Ep. 1137 Indian Wine Push Towards Premiumization | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. Tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Italian wine podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner, is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Right. Good morning. From far, well, Dublin. And, good, good afternoon from India. Welcome to this, session on on the Indian wine market and in particular, premiumization and its role and and where it's going in the market. It's a very exciting market, especially over the last ten years. The there's been a rapid change, rapid growth, rapid consolidation in the Indian wine business, and wine, winemaking business. And, certainly in Europe where we are, I'm seeing more and more Indian wine wineries represented in portfolios. Rua Singh, who is going to be conducting this, this presentation, is, well versed in the Indian market. She's, very much a market expert. She's a wine professional, wine, the wine and spirits education trust diploma holder, and just a very, good commentator on on the markets, in India. A lot of information to get through. I think I from what I've seen on the presentation, it's very detailed, but also very, very useful. So I will hand over to Ruma immediately. Please send your questions to through the swap card forum. And we'll have a q and a after the presentation, with your, your questions. Ruma, over to you. Thank you for the introduction, Harshal. I'm Uma Singh, and I'm here today to talk to you about the Indian wine industry and where it is today. With, through this, presentation, thirty minute presentation, we'll take a quick look at the industry. It's timelines because, a lot of people are not very familiar with the Indian wine industry. We'll also look at the success stories, the top producers, and why choosing the path of making premium wines is what is going to be the game changer for the industry going forward. I'll just share my screen with you right now. So for the purpose of simplicity, I have not differentiated between premium wines and super premium wines in the market today. The super super premium wine is still a very, very small segment and a very niche market. And the winer has, I spoke with, agreed that the price that actually hits the sweet spot for the Indian consumer for premium wine is approximately twelve hundred rupees or about team euro. I shall road brush the category of premium and pre super premium together just for the purpose to understand the way the industry is functioning today. So we'll first take a, a look at the wine landscape today. I will introduce you to the top players in the industry and the premium products. And finally, let's look at the future trends, which I believe will impact the growth of premium wine consumption in India. So, India population one point three billion. That number can be fairly stunning but I would urge you to remember that India is a very vast country. It's made up of twenty nine individual and extremely diverse states and functions more, in fact, like a small continent. The states make many individual decisions and many of their own policies, including state taxes and duties, which include the consumption and distribution of alcoholic beverages, including wine. Interestingly, history, in fact, and research has shown that people in the Indian subcontinent drank wine during the ancient indus valley civilization, which Research puts at currently eight thousand years old, older in fact than Egypt and Mesopotamia. But, well, that was a long time ago and history has intervened. And right now the modern wine culture has been slow to gain traction. There are estimated, and this is an estimate because there are no concrete and verified figures, but this figure of ten million wine drinkers I have got from, speaking in-depth to all the top wine, companies and based on their sales. So ten million is what the wine drinkers are, and that is a point eight percent of the total population, not a large number. However, the industry, and consumption basically has been showing a steady growth of fifteen percent year on year until the pandemic hit in two thousand nineteen. So in this, map of India that you see in front of you, I have highlighted the two main states for production and consumption of wine. They are Marastra, which is, on the West Coast and Karnautica, just below that. And I have also mentioned the top locations for, production of wine. In case of Marastra, it is Nasik. And, in in Bangalore, it in sorry. Encologize is Bangalore and the Humpy Hills. I've also mentioned the soil altitude and rainfall, which we both go into in great depth, but it's there for you to see. So what are the reasons for the dominance of these two states? Various including the fact that there are various, degrees of strictness in alcohol distribution and production around India, including all the states. While some states, specifically, these two and a few others have fairly liberal approaches to the distribution of alcoholic beverages, including wine, Others perhaps do not, in fact, some have complete prohibition, which makes it a fairly challenging market to navigate. Also, the two capitals, in, the two states, Mumbai, and Bangalore, mature wine markets with discerning consumers. The location of both the cities also makes distribution easy within their states, and they are well located in terms of proximity to establish wine regions within their states. But, of course, there are challenges. The main one being Viticulture. Point number one says tropical Viticulture, and I honestly wish I could put that in capital letters because that is a huge impact on, everything to do with wine production and, its pricing. For one, the risk of disease is extremely high, due due to the Northeast monsoons which come in November after the Southwest monsoon, which are the main monsoons. And the November monsoons come in the thick of the growing season, as you know, India's harvest period is between February and March. So there is no dormancy period for vines going to the climate, and one growth cycle starts fairly soon, after the other. This necessitates two prunings annually and, the associated higher cultivation costs are large. Vine Life is also much shorter than in most other countries, twenty years, twenty five. If you're very lucky, And, another point which I, heard from a winemaker in one of the top wineries when I was speaking with him, the average price they pay of grapes when they buy in grapes is seventy to eighty euro cents per kilo per kilogram, and that is very high. As you know, there are, volume markets even within Europe where You know, you can get perhaps even a bottle of wine for the same price as a kilogram of grapes in India. Nonetheless, another interesting fact, which I must share before moving to the next slide. And that is that three quarters of the wine consumed in India is still Indian. However, that is not mostly premium wines. And just, one quarter of it is important. So let's have a very quick look at the timelines of the Indian industry because it'll help you understand just how young it actually is and the last two decades have been very significant. The industry actually set up in the late eighties and nineties, and during that time, there was mainly fortified and sweet wines. Which flooded the market fairly cheap. And by the two thousands, the bigger players started establishing themselves. However, came the economic downturn in two thousand eight and that affected the industry, negatively. But soon after that, new winery started operations, and several states started introducing wine policies, wine friendly policies, I should say, and primary among those was Marastra and later Karnataka. So this led already to a premiumization push within the industry with increased focus on premium wines, a lot of winemakers and birds came in from abroad to advise, and the number of grapes and the varieties that were grown moved beyond, shiraz and, it just quickly go to that. Oh, beyond shiraz, Cabernet, etcetera, to, to other grapes such as neonate, tempranillo, riesling, etcetera. And of course, going ahead, we will look at the rapid growth in consumer spend and the growing influence of the middle class and the associated increase in food and beverage spend in the near future, which will impact the premium wine industry. So let's have a look at the number of key drivers currently contributing to Indian wine premiumization. The first was actually something that started last year where the prime minister Narendra modi, conceptualize the apart concept or self reliant India. And that spawned a whole lot of catchphrases and terms such as vocal for local and make in India. Which went viral. What essentially it means is that there was a new renewed pride in quality Indian made in India products. And you can see how this would impact, premium Indian one. Secondly, Indians were traveling at a great pace before the pandemic struck. And from all accounts that is picking up again, very, very quickly. And this has resulted in greater exposure to wines from different countries, different styles, and of course, a greater awareness of quality and wine. Along came along with this came the acceleration in domestic tourism, which was centered around niche and boutique experiences such as visits to wineries, and different forms of wine tourism, tasting, etcetera. Thirdly, there was an increased awareness of alcoholic beverage trends around the world, and, premium Indian products in this, category such as Indian, single malt whiskeys, gin, craft beer, meats, single estate coffees, and teas, etcetera started coming, front of focus and gaining visibility, also winning awards, which again has acted as a spur to improve the quality of buying overall. Finally, as I mentioned earlier, the growing middle class with its, disposable income is looking for quality experiences and products, and we'll come to this a little more going ahead. So now let me introduce you to the top wine producers, and let's touch upon their premium products and how they have chosen to premiumize their portfolios. For the purpose of this presentation, I have picked the top three wineries in India, and a one winery, Christmas States, which is a premium only boutique producer just to give an, overview of the situation as it is today and get some insights into how they function. Well, first and by a very large margin is Sula Vineyards with its sun logo. As you can see on extreme left, it is India's largest by a large margin. And, started in nineteen ninety nine by Rajiv Saman, a Stanford graduate who came back from Silicon Valley and decided to start up his vineyards around the region of Nashik in Ma Russia, which, in fact, it can be credited for starting this whole concept of minorities which grew very rapidly around that same region around Sula and made Nasik into India's wine capital if you will. Second is Grover Zampa, India's second largest, started by the Growver family in nineteen eighty eight, and that makes it the longest running Indian winery today. It has expanded over a period of time through mergers and acquisitions starting from two thousand and twelve and gaining, rapidly under the chairmanship of Singapore based investor and wine lover, Ravi Vishwanathan, now the chairman, and they have bought up quite a few of the Indian wine companies, and they have very ambitious plans on the annual Again, they are located like Sula in Karanataka and Marastya. Fritelli is number three. Started relatively, late in two thousand seven, which makes it just about fourteen years old. And, of its seven founders brothers, three of Italian, including the winemaker Piero Massey, who is, a very influential when it comes to the direction taken, by the wines in Fatel. Again, location, Narashita, and Panataka. Finally, as I mentioned, the premium only boutique producer, Krishna States, was established in two thousand and eight. Very interesting location, just a short distance from a UNESCO World Heritage Center of Hampi, which is a few centuries old. And in a place where actually there are no other wineries, except Christmas. So that was in Hampi Hills in Karnataka. Little bit into the figures, which will give you a little deeper understanding as to where they are today. Sula, as you can see in two thousand nineteen, which was the last year, which was last normal year, I should say before the pandemic. It produced twelve point one million bottles of which one quarter were premium. And Sula actually produces sixty percent of all Indian wine today. Of the thirty eight wines in its portfolio. It has fifteen premium in the value of eight fifty rupees or ten euro and more. Grova Zampa, in two thousand nineteen, had a production of three point three million bottles. And in their portfolio, they have forty wines of which twenty five are premium, nine to ten euros and above. For Fratelli, the projected annual production for twenty twenty one is three point two million bottles. And in their portfolio, they have thirty eight wines of which ten are premium, twelve euros, and more. Finally, Christmas. They have a fairly small production. As I mentioned, two thousand nineteen, under fifty thousand bottles produced overall, and in their portfolio, five wides all of them premium. Christmasma is widely regarded as one of the top producers in India today in terms of production of quality premium wines. A little bit further into what they are producing and also a look at each producer's premium products. For Sula, it's the Rasa range, and Rasa actually consists of three wines, the Cabernese Sabigno, which is the most expensive at twenty two euros. Also a Zinfandel and a Sira. Sira is actually a larger production. And I'm told Zinfandel is doing very well and appealing to the Indian palette. They had thirty thousand bottles sold in two thousand nineteen of just the cabinet souvenir, and they've been showing a steady forty five percent growth in the period, five year period ending two thousand nineteen. What is very interesting, is the delinking of the Sula logo for their new Rasa, promotion. And this has happened just a few weeks ago. If you look on the left, There is the old bottle of Rasa, and you can see the sun, dogo, and Sula mentioned quite clearly. On the right is the new Rasa bottle, the Cabernet sauvignor to be specific. Very different look, very clean, classic linear, no mention of Sula, or any appearance of its logo. This, they told me, is an effort to delink their premium most products from the rest of the portfolio and, maybe disassociate a little bit from the, entry level and mid priced wines in their portfolio and create a niche for itself. Also interesting is the fact that they have recently joined the international wineries of climate action just a few weeks ago. This, as, some of you might know, is a project by Miguel Torres and the Jackson Valley wines. So then we have Groba Zampa. Their flagship premium wine is la reserve, and the original la reserve, which is a fairly large portfolio now, it consists is the Cabernet Shiraz. In fact, the la reserve Cabernet Shiraz is widely regarded as India's first icon wine and mentioned by Steven Spire and Decantan two thousand five as the best new world wine that year. Today, Lara Azerve had the brand has expanded and there is a block, which is a, you know, a fume block, a shiraz, greenash, and a brute. They have also, as you can see on the left, undergone, some changes in branding. And, their focus remains premium. They have managed to make lares of their premium brand. They've in fact branded a lot of their hospitality and, tourism projects with the La Reserve brand. And, with the push that they made in the years before the pandemic, they've managed to increase the sales of this La Reserve entire portfolio, which is predominantly the Cavanese shiraz. By a hundred and thirty percent. Italian wine podcast brought to you by mama jumbo shrimp. The winemaking consultant is Michelle Ronald, and they're in the process. It's stingly again, of launching a new single vineyard Sierra, which they've named Cygnet, and was earlier called in Cygnia. This, when it is launched, will be India's most expensive wine bottle. It will cost about eight thousand rupees or just over ninety euros for a magnum. Prova Zampa places a strong emphasis on sustainability and technology driven by its chairman, Ravi Bishwanathan, as well as, emphasis on exports, and they have been placed in the past a top London and Paris restaurants. They also have the largest number of awards to their name hundred and eighty, including decanter, decanter, Asia, and so on. As far as settei is concerned, their flagship wine sorry. Fritelli is concerned, their flagship wine is called settei. Sette is the seven named after the seven founders. As you can see in the photographs, there are four of the seven founders there. And, sette is produced only in good vintages. In the last vintage that was produced, which was two thousand seventeen. There were sixty thousand bottles only produced. And, I'm told that they pretty much sold out. The next vintage in the market will be twenty twenty. And to date, only seven vintages have been released. Growth has been fairly steady at fifteen percent. And if you see the Spectte bottle, again, on the left, fairly minimalistic and, classic in its look. And it is marketed through a series of vertical tastings for its consumers which place emphasis on structure and ageability of the wine. This is a sangiovese dominated wine. Additional information, which is interesting, is, Fritelli's, had some premium collaborations in the past with international personalities such as Steven Sparia for the Marcy Sporia or MS range. And with Jansha's Bosay for the Janoon range, a very small niche, production. And that was already at, forty six euros a bottle. Again, a point of interest is that, Fritteri has not joined the NASHIP Party. Actually, they are based in a close, which is a distance away from the hub of NASHIP. And it was chosen specifically for its nutrient or soils, which they considered suited for cultivating Sanjuveza, which is their flagship grape. And, Pieromasi is, tuscan, tuscany vection, a winemaker. Today, they have twelve different grape varieties, in akhluch, including two Sanjay Bazi Clones developed by Massey. And they get their clothes from the Guillaume nursery in France. Finally, Christmas States, they have their cabernet sauvignon as their flagship brand. The price is twenty three euros. And as I mentioned earlier, the production is under fifty thousand, a year bottles in total, of which Cabernet Sabignor is a good fifty to sixty percent depending on vintage. There are also three hundred magnum made. There aren't too many magnums in the Indian market. Two thousand seventeen is the last vintage. Again, they only produce in good vintages. Defined Indian identity, as you can see from the bottle on the left, the first Indian company to have a second wine in, a la Bordeaux, and also to emphasize the importance of vintage and what it brings to the table. Christmas is situated in a very, low rainfall zoom, just four hundred millimeters, and this brings with it drought risks. And has affected production in the past. Though irrigation is possible. It also has implications, in terms of cost. The Chigurapati is, for whom this is a passion project rather than their main business, which is pharmaceuticals, put in a lot of time and effort, especially much, who runs the winery today. They did briefly, exports to New York very successfully. I'm told. But unfortunately, they had to stop that because they were not able to service, the export market because of demands in the domestic market. In fact, even in the domestic market, they're sold just in three very mature markets, and that's what they want to concentrate on. Finally, Let's have a look at future trends, which definitely should have a correlation on how premium wine will grow in India. The first is wine tourism and hospitality, rapidly growing businesses in India, And this has been leveraged by the country's top one producers to create awareness for their brands, specifically their premium brands, which otherwise their consumers may not be able to, experience, and also to draw new drinkers in. And, specifically, this is being done very successfully by Sula. They have two properties in in their NASIC facility, and they see four hundred thousand visitors a year. It's a large number for visits, tastings, and states because they have seventy suites between the two properties. And, what they've informed me is that after the, since the lockdown was lifted, a little while ago in Marastra, their occupancy has soared to close to ninety five percent. Narsik, as I mentioned earlier, is also very, very well located, and that does help. For Growver Zampa, they had started before the pandemic struck on developing their Bangalore winery and hospitality, which included the law reserve. As you know, they they emphasize law reserve for their premium hospital experiences, tasting room, winery visits, restaurant, etcetera. But they have very ambitious plans which are currently, underway in NAShek, for a mega hospitality project worth about ten million euros. And this, they tell me, will be run by a top hotel chain, Indian hotel chain, and will consist of hundred and ten shannies and fifth year to start tasting room the works. As you can see, the photographs on the right, the top two are of Sula's source and the, rooms. And the bottom two are of the new NASHic project for Brova Zampa artists impression of what the project will look like. When we come to Frite, they have a relatively small hospitality center in Akludge. As I said, it was a little off the beaten track, but connectivity has improved, I'm told. And after seeing the demand for visiting and winery experiences, they are planning to build an experience center and several other hospitality projects in the near future. Finally, as far as Christmas states is concerned, they also had plans for a state of the art tasting room at their winery. They do winery tours. The advantage they have is that they are very, very well located to the municipal world heritage center and Humpy. It's a short car ride away, and it also attracts a lot of visitors. So you can make a short trip down to the winery from there. Finally, let's have a look at the macro indicators and FNB trends, which would indicate that the premium wine consumption in India is bound to accelerate in the future. So this slide, which you can see, there's a lot of matter. I have divided into three categories. The first is, focused on the middle class, the burgeoning rowing middle class, The second talks about research which has been done on F and B trends. And finally, the third talks about the demographics, which will drive a premium consumption. When it comes to the middle class, the sources for my research have been Asian studies, organization, McKinsey, and the IWSR. And they say that India could The third largest number of high income households by twenty thirteen after China and the US despite COVID nineteen challenges. This would indicate that hundred and forty million Indian households would move into the middle class with its accompanying disposable income, and another twenty million will move into the high income category. And corresponding spends on categories like food, beverage, etcetera are forecasted to increase significantly. So you can see how that would pay back premium wine consumption. Also, the I WSR told me that while, the pandemic, hit the Indian wine industry, quite badly. And overall consumption was down. Sorry. Was down. However, wine consumption per se is forecasted to grow by seventeen percent in the next three years up to twenty twenty five. Secondly, we come to the FNB trends. This, these, this research has been taken from the Indian Wine Insider, which was, the survey done in two thousand seventeen by Sonal Holland, NW. And among the, findings were a few very interesting things. Wine is increasingly perceived as healthier and more sophisticated a beverage. In twenty seventeen, super premium wine was already a fast growing category, and wine is considered a highly aspirational drink, following high visibility in pop culture, you know, Netflix and TV and movies and such. And significantly increasingly popular among younger consumers of the age twenty five to thirty four. And this, I would say, is quite a contrast to what is happening in the west. So this younger demographic is going to drive growth in India. It is predicted. And, they are also, along with women, the younger consumers are prepared to spend more on one. Which is again, interesting and relates to the premiumization trend. Finally, again, we come back to the demographic of young people. Today's millennials and generation z in India will be the dominant demographic by twenty thirties as the World Economic Forum Report. Specifically, they will be seventy seven percent of the Indian population. Growth drivers influencers more willing to spend compared to their predecessors, highly informed and discerning about consumption due to greater travel and, you know, looking for a niche and special experiences. They will also, in twenty thirty spend, fifty percent more on consumption experiences versus today, they will be more experimentative, less hampered by cultural norms, and they will be forty percent more digitally influenced in their purchases, which in two thousand nineteen was just twenty percent. So digital buying and digital influence will shoot up. As you know, India, we do not permit public advertising of alcoholic beverages, but they have been, working very hard on social media and Sula today has close to a hundred thousand Instagram followers. They tell me they are the fifteenth most followed winery worldwide after the champagne houses and that they aim to be at in the top ten by the end of the year. So just to recap briefly, we have the growing middle class, increased spends, increase in wine, consumption overall, winding regarded as healthier, more sophisticated, aspirational, something which the younger people would like very much to experience and, widen the experience of. And also this younger demographic will be the dominant demographic in India in a very, very short period of time. So that is what I have for you. Thank you very much. And, of course, if you have any further questions, please feel free to get in touch. I will now hand it back to, Harshal who will, moderate the Q and A. Excellent. Thank you, the rumor. It's really, really interesting. And, genuinely interesting. I I lived in India from two thousand and seven, two thousand and twelve at the time of the creation of the great processing board, and there was this real interest in in promoting the industry at the time, and it's it's it's wonderful to see how how far the industry has come in since two thousand and twelve when I left in the last ten years. You know, the the the the the new play the new players, the guys like Fatelli and Christmas, and then the existing players, Sula, and and Grover, Grover Zampa, I think they're they're doing a great job. And even in a small country like Ireland, where I'm based, I'm seeing Indian wines on on on wine lists and portfolios of import. So it's it's it's it's great. I, the the couple of things I wanted to to ask you, Ruma, a couple of questions that have come in and and just some thoughts that I've had, and maybe you can then you can quite answer. Just going back to the initially, when you were talking about the the when Marastra and Canada, the two the two states, sorry. I have a sick dog here. Well, Marastra and conan, the two states, when they came up with these wine policies in the in the mid two thousands, what what what was what were the policies about? Lower taxation for one. As you know, the Indian, tax structure is challenging to say the least. And, yes, it just made a whole whole approach to wine much more easier and more accessible without going into all the details. For instance, in Karnataka where the license for serving liquor and the entree is very, very high. Gift by it, it's it's ridiculously highly priced. But if you were to get one only for wine, you would have to pay a fraction of that. So there were similar things which were put into practice, and that has definitely helped grow the by in states. I feel. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I I think and I think I've I've seen it in in the Western world as well that, you know, wine licenses, wine only licenses to promote wine as a drink. Are cheaper, more accessible, less cumbersome to get than, let's say, a full license or a experience license or whatever you wanna call it. And that's that's what that leads into another point. It's based on those policies today, twenty years later. Is there, you know, is is there some is there some sort of push to to promote wine and separate it from other alcohol or is wine still lumped into that alcohol category? I'm afraid you're right. As far as the powers that we are concerned, we that is still, a challenge. That is still something which, I think they're working with. We have several producers associations and they're fighting the good fight. But, however, you know, it's, I I don't see the attitude of the government changing very soon or it will change very gradually. There are always moments of great hope. For instance, the, the Delhi government is now looking at, you know, changing the policy of his great excitement in the hope that things will become, better. But, you know, it's just sort of living on a day to day basis and honestly, one cannot predict when it comes to government policies, which way that'll go. So it's gonna take a while, Harshan. It's not going to happen overnight, but what is encouraging is the fact that despite all the negative some of which are touched upon in the presentation. There is still so much of growth. There's so much of interest, and I see that on the ground every day. I mean, the people who just keep wanting to know more about wine, And I think as that grows as far as, the country is concerned, there will be growth. How fast it happens? Of course, nowadays, on many circumstances. As COVID has taught us, there's no absolutes that we can depend on. Well, that's so that is that's that's a very good point that, you know, there is it's gonna be small growth. And and I suppose the question then is, that's the question that was asked in the in the Q and A by somebody, you know, that is premiumization, the avenue to increase consumption, or should winery someone like maybe it's someone like Crispah, for example, should they be focusing more on getting their wine accessible to people based on price, I mean, you know, You think with all your friends and you see how, again, the simplest or the rudest example is look at Muoton North Shield and look at Muoton Caday, you know, it's a one is what the the cheaper products uses gateway to premium to the premium. Is it something that they'll consider, you know? I yeah. I hear what you're saying. However, I would also remind you that Bordeaux has a sea of wine which nobody ever knows of and nobody ever drinks. And that, unfortunately, is the way that the Indian wine industry started, and I think they learned the lesson from that. They still have those lower end wines in their portfolio. But I think to gain acceptance and to gain attraction in the domestic and the international industry and to gain that whole, you know, respect of people that they are making good wine. They need to also focus on their premium wines and deliver consistency and quality there. And of course, I do agree with you mid price wines is the way to go. But unfortunately, as you know, there are many many factors which come in the way of that. Including our climate and many other many other factors. Yeah. I mean, if anything, as you were saying, I think what was really cool was to see the, you know, the the the wine tourism initiatives that are that are about to take place or or that exist with Sula and the source. What Grover looking at doing with their thing in in in in Canada. And maybe that's the way. Maybe that's a nice avenue to to up upsell, you know, to get them into the into the lounge or into the the wine we visit and then say, look, here's what we have, and here's the you know, here's the next step up if you want to, if you want to, if you wanna go back to your cities and talk about it and then maybe think about it. Yeah. In fact, sorry. Sula has gone that route. And in fact, they see their highest sales come out of their, winters and projects. Where and they say also, yeah, the salados, and they say the maximum number of wine drinkers today, we've had their first sip of wine are in the sula saladore. Yeah. It's really it's really cool. Very, very fast. It's fascinating. Okay. We have to we have to wrap up. Thank you, Ruman. That was really interesting. I I thought, I mean, the thing that set out for me was that seventy five percent of wine for Student in India is domestic wine. You know, when I lived there, I I wouldn't have thought that was the case. Most of it was drawn to hotels and, for restaurants. But it's so it's great to see that there is there is a movement towards, you know, that local industry and then people are Don't forget that domestic wine is not the wine that you would have drunk in any case, has shown. A lot of it isn't. What we are looking at is the premium part of it, which now if you come back and have a drink, I think you will be much better impressed than you would in the past. I'll book I'll book the flights very soon as soon as we can. Thanks, Ruba. Thank you very much. And thank you to, to all of you for attending. It's been, it's been great. I think that the rest of the, the next few days are going to be really fascinating with what's what's being discussed and what's being, debated and questioned and presented. So enjoy the rest of the sessions. Thank you very much, and have a great rest of your day. Thank you. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.