Ep 2322 Ambrogio Cremona Ratti of Tenuta Sette Cieli in Tuscany| Wine, Food & Travel

So, means, a state of seven skies. And that is because of the position of the state and the feeling you get once you're there. So to give you a sense of place, we're located on top of the first ridge of hills that runs parallel to the Mediterranean Sea. We're at three hundred and fifty four hundred meters altitude, and we're on the top of this hill, and that rolled down, and then it's flat until the sea, and we get this incredible view of the Mediterranean, and there's a sensor that you're really on top of something, and we clear views in every direction. Wow. Wonderful. That just sounds stunning. Fascinating people with stories to share, fabulous wines, and the best local foods to accompany them, and beautiful places to discover and visit. All of this and more on wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast. Join me for a new episode every Tuesday. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we traveled to Tuscany, to the prestigious wine zone of Bulgaria and more precisely to Monteverde Maritomo. Between Bulgaria and Castanietto Carducci, to meet my guest, Ambrojo, cremonorati, of the tenuta Cete chili wine estate. Buongiorno Ambrojo. How are you today? And is it a beautiful day in Monteverde? Good morning, Mike. Yes. It is actually. It's a sunny day. Very happy about this. And, everything is well here. Thank you. Does that mean spring has already arrived? Oh, yes. It's coming. It's been very rainy so far, but now we're we're getting, a sudden transition into warmer days and, the sun is getting warmer and warmer, and we get these cool mornings and a very warm day that in the early afternoon. So it's great. Nice spring feeding. I guess that winter rain that you've had a wet winter has been good for you. That allows, the vineyards to soak up that moisture in anticipation of the hotter summers we've been having. Yes. Absolutely. The idea, all these rains will have to replenish the, all the water reservoirs and, So that's helpful and and, gave us a a good common hump to to brush this through maybe drier season. Let's see. It's been a challenging because it didn't didn't allow us to enter the vineyard March. Okay. Sure. So it cut us a little bit still. So we're eager to get to work. But, yes, it's been, hopefully, we get a a nice spring, not to wet now, you know, the that it will allow us to proceed with working in the vineyard and, set up everything well. Yep. Good. Well, I hope that good weather continues. And because I know this is a very busy time of year in anticipation of the vines coming back to life and the whole cycle beginning. Grozier, we met when you introduced your wines, and I learned about you and, and I'm eager to share your story with our listeners who are located all around the world. I wanna begin with a discussion about Bulgeri, which really has emerged as one of Italy's greatest wine zones in a relatively brief time. And over the last five decades, it's become the source of some of the most prestigious wines that are sought all around the world. But the area itself still remains mainly off the beaten track for many wine lovers who come to Italy, who come to Tuscany. Can you, first of all, tell us about the Bulgetti wine zone, and then also about where tenuta Cetticelli is located What's a countryside like? Give our listeners a visual representation of of where you are. Oh, absolutely. So, Bulgaria to me, it's a very special place. I actually had trouble before, sensory around Tuscany and bug it. It's a unique location because there's the both, you get the sense of the Tuscan hills and the forest and the contact with the sea, which to me is extremely precious. And also, it's a very pristine area in the sense that the area was extremely underdeveloped. There were just a few villages, and there wasn't much. So first of all, analogically, the history of burglary in wine terms, it it's very recent. One used to be made there, but, only white wine and table wine, nothing fancy. And the the area used to be cultivated, but more for traditional agriculture, potatoes, and stuff like that in the lower part of Bulgaria. There were a few families that had a lot of land historically in the area, and they were all related to the Gauradesca family, which holds a family on the Dutch chunk of Tuscany. And, one of these families married, into the Inchiza family, and the marin cheese at LaRoceta is the man that we have to thank for what we have today in Mulberry with wine, because Marienci lular Oceta was a, an incredible figure and, a visionary who was, a wine lover, very knowledgeable and passionate about wine. He used to travel extensively to bordeaux, And he found similarities between his estates in Boulder, which were used primarily for hunting and vocationing, and, the soil, and, it's in front of the seed that you get in Bordeaux. So this brought him to start to experiment in his property, Azerias, the forties of late late forties and fifties and start planting some cabernets on the lows. And, he produced wine for his family for many, many years. Which I, in finance, he's a winemaking capabilities and also the agriculture approach. And, he then said that really is the wine very famously in the seventies, Sakaia, which is his wine, won a blind tasting against the board, dopa Mercruz in Paris. And that put Paul Green in the map all of a sudden, and, people realized that there was potential to make great border varieties on the coast of Tuscany. In Tuscany, I had been dominated by St. Jervais until then. Sachioveda doesn't really thrive in Bulgaria. Everybody was shocked, and, it jump started an area, which went from having no wineries, as I said, from Saskaya to having, a few wineries in the eighties. The first, who followed suit were on Alaya, then I'm Cratamago Mikalesata afterwards and, the Antinores, obviously. And that boom in the eighties really made people realize that there was incredible potential in the area. Susicaiah became more and more famous throughout the years. And by the nineties, it was quite well recognized. And by then, that's roughly when I, myself, moved to to Bulgaria in nineteen ninety four. The Bogidiosia was being formed, and the more and more producer were moving to the area. If we jump to today, today, we have around sixty, sixty five producers in the Bulgaria EOC. And, so it's been, a relatively quick expansion, but it's still a very small area. Geographically, when I travel around and I see other BOCs or wine regions. You get the sense that there's usually they're quite a bit bigger, buggery in in itself. It is, around the thirteen hundred actors. So not a lot of wine is is made there. But it's very appreciated now. And, Brojo, just a question. Why do you think, you know, Italy has across the whole country. There's so many wineries, and, you know, almost anywhere has the potential to produce wine. Does produced wine and has always produced wine. I'm curious as to why this area that's now been discovered is one of the areas most located to producing grapevine. Why there was no wine here in the past? Is it to do with the nature of the terrain? I know you have your challenges of working the terrain, which we'll talk about, but it's curious to me that such a great wine zone has only been discovered in the last fifty, sixty years. Well, you have to consider that the area of Bugri was, roughly be underdeveloped since it was mostly forest, a few farmers here and there, and, it wasn't a rich area to begin with. So people actually went by relatively simple lives until the eighteen hundreds the end of eighteen hundreds. And, there wasn't so much space. People obviously tried to plant vines just to both to eat grapes and to to make a little bit of wine, which was extremely common to make a little bit of wine for themselves. But most of from my experience, the land that is good for wine is not first the land where you want to grow food. So for instance, the lander, we have a set of Shirley, which is arianna Hills, and it's an area that is fantastic for wine, but sometimes I wonder how did people manage to live off that land for food to grow wheat and vegetables because it's a very aggressive soil in a sense. It's it's a lot of clay, limestone, very, very rocky. So it's an area that didn't explode economically and moment extremely wealthy, and that I think kept everybody focused on getting by and, more regular agriculture than on making wine. And, it was also owned by big families. And if no one, yeah, they're usually at the States, also another parcel of task in Europe, So there wasn't the pressure to produce wine there, and there wasn't enough economy, enough, wealth for people to just play around and experiment. Okay. That's a really, really good overview and explanation. And I think it's important for our listeners to Really understand how recent of Bulgaria is this these some of the greatest wines in the world being produced in the small, small enclave on the Tuscon Seaboard or above the Tuscon Seaboard. Now, your own story then, Ambrojo begins with your mother. Is that right? What was her dream? And why is the estate called tenuta Ceta Cieli? So tenuta Cieli means, a state of seven skies, and that is because of the position of the estate and the feeling you get once you're there. So to give you a sense of place, we're located on top of the first ridge of hills that runs parallel to the Mediterranean Sea. So we're at three hundred and fifty four hundred meters altitude, and we're on the top of this hill, and that rolled down, and then it's flattened in the sea, and we get this incredible view of the Mediterranean. And there's a sensor that you're really on top of something and with clear views in every direction. So that means that if you look north, you see Castillo de Bulgaria and the forest, if you look south, you see a glimpse of ElBile, and and the coast of drums down twenty seven chainsaw. While if you look east, you see the rolling hills going back inland. And if you look west, you see the plains and the sea. Because of this position being so high up, it's very windy. The sky tends to be very clear. You can break visibility. And, everywhere you look, you get the sky everywhere in the sense that you're over exposed. Because you're so high, your eyesightles fuse a lot lower, and you get the sense of, of sky surrounding you. Wow. Wonderful. That just sounds stunning. Yes. And the light is incredible with sunsets at night, the stars, the change of colors, the dawn, with the sun coming up from the hills behind. To me, it's a magical place. I traveled a lot, but, I'm yet to find a a place that beats the feeling that you get there. With a sense of being exposed to the elements and the sky, feel really like. It gives you a good sense of perspective, I think. And set the chilly mean seven skies, which is, of course, all these glimpses that you get. The top of the hill. And, also, in Italian, we use a sooner setting of shale oil as a way of saying, like, I'm at the seventh sky, and as a seventh and sky also can be met as heavens, Charlie. So, the reference to the seven heavens and, in Italianization. I'm at the seventh heaven to Okay. When you're most, happy and, and realize. Yes. So and, going back to our personal story, it's now a family story. As with everyone in my services with my mother. I was born, in Northern Italy where my mother grew up and where my mother and my father are from. So my family, my mother's family, comes from the tax and business. My grandfather, was, a very ingenious man who, started off as an artist making drawings for paisley's that would then be printed on silk to go on scarves, fullars, and, ties. He started off as a simple artist making the drawings that would then be printed. And from there, he founded that his own printing company and, Ruth tremendously, and that was very prosperous in the seventies and eighties and nineties. And it was very strongly connected to the fashion world. It was one of the accidents that's producing silk prints in Italy, in Northern Italy, in the area of coma, which has always been renowned, for this for many years. And then my mother was part of this for a long long time. And then after, separated with my father when I was around five. After a while, she felt that, she wanted to do her own thing and move out of the cities and, dedicate herself to her passion, which were horses and, Tuscany has a lot of space and a lot of people that work with horses. So we moved, when I was, eight, not to Bulgaria because we didn't have, buy anything there yet, but to Capal, in the southern, Tuscany, we lived why my mother was looking for a property on the coast of Tuscany. By nineteen ninety four, we should found this, what is now set to Shirley, which is in a state originally around the eighty actors inside. So quite big on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere surrounded by forest. And the property when we purchased it was completely abandoned. It was a house from the twelve hundreds, falling down when we bought it, it was just ruins, there was no roof, a few walls, and a lot of, plans had taken over the place. And the road to go up the hill was, dramatic conditions. And, Estrada Bianca then. Yeah. No. It used to be when we bought the property, it used to be that, it's a starter behind car. When we bought the property, it used to be that it's we couldn't go up with a normal car. It would break it. Oh, my. Only only jeeps, and it was a that on the road to go off from the Bulgaria. It's five and a half kilometers long. So it's quite a long way. You know, going up in the middle of the forest until then you pop up on top of the hills, and you get this incredible view. So, the area was just, visited by hunters, and, some people, some military, he's parachuted there, just because there was no one around to train. So it was an extremely remote spot. Amazing, Ambrojo. What a brave decision today. Yeah. No. It wasn't quite a bug there. Oh, and crazy as well if the house is completely in ruins. We had no water. We still have we had no water, no electricity. So at the beginning, when we first moved there, it took us many years to build, and we we felt like being on a boat because we had we had general power generators, battery packs, and, our own ways. So I we're was a completely independent, situation. So very fascinating quite a challenge. And that was part of your childhood seeing this whole project come to Absolutely. Fulfillment and realization. But, as your mother was creating this amazing place, she didn't have wine in mind at that point. Did she? So when we purchased a place, not at all. Then, right, after we purchased the property, we moved to the town of Bogery. And for many years, we lived in the town of Bogery and then right next to the village in house, called Bellaria, which used to be surrounded by Olegrios, but now it's on Malaya vineyards. And, living there, we came to know everybody. There's very few people. So if you could just to give you, a frame, an idea, Bulgaria had back then one hundred and twenty five people living there. So Amazing. Amazing. Extreme is more. I used to go along to the town as a kid, and there were, like, three or four kids in the whole town. It was a a pretty special situation. And this is this famous line of Cyprus's at, in the Carducci poem. Yes. Bulgaria goes from the aurelia. The viale, the cipressi, which is really beautiful, goes from the aurelia road to the town of Bulgaria. Okay. A few words just because, as you know, and passionate about history about the aurelian. The aurelian is this incredible thing, which is this road that goes from Rome all the way to nice in France, which was, commissioned unveiled by Marcos Aurelio. And, it was one of great infrastructures of the Roman Empire, and, it's been, a reference point in geography for a long long time. The aurelia runs parallel to the sea, along with the coast. And then it's, Bongren is just going up at the foothills. Okay. So Okay. And when we were living there, we came to know some people we knew already, some people we came to know then. So we came to not meet for Rancita, a lot of producers from the area. And we realized that, the lender we have bought, some of it had incredible potential for wine. Just was so remote and so extreme, and, also outside of the proper buggery area because although it's a weird situation in which it's the province that's back on the hills has this little piece of land that protrudes towards the coast, and that is where we're actually at. So we we're in a different actual province. Although, if we have to go somewhere, we go through the area of Bulgaria. The roads are we're connected to the other side. So What province are you in? We're in province of Piza, actually. In Bulgaria. In livorno. Okay. So right on the confine. Yeah. Yeah. The there's this weird protrusion of Pisa that is right where we are that extends, closest to the sea. Okay. So I it'll, administratively, where where it was in different zone. But, the soil profile and then the climate is was very similar to some of the first vineyards of Sasekaya. And, so because they're just a few miles, just one or two miles north, and with a very similar soil profile. So The stony, very stony soil then. Exactly. So you get this yeah. So you got the with this soil, which is very particular, a lot of clay. So it becomes very hard on crusty when it's dry. And then when it's wet, it becomes extremely slippery. And if you walk there after it's drained, then you're we'll have a few pounds of mud stuck to your shoes. Yes. I think it quickly. And a lot of iron and mineral quartz So it's a very, very, very precarious as well. So it's a very particular type of story, which is a disaster for regular agriculture because if you have to, like, grow your produce from it, it's quite rough. Even if you only take into account how rock it is, it's a problem. But for vines, it's fantastic because you get this sense of stress of pressure on the plant, which naturally guides the vine to producing fantastic concentration, great minerality because of the the content of the soil. So there's a a very interesting, situation which is just wait for wine in which you there's really a great imprint of the soil and, the climate on the vines, which really helps. And it gets what guides what we do essentially. Okay. Now, Ambrojo, as you were growing up and seeing this estate come to life and then hearing these conversations and realizing that you were in an area with the potential to produce Great wine. Did you At a young age, know that your vocation would be taking over the estate and becoming a winemaker and a proprietor of a wine estate. Did you from an early age know that? Absolutely not. I enjoyed it and, I I was a very close spectator and participated in some of it. But, no, I I had no idea that this will become such a big part of my life. I When did you take over running the estate? I took over in two thousand and twelve. Okay. Personally. Yes. So the story there was that, after my mother envisioned this project, developed it, planned to the vineyards, developed the first, labels and, the work on the concept of and the product. And, and, unfortunately, then my mother fell sick, and, and she passed back in two thousand and six. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Before we sold a new act we actually sold a new wine. Back then, it was twenty. So it was, it was very young, and, I contemplated, very seriously of taking over the the winery myself I'm going ahead with the the project, directly. But I have to say with hints at wisely after a few calculations and a few after reasoning. I took a step back personally back then because I was twenty. As I was saying, our property is very remote. You got winters that are relatively long, and, I would have been alone in the place where my mother passed, doing something that is very hard because running a winery is a very, very, very tough job. And, with no confidence, so I'm glad I didn't do it back then because I actually wasn't ready. So we kept it. It was managed by, family, estate, and, I then took over, which did a good job with the vineyards, an okay job with the rest, not really what what I would have done. But in two thousand twelve, I then took over with an idea, which was very simple. My counselor was left. I want to make the best possible wines from these vineyards. And then from there, navigate, the business of it. But the idea was to get the best express the terroir and the vineyard. And, once that was out, consider, in the process, learn if it's worth it, as a business. So with that in mind, in twenty thirteen, I hired, lap Salinia winemaker. Were the vineyards established by then, Ambrojo? Yeah. So we part of them. Yes. We we had seven actors back then. So we had, if you look at a picture of our vineyards on top of the hills, there's a road running between them. Mountain side there, the east side had been all planted and realized, and these vineyards are incredible because we got all these dry ones that we built ourselves with all the rocks that we found in the soil of the vineyard. So So, carracing, that must have been so much work to terrace the vine. Yes. I didn't realize extremely well, but in two thousand sixteen, we expanded and we planted three more actors up on top of the hill. And, it took us the amount of time, and, and at first, it took us was incredible. It was in of what was done before me when I had to do it myself because the to plan three actors, we had two huge excavators in the vineyards for eighteen months, just working on the rocks, the terraces, preparing the soil. We found rocks the sizes of minivans, that we had to bring up special tools to break them up to the movement. So it's a very, very particular place. And, you get this tremendous effort as a man, as a human building a a drywall, which with huge rocks, an interesting feeling because you get the sense that you're building something that will let outlast you by a long, long time. So you imagine can kind of imagine for one of the years people finding this wall under some bushes and wondering who built them. Was the food that, you know, that's how the hope is done. And, it was nice to go through a little bit again and experience what was done before in in a new way. And now and by then, also we planted Limoractors in two thousand sixteen, and then in two thousand and nineteen, we expanded purchasing a property just below us on our same road that brings to a proper to us, but inside the Bulgaria DOC, so that we could experiment in producing wine both inside and outside the the Bulgaria DOC. And have an, good base at the bottom of the hill. So it's been, a great adventure, I have to say. Then I I signed that's frankly, I started to do this because I had to just because to set first sense of responsibility and duty. And then it became a passion as a as one can imagine, meaning it's Yes. I can imagine. Now let's go straight into talking about two of your flagship ones. The wines I tasted, which I liked very much, both the in dark and the sheep pio, quite extraordinary wines that really do reflect the terroir, the altitude of the soil. But also, let's begin with the grape varieties. Maybe the indecco is better place to start because you have the variety and unusual variety. Yes. The grapes, sir. Absolutely. So Indaco, first of all, was the the wine that was conceived by my mother when she settled the project. The first wines of the of the idea that she did. The main one was Indaco, and the idea was it to be a wine that really represented our Venus and our terroir, and, to be a a fine wine. So, a very tight selection of the finest grapes of each variety that was in the blend. And, the blend is composed by one third merlot, one third cabernet sauvignon and one third Malbec. Now the Malbec oil is, of course, the odd man out in this group, especially in Tuscany, and that is because, frankly, I'm not one hundred percent sure into the honesty why we planted Malbec. I knew we did it. I have some theories, but I never got around to asking my mother the direct question of why did we plant Malbec? But there are many reasons that make it make it interesting nonetheless. First of all, that it used to be part of a much bigger part, have a bigger role in Bordeaux before it was grafted and looked down to car after it suffers so much up there. And, secondly, the wine that we get is extremely interesting. Malbek takes a a a lot of energy in the vineyard because it's a lot of work to grow it properly in an environment, such as, the coast of Tuscany. So it's because, people now used to growing Malbec in drier climates, especially in Argentina, where he's really found his ground, and it's scenario that is the zyrtec with irrigation, so you don't get a lot of the challenge that you get in Italy. But also you get a very different expression, the moment we get up a set of shade between the altitude and the soil and the position is very, very elegant. There's this interesting mix of, width and finesse, which is, very fascinating. You get this, delicate nose, very floral aromas, and this, said that the width and the the juiciness that you expect from a mild backing. So it's in your mouth. So that has been something special that is quite unique and, I would cherish. And, with Indaco, everything that pays very well with the cabernetes and the merlot, the cabernet sauvignon and the merlot in the wine, then it's a one that is made by a very tight selection. We go through three rounds at harvest after fermentation and after six months of aging. And we just keep the best loss of each of these varieties and keep in mind that from our high altitude vineyards, We have four varieties. We make maybe twenty five, twenty six different lots, because we get very granular with picking. We treat all the vineyards the same every year. So we give all the vineyards a chance, and then we go and we select just going for the best changeables with not being afraid of changing every year and getting regular and making the small batch fermentations in order to really appreciate the and getting the hues of the various parts of the vineyard, you know, sometimes one terrace go see side, the mountain side, there's a slight difference in profile or the same vineyard we do. If you're picking, we do rounds of picking to get the ripeness just right. So it's all about being very granular and and driven, and this allows us to produce this wine, which is, very representative of our vineyards. And and you do the assemblage then tasting the different vats and bringing is going altogether. Why I remember what struck me was, the intensity, the concentration, but underlying it all. And also, the shipio was a real vibrancy, a vibrant acidity that gave the wine a certain backbone and Yes. Identity and structure. Would you see that say that's a feature of Saticelli? Yes. So, Saticelli, our features are driven by the terroir and the vineyard. My mission is to represent and express as best as possible that reward the vineyards that we have. And, luckily, for us, they have very strong character. So it's and one of the strong characteristics we have is this incredible acidity, which, is not due to us being particularly clever or able to do great stuff in the cellar. But we have this been at the site in which we get this special condition in in which the acidity. So usually, when harvest time comes, you're always trying you're a little bit between, in a pickle between acidity falling with right and ripeness growing. So you want your grapes to be ripe, but you want there to be some acidity to to keep some structure to move the wine some backbone. I said to Shirley, because, our theory is because of the carcharios soil and the clay and the rots. We get our acidity levels go down before harvest a bit, and then they plateau very high at almost white wine levels. And then they don't drop until after ripeness, basically. So we really get to go for perfect ripeness without having to worry about your c d d. This puts us in a position in which we can really focus on getting what we think is the best, aromas connected to the right of the grapes that we focus on the seed feels when we crunch through their teeth, the pulp, the skin, we focus on that, and it's about experiential experiences. There's not much lab work done. We do offer analysis, but it's all about tasting in the vineyard and trying to envision what that grape will turn into. And the acidity is a non issue in this process, which is an incredible luxury. I particularly liked, that balance of concentration and phonological ripeness of the fruit coming through, but also this freshness, this freshness that acidity is giving And it's been important for us, especially with the weather within warmer because you can actually get a little bit higher calling in your wines and, and you want the acidity and the talent structure to balance it. Otherwise, if you lose balance, it gets over. So Sildia has been a a huge help in these times. Now in Brojo, we're running out of time a little bit, but let's have a brief word on this beautiful cabernet franc, but also just one or two words on the name. Yes. Absolutely. So starting off with the wine, the idea is, cheaper is a hundred percent carbon in Frank, and it's a small selection, a small production of around ten thousand bottles per vintage when we make it. So I'm making a hundred percent carbon in Frank is extremely tricky because it's a variety that's quite fickle. And, if you don't get it right, I think the aromas go a little bit overboard, and it can the piercings come overburdened the wine because of this, the city that we were talking about, you can go for a rightness level that is, my opinion a little bit over what you usually found in Cabinary front because the conditions allow us to push in a direction. To mean it's a great expression or there's a crunchiness, great nose of spices and there's a lot of tobacco, and, this crunchiness and this liveness, given by the acidity, which to me is, very special. While I'm going to the name of the wine. I am, very passionate about history. I studied history at Oxford University, and, Cipio is the name of the Roman General, Cipio Afrecanos. Which was, publish ship yours was his actual name. And it was an incredible Roman general with a defeated animal in the second or third punic wars. And, to me, this was an incredible moment in history. If you have to imagine back then around two hundred and eighty BC, the Mediterranean was ruled by the Romans and by the Carthaginians, which were, the Phoenicians, which were based in Carta, which is modern day Tunisia. And, they were essentially two power starter fighting over Sicily. And, then, the Carthaginians sent an army into Italy through Spain with a Hannibal, which was a very famous and great general crossed over into Italy with an army with elephants, a twenty six thousand men in his army, with the Numidian cavalry, which was the one of the best covering of the time. So Hannibal was ravaging through Italy, beating the Roman lesson right with very counting techniques, It was a great military technician, and the GPio witnessed this growing up. And then as he was more mature, he became a a very valiant writer in general. And he was the one who devised the techniques to beat Hannibal and, definitions. And go to war with them and win the second and third clinic wars. And he famously spread salt over the land around Carta in order for it never to grow. It wasn't an epic conflict that lasted many years. We had armies crossing from Africa into Italy and, ship your mounted, an offensive going into Northern Africa from CCD with an army. So he was an incredible figure, also very charismatic, one of the first generals in Roman time that gathered a lot of public support and became very famous and lived, actually, a pretty long life. Fascinating, fascinating story. And I love that link with ancient history and the relevance to today as well. Were there battles along the aurelia as well in your area? Luckily not, because the main battles that were, fought in Italy were in, which is actually in Julia, which was famously one of the battles who was I think something around the fifteen thousand Romans died in one half hour. It was a massacre, and it was one of the historic toughest defeat of the Romans. And, luckily, what happened is that the the Romans tried to stop Hani Balani's army that we're going through Italy, by indulging them by making them comfortable where they were, so the army would rest. And the famously, they stopped in Capua for a long time. And, it is said that Romans sent them food and, wine so that the army would just relax and not could go on ravaging through Italy. So Yeah. Because it was curious. Hannibal was camped not far from Rome and Yes. Never never attacked Rome. Yeah. It was a circumstance in which he he could have, and that would have been, a pivotal moment in history, and it he actually didn't, and, that left an opening for for the Romans to group and to them. Actually, what Xi did was convince the Senate to send them to Africa to fight on their land so that they had to bring the army back because what happened with animals is he went through Italy, winning every battle. And sheep instead of attacking him in Italy, he had the the Roman senate sending to Africa with a actually, a very small and depleted army, which he replenished and trained. And then Shipio attacked, Cara and was getting closer, and they had to recall Hannibal back to Africa with his army. And then they faced in the famous battle of Zama in which Shipio ended up winning, but it was a very interesting tactical battles in which Both army were trying to encircle each other to then crush one another in the middle, and CPO actually was able to win the battle, thanks to partly to his political skills in recruiting some of the new median cavalry that I had with, Massanesa, which was a a very relevant figure in Northern Africa. And, thanks to that. He was able to beat Hany, but in that battle. And famously, Hanybala Shipio met many, many years afterwards in Syria. Where animal was at the court of a king, and sheep here was traveling. And, they talked about it, and, sheep here asked Annabel, who the, the greatest general were. And, Annabel said, Well, Alexander, the great and myself, he said. And I should ask him, what if you would have beat me at Zama, then I would have been the greatest. That was the animals applied. So very, very interesting story. And, actually, what what I was so fantastic with the Cipio is, his figure in Roman time will give at all. Although, not directly, but his life allowed for, later, emperors to exist because of, Agusto and Caesar both, similarities with both incredible military figures, very cunning great tactics, who then struck, a court in the heart of the people that got them all the power of the head and, made out of the Roman probe it was. Well, I'd like to think that when Hannibal met Chipio, they shared a glass of wine together. I know Yes. Absolutely. Were were very partial to the wines they found on the Italian Peninsula wherever they were. I think in Obruso and Pulia as well. Let's turn to another subject, umbruso. I would go on talking about history for ages. I'm fascinated by that story, but let's turn to your wines and gastronomy. Now Your wines are made from what we call international grape varieties, even though some have been in Italy for for some centuries now, but Bulgaria is mainly a we consider an area where international grape varieties are planted. But what about the cuisine of your area in relating to wines or as well. I know you travel, taking your wines around the world, selling your wines around the world, and dining in different cuisines, would you say there's some foods or cuisines or local dishes to bulgari to your area that are really well suited to your wines? The issue with talking about in the country, I think that the Tuscany has some some great dishes that that complement the wines very well. I also think that internationally in general, they play very well with, any structured courses. And because they're both wines with very high acidity, there's this, palate cleansing feeling and the crispiness, which goes really well with proteins and, meats. In Tuscany, there's, Taniata and, and a lot of wild boar, which is very present. And they would say From those woods, the forest all around you. Yes. We we are on the first, it's full of white board deer, and I think the wines play really well with that, but also with more, traveling around, I would say also with more modern and complex dishes. They do like to be paired with something with a little bit of structure because they're quite big wines. But for instance, Shipio, in itself, it's something that Samsung can enjoy also as a almost meditation wine because the acidity keeps them so fresh. They're a little bit also wound up in the bottle. I found them that they feel like a loaded spring a little bit. And when you open them, you get this great evolution of the bottle of wine within the next hours while drinking it from the glass. So the experience to me of, going through a bottle of wine and having it evolve as you go along with your meal is always a a fantastic adventure. Yeah. I think that's a fascinating and important point that wines, great wines will evolve in the glass. And sometimes it's better to let that happen rather than to say decant and try to make a wine in its ideal moment because as you say, it's changing almost minute by minute. And the problem I find is often the bottle's finished by just as it's getting really easy, it's getting That can be. It's a known issue, actually. Now, Ambrojo, final question, you described this five kilometer long, what was a track, a rough track, and is now a stratevianca an unpaved road. Can our listeners who are, as I say, located all around the world? Can they visit Cete Chile? Can they discover the estate and visit? And do you offer wine hospitality, tastings, and the like Yes. So we do we're not gonna be private, but we do offer tastings for our clients. And, I would glad be very glad to host, both you and your listeners if they get in touch. It's a small estate. So we have a few people myself, in our winemaker, and we have Natalia who follows sales, who helps us, and we do tastings. We do tastings, but it's the very intimate affair because we do tastings that are at our own place, which is actually the house where I live when I'm here, So it's particularly private. It's like welcoming friends into your home more than a business meeting, usually. But, yes, we do. Also, because for us, all the work we do is trying to convey a sense of place in a bottle and, So having it's a when people can come, it's a pleasure to share the actual place with them. Well, I think that's the finest and the most, exciting way to experience wine is to really enjoy it in place. And as you say, within that intimate family, setting in the estate where it's made. I certainly would like to travel up that strada bianca and find you and enjoy the settecieli, these magnificent views in all directions, looking down to the Mediterranean Sea, and also up to the mountains. And, Brojo, it's been a real pleasure meeting you here today, and I really wanna thank you for taking some time to be our guest. It's been a real pleasure. You, Martin. It's been a pleasure to have this conversation with you, and, hope to see you soon up on top of the hill. Yes. I'd I would love that. I will try to find a way to make that happen. Thank you. Bye bye. We hope today's episode of wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast, has transported you to somewhere special. Please remember to like share and subscribe wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time, Chinqin.