georgia around five hundred indigenous grape varieties, which were reduced towards the middle of the twentieth century, just down to a handful of officially sanctioned grape varieties in wine making, and Georgia became the source of wine for for for Russia and other parts of the Soviet Union. So, you know, what was a a a long ancient tradition became a commodity? But in in recent years, people have revived some of these indigenous great varieties and also the practice of making wine in the amphora which are buried underground, predating the barrel by thousands and thousands of years, an ingenious device because of its shape and the fermentation that unfolds inside the vessel. The reason that story is so important for me, and this is why I I wrote it up this way in the book is that surrounding that wine is a deep tradition and culture. So, for example, the Supra, the meals in which There is song. There are speeches given by the tomato, the toastmaster as well. You know, our relationship with wine can be special, but there, you really you really understand the importance of of a fruit and that that technique of producing a drink that that has that thousands and thousands of years behind it. It's part. It's it's almost a wine coursing through their blood, through their veins in a in a way. So that that that's one reason why it's such a powerful story. The other one is is that the sense that the simplicity almost, but the ingenuity of producing these wines inquiry where there are absolutely no other inputs being used to craft to produce these delicious wonderful wines with, you know, the skill of what's happening in the, you know, with the with the growing of the grapes, but also, you know, obviously, the the skill of using the Quevery as well. And what I do in the in that particular chapter is just talk about what happens in from the nineteen sixties, unfolding tickly from France where you had some really important research to try and get rid of some of the problems in in winemaking, particularly because France wanted to be in a position where it could export more and more wine. But what you end up with is a situation in which you have techniques new science, technology, spreading out from France with consultants, and in a sense huge amounts of diversity of great varieties and winemaking is lost. And that does spread around the world quite quickly in the decades after the nineteen sixties. And in a sense, what I see in the Georgia story where, again, what they're doing is seven, eight thousand years old, but a lot of observers might be might describe it as almost like the in tune with the the new era of natural winemaking. But in a sense, what it what it reminds us, this is winemaking. This is what winemaking was for thousands and thousands of years, and we can learn so much from that because of the diversity that they've protected, really, of of techniques and also the the biodiversity of of the, you know, what what's found in the in the vineyards as well. So I think it's an inspirational story because it reminds us what wine was, what wine can be. Absolutely. It's a story full of hope, especially after the the vandalism as you put it of the Soviet Union. I think in fact that that story, is probably the one that is does give most cause for optimism and hope because we have seen such a flourishing, again, in a relatively short space of time for the post sixties, huge, huge convergence lots of uniformity, you know, focus on a relatively small number of great varieties and the tweaking of in, you know, in the process to hit the marks for, you know, for some very influential, you know, wine writers, wine wine critics. What we've seen Ticking in the last decade is a flourishing of diversity and expression that had been lost. You could argue in the in the in the seventies and eighties and and and nineties. So I think it is a really hopeful, optimistic story of how diversity can be reclaimed, that traditions from the past can be put into place in a in a modern twenty first century context and and developed and advanced. And so, yeah, it's a it's a revival of something that was lost. Yes. And actually quite relevant to Italian wines because I think Italy, has, you always maintain this great wealth of indigenous and native grape varieties that we're increasingly finding available, out even outside of outside of their zone of production in other parts of Italy, but increasingly, in export markets too. There's a pride, and it it what's what it makes Italian wines sometimes difficult for people coming to Italian one because there's so many great varieties they've never heard of, but that's what makes it so fascinating and interesting. And I think what I see in my other work is it's so difficult perhaps now becoming impossible to be a small scale commodity producer for local economies for small scale farmers and food producers to try and compete in that world of uniformity with yet another commodity isn't gonna work. I think diversity, whether they were a cheese maker, you know, or somebody producing wine being distinctive. And as you say, you know, there are unique varieties and landscapes and, flavors Absolutely. That actually can mean a, you know, a family farm, a family, winemaking business can survive in that world of, you know, more increasingly homogenous commodities. Yep. Absolutely. Now, Dan, I know you're also organizing a very important initiative that's taking place on January thirteenth, food diversity today. Can you tell us about this? Yeah. It's well, this I've been lucky enough to, spend a lot of time traveling, after the book came out and giving talks as as we've been discussing, you know, some of the stories from the book and why I think diversity matters and why we should be concerned about it being lost. And people kept coming up to me after in in in the session saying, well, what can we do? You know, is there any way we can reverse this? And and so, people who've been inspired by the book are coming together on the thirteenth of January for food diversity day. And quite simply, it's a celebration of the diversity that still exists and a call to action, a call to action that wherever you are, if you're joining us in some of the sessions that we're holding on the on the day, you too can be involved in helping to support, to save, and, and, and, yeah, keep this diversity alive. So the very easiest way to get involved is to join some of the online sessions, which are being made available or free to access through eventbrite. This will be in the new year in January. And we, yeah, we'll we'll have we'll be having sessions involving some great speakers as well. So brilliant academics, lots, lots of, chefs involved, writers as well, you're gonna be helping, in the drink session, Mark. So that's that's wonderful. Yes. Looking forward to it. Yeah. But it's gonna be everything starting the day with, well, why does diversity matter? And we'll be hearing from Tim Specter, professor Tim Specter, who's focus is nutrition, Tim Benton, who's, you know, more interested in the global food security side of things, and Melissa Thompson, food writer who's interested in the cultural things. So we're gonna be just going through the reasons why we should care about, food diversity. And then after that, sessions which are mostly geared towards different foods. So we'll have sessions on grains, bread, baking. We're talking about some of the most endangered cheeses and the and the cheese makers who are saving them. We're gonna be looking at meat and dairy, how chefs can be helpful in preserving foods in the arc of taste, talking about fish species, and, can we have get more diversity on our plates and why is that important for the future of the oceans pulses? So we've got a wonderful session lined up on peas and beans and people who were reviving lost lost legumes, really, huge amounts of interest in in in that for not just the culinary side of things, but also as a farming system. Cities. So we're gonna be looking at markets, and and the way in which food is bought for schools and hospitals, can that be part of saving diversity and drinking in which we will be bringing together you and Sarah Abbott, master of wine, and somebody involved in the Oldvine's conference talking about wine, but also joined by beer writers and somebody from the States who is helping to preserve Agave, and diversity of landscapes in Oaxaca. Through a project involving mezcal. So fascinating stuff. Really, really fascinated. I can't wait, Dan. Now for our listeners who may be listening to the podcast after January thirteenth, how will they be able to access these discussions? These discussions will be recorded and available online. And so if you look at YouTube and go to just type in food diversity day, but also there is a website. So food diversity day dot com. That's food diversity day dot com. Okay. Great. Well, good luck with all that, Dan. I'm really looking forward to being involved, and I know it's going to be a great day. It will. Thank you, Mark. Yeah. I'm looking forward to very excited. Dan, it's been a real pleasure talking to you this morning, and Thanks so much for being my guest today. I wish you and your family the very best for, happy Christmas and holidays. And, I look forward to catching up with you very soon. Thank you, Dan. All the best. And the same to you and all the listeners as well, Mark. Thank you very much. Thank you. See you soon. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.