Ep. 1181 MW Vs. MS Deconstructing Myths | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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Italian wine podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm Central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Okay. Good afternoon to the audience. You are taking part to an educational session on the wine to wine business forum, which is called the master wine versus master familiar. They constructed the means. And, Peter Russo, Waafu Gata in Sicily and such to student at the master of wine program. And I'm very pleased to guide this conversation today with two incredible guests. To women that own the most prestigious and ambitious credential in the wine business, They both come from Germany. We have Karomare, Master Wine, and their Garvis Shredder, Massasun Media app. I will first, start by introducing my guests, and honestly, I am pretty impressed by their TV. So the first guest is, Karomare. She is the first female German master wine. She became the master wine in two thousand and eleven. Caro is a wine writer and the Cater. She has seminar and testing as speaker for important one association. She is involved in the education program of the master one institute and not least she consults for the biggest German supermarket chain. So, hi, Carol. And thank you for being here. Hi, Peter. Oh, I'm actually happy to be here and happy to see you once again. I haven't seen you for such a long time one and a half years at least. So, my pleasure. Wonderful to be here. Great. And second guest is Ergalouis Shredder, the first female German master from Maria since two thousand and nineteen. Area has a wide professional experience across different segment of the wine industry. As a Samalia and director of start at restaurants. She's involved in the education and coaching for one professional. She also a wine judge and she's involved in the trade of fine wine. So hello, Eilga, and thank you for joining us today in this, nice, discussion. Hello, Kietro. Nice to be here. Thank you for having me in the higher Cabo as well again. And, yeah, I'm really looking forward for a nice and interesting discussion. So before to start, I want to set the stage for the discussion. This session will deepen inside the world as you have already understood. Of master wine and master summary. And that's the final goal to, explain the main differences among these titles. We'll also try to deepen inside the possibilities for the audience to enter this program. And, another important thing to to, check for the challenges and reward offer to those who want to submit the the most difficult credential of the one industry. So I wanted to start with Carol. So let's begin this intriguing discussion, Carol. So can you please tell us something about the master of wine certification say it's history and background and why for you it is considered together with the most respected, the credential in the wine industry. Let me just start with, explaining our audience that it's well, I'm already a master of wine, but Pietel who is moderating this session is actually hopefully going to be a master of wine next year, which he actually has all the ambition and has the the competence So, he knows what this is about. It's actually if you are, let's say, if you are, working as a winemaker in Italy, or if you want to work with wine in Italy or in Germany or in Australia, you rather study how to make a wine or how to be a viticulturist. But, this program, the master of wine title started in England in nineteen fifty three, and this in these days was not necessarily the land of wine growing in wine making, but it was the the land of wine buying. That's why they had to educate their buyers and the the people selling wine rather than the winemakers, and they developed a program, a very rigorous one which is, which gives you the background knowledge, everything, which is in the vineyard, in the cellar, and on selling wine, and the result actually is being able to judge a wine by its quality, by its origin, by its grape variety, But the main thing is getting the quality right, setting the quality, setting a price for that quality, and this is actually what it is about. We learn, as, Peter knows, we learn, in theory, video culture, we know, about analogy. We know about other things for in business, but, the main part of, our program is also the tasting, and there are three tasting exams. If you want to ever pass, It's a white wine paper, twelve white wines pint, twelve red wines pint, and the third, exam is it's a kind of a mixture of wines can be sparkling. Can we also see? Can we also fortify it or white and red? And let me just tell you, Peter has already passed it. And, then you write a research paper at the end or a tiny dissertation on, self chosen topic. And hopefully, you will be a master point after three to four to five years. Yeah. The dissertation that today is the research paper. So it's quite, long journey. I can, I can tell you? And, Elga, So, I don't know. First of all, Carol, sorry. Why do you think that, this can be the this is the most, important credential. Why this, ambition and this, for for these two letters. The Institute of Masters of wine in London, it's a non profit private organization. So, the Institute can set its own levels, of competence, what they expect from their members. And I think that we have the highest levels of competence, and it's expected to past these three exams, which are really rigorous and difficult. And, there is nothing comparable. There's nothing comparable in in the broadness and the, in the width of knowledge. And who passes this and there are only four twenty masses of wine in the world who passes this really has proved that he, she understands wine, and understands wine from the crepe to to the bottle. And, this makes it probably the most prestigious title in the world. Right. Very interesting. But never ask me whether I can make wine. I probably can put the must deferment, but I assume that you don't want to drink what I would produce, Peter. I can tell you it's easier to make wine than become an NW. So, Elga, I perceived, well, since, quite a lot, since I'm in the, I'm in the program. I perceived a lot of misunderstanding inside the wine industry. Regarding, the MW and the master of some master of some media title. So can you explain the most important peculiarities of the master of master of some media title? And if you can tell us also the main differences compared to the master of wine certification. Yeah. Certainly. So, so the master summary title and the the MW, I think it's, really concerning the knowledge. It's really on the same high level because we both aim for the highest education, the highest level, the highest proficiency. But our approach is a little bit different. So, the master summary, was established in nineteen sixty nine also in London because at this time, of course, it was, yeah, and it still is one of these countries where many wines were imported and but also where the hospitality had a really high high standard and and still has. So, the the title of the MS program, it was basically established. To encourage the highest quality for the beverage service in hospitality. So this is our main goal. And, yeah, certainly, we also do have to learn about, with the calls about, winemaking, about different graves, the geology, climate as well, and all those factors that are, yeah, later on reflected in the wine itself. But it also is spread in a very, very, vast field as well. So it's basically everything about all the beverages apart from milk because milk is more or less like a nourishment. Yeah. But of course, we need to know, starting from the operative of, over beer, over stock, over wine, sparkling wine, to tea, to cigars. So this is our field. And then, of course, it is all set in the environment of hospitality. So, I think one of the main issues is maybe, so so to become a master similarly, you need to follow a four step program. It starts with the introductory, summary, which is like a really like the basic introductory where you, get the basic knowledge of the wine countries go off about the regions, about the grades, etcetera, and then it's followed by a theory exam. Then you have the certified summary, which is one step further. There you already have included a practical exam, which includes, for instance, the task, like, to find them in the in the restaurant, black decanting or sparkling wine service, something like this. And, then you have, the next step, which is a huge step forward already. Is the advanced summary. So where you already have the free parts that you will later have in the master's familiar exams as well. So this will be a theory part where you have all. So it starts already here with, that you need to know like the average yield or the lowest yield allowed in a in a different country. So it's about a wide loss as well. You go deeper into the topics with the the single vineyard sites, etcetera, the the producers. And, yeah, this is the one path to practical is really like the scenarios, from all over, from the restaurant business or from the beverage business which includes calculations, servers as well of, sparkling wines, decanting, set up educational purposes, or, yeah, things like this. You need to pass this with sixty percent. And then the last step is then the MS where you really have to pass. So it still goes deeper into the knowledge. And you need to pass it with seventy five percent, which is quite tough. So, yeah, but basically I would say it's more, the approach is more coming from the hospitality, point of view. Okay. I I can see some relief in your face. After all this, this stuff to prepare. So congratulations to you both. Good. Thank you. And, from what I understood, so it's, something complimentary. Right? Because it's hospitality. And, when industry, persists, or, maybe somebody who have become an NW or, can decide to continue studying and, approaching the other two letters. Small. I think there are two person today that on the double, both titles in the world. Well, I think I think, almost ten people who are, well, double is not to give, to tell the truth, I would never ever be able to make the MS because the practical exam is hegel just said, you know, the service, I'm not good in food and wine pairing. Actually, I don't care very much. And I'm not very good in in surfing and opening champagne. You can be sure that it's always bottling out. So, I would rather say that, Helgar can do the NW and can add BMW the mediums. Okay. So, Carol, we charge the credit recky side to the to become an NW. And also if you want to tell us, your personal experience and path for, when you have achieved the this, this title. The prerequisites are pretty easy. First, you have to be part of the wine community or part of the wine trade, wine trade or wine business in a very proud sense. You have to work in the wine business for three years. So you have to have a professional background. And we expect you actually, to bring in, a title like the WSET diploma, for example, or like an MS like, Heda is or an academical type in on a master level like master immunology, master in video culture. And with these prerequisites, you already know about wine because the the NW program does not tell you the basics. They don't tell you which grape varieties are grown were in which parts of the world, you have to know this. You have to know how they are made. You have to know how a tokai is made, how a madeira is made. You have to know where Sabignoblo is growing all over the world. So we don't give basics. We only give the highest level than to, actually, to understand the wines, to analyze the wines, and to communicate about your knowledge and your relation to the wine. These are the prerequisites. It is difficult. You ask me about the experience and you probably can agree It's it's probably was the most difficult time in my life because you are so focused on learning, on studying, on getting all the knowledge and the experience in absorbing all that And this was all done next to my work, and we, the NWs, it's, have been working next to it. There are only a few lucky people who might not be working on all these studying, but it's all next to the work. And the challenge was to split my real life, and to find the the place, the time, to study for the NW, and the other thing is you meet people you are studying with the best in the world. And suddenly you're not, you know, meeting somebody who's doing this for fun, like the WST diploma, for example, you're studying with the best coin makers. With the best multiculturalists, with the best wine buyers and sellers. And suddenly you are in a different world already during the study program. It was a challenge. It was really a serious thing to do. And, I'm very happy that I made it. It's a lot of my colleagues they compared with climbing the Mount Everest. You're suffering, but when you reach the top, then it's the best view of the world, and that's simply it. Thank you, Karra. Well, Elga, when have you decided to enter the master summary program and, can you tell us some anecdotes on your journey to to the master summary? Yeah. So for me, I decided, I think, quite late in my career to go for the MSdiploma. Because basically, it was all settled. So I had a good job. I had a good payment. I had fantastic working times. Every day, a glass of champagne and good food at my work. But it was all a little bit feeling too comfy. And so I was in the in the end of my thirties. And, I have many, many colleagues who say, oh, gosh, at this age, how do you dare? It's crazy. You you have everything settled. But basically, I, yeah, I really wanted the challenge for myself. I wanted to improve my myself to to keep my board as well. And so I said, okay. If I do it, I will do it with the very best level I can achieve. So for me, it was very clear. I had to go for the MS. So and, I think I am still today. I'm really, really happy. I made this decision. Because like I was at, it is It is a challenge. You need to suffer. You really need to commit yourself. Because it's I think there is quite similar because it's with both educational forms. It's this unbelievable, the highest standard. So for instance, my husband, he needed to be happy, for three days, holiday at the late Constance because I was traveling all around the world and visiting vineyards. They said I don't have time. I need to go to Pennsylvania to South Africa I need to meet the winemakers. I need to see the countryside. I wanted to see the, yeah, the the single vineyards and to get all into into it into my brain because I am a person. I I know how to study from books, but for me, it doesn't it does not feel complete if I didn't see the spot itself. So I was traveling a lot. And, yeah, I think the the the dedication and commitment is really the one crucial point. So for me, basically, I realized as well that it's a lot about mental strengths. So I said, I always wanted to do a marathon. So I said, okay. Let's do it both. Because of both the stuff, you know, for the MS, for the marathon, you need a little bit of, yeah, stamina of mental strength. And so I did it both, you know, and within six months, I was I was ready to do my first marathon. And after a couple years longer. I did my MS. Wow. Yeah. But it's, yeah, I I think it's really unique. The thing is it's it's very true what Caro said that you meet, many fantastic people on a high level where you can, learn so many things from those guys internationally. So you've grown your few, you've grown your experience. But I think one of the, really important things as well that you learn a lot about yourself. And, you learn a lot about you, you know, everybody knows his sweet spots. Everybody knows where he's he or she is a little bit lazy. And it is, really a journey to yourself as well because you need to tackle those sweet spots because otherwise they will, they will break you in your way to become a n w or AMS, I think. Is like a therapy. So Yeah. It's it's you really need to face many things that you may be in a regular life. You don't want to face or you just ignore. Do I think it's really Yeah. I think it's so this was my experience. You really needed to be truthful to yourself and very strict. And, yeah, I think that's the that's the point. It helped me a lot. And I think one one thing is you have to develop self confidence You have to learn to believe in yourself. And the funny thing is I realized that most people don't believe in themselves. And I think you can only pass if you trust yourself, if you believe in yourself. So somehow your absolutely right people. It's a kind of a therapy. Yeah. I can tell you because I'm experiencing this. And, also, you need you need, some supporting family or friends, to get the video. Otherwise, it will be very difficult. Are you enjoying this podcast? There's so much more high quality wine content available from mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps. Our books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged, the jumbo shrimp guide to Italian wine, Sanjay Vazzy Lambrusco and other stories, and much, much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. So, and and, Alga, just to finish this part, who can access the program, which are the prerequisite? So, of course, it helps a lot when you work in the industry. So I highly recommend that you have a background coming from hospitality. Might it be hotel business or a restaurant business? You really should know already something about wine because it's you really need to study by yourself. You need to collect all the information by yourself. So, so but yeah, basically everybody from the from the hospitality business can, can do it. And, yeah, but but I at least recommend that you have, maybe done something like the WSTT or maybe in your own country, like, something like the summary of the chamber of of commerce, for instance, and and trade, something like this. So you get the basic knowledge, because then you really have the basics and you can build up on this. And because I think it's it's important to come from hospital hospitality since Carl mentioned earlier, It's also a lot about the deportation of, for instance, in the practical service. So you need to be sure about to open a bottle of champagne. You need to be sure when or why to the counter line. You need to be able to explain it. You also need to be able to, to, to treat with, you know, with some, you know, unfriendly guests or customers or something like this, and you need to be able, since it is very close to the to the actual life and hospitality, you need to be able to switch very quickly. So like in a restaurant, a regular restaurant, you need to answer the one table something about the anti classic code. The next table is asking you something about Zarka. The third table is asking you something about the wine law in Greece. So you need to be very quick with those things. Now I think there is, the funny part of the, this, of this this session, that will allow us to better understand the differences of the, among the work, among the the goal of master summary and master wine. So I will ask Carol and Erica to, to approach the how they approach the testing in a master wine format and However, I will approach the testing of the, master's Somedia. You have both, a bottle of Framingham, Sumignon Blanc from New Zealand, Marlboro, and, I will be happy to know how would you approach this? So we want to start. I don't mind. So please hang on. Okay. Cool. So how we start. Maybe our our way of describing might be a little bit with, maybe with some more markers concerning the brood or the taste flavors because, of course, our goal is always to pair the wine with the food. So what we do, we have a very strict system. It starts, with the side. So we always first consider the side of of a wine. So you do it best when you hold it, like, in the back of, in front of a white sheet. If you do it like this, and then you would consider with a wine like this. I would say it's a bright, pale straw, and it has some slightly greenish use, maybe a tiny little bit c o two in it. So this gives you already an indication. About the age, of the wine and, about the climate, maybe about the bubbling as well. So with a color like this, I would estimate it's more or less a young wine coming from a slightly cooler region. Maybe under screw cap because of the slightly CO2 in it. Then you go to the nose for the nose assessment. And the first thing is always that you assess, again, whether it's clean, a little bit, about the age and intensity. So the first thing would be, I would say, yes, it's clean. It's a young, white, a young impression I get from this wine because it's a very lively fruit. And in terms of the, intensity, I would say it's rather high intensity because I get lots of flavors from this, from this wine. And then we follow Lika, so you you need to set up a structure for yourself, so which is convenient for you. But for me, I always do it like I first check the flavors on citric notes, then on, like citrus fruits, then I go to stone fruit. I go to, altered fruit. I follow them for exotic flavors, for flowers, for herbs, maybe for wood indication as well, and then later on as well for the minerality. So this would be the steps on the nose. So unlike this, I would say, it I have white. I have white grapefruit. I have also notes of guave, which is more the exotic part. I have notes of elderberry flowers going to the flowers, but also like, then with the herbs like, lemon balm, also some veggie notes, like, jalapenos, or the bit of green asparagus. So a little bit of the punchy notes as well. The soil, I think, is more delicate. You get a little bit of the stony soil, but it's not as as in preface, as you get the gravy from the lower belly. We really have to stones and the dust in it. So it's more more subtle. The whole thing. And then I get from the notes, some windy fei, notes of the reunification as well. So I get some, lazy, yeasty notes, which might indicate from some batonage or some aging on the leaves as well. And I get a slightly wooden impact with a very slight vanilla flavor. So this would be the the description of the nose. Then I go on with the pallet with the pallet. I do it personally that I go first for the structure, like acidity, alcohol, etcetera. Then I go again for the flavors. I check whether I have, like, repeating flavors or whether there are additional ones. I also go for the, for the minerality, of course, for the wood again, for the, for all those specs, I also covered already covered in the notes. Then I go to my, initial, of, yeah, initial conclusion where I say, okay, it might be this or that area or break variety, and then I go to the final conclusion. So going back to the pallet, I would say again. It's a clean wine with a higher acidity medium body, medium alcohol. It's around thirty degree. Let me check. So I don't explain something. Yeah. Thirty degrees. Nice. And I also get a subtle structure coming. So I I get a tiny little bit of phenolic bitterness. So just might indicate that this wine was aged maybe partly on the with some skin contact or, a tiny bit of whole plaster pressing here as well because it gives you the structure on the pallet with, which reminds you a little bit with, notes of almonds. And then again, I think the, the the notes are confirmed. I had in the notes, like the guava and a little bit of this lemon balm but I think it's now more earthy. I get the gold kiwi with it. Also, some levels, a little bit more of the screeny touch. In the finish, I think more the, the creaminess, which indicates some good aging, but not too much, only partly for it to give it some structure and some length and some, yeah, complexity as well. You have to go on. It's it's quite quite a lot of long testing. Yes. I Oh, and then I say, okay. Still the screen fresh flavor stuff. And I would say, okay. It's a cool climate. It's definitely a new world style. It's a young wine, roughly between one and three years old. And then I eliminate all the all the areas that can't be. So it can't be in my impression, like, for instance, South Africa, because this would be a bit more a stare. Chile would be a bit more on the minty fresh style. California where it grows would maybe a little bit more on the on the woody side as well. It can't be old world because it would be more, more open it. So I would go say I would go and say it's a classic New Zealand, solving your blog for marble origination. This is my approach. And we have to do it like this with six wines within twenty five minutes. You've taken your total time now. Sorry. And, Carla, which, which will be your focus as, n w testing? I have to be short now because in our exam, we would have ten minutes per let me just, we usually don't do it like this. We don't get a class. That's it's for me, the circle's pawnee number when when I get a class, is it? Same. Tell me what wine this is. We get actually questions. Like for a line like this, we would get, the questions identified a great variety, identify the origin, identify the winemaking, quality, and, states, the maturity of wine. What Hager has done is a description. And at the end she draws a short conclusion. For us, this is not valid at all. My description would be very short. If I were to take the glass like this, I would say, passion lemon fruit, nettle, that's it. This is already, you know, this is for me, this is the typical aroma for solving your blow. I'm not, you know, I'm not coming up with guave and whatever, and and so on three descriptors. That's it. And then I go on and I would say, what makes it so in your blow? Hi, Vivint, acidity, medium body lack of obvious oak, which is so common for a sauvignon blanc, lack of residual sugar dry wine. And, I believe maybe it's in the thirteenth or coming from a warmer region, And then it's asking about the region. Clearly, my role or New Zealand, my role for being so, expressive to being so generous. It's a useful wine with queen flavonaut. It's typical for my role. The pH level might be three point two, the crisp acidity, the crispiness of the acidity palette weight, and, this will probably bring you to my role. Also, the generosity in expressing the fruit, which is a typical new world style, which is actually a typical niberal style. It's too overt for being classical, old world. It's this, mixture of passion fruit on the one hand side and, queen stuff on the other side, which is so typical for my role. And, yeah, just to shorten it a little bit because I know we are tight in time. We were discussing winemaking. I was asked about winemaking, no overt, new oak the creaminess points out to some some, to malolactic fermentation, maybe the the phenolic, composition points to some some short pre fermentation observation, the expressive clear foods such as cool fermentation, possibly with aroma fixing yeast. This is my role. And then what's what else did I make by notes? Quality and state of maturity. It's a young wine, showing no tertiary character, and quality is higher than, high volume. So it might be from a single estate and, things like that. So I only use every evidence, and I draw a conclusion out of it. I'm never telling, ten things in one row. I use the aroma. That's it. I use the acidity and the conclusion. I use the alcohol warmer climate, cooler climate. I use everything, and I never use more than three evidences for drawing out one conclusion. And to be very honest, I'm a very, generous person in describing wines for other people. Because there is no guave in this wine. There is no, there is actually no nettle in this wine, no as far as in this wine. There's no lemon, no passion fruit in this wine. So what Hager describes, I think it's absolutely valid. But some people do it with, the with different descriptors, as long as they end up with the right conclusion, I'm very, I accept a lot of describing things. I think there is nothing like this in a wine. So this is the difference between it. So we are analyzing a wine and we're not describing a wine. We are drawing conclusions and this description is just a minor part. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I think in a part, you are right, but I think in a, you know, way of describing it's an analytic analytic way of describing that we do as well because it's funny with the guava because I was never never happy with this Guave when I was first starting tasting. And all my Asian colleagues, they were talking about guave. I couldn't understand it because I said, what bloody hell do you have it? How does it taste like? So what did I do? I went and bought, for instance, just to taste and to calibrate my nerves on this flavor that I was not so much used to than those guys. And for me today, it's really a flavor I only get in New Zealand wine or New Zealand, sauvignon blower and never get it in in a saucera or something. Never ever. But this was, yeah, you're getting maybe a little more more markers or different markers that leads you to the to the same, conclusion in a way. Yeah. So thank you both in really interesting and different in a way, analytical, but also descriptive and, I wanted to make another, question to you both before to pass to the audience because at the end of the day, I think that people want to know, not only how difficult is the process, but also, which are the paybacks, one once you reach the the status. So, Carol, did you get any career improvement or positive outcomes from this? Oh, yes. Definitely. First of all, it pays back all the fees, which are all the money I've invested paid back within one year. So the investment was worth it. Let me put it this way. And the outcome is that, funny thing is I'm a journalist. I'm I'm coming from a journalistic side. And it was the first time that people, you know, were asking me questions. So I became I became the object of interest. Yeah, you become not famous. You know, famous means only in the world of wine on this little planet where people are talking about wine, but I'm well known in the little planet wine, when it comes to German wines or in Germany. And it helps you in getting jobs. It helps you in setting your career. There are new chances coming up to you. But honestly, the best about it is the people you meet, the context you've made, the friends you win during all that time, and I think it's not only you should not only calculate by by the career outcome, but also by the possibility of meeting people like you and becoming friends, with you guys. And I think this was the best outcome is the network I built on during my study time and afterwards. And I must say, was it worth it again? I repeat myself. Yes. Absolutely. And, for Elga, how the master's so Maria has changed your life? And if you would recommend this to, to appear. Yeah. So I would also really recommend it because I think as well, it really pays off in so many ways. So, so you can, of, of course, you will have the opportunity to choose from from different shops. So the, the variety is just larger that is broader. The offer you get is just broad as well. And, so it opens many doors. And, yeah, but I say as well, one of the of the biggest, gaining biggest awards I had personally was really, to see that, yeah, it helps to grow yourself. I I really definitely think you're becoming a better person, because you get all these connections. You, yeah, you really learn as well a lot about yourself. And, yeah, but then, of course, it gives you lots of good, career, chances like all over the planet as well. But I would definitely recommend it because it is hard. It is tough, but it really pays off in in many, many ways. So now we have a question from the audience. So the question, has for if each incident, if both institutes ask you to refresh your knowledge once you pass, so if you refresh your frequently, your knowledge, if if they ask you this, like a lawyer or like a magician, if they need to be trained, year by year, or once you are in the with this title. I can, in a way, reply. My impression is that, you are such a high standard that you need to be always, up to date. Right? Yeah. But, maybe you can give you can give us, your impression on that. So I think it's it's absolutely necessary that you refresh it by yourself. The knowledge is not because you are asked to do it. Because you yourself want to do it. It's not like gaining the title and then bam, that's it. I will sit down and never do anything again. No. On the contrary because, cow as well, you are also you are mentor for people. I am I'm a mentor for for so many who who going on the on the path of the of the MS, and it's crucial to be up to date. And you want to be up to date, of course, because it's you didn't do it just for the title because you did it out of a passion. Otherwise, you can do it. And, then, of course, maybe I'm not able, you know, like one of these guys who is sitting now, the exams for the master's only is to repeat, like, out of out of nowhere, like, all the ABAs from California. Maybe I'm not too frightened this at the moment because I'm not into the training, but, definitely, I think it's absolutely necessary that you stay up to date with all the developments. Know, it's it's, yeah, it's crucial, I think. We do have actually, so many sessions which are offered to MWs and which are attended by MWs. It's everything which is update, like sustainability, wines from everyone in the world, situations or current problems, current topics from the world. They're offered by the NC two to everyone. Number one. Number two is yeah. Hega mentioned something. The best to stay updated is actually becoming a mentor for students and people. When you're marking papers from students still preparing for the exam, I think they I learn. I learn by, helping students. I learn by giving feedback to students. And, I think this is actually the best way to learn and the nicest way to learn and to stay updated. But we have to stay updated. I think someone who leans back and relaxes says, I have the title now. I'm not doing anything anymore, will be out of the business within a very short time, because, I think there's movement every day. And like Edah, I was one of the, well, let me put this more, yeah, older ones doing the title. And for me, the biggest luxury, which I realized in life is learning. And, BMW gave me the chance to learn, to study, to move forward, not to stagnate. And I think this became one of the goals in my life. To learn every day a little bit. Something new. Something new about the world of wine, and I think this will never ever end. Thank you, Garro, and, Andrea, for your impression. And I'm so sorry. We have just finished the time. Available. There was such, interesting and, educational session with, with two German speakers, One M W and one master sommelier that, have, discussed with us how to reach these titles. And, what what does this mean exactly? I think this is only, the peak of the iceberg of such, such important letter, such important credential. So if you want to deepen more inside, this, this work, both word master of wine and master summary, you can, get information on both of the websites and, or you can probably ask, the our speakers. And, thank you again, Carol and Delvia for for being with us. And thank you to the audience. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for moderating Pedal. It was great to see you again. And if there are any questions, I think everyone can share them with us, and we're not running away. And even if we are switched off, just an email or contact through line to line, you'll find us. Yeah. Just feel free to contact us, and then it's absolutely fine. We're happy to answer. And thank you for the moderation as well, Pietio. Thank you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, email ifm, and more. 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