Ep. 815 Gianpaolo Paglia | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and Verona. Thank you, make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines. But also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines, and the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, I'm figuratively heading up the M5 from my home in Devon Southwest England to meet my guest, John Paulo, who's been involved in the world of wine for more than twenty five years and who now lives and works in beautiful Shropshire. John Paulo is originally from Tuscany's coastal Marima area. And for two decades, he developed and created a very successful Marima wine estate that produced the classic wines of the zone. He's no longer involved in that business, but is still working in line from his home in England. Welcome, John Pardon. Thank you for being my guest this morning. It's a gorgeous day here in Devon. I hope the sun is shining with you up in Shropshire. How are you today? I'm very well. Thank you, Mark. And, yes, the the well is not bad today. It's dry, which is already, you know, a good result in UK. So and, you know, early there was a bit of sun as well. Probably not enough to plant the vineyard, right, where I am. But, you know, there are vineyards around the Oh, good. Well, perhaps we'll talk of those vineyards just a little later. Let's turn first to your home area, Marima. Can you tell our listeners? I like them to get a picture of this beautiful part of of of Italy, where it is and what it has to offer that's quite different from other parts of Tuscany. Sure. Yeah. There there is a bit of, I think, you know, frustration for people from Marima because, obviously, pretty much everybody knows Tuscany. And, and they they all go to Tuscany, or they want to go to Tuscany. You usually fly to peace, go around the area, which is beautiful, of course, and then they go to Florence, and, maybe sometimes they go back to Cienas and Jimignano, So they they just cut off that part of Marima part of Tuscany called Marima, which is the this other most part of Tuscany, which actually encompasses Latio. So Marima is a, sort of, hundred miles, stretch of, of of coastal area and Tuscany, and, and it's it's very peculiar, very different, much more wild and domesticated than, in Land Tuscany. It's got a completely different history because of, it's it's geography because of, you know, where it is and, and, but it is full of, incredible, beautiful things to see as much more wild and natural than, the rolling hillside of Kianti Glassico. Of course, it's on the seaside. So it's it's it's a beautiful place to go, if you like, you know, if you like swimming or going to the beach or sun tanning, full of beautiful little villages on the coasts and also also inland on the on the hillside. I had a a kind of, you know, trouble history because of, malaria in the past, you know, until probably hundred and fifty to hundred years ago, and, you know, was full of marches. In a way, it reminds me a lot of, the Camag in Southern France very similar on under under a lot of point of views. Okay. So, a coastal area that is less visited. And you say it's bordering lazio, so visitors could equally fly to Rome and and drive up to Marima as easily as down from Pisa. Absolutely. And then in fact, it is it is a very touristic area, especially from people from Rome. It is considered like, you know, the good place to go from Roman people. They want to go in a in a, you know, in a nearby an hour and hour and a half from from from from home, but in a in a much beautiful setting and, you know, full of, as I say, beautiful things, beautiful wines, and food, and beautiful, coastal villages. So it's very popular. Is just that it's not so much known by by people, you know, foreigners, but it is very popular, initially. Yeah. And it it has a very long and, ancient history linked to wine. This was a center of etruscan civilization as well. Yeah. Absolutely. And, as you know, you know, wine was always grown. Venus were always grown in the area, and etruscan people who are famous to do, you know, and enjoy wines and then, you know, of course, also the Romans also, you know, had, in in the course of the of the history, when Italy was fermenting in the little different states for about two hundred years, there was a state, which was like an enclave of Spanish Crown in, in that part of area. So in the from fifteen fifty to seventeen twenty, something like that. That place was actually Spain. Spain, Spanish, you know, Spanish territory. So there is a lot of also in term of wine that, has been taken from, from that heritage, and they changed a lot of the architecture. There are beautiful Spanish architecture around in the in some places, especially in the place where I was born or Wittello Montegentario, but also, you know, it's it's funny to to see that one of the most important local varieties, and I I'm just getting straight into wine now here. It's called Alicante. So earlier names give you an idea of Spanish provenance, but Alejanto is nothing nothing else than Granache or Garnacha. So that is a hundred percent, you know, part of the Spanish heritage the the master broach or the country, because that's that's really something special in Tuscany. You might find it somewhere else, but that is really very, very much in the old vineyards everywhere in Marima, and is very adapted to mediterranean climate, as well know, it grows very well. And I think it forms a very beautiful complement to Sanjay, to make very, very, very, very unique wines, different from from Adapana Tuscany, but very, very specific, very, very thorough driven, and also, you know, using this heritage. And I think it's it's something that people have sought to explore in recent years, but, not as much as probably you should deserve. But that's really interesting. Of course, Sardinia during that time would have been under the Spanish as well, wouldn't it? Exactly. They also have, grenache there, you know, as you know? Yes. I can now. Yeah. Canal now. So it's all part of that, you know, sort of, you know, Spanish, you know, influence and and domination in the in the Mediterranean around those those years. Now interestingly, John Paulo, last night in anticipation of speaking with you today, I opened a bottle of wine of one of your wines, a beautiful wine Kappatosta. Two thousand six, drinking in beautifully, a really, really good condition. And I was I was, struck by the color. The color was still quite dark, and I'm wondering if it's that bit of alicante that's that's adding to the San Jose Moreno. Yeah. I mean, it's it's alicante that actually should have the opposite effect because very pale on variety. But what we have there is also another very important variety called and Chile Giolo is also, you know, kind of more obscure origin even though, you know, it is probably very likely one of the parents or an offspring of San Jose. And that that gives a very bright ruby intense color, and that's probably one other reason why that also such a way to say, you know, it's it's it's it isn't, known for dark color, but that depends a lot from the clones and the place where it is grown. So we you can have dark dark colored sun devices in in in in in in this part of Tuscany. Yeah, and then, you know, the right place is is is, you know, much more intense than than in land you know, than in Nikanti area, for example. But you can see, you know, also in the in many Sanjay, from Montalcino, you sometimes you find intensities of color that are found in, you know, fifty miles in London Necanti a classier area. Well, let's talk about the Marima version of San Giovanni. What does that have that differs from some of the other San Jose bio types? Well, you know, more more elino, it's the local name of, of the wine and the the the clones of, you know, of Central Mesa, they find any vineyards, you know, always as as in, you know, many cases, mixed provenance and, and and as I in my opinion, you know, the the the wine really there, is more, you know, intended as the blend, not just Sanjay Vaysa, but also, as I say, Chilajolo, and and on the counter, but also, you know, some other local varieties, you can find that. But, you know, the the the the point is, you know, it's not so much a difference in terms of, in terms of clonal diversity. It's more to do with, with the condition, with the climatic conditions, with much closer to the seaside. Although more or less, it's quite a pretty large area going from from from the sea side, from from sea level to five hundred meters above the sea level inland, stretching, you know, across three or four communes. But, you know, the conditions in in that side of Tuscany, you know, of course, it's warmer, much warmer than inland. It's much drier and it's much sunnier, and you're very close to the seaside. It's it's similar to Bulgaria on that, respect, but with much more variation in terms of altitudes and, and and soils. So what do you have here in this in the end, the result of very, very ripe, full bodied, you know, big wines that sometimes need to be tamed down to be to be kind of rained or, you know, down to to to to to make them more balanced. Otherwise, you know, you would easily have very iconic wines, you know, sometime unbalanced wines. But if you do it properly, you have beautiful, you know, beautiful wines that very, very, true to that. So they said, right. To me, the example, always made. And for some people, that I resonate probably and becomes be be more understandable. It's it's the difference between, an older one where you have hundred percent Sierra wines powerful, but but also, you know, much more, you know, vertical. And then you compare them to the southern part of the Ron in, Chateonov DuPont, for example. So to me, Moreno is the Chateonov DuPont of Tuscany, whereas the, you know, the the northern Ron is if you want from Montechino to in London in Tokyo. So this is like a difference. You know, I think it and it for the same pretty much for the same reasons, you know, because as you go towards the seaside, things change, and and you you probably need to do to incorporate into into these wines, blend of different varieties to find our money and balance. So To create that balance. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think it, you know, still there will still be wines for people that love that kind of ripeness, which is fine. I think they can, you know, sometimes you want a wine with different, you know, different styles and different and different characters depending on what your mood is, what you're eating, what to drink, you know, what you want to do. So, you know, there there is a space for those wines, and, and and I think, you know, if you if you want to become through to the there are you can make beautiful wines. Yeah. In increasing the, some very good white wines being made as well as rosato wines. I've had some very good maramor rosatos. Yeah. At Vermentino for sure is one of the you know, the varieties has been very successful in in in the coast of part of Tuscany. It gives a lot of saltiness, a nice body, a nice acidity. Simple, maybe, but, you know, very, very refreshing and crisp And, and again, you know, with with a lot of military random characters, I think there's a wines, are really, you know, wines that you want to drink, but especially when you're there, like, you know, when you go in a, you know, in a in a coastal area, you really enjoy just wines made in the place is because they have that those characteristics that marry them beautifully with the food. The saltiness, you know, the character. Yes. Well, let's let's talk about some of the foods of the Miramid, and we do have that mix of the coast. And as you say, the more rugged interior, you've got that in the cuisine as well. Absolutely. You know, it's a city. So, of course, you know, a lot of, you know, Fishermen, villages or seafood is is is is very important part of it. And, you know, you can imagine everything, you know, you can find beautiful, you know, fish like or ata or, you know, lobsters and, shrimps and, you know, octopus and all, you know, really the endless possibilities there, but also, also, you know, all this is in land site where where where there's one mate probably, which is the the the real, you know, flagship of Marima, which is cingale, wild boar. And, you know, and you can have, you know, a lot of combinations with pasta, fresh pasta like tortelli, tortelli marimani, they're usually much bigger than, you know, the the other kind of, tortelli, if four, four or five of them would be enough for to fill you up, and they usually come with a beautiful, like, chingale ragu. And and and and and you have, like, in perhaps everywhere in Italy, which is probably the most distinguished part of Italian cuisine. You have a lot of, simple places where you can find this really, you know, basics staples of, of Italian, cuisine, and you don't need to be in any sophisticated, restaurant or setting. You really enjoy stopping by the, you know, the Strattoria or restaurants on these little villages, and you'll always be sure to find this simple, but but really, really really speaking of the of the territory of dishes. And, of course, there are also, you know, beautiful and, and renowned Michena Star restaurants, very sophisticated restaurants, in a in a in, you know, these little villages on the on the hills and also, you know, on the seaside. We have, you know, been blessed by having the Pelican Hotel since nineteen sixties, which has seen, all the, you know, jetsets from Hollywood, and, you know, rock stars and still does. It's very, very private location, and and it's very simple as well. It's not, you know, it's not look serious in in, you know, in in in any, you know, you know, architectural or or, or, you know, you know, sophistication of, interior design, but it is classic and it's, it's it makes you feel at home, and then the food has always been fantastic there. So it there there are there is everything, you know. There are simple places you can go, enjoy with the twenty euros and have a very rewarding meal, and there are very high created to say, what you can find and satisfy yourself if you want. Well, I think I think that you've painted a very enticing picture of this small corner of Tuscany that is less well known, and I think it is somewhere that people should definitely consider visiting for all of those reasons. The food, the wine, but also that mix of inland and seaside, and, you know, it's it's a very appealing area. Also, the weather is the weather is often there. It's often glorious there. And, and, if you can, would recommend to go outside, you know, the the highest season, which is July and August. But if you can go in June, in September, October, but even now, it's it's even in January, sometimes when it is beautiful bright, sunny day, fantastic. You know, it just go there and you can't believe you are in in winter. Well, let's let's turn briefly then to your adopted home, England. You've you've been in England for how many years? Well, on and off, mean, I don't know if family's been here since two thousand and nine. I got three kids. My wife's English, and, I've been commuting until twenty fifteen. And then from twenty fifteen, I'm more, you know, I'm more stable here, and that, you know, my wife is from from the midland, so that's that's what we are. My wife is from the midlands as well. That's that's that's why I'm that's why I'm in England. Yeah. So over this long period, you, like me, have seen a huge evolution of food and local drinks, including the rise and rise of pretty good English and welsh wines, which are by no means no longer a joke. No. They're not. They're not. And, I've been, I've been also involved in many, blind tastings in the master wine course and with master wines and with people of very high qualifications. And, and I can I can tell you, listeners, that many cases, it's very difficult to pull them apart? From good quality champagne, you know, when you're doing blind tasting good quality, English sparkling wines, you know, they're head to head with good quality champagnes. They lack that you know, depth and, and complexity of the very top cuvee, of course. But that's also because, you know, there's no enough history. There's not enough reserve wines here. Just to mention one thing. But that I'm sure that will come as well, but, you know, on on the on the high quality you know, non vintage cuvee, champagne, UK, the best UK with sparkling wines have nothing to to, you know, to go, miss. Yeah. I I I agree with you. What what do you say is the best quality that English wines have best have. How would you characterize English wines to distinguish, you know, the real uniqueness? Yeah. I mean, in in in in, of course, the acidity is sometimes much more, you know, spiky and and and refreshing But also, you know, they have a no ultra fruit quality that sometimes, it's more difficult to find in, in Champagne's if you, you know, this is one of the things that that can distinguish them, but it's very difficult to, you know, to to to find, you know, the differences. But to me, this is probably, you know, the the the characteristics. Yeah. So I I would agree that. Just in the way that a a good English apple is in my opinion, one of the best apples you can eat anywhere. With that, with that blend of, you know, sharp fruity acidity, and then that's the, you know, the rightness, and, and that can happen now increasingly with English wines. So I can only get better. And it can only get better because, because, because, as I said, you know, people will need reserve wines there. They'll, you know, they're becoming more skilled to, to make wines, but also the vineyards are becoming more mature. People became more experienced in the Venus as well. So there's a bright future, I think. Also, you know, global warming is a fact, but, you know, apart from that is a bright future from the wine industry in in general. Yeah. So I think so too. And it's also, you know, you've you've been talking about how the wines of Marima pair so well and naturally with the foods of the region. And I'm finding increasingly as well that, you know, we want to drink the local wines when we're in England too, where I live, for example, we have some very, very good still white wines that pair beautifully with the lime bay crab and the fish. Absolutely. Don't discard bacos. Bacos is probably, you know, the the the the English white variety for making a steel wines and some people, especially in your in your in your in your in your corner, I think, have proven I've proven that can be a really interesting wine when it's done properly. So, yeah, there are there are quite a few, you know, quite a few things that English wines can can can talk about, I think. And you're actually living in, a very strong food region. Shractures known for for its local food, strong, good producers. And Yeah. It's very rural. It's a rural part of of of UK, like many other, you know, many parts in the in in Sriland, in the midlands as well. And so a lot of, you know, farming there. And, and as a result, a lot of good, good ingredients to make, to make very good food and good, you know, a good good Cisine, you know. Yes. It's, and beer, of course. You know, don't forget to be on the side. I'm not very, big fan of cider, but I like my beer. Yeah. Actually, we have some very good West Country Cyters where I am down here in Devon. Well, I should come and taste sometime. Yeah. Come down and we'll have a point or two of different ciders. So I know you're involved in different activities in wine, with VIVX and Semenet and Search. Do you miss not having your own wine estate? What do you miss most about? Not making your own wines. I mean, it's a beautiful it's a beautiful, job. I mean, it's a beautiful, thing to be able to go in the vineyards. It's a very complex if you think, you know, things to do, you know, growing your things and transforming into into wine, then, you know, selling them into the market. It can be, you know, it can be some time, so overwhelming because, you know, it takes many years to get established. But what I miss, the most probably is that that that, you know, being the vineyard. That's why I'm doing something with simulations and search because that allows me from time to time to be to be involved in, you know, inside the vineyards, which is probably, I think, overall, the the the the the thing that I miss the most. Yes. I can understand that. It's more than a job. It's really is a entirely all encompassing way of life, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, John Paulo, it's been great catching up with you again. You have such a knowledge of wine, and you speak so beautifully about your region. So I'm really glad we've been able to meet up again. I still have a couple of cases of your wines in my cellar, which I'm enjoying drinking, and, I will continue to enjoy drinking them, and thinking of even more vividly of Marima. Now that we've had this chat. So I wish you well with your with your, work in wine, and I look forward to meeting up maybe down here in Devon sometime sometime soon. I I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure it'll be we we will. And you very much for reaching out and, give me the chance to, you know, to to revive, an old friendship and also to talk about my my region, which is always, you know, a special place to me. Great. Thank you very much, and see you soon. Bye. Bye to all. Bye bye. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love, and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.