Ep. 1207 Importers Writers & Sommeliers In Japan | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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I am Dario Bergamini, the regional sales manager of ethical wines for Japan and Korea, who's not familiar with ethical wines, we are, an importer of fine Italian wines in the United States. And in Asia Pacific, we act as a a trading and marketing agency. Today in this session, we are going to get a very precise insight on the Japanese wine market. As you can see, the title of this session is sophisticated importers and established wine writers and stars as a familiar, how they set the wine market trends in Japan. So let me introduce there a later. My friend and neighbor of perfector Rodie Ropner. He's based I'm based in Kanagawa. He's based, in the beautiful coastal town of Ahtami in Shizwaka Prefecture. A very famous touristic destination, not so far from Tokyo, very famous for the onsen or the hot springs, which is probably the secret behind the beautiful skin condition Okay, sir. Rob. Robini has me. So, yeah, he's a wine brighter, focusing on the Japanese wine market. He currently writes about this topic for the country magazine and mainly a wine business international. In his, first career, he was, with Christie's option auction house. The initial ten years as a specialist of Chinese course lane were followed by ten years in the management roles, including managing director of Fris japan. So let's give the word to Rodney. Hello. And, thank you very much, Daria. Nice to see you again. And, thank you very much for letting me talk about, Japan and the wine market here. So, what I'm going to do is, in a minute, just, press on to the, slideshow. And I hope that you can see that. Can you see that, Gary? Yep. Okay. Okay. So what I wanted to do first was to talk about why Japan. What I noticed over the last maybe fifteen years is that Japan slowly got sort of pushed into the background when people think about the the markets in Asia. But the reality is that Japan is actually an economic powerhouse. People often forget that it's the third largest economy in the world. Third after America and China. It's also the second largest wine market in Asia. And, in a world context, it's the sixth largest wine importer worldwide by value. Some of these figures will undoubtedly have changed over the last year. But I think when we get back to COVID, post COVID, this this figure will will hold up. So the sixth largest wine in Porta worldwide. It's also home to thirty million regular wine consumers. That's a figure, presented by wine intelligence, and they they quote, I think it's people who are drinking wine, once a month. So those kind of figures are probably quite easy to come across and probably quite well known to many of the listeners and many of the the people watching this this presentation. But what many people may not know is that Japan is also a very popular tourist destination. So it's has thirty two had thirty two million tourists a year in the run up to well the Olympics just before the Olympics. The original Olympics of twenty twenty. So Many of those tourists are actually what I would call Kourmet tourists. They're coming here for the scenery. They're coming here for the sites, but they're coming here to eat and drink. So if as a wine winery, a wine producer, you can get your wines into a retail, outlet, or you can get them into a restaurant where they those consumers are eating and drinking. Really, you can think of as Japan as a kind of shop window for the rest of Asia. So those are some of the reasons why I think that Japan is extremely relevant now and any winery that is thinking about which export markets to concentrate on they would do very well to to to take another look at the Japanese market. So this is just a quick overview of what I'm going to talk about. So I've got eleven or twelve slides I'm gonna give a quick overview of the nature of the market here. Talk about some, something called the economic partnership agreements just briefly. And then I run through, three or four trends, sparkling wine, low intervention organic wines, less is more, written less is more, twice. Influent, and then talk about some of the influential, people who have influence over the market. Which are the importers, the wine writers, and the sommeliers that were mentioned in the title. And then just in case unless you think I'm given to a glowing uh-uh a report of the market here, we do a reality check and perhaps I'm look at some some of the real situation on the ground. What I would say is that if there's any questions that come up during the talk, please feel free to interrupt. So if we go to the first step, we talk about, established market. So when people think about, Asia, they often think about this as a sort of one big, emerging market. I mean, the fact is that Japan is actually a very established market. If you look at media which is really like a high end grocer, it's with with a number of stores throughout Japan. They've been importing French wines including including Chateau Laf since the nineteenth century. If you take Takashimaya, which is a high end department store, they've been importing domain law since nineteen seventy two. So nearly fifty years. From an Italian perspective, if you take, a food liner, which is a food and wine importer, they've been working with an importing pure pan since the nineteen eighties. So all of that is to say that Japan is not really an emerging market. It's actually an established market and you could think of it as a as a mature market. The other thing that I think is quite interesting about the market here is that it's quite a a stable market and with relatively low political risk. I mentioned that because perhaps ten, fifteen years ago, that wouldn't really have been uh-uh a point worth making. But if you think over the last six or seven years, how, America has imposed tariffs on European wines, how China has, imposed anti dumping duties on Australian wine. And we've had that whole, Brexit Fias I can call it Fiesta because I'm English. So, so that has created a lot of political risk, in in the market and made it more difficult, I think, for wineries to plan where they should want to do their export. But you really don't get that kind of political risk in Japan, which is very stable, has a very stable democratic government. It's about to have an election at the end of this month, and the same party will no doubt be voted back into power that has been in power for most of the last fifty five years. But there's an actually sort of economic reason behind, why they want to keep stability with their trading partners is because Japan has a population of one hundred and twenty seven million people, but the population is shrinking. So Japan needs to find more markets to export and it's very unlikely they're going to start a trade war with any of the wine producing countries around the world. So evidence of that are these economic partnership agreements, EPA's. These are agreements with countries that eliminate or reduce import duties on wine. So this started with Chile in two thousand of in two thousand seven, they've been signed with Australia with the EU with New Zealand and, most recently with the USA. In truth, what it does is it reduces import duties and that has most most impact on the lower value wines. So that has helped Chile to become the number one importing country by by volume. Overtaking France. It's less impact on the on the higher value wines, but I I think that actually it's it's a statement of intent that Japan is looking toward towards having stable relations with its trading partners. And that I think to many people perhaps the stability in a market of this size may outweigh the benefits or the perceived benefits of perhaps are more dynamic markets but which are perhaps less stable. So now if we look at some of the trends that are emerging, in in in Japan. So Japan, we can think of as a major player for sparkling wine. I suppose the best example of that would be a champagne. So Japan is the third largest export market worldwide by both value and volume after the USA and after the UK. And what produces, champagne particularly like about this market is that the Japanese really have an appreciation for quality and they are going after prestige couvees as well as grow our champages. So they're not afraid to pay top dollar for the best wines and that makes it a very attractive market for for those wanting to export here. There is a sort of interesting aside that the very high end, champagne such as with but, krug, amongst others. And those do very well at, in night clubs. So, where where a lot of the entertaining is done and, their businesses have expense accounts. So those probably have suffered a bit over the last eighteen months. But on the other side, the grocery campaigns have been sold mostly in in restaurants and those have and also to private private clients. And those have held up sales of bills that are grower champagnes have held up very strongly over the last year. It's worth noting in the Italian context that, with French a quarter, that Japan is also a very strong market for a furniture quarter. It it varies. It advise with Switzerland to be the first or second, strongest, largest export market for furniture quarter and has done so for a number of years now. Conversely, and what is quite interesting is that Japan is not a major market for prosecco. So if you think about other big markets around the world, but appreciates Spartan White. You've got let's say the UK and the USA. Japan is kind of bucking that trend. So, Japan, yes, they like sparkling wine, but it's not all sparkling wines that they like. But certainly, if you're a sparkling wine producer, I would definitely be looking at at Japan. I think that the market has probably suffered over the last eighteen months, but I imagine that it's going to bounce back and I don't think this is a trade, a trend that is going to disappear suddenly. If we look at another trend that is quite pervasive, we can talk about low intervention wines Well, I I put these two together, low intervention and organic wines. I'll say a bit about them separately, but according to the blue intervention wines, but maybe some people talk about natural wines. First thing to say is that I don't think that the terms are necessarily clearly, clearly understood by consumers, but, on the other hand, I would say that this is definitely a trend. If not the phenomenon, it's not something that is a passive trend either. To give you some examples, so which is a natural wine buy in Tokyo. It opened in nineteen ninety three. So that's merely thirty years ago. Wrote a book, which is published in two thousand four, which was a very critical look in in Japanese. It's a very critical look at the natural wine market. And that was one of the impetances to to kick start the market which until that point have been actually been just bubbling along but not not so strong. Another sort of impetus for the market was the importance such as Racine. They're not the only importer of these low intervention wines, but they placed great emphasis on correct storage of life. The shipping of wines from Europe and then the correct storage, and distribution of wines in Japan. To the extent that they would refuse to sell wines to retailers or restaurants that didn't have correct storage facilities. I mean, everyone, anyone who's been to Japan in the summer knows that it's incredibly hot here, incredibly humid. And these kind of low intervention wines. If they are not if they're not stored correctly, have a tendency to to go off very quickly. So I think that this huge emphasis on storage and the correct storage and shipping of the wines has been one of the key factors in in supporting the trend. And we can now say that it's really more it's not a trend anymore. It's it's really established. So I would say natural wines, low intervention wines, their niche, but they're also highly visible. So, you will see natural wines, low intervention wines on, Mishlar restaurant wine lifts, You'll see them in wine bars, you'll see them in shops. You would see them. It's not only in Tokyo. It's a not only in all the big cities. I'm here, New Mountain Dario in in Latami. We're a tiny little town, maybe thirty thousand people. But there is one lady who's a leading distributor of natural wines in the village next door working from a refrigerated container. So it's it's something that you can see throughout the country and it's I say it's it's more than a trend now. It's it's really an an established and mainstream. I think the other thing that is interesting is that organic wines are also becoming increasingly popular. Or perhaps we should say organically grow wines made from organically grown grapes. And that has also been reported across the board, in supermarkets and across all retailers. There's a growing trend of growing interest and a growing enthusiasm for organic wines. The next trend I've talked about is less is more. I I think this is probably not something especially specific to to Japan. But certainly over the last ten or fifteen years, as has been seen in other parts of the world. There is a a sort of an an interest in wines with lower alcohol wines that are less heavily owned, wines are less extracted. You could think of them as more food friendly wines I mean it's Japanese do not tend to drink wine on its own apps in a way that maybe people in Europe might go home at the end of the day and open a bottle of wine and have a drink before dinner. Certainly in England, that would happen. But in Japan, people don't people tend to drink wine with food. And so this emphasis on wines with low alcohol, less heavily oat, less extracted. It really fits in, I think, with what one might think of the stereotypical sort of Japanese taste, if you will. And then there's something which might seem a little bit strange to to include in trends. But I think it's something that actually uh-uh is is quite relevant for wineries. It's wine sets. They're sold as wine sets that in English we might also call mixed cases. So these are assets. These are selections made by the retailer based on the region, the styled the variety or the producer can be can be anything that they they choose. These are now standard with every kind of retailer. I'd probably get a dozen emails a day from everything from supermarkets through to high end retailers. And everybody is promoting sense. So I think there's two points here. One is that there's a parallel to line pairing menus that we see in restaurants everywhere in Japan. So when you go to a restaurant, you actually don't have to open a wine list and go through and look for your favorite wine. The wine, the sommelier, has has done all the work for you. So you have a different class of wine with every dish. If if it's if it's a wine focused restaurant. Basically, the wine sets take the strain and all the stress or the hassle out of choosing wine, which is really quite convenient. Actually, if if you're not that engaged with wine, it's actually quite a relief to be offered set because if you trust a retailer, they've done all the hard work for for you. If you don't like their selection, you probably won't go back to them. So they work very hard to make sure that these sets are are are are compiled with high quality wines. So I think that for wineries, perhaps that's part of the discussion they could have with importers is, the mix of wines that they're sending or perhaps how they can adjust their packaging, to to take part in this trend which is now that I say is is everywhere from supermarkets to the highest end retailers. So that was the some of the trends that are going that are taking place maybe it's it's useful now to think about the importers. So, I've mentioned here, okay, importers experienced and well established. I think part of the point that I was trying to make is okay. Well, there's there's about two fifty well established, well known, recognized, importers here. What I was trying to do is is having worked in, other countries. What I saw was a trend that people who have successful businesses, they travel overseas, they enjoy wine, they come back, and they think, oh, I think I'll start a wine importing business. That was very common in, in Hong Kong about ten years ago. So, you don't really see that kind of phenomenon in in in Japan. These people are dedicated well established and devoted to importing wine. Along with those well established is now a new generation of micro importers. So if there's anyone looking at this presentation and thinking gosh, I I haven't gotten an important yet, They're not so easy to find, but there are a whole new set of importance that have come up that are well worth looking out. Are you enjoying this podcast? There's so much more high quality wine content available from mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps. Our books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged. The jumbo shrimp guide to Italian wine, sangiovese Lambrusco, and other stories, and much much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. And the other thing that they do is, every bottle well, seventy percent of the wine consumed in Japan is imported. Thirty percent is made domestically. Seventy percent is imported. So every bottle of wine that is imported into Japan needs to have, a back label showing the name of the importer. And what this does is it gives the importers actually a very high visibility. I think of comparing it to I've just been in England for two months. Where I bought wine based on whether I knew the winery or whether I I trusted the retailer. I didn't give a second thought to who had imported the wine. But in Japan, actually, the importers have a sort of status that is equivalent to the retailer. And in some cases, it's almost as as as prestigious as the as the winery itself. So on the right, you see this rather bad quality slide. I'm afraid that I took from a website of a a an online retailer. And he actually allows buyers to search for wines by the by the importer. So if you like the wines of, let's say, finesse, specializes in burgundy. You could just put in finesse and all of his or all their wines will come up. Or if you like the wines of, small Italian, they specialize in small Italian wineries. You could search for them. So I thought that's quite an interesting idea, but what it does is it also when you go to a a a retailer and you have a wall of wine in front of you, if you're not quite sure whether you like that wine or might like that wine, you can turn the bottle around. You can see the name of the the importer, and it acts as almost like a seal of approval or seal of guarantee. And, I often do that. I happen to like the wines of Evie, you know, I have to like the wines of Racine and Finesse, if I see their their labels on the back and I don't know the wine, I'm more than happy to give that wine a shot because I like the other wines in the portfolio of these importers. So that's just a word about the the importers. The other group that I think are quite interesting, a wine writers. And again, we can perhaps think of this in, in contrast to to other regions or other countries. I mean, the wine writers here there is nobody. I should stop by saying there's nobody with the influence of let's say Robert Parker or even Genesis Robinson. But these wine writers are knowledgeable. They are dedicated and, may this is what they do. They're they're not bloggers. They're not, they're not social media influences. They're they're not celebrities. Is quite interesting to compare with a very good talk yesterday. It was given by Fongie Walker in China. And she said that basically some of the online, influencers, if you've got one from, from a couple of big cities, I think you mentioned Chongqing and Shenzhen, but if you had one influencer from each of those big cities, you could sell the entire annual output of a medium sized winery. Well, there's nobody in Japan with that kind of influence and certainly no social media influencer. But what you have is these these wine writers and, you see, Yamamoto is a is a good example of that. He had a previous career as a as a journalist working for one of the most prestigious newspapers. And when he retired in two thousand fourteen, he set up, something called wine report, and he reports daily on stories of interest from around the world and on his tastings. And his is the only subscription based wine website in Japan, and I think he has about ten thousand, readers. So he's not the only one, but he's perhaps a person with the most influence as shown by the fact that he has a subscription based website. And so I think a number of times I've been asked to when I'm researching for doing some reports for regions, people say, oh, who are the social media people that we need to contact? I don't think you need to contact anyone for social media influence in Japan. What you need to do is to contact or try and invite your tastings or try and invite your region. Wine writers who are respected for their knowledge and for the detail and for their dedication. The other group of people that I think worth mentioning are Semellius So there is an umbrella organization called the Japan Semilia Association. They have a registered membership of fourteen and a half thousand Semilius, which of which I think about half of those are working full time. What's interesting is that, I mean, they really do play a key role for many years. You can imagine that a lot of Japanese don't speak English. They don't don't read English, let alone French or Italian or Spanish. So, and they don't have wide for detailed wine knowledge. They are very happy to ask the advice and to take the advice of sommeliers. So the sommeliers play a play a really key role in in selling wine. And I think that up to now, if you were lucky enough to go to any of the the really established Michena starred foreign, restaurants, French, Italian, Spanish restaurants, in Japan. You will find very senior, sommeliers with a lot of experience, you know, twenty, thirty, forty years experience. Many of them who've been working in those restaurants for twenty or thirty years, and they have immaculate wine list. But you can say that those wine lists are very traditional with a heavy focus on the big houses of champagne, bordeaux, and etcetera. Those those sort of wines. But what I love sister over the last five years is starting to see a new generation of Somenier. That it's perhaps, a little more inclusive and a little more, forward looking. And, the example I've given here, and again, it's just one person, but there's mister Ooyama, who worked for, well, he's just joined, a new restaurant in Kyoto, which is a modern Spanish restaurant called Kokke, k o k e. And within a year, the fine wine magazine has nominated his as the best short wine list in Asia. Had to be put forward for the the final worldwide competition, but it's pretty impressive with only six months, less than six months. I think working there that he's put together such a successful wine list. And I think it's also interesting. It's a modern Spanish restaurant. They only have two wines from but what they have is that they have much stronger, emphasis on the modern wine producers from Spain such as Raal Perez and the Himales Landi commando g. They also have uh-oh I think they have forty forty growers champagnes No. None of the big houses only grow our champagnes. And for the Spanish parks, sparkling wines are, I think three out of four or two out of three are pet nuts. So, quote you can see is is is perhaps just a a slightly modern approach to to creating these windings. And that I think makes it actually quite exciting. And I I what I would say is you are not probably going to find sommeliers with with tattoos and ponytails. But, very hardworking professionals. I'm not saying that guys with ponytails and, tattoos are not not hardworking, but they're still very traditional. They look very traditional, but they've got a very modern approach in in the wines that they, the the wines that select. And I think that's very encouraging for the the future of of of wine wine sales in Japan. So unless I give a two glowing report, about Japan. Maybe we need to think about some of the negatives or some of the the reality of the situation here. Japan still has very low per capita consumption. It peaked in about two thousand and fifteen or two thousand sixteen having risen quite steadily from about two thousand and eight. So the capital consumption is still only about three liters per annum. And I think in Italy their figure is thirty nine liters or two thousand eighteen. It was two thousand was thirty nine liters per annum. So Japan has stopped at about three liters and is just moving sideways. It's too much to say whether that figure will increase. If you want to take a positive view, there's plenty of room for growth. But at the moment, the figure has, have this static over the last three or four years. Four or five years actually. The next problem is that there's an aging population and that's a problem in the sense that the wealthier demographic is are the are the older population and I think that they said that twenty five percent of the population here is now is over sixty five. So the people with money, actually their the amount they're drinking is actually, reducing. And it's not clear at this stage whether there's a new generation of of young wine drinkers coming into the market to to take over from them. So that's another thing that we have to bear in mind. And the last thing I wanna say is that over the last thirty years, there's there's really been this Japan's been plagued by the problem of deflation or low inflation. This week, I saw a figure that says that, salaries have only increased by four percent four percent in the last thirty years. The knock on effect for that is that prices have not risen in the last thirty years. You can think of this in a in a very positive way if you're a consumer. Doesn't matter whether you're going by taxi or you're having dinner at a restaurant. What we're not seeing is any increase in prices of the last thirty years. The prices have remained the same. The problem is that it means that the importers can't increase their prices. Distributors can't increase their increase their prices and the restaurants can't increase their prices, which means that the wineries can't increase increase their prices. So I think that winers need to bear that in mind when they come to this market that they're not will not be able to to build in higher margins or increase in prices every year. The reason I put the dot dot dot there is that actually just two days ago, I I I read something that Japan has because of the the the low value of the yen and increasing commodity prices that inflation is starting to take off. So there's maybe another question mark, arising from COVID. We don't know whether inflation will be coming back, but for the last thirty years, there has not been inflation in this country. So just to run, to finish off. So the takeaways from this is that I would say this is a large sophisticated and mature market. You've got a huge amount of conservative consumers, who are open to new regions and new styles if supported by credible influencers such as those importers, wine writers, and sommeliers. You've also got this amazing shop window for other Asian countries. I think trends to think about, spartan wines, low intervention wines, natural organic wines, wines with low alcohol, less influence, and wine sets. So that's the end of my presentation. So thank you very much. I stopped sharing now. Now to the Q and A section. Okay. And I've noticed we got a couple of questions regarding the e commerce. So The first one is from Joseph Timkovsky. He's wondering about e commerce share in the wine market. And, also, are the main decision, how are the main decision to make, which are the main decision to make in factors when people buy wine online in Japan. How important are taste preferences in that? Okay. I think to the first to the first part of the question, there's three major platforms for, wine retail. So you've got, these wine the marketplace. And so you've got, Amazon, Rakuten and Yahoo Japan. So, Yahoo still existed in Japan. Yeah, Yahoo Japan. You've got Amazon, which everybody will know about. But you've got homegrown rakuten which is basically a a Japanese website. It builds itself more as a bazaar. So if you if you go and look at Rakuten, it less it looks less like a sort of less organized than Amazon. But it's actually extremely popular. I have tried to get the figures for wine sales from each of these, organizations, but they don't divulge their wine sales figures. But each of them has their own positives and negatives, but those are probably the three the three main wine markets that you would you would see. And what was quite interesting was that you think that for what is apparently a technologically very advanced country online wine sales were not such a big thing before COVID. So there's been a huge, it's just quite a it's just quite a lot because, there there already was a very good infrastructure of, delivery services, which is probably the best in the world. So and I I think that what we're seeing is that some some retailers are really embracing it. I mean, I interviewed some people for an article on on about online retailing. Some like uh-uh Enoteca has got a very advanced system, and they're they're going beyond laptops to to mobile retailing. Mhmm. And that has really driving their sales. And obviously there's a generation of people who love that. And again, if we listened to the talk yesterday, about China, that Chinese consumers would totally understand that. But you also have to think, and Dario, you would notice that many people in Japan still prefer to use cash. So I mean, it's changing. Slowly changing. It's slowly changing, but, you know, you and when you go to a restaurant, you don't necessarily know whether they're going to accept a credit card. Yeah. You don't know how much the bill is going to be, but you don't know also whether they're going to take a credit card. And there are other things that people will send products to you and then you pay for them, which is almost unheard of in any other country. Right there. So so online retailing has fallen behind. So I just said, so that's to answer the first part of the question. The second part was, what drives? Yes. It was, about the laptop of how much it is the share of the e commerce. And, Oh, I just got to the share. I mean, I think it there's no figures. Okay. Okay. The best I could do was I, I and I don't have no at the top of my head. I'm afraid, but there were figures which were relatively small for quite well known, supermarkets like Aon, which are like two percent of their sales, which is the biggest supermarket chain here. And ranging up to, I think, Enoteca, which I I I I don't want to give the wrong figure, but it was it was, you know, more than twenty percent of their of their retail figures. So it varies by organization. I just say that because Elon is the biggest supermarket chain, but they have not really pursued not yet, or not six months ago, they had not pursued e commerce. Sure. And then when were the what are the the main decision making factors when people buy online? That's something. I I mean, I I think that okay. So if if we as I said, I mean, the focus of this presentation was less for the the people who are buying at supermarkets. And then I think it's a question of price. Yeah. That the the if you go to a supermarket convenience store, most of the wines that you will see are chewy. And I don't think it's necessarily because Japanese adore chilean wine. I think it's because it's good value and the Williams are able to provide uh-uh a very high level of quality at a certain price because of excellent distribution. But, if you're talking about the higher, I think there's there's too many factors probably to to pick up one or two. I mean Japanese consumers are incredibly knowledgeable when they're engaged. Even they have the word like it's it's like you know, and they're almost they're proud about that in the same way that maybe people in Europe are not that good. Yes. Yeah. They're they're they're geeks about this. The more information that wineries can provide, the more information that you can give, for engaged consumer, the better. So some of the wine webs Yeah. Not to forget the the visual impact because, level is a is a very important thing in in all Asian markets, but especially in Japan where the attention to the details and, every kind of lacking perfection is not is not forgiven. For example. It's not acceptable. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So it's still, about the e commerce. Yeah. Is it popular sales channel? Yes. Of course. We have talked about that. And, can retailers buy direct from wineries or do they still need an importer? Well, I I know one example because I interviewed, they're called Tuscany. They are quite quite well known, online retailer. And I thought it was very interesting that they they do import import their wines directly. Yeah. They they cannot, like, the consumer cannot buy directly from, from the winery, but they still need it imported. But, yeah, like, bigger, e commerce provider like Tuscany, they act also as important. It's our attention. Like you mentioned, and I'll take as a fan, for example. It's not Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So another question. Do you think that wines will be able Italian wines will be able to enter the channel of Japanese traditional cuisine and restaurants? We we believe there is a great feeling between Italian wines and Japanese traditional food. Yeah. Yeah. I think that this is, this is almost like the last frontier for people because it's, you know, there's eight thousand Italian restaurants, but that's so important. Yes. Massive. It's incredible. It's incredible. That's your opinion. So there's the the the challenge for not only Italian wines is to break into the Japanese restaurants but I tell you the sushi restaurant I go to here occasionally when I'm feeling I can afford it. It seats only five people. Yeah. And they have no room for a wine fridge and they have no knowledge about wine and they don't have the time to learn about it. So I'm gonna go back and try and persuade them. But they're they're kind of willing, but they don't know how to serve a glass of wine. You know, mostly consumers are not gonna buy bottles. Yeah. Education. They are needed for some kind of education, sir, the wine, those kind of, restaurants, definitely. Yeah. But you, they also, you need to provide the whole package It's not it's not only about teaching about wine. It's about how to store the wine, how to open the bottle, which glasses we use, which temperature to serve the wine, how to store the wine once the bottle's open. That there's so many things that people don't know about yet. If that can be done, and there are some restaurants that are doing it, it would be very interesting, and the market would grow dramatic. Yeah. I personally recently, went to an Idakaya. A very high end is a Kaya where Japanese food is mainly served. And, I I was I had a pleasure to find even some Italian fine wines in their portfolio. So I think it's definitely a new frontier for Italian wine. Yes, then, getting back to, to the perspective of Italian wine or some. And it's something that you already mentioned in your in your, in your presentation, probably. Can you just give an an example of a wine brand or category of Italian wine that had a successful strategical approach, to the Japanese market. And on the contrary, where do you think that there is still a lot of work to be done? Like, probably you already mentioned something talking about the sparkling wine, sir? Yeah. I know. I think, I mean, The the the example that I would like to use is because it's a it's a great example of a success stories is Frankota. Yeah. Which has been here for so long. I mean, they've been importing the wines for thirty or forty years. They had a very clear focus, I think, to to to get themselves into Italian restaurants at the beginning. And then visiting regularly, inviting the sommeliers, inviting retailers over to French a quarter But then what they've done the last ten or fifteen years are two very interesting things I think. One is they've they've opened an office and, I noticed this with a lot of successful regions have done this. So it's not only frontal quarter, but you have a champagne, Bordeaux, California. Just to name a few. They have representatives in Japan helping to support, with promotional educational activities. And in the case of French court, what they do, I think it's just actually maybe just a PR office, but that PR office makes sure that they that, that furniture portraits is positioned in the best light. So you see these glorious images of of of, you know, French a quarter being being been served in glamorous settings traveling to Italy. Yes. Linked to the Italian way of life of fashion. Italian way of life. And the the other thing that they've done the last couple of years is they opened the French recorder Yeah. In a very high end. Yeah. The high department store in the center of Tokyo. So if you're walking around shopping for Italian clothes, you come across a French quarter park and it's it's that it's helping to position the brand in the right place. So I think that the French quarters had put a lot of thought into this and executed some very good strategies. I I I'm not interested to to accrual about prosecco but at the moment, I I one doesn't get an impression that we know what prosecco is trying to achieve in Japan. In in maybe in England, we we know what it's with it has an image, but in in Japan, it doesn't seem to sort of have a focus and with I think the consumers, why why would they buy prosecco rather than buying, I don't know, coffee. Let's see. Yeah. As you said, there is a fascination for, for traditional, sparkling method in Japan, And one other thing that must be kept into consideration when talking about the, not so successful prosecco case in Japan is probably, that Japan is a huge market for beer. Yeah. And, so it's a call cultural thing also maybe. Right? They there's some a lot of work to be done probably to link again as, in this case, the, the prosecco to the Italian way of life of their best deal and and everything. Right? Yeah. I think that there's potential. It just needs a bit a bit more focus to to to Yeah. Definitely, there is a lot of potential. I believe then in the next years, for example, it's starting to have a good success in Japan. We have examples, because it's a novelty is a new thing, probably. Yep. Yeah. And Japanese people like these new things. And Yes. This could be the way. So Yeah. Yeah. Maybe with Zapura, you know, though. Okay. Thank you, Ravi. I think we are at the end of our session. Very interesting as always. It was a pleasure to talk with you. And, hopefully see you in a time soon for Allison. Nice to see you again. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Adi. Bye bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 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