Ep. 800 Celebrity Wines Enemy Of Terroir | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and Verona. Think you make the cut. Apply now at vin Italy international dot com. Italian Mind Podcast. A wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present A series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. So good morning, everyone. I'm, really happy and, to honor it, to introduce, Robert Joseph. One business consultant, a Italian consultant, five years, in burgundy, founder of international wine magazines, and the international wine competition, consider the the biggest, in the world biggest, the one competition, writer for, London Sand on Telegraph, over twenty five books, online. He received many, many amazing award as the best wine guide in the world, appears in, TV, radio, and he launched several, wine school around the world. And, he's also a wine producer because, he's behind of an amazing, project of over three million bottles per year. Including, Lagranwar, collection in, in one word, a great, connoisseur of wine. And, and by the counter, one of the most influential person, in the consumption of wine. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Rosa Charles. Thank you very much. And thank you, Stevie, and thank you for the organizers. It's wonderful to be back here with friends in verona. And to everyone who's actually watching. So we're talking about celebrity being the enemy of terroir, and this was a concept that came up during, a clubhouse session with Robert Camuto that, Steve Kim arranged a few months ago, in which, it was actually Robert, who came up with this idea that, celebrity wines, by which I don't mean famous wines. I don't mean Tinianello and and Susakaya. I mean wines associated with famous people wherein some way an enemy of the concept of terroir. So, I like this little slide. A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. I saw this when I was thinking about the connection between celebrity and terroir. Was Don Perignon and Lady Gaga. And some people are saying, why are LVMH and Don Perignon spending all this money on this singer actress? Well, Don Perignon is the most successful brand or most profitable brand in the world, I would say, probably And they're not stupid. They know what they're doing. They know how powerful that woman is and her reach. So just on YouTube, around half a million people have seen it, but if you go and look on Instagram elsewhere, this has huge reach And, of course, it goes through stores, it goes everywhere else. It's a very good plan. Do you? So there is a plan. I got the impression we're brothers. So the first of the recent James Bond, this was Chateau Angelous. They paid quite a lot of money to have their bottles sitting there very obviously, and they used that throughout the world, and they reckon it was money very well spent. So back to my woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, let's look at what is celebrity. So if we actually look at it, again, Rob Robert Camuto had an argument of what celebrity really means, and he had a pretty twenty first century or twentieth century concept of it. But essentially, it means someone who is famous, a famous or celebrated person. And there's a book, by the lady who you can see being quoted here, called Shore Maris called the long and strange history of of celebrity. And if we go back, we had celebrities two thousand years ago or more than two thousand years ago. And here we are in Italy, in Greece, and there are statues for some of these people. And here was one of the first people, Leonardi's of, a Rhodes who actually ran in the Olympics naked as you can see. And, he was the first Olympic champion who did twelve, won twelve races, and the most anyone's done until, I think, now. And the Emperor Charlemagne, who had the idea of reuniting or uniting Europe before the EU. Obviously, as a British, we hate him. And we have Cortain Charlemagne. And on the hill of, the Corton, there is a bit of land, which, we can actually say that is where the Charlotte, mister the Emperor Charlemagne, said you could make the best wine. He did the same thing in Germany and people say, oh, that's where Charlemagne actually recognized, the quality of the land. Julia Caesar, you know, all those coins, everything else. It was like a lot of image building by Julia Caesar. And then there was this Frenchmanman Well, Corsican, should be. There we go. So look, he even copied the headdress from Julia Caesar because he wanted to be seen as an emperor like the Roman Emperor. And his favorite wine was Chambautan, Burgundy, which he used to have drunk, which he used to drink with water. And at the time that he was, a, an exile on Elba in France, Chambautan was the number one wine in Paris. So celebrity endorsement worked, even then, by the way, Napoleon Brandy, Napoleon cognac, there is no evidence that Napoleon ever drank any cognac. This is Aldi Cat of France. And if you go to the region of Jeancon The cooperative is called the, the, the rois henriquat, they've got a wine called the rois henriquat, and the whole cooperative is named after him. So again, Royal Celebrity. And then Louis, the fourteenth, the sun king, famous for helping a wine that wasn't French. It was Tokai, which became the wine of kings, the king of wine. So this goes back a long way. And then we go on to I was I thought since I'm here, in, this region of Italy, the courtesans of Venice were the fashion trend set. It's the same was true of the courtesans of Paris, of the Royal Court, and indeed in Britain that when the king Charles the second had a mistress, Nell Guinn, people noticed what she did, and they copied that. This man is very famous in the world of, of, of fashion, Bo Bromel, who was a friend of the king in Britain, and, basically, the way he dressed influenced huge numbers of people, but that would also apply to other forms of behavior, which would have included drink and food and so on. And so you have all these other celebrities of their time, Russo, Byron, voltaire, they're all known for what they did, as well as what they wrote. But the first modern celebrity was on a French actress called Sarah Bernhardt, who was a very important actress of her day, who also performed male roles, as well as female roles, and what was interesting about her was she used the technology of the age, which included radio, and a cinema to boost her, profile, let's say. This was her, and she was among other, things. She was a mistress of the English king, king Edward the seventh. Here she was, and she was also one of the people who put her name to something called the Van Mariani. Now this is not a wine as you understand it. It was a tonic wine. It competed with things like Coca Cola in its day. It had, cocaine in it, but it was a a pick you up wine, but it was called a vat. Vinn. And among the other people who put their name to it and promoted it were the Pope, Emile Zola, Alexander Dumap. So this whole idea of famous people promoting products is not new. We're going back a long way. This is another lady who like to be, who like to be photographed lying down, rather like, Sarah Benhart, Lily Lang Tree, she's interesting. She was also the mistress of Edward the seventh, but not at the same time as far as I'm aware. But she opened a winery in California in eighteen eighty eight. And the wine is now called Guenech, where she used to make her wine. This is another celebrity Winston Churchill huge. Yes. He was our prime minister. He was our wartime leader, but he was also a celebrity in the sense that people were very aware of what he did. And Paul Rosier Champagne has a Cuve Winston Churchill named after him, and in Britain, the black line around the champagne, the white foil, memory it commemorates his, his death, in fact. And we have another celebrity. This man, you may, or may not recognize him He is on holiday recently wearing a white shirt and painting, which is not something he's ever been seen to do. If you haven't recognized him, this may help. So we have a celebrity here who became our prime minister on the top right there, he was on a TV show, becoming you've had that in Italy as well. So it's not just unique to us. And in America, this man, who was a very successful businessman, did not become president. This man did. Can you recognize these guys? Okay. Kim Kardashian, ninety five percent awareness in America. Only fifty I mean, forty nine percent really don't like or only fifty one sorry, fifty one percent disliker put it that way, but let's look at her family. Rob, ten million, Courtney, thirty five to forty five million, Kendall Jenner, forty five million. Chloe, fifty million. Caitlyn, a hundred million. By the way, my fifteen year old daughter knows all this stuff. One point two billion. Does anybody in this room know anyone in the wine business who's made a billion dollars out of wine? We all laugh at these people. They're not that stupid, but she is only two hundred and twentieth on the list of contemporary TV personalities in America. There's list and who is number eight It is Gordon Ramsey, restaurateur, who's restaurants, by the way, have sold my wine, which is very nice. And he's a very well known chef, he's a TV personality, and he has a wine. Of course, he does. He's a set of wines. There's a chardonnay on the left cost thirty dollars, and there's a cabinet on the right here that is sixty dollars. Do they taste of the place they came from? Yeah. Are they celebrity wines? Yeah. So what celebrity does is what you call social proof. It's basically and when you were at school, you hang out or everyone tried to hang out with the the cool kids. And if the cool kids came in wearing white trainers, rather than blue trainers, or whatever, you said I want the same kind of trainers as him. It's a human trait, and we all choose the tribe and the the the the set of people that we really want to emulate, and ideally they are the successful ones. Digital marketing, my friend, Polly Hammond, I think, is in the audience, and someone I've done some work with, is all about targeting your marketing at particular and your sales particular, groups of people who you know are most likely to buy your wine. Well, of course, celebrity marketing is the same thing. Because on the left here, we have Kylie minogue, the singer, huge number of fans. She's Australian, but very popular in the UK and the US and and and Australia, and a very large gay following as it happens. And her wine has done very well a million bottles in the first year, her prosecco, On the right, we have, Ian Bothham, who played cricket, which is a game that isn't particularly well known in Italy. He's not a young man. His audience for his wines is going to be a different audience to the Kylie Menogue, audience, but the same wine company is producing both of their celebrity wines. Now, sir Benhart, as I said, used several new inventions to promote herself, as I said, it was radio and, cinema in her day. Today, the modern celebrities do the same. Kylie Minogue, two point three million followers, when Kylie wants to tell you that she's got a new wine or tell the world it takes her approximately a minute. All she has to do is take out her phone and go, I have a new wine, and up to two point three million people, and all of their friends will know about it. But Kylie is a lightweight Lady Gaga, forty nine point six million. Snoope, sixty five point three. And, of course, because I couldn't resist it. Kim, Kardashian, two hundred and fifty eight million people are following her on Instagram. Now that might give you some indication of why she's worth a billion dollars. Now there are different types of celebrity wine. I've had this conversation since I've been here. John Malkovich makes weird blends of pinot and wire and cabernet sauvignon, and so on that many of my wine people think are very weird, but you have to admire Malkovich for making the kind of wine he wants to make. He's my kind of person. We now have other people like, Francis Fort Copala and Brad Pitt and, Angelina Jolie, who went and teamed up or employed people who were experts. So the Peron, the Peron family for, for Branger, Copler, paid, winemakers, marketing people, and so on to run his business, and a very successful business they've both been. Then we have celebrities with a genuine interest in the subject. Now Gerard De Pardier is a little bit of a sad character now, but some of us may remember when he was flying high as a celebrity actor or not celebrity actors as an actor who was a celebrity. And he genuinely has an interest in wine, not just the alcohol in it. He actually certainly was interested in the quality and flavor, but so also is the British TV, personality, Graham Norton, who's, serving Yomblanc from New Zealand has done incredibly well. And then we have the last people like SnoopDOG, who actually just put their name to a wine. And they're the people who tend to get a hard time from the anti celebrity wine people who think, no, no, wine has to be made by the people who own it, who love it, who ideally go out and go and pick the grapes themselves. So I'm taking a different view. If you like the celebrity, If you like Roger Federer, you're gonna buy a Roger federer tennis racket. And if you like David Beckham as a footballer, you might well buy his perfume. Does that make sense? Well, it does to people who like David Beckham or Roger federer. In any case, one of our if you look in any bookshop, they're full of celebrity autobiographies. They're also full of cookbooks, either by celebrities or by celebrity chefs. Who writes those books? You really think the ought to the the celebrities are writing those books, did anybody actually ever imagine that Donald Trump wrote the art of the deal? He never even read it most likely. So at least sixty percent of the celebrity books and autobiography is are not written by the celebrities. But actually, they're very often very well written by very good ghost writers. Would I rather read a very entertaining book written by a ghost writer, which gives me the flavor of that celebrity than a badly written boring book by the celebrity themselves? No. So the difference between now and the past is that you can become a celebrity much more quickly as Kim Kardashian showed Kim Kardashian hooked on to Paris Hilton, who was a celebrity because she was part of the Hilton family, and she looked good and did stuff, but she didn't actually produce anything she just was famous for being famous. But if anybody can become a celebrity, any bit of soil today is a terroir. You know, I'm old enough to remember when there weren't very many terroiras. Roman Conte was a terroir. Cortain Charlemagne was a terroir. But actually Macron Vireille, where I make wine in provence, that wasn't terroir. That was just places where people made wine. Today, if you put a vine into the ground anywhere in the world, I have terroir, and I am expressing it. Well, terroir is the unawareness of any wine as as, an American radical Kramer said. But the point about it, some, somewares are better than others. The fact that you can make wine somewhere doesn't necessarily make it good. And the fact that you're a celebrity doesn't mean you're interesting, or you're not gonna be interesting necessarily to everyone back to, Kim Kardashian. So can a celebrity wine taste of place back to the initial question that we were asked, is celebrity the enemy of terroir. Here are just a few, Antonio Banderas makes wine in Rivera. It's not great. But does it taste her a bara del durer? Yes, it does. Mary j Blige is making wine in friuli, or she's not making wine, but she's putting her name to the Fantino's wine. It's friuli. It tastes like good friuli wine. We've bachelli in Tuscany, James Bond Angelo, Suedid, Carol Bucey in Sicily, Brangelina in provence, does Miraval taste of provence? Yes, it does. Dolce Gabbana in Sicily. Copula in Napa with Ingaloo. Did that taste like Napa? Of course, it does. Jara Deepardieu in Contrier, working with Alain Parey, did it taste like good, Conrier? Yes, it did. Yes, it does. We've done Dolce Gabbana, I think, twice. There we go. There we are. Ernie L's in Stellenbosch in South Africa, Kyla Minogue, not just prosecco. She's Annolin provence. She's making wine or putting her name to a wine made by Howard Park down in the southwest of Australia. Does it taste like Margaret River Shartner? Yes, it does. Sam Neil in, New Zealand. Is his wine a good central otago pinot noir? Yes, it is. Graon Norton, we've done all of these people. And then, e evil, Vonabaugh, famous musician in Bulgaria, you don't it's not easy to get the name of Get Balgarian wine promoted. He does his best when he's doing his concerts. And yesterday, we did some Roccadella Mach, and I guess that Italo's Engrella, the the previous generation, actually, as a film producer, yeah, a celebrity. So we've said Kylie has done a million bottles, snoop, just in two months, a whole year's, production or production of that wine, and Mary J large, huge numbers for, for you Lee. So Basically, importantly, what celebrities do is very often they get people to drink wine who might not otherwise have been drinking that wine. People of color in America who follow Mary j Blige are drinking wine from friuli. Would they have been doing so? Otherwise, probably not. Slope dog is getting people to drink nineteen crimes. It is not wine necessarily that all of us in this room want to drink, but those guys and women who are drinking that wine might not have been drinking wine otherwise. Ten million opera albums because these three guys sang opera at the World Cup, and the opera world hated it. Because, oh, no. No. No. It's not opera, is it? Ten million albums. They turned a lot of people on to opera. Some stayed, most probably didn't, but they helped. I've got a consultancy challenge at the moment. I'm working from Moldova, which is not an easy country whose wines to promote same as Bulgaria, but the good news, which you don't know, this is your first time you'll ever hear about this. Daniel Craig is getting a vineyard in Moldova. No. That is going to make a big change. No. I'm carrying on. Bond gets people's attention, excites their emotions. All celebrities excite emotions. Princess Diana, nobody knew Princess Diana, but everybody got upset when she died. When the beatles broke up, these girls were absolutely heartbroken just because four guys stopped playing music together. And because a woman, a young woman, eighteen years old, part Romanian, part Chinese, part British, British is what matters, one at the tennis in New York, these people are really happy. That's what celebrity does. It excites emotions. Does terroir excite emotions? Okay. Wine has terroir. So there's coffee. So there's tea. So there's olive oil and so there's chocolate. I went shopping here in verona this week. This was a shelf of olive oil. It is from Europe. We're in Italy. You make olive oil. You could buy Italian olive oil in there, but this was European oil. On the left, we have English tea. Do you know where in England? We grow tea. Well, probably, like the Italian Coffee on the right, where where where can I go and visit the Italian Coffee fields in Italy? Wine professionals do care about which celebrities own, which brands. I'm contributing editor to mining as wine business international. This story, who owns Chateau Miraval, was our most clicked on, story in the last two weeks by wine professionals. We seem to care as professionals. So let's look at terroir briefly. This is the Garda doc, not a famous doc outside Italy, but it's got an in identity and so on. Outside this finitally fair, there's a poster. You may not see it does say Garda, DOC there. It's a poster. Here's another poster I photographed while I was here, in verona. Lady Blendy, it's a can of merlot and Cavanet. It doesn't say where it's from. Now what I'm gonna think in my mind is that in this room, there are gonna be people who have some strong feelings about at least one of those posters. But you've got emotions. That's what's important. Whether you hated it or you liked it, it actually made something happen inside you more than the data sheet that I put up on the terroir of Gada. So exciting emotions, emotions are what make people choose one luxury more than another, and wine is a luxury. So if anybody asks you what score your wine has had, or its price, or if it's value for money, you are getting something wrong. Because when you go into the Ferrari showroom and they and you say, how much is this Ferrari? They don't show you the door, but they know you're not somebody who's going to buy the Ferrari and the same for an Armani shirt or suit, the same for Don Perignor, the same for Latash. It's an emotional connection. So are celebrity wines good value for money? Probably not very often. Actually, are you paying extra for the celebrity to get some money? Yes. But is that part of the value for me? Yes. The Roger Federal racket has an extra value because it's got Roger Federer's name on it. There may be a better racket that is not a Roger Federal racket, but I might feel better because I've got the Roger Federal one. So aim for the heart, not the head. As an industry, we spend far too long talking about points and scores, and and the fact that we've got gravel rather than granite, and the fact that maybe we've been going for five hundred years, all that stuff, and maybe even what food it goes with. That's all meant that's all rational stuff. Actually, move me, make me feel something inside. So on the right, this is two pictures I took in New York recently. On the left are the traditional wines, nothing wrong with it. I love those wines on the left. On the right are red blends. All they say there's no grape variety. Very often, there's no region. Just as California, it says Napa. Most of my sommelier friends hate these wines. I don't necessarily choose to drink them myself, but they are selling at the same prices or higher prices than the traditional wines. Why? Because those labels are exciting the emotions, the imagination of the people who are buying them. One. Don't remember. That ladies and gentlemen was an advertisement for a wine. No vineyards, no barrels, no grapes. But it got you wondering what's going on? Who is she? Where she's going? What's the story? The wine is called eight years in the desert. It is a very big seller in the US. Not everything has to be about terroir. This is maybe the slightly shocking thing for some of the people. People are not necessarily buying wine because of terroir. They're buying it because of the grape, because of the flavor, because of all sorts of things, and that may not necessarily be a bad thing. So this is my thought at the moment. Belief that terroir is important, and I believe terroir is important, but it's a belief. It's something that I happen to believe in. My daughter does not believe that terroir is important to wine. She doesn't believe that wine is important. She's fifteen years old. That's pretty normal. Do you know what she believes in? She doesn't think we should kill animals for food. She is a very solid vegetarian, has been for a year. Now which of these two belief systems is the more important in the world? Which has the greatest validity. I'm scratching my head. I eat meat, but I have huge respect for her belief as a vegetarian. Now if I had a restaurant, would I say I only want meat eaters? Or would I say I only want vegetarians? No. I'd want a restaurant, which I say, right. I've got carnivorous options here, things for fish, fish eaters there, and things for vegetarians. That's a wine industry. We should embrace the people who want terroir, and we should embrace the people who don't and accept both of them because actually they're both giving us their money. So we have to understand that terroir is of interest to a minority of people and everybody else wants an enjoyable drink. Now I'm sorry about all of those of you who tweeted about the news about Daniel Craig. It wasn't true. But if it had being true, You'd have all been interested. The world would have been interested. So it would have helped moldova. How can I go out and get something like this to happen is what's going through my mind? Celebrities are a crutch. It's a way of actually, it's an easy shortcut way of helping your product, but so is saying I express my terawatt doesn't necessarily mean anything. So we're all gonna have to find different ways to excite emotion night, last night, I was at the event across the road that Pasqua did, and this excited my emotions. That light show is installation. So did some of the images and particularly this one on the right. I just love that image of that woman and that. But it's so transgressive. It's got nothing to do with the way we all look at wine. And it made my mind do things. And it made me think, I wanna taste that wine. So I'm gonna finish off with another celebrity, Madonna, and this is her ask me anything session from few years ago. Gerard from Dublin, what do you think has given your clear such longevity and kept you eternally relevant? Rose, Oh, I forgot to eat some more. But we'll alright. We'll put this cork in here. Not Gerard from Dublin. Patricia from Belfast, what advice would you give to your younger self knowing what you know now? Don't kiss Drake. No matter how many times, begs you too. Drake, by the way, is another singer, is a hip hop singer who, you may or may not know, but he does have a wine, like Post Malone, and if you've been listening to Heine earlier, he said Post Malone's Rose from provence, sold ten thousand bottles through Vivino in one day. So celebrities helped sell wine. But back to Madonna, does anybody watching this not wonder whose Rose it was that she was drinking? Celebrity actually works. It excites our curiosity and our imagination, but so do other things, and we need to find the other things like the stuff I showed you from Pascua that get us syncing, and that will also include labels. So thank you all very much. I think I'm on time, roughly. Are we doing quest are you coming up here to your questions, Stev? Can you say who you are for the sake of the audience of online audience, please? Great presentation, Robert. My name is Renee Sverazza. I'm speaking later today. My question is I know that you focused on celebrity and caring about terroir, but Do you think that people's aversion in the wine world to celebrity wines is not necessarily about terroir, but kind of it kind of keeping the exclusivity of wine and not as inclusive as we could possibly make the industry? I think that my problem, I'm working I'm working on a book at the moment on this. I think that we all have an idea of what we want wine to be. So I know people, Alice firing, who is who's somebody I have huge respect for believes that if wine is not made according to the natural rules, it isn't wine or shouldn't be wine or certainly, certainly some people in the natural wine world to see that. People think, oh my god. They're putting wine into a whiskey barrel, a bourbon barrel. That's disgusting. It's gross. It's it's a drink. People who like drinking bourbon like drinking wine that's been in a bourbon barrel. As far as I'm concerned, wine is like food. We have sandwiches. We have burgers. We have souffles. We have all sorts of stuff, and I hate a world in which anybody says, all food should be like souffles or all food should be like sandwiches. We should just be inclusive. And so as far as I'm concerned, we have celebrity wines, like we have celebrity perfumes, but nobody has to buy them. You can buy the other stuff. There's a lot of it out there. Again, great session. Thank you very much, Robert. I'm Elonora Schools. I'm, from Russia and, observing your presentation. I also noted that, you know, in Russia, celebrity wines don't count. So do you have any observations about how the celebrities can actually make celebrity wines in certain markets? I think it's a very, very good question, and I'm very careful because I travel around the world, and some things will work in one place. But when you say they don't count culturally, does that mean to say, I mean, yours is a country in which your president appears on quite a lot of posters and so on. Are there no conductors? Are there no ballet dancers? Are there no people who in their different way can prompt people's purchasing. Obviously, you have a problem in Russia in terms of laws against advertising and marketing of wine, which make it more difficult. But in some ways, they would make celebrity marketing even more useful because you can do it without necessarily talking about it. I don't know. I don't know you. I I I I saw a lot of wine in Russia. I'd love to know more. As far as I I'm concerned, I think people globally relate to actors, actresses, sports people, and so on. So I think there must be ways. But why and how, and maybe because wine has been siloed in some way, Do you have celebrity spirits? Do you have celebrity beers? Do you have celebrity clothes? This would be the question I would ask you. From pics. I just a quick comment. I think Russia does have a celebrity wine. Mister Putin, makes sparkling wine at his black sea winery, and he's already got it listed on state banquets, and people are copying it. So maybe it does have a celebrity wine. I think I'm not going to go there. Thank you very much, for the city. Whether it's actually promoted officially as being Vladimir Putin's wine. I'm not sure, but I think it's known to be. So that's that's another way of looking at it. You certainly do have some business people in Russia with wine interests that is that helps. Any other words? There's one more question. I have a question for you as producer by producer. Okay. So you think that, there is not a risk to disconnect totally the terrar from the wine, because, the, my mentor, okay, Jacob Motakis, that was, for my personal opinion, the best, the best wine maker in the world. And I had the fortune to stay very close to him for for many years. And he always said, don't forget that when you make a wine, the wine in the wine must be recognized character of the grape, character of the soil, the terroir, and the character of the winemaker. So that is the three important column to understand the wine. Okay. So I'm gonna look at that in two ways. Firstly, I and I I'm great. Obviously, Thakis was one of the gods, but it's not all wine. He's talking about what you find in a three star Michelin restaurant is what matters is the quality of the ingredients and what the chef did and so on. When you go and get a sandwich, when you go and get, a pizza somewhere, does everybody really care where the tomatoes came from and where the mozzarella came from and so on when you're getting a pizza? A pizza is something you eat with your hands that is made well, by the in the pizzeria, but it's a different part of the food world. So the first thing I'm gonna say is not all wine fits the Takis model, fine wine does. So that's the first point. The second thing is whether you have made your wine, pack us any of his other wines or romani Conte, the fact that a celebrity likes that wine and is attached to it does not change the product. So if James Bond likes Angelouce, whether he's paid to like Angelouce or he happens to like Angelouce, the product, the liquid in the bottle is the same. So, unfortunately, my prime minister at the moment apparently likes Tinianello. I would much prefer he didn't like Tinianello. I don't like to think about Boris Johnson and Tinianello at same time in my head. But I guess there are people in Britain who like Boris Johnson who may well be drinking tinian lower because they're from they're they're prompted to do so. Ultimately, the tinian yellow in the bottle is still tinian yellow. Thank you. Is there anyone? Do we have any time and is there any other questions? Are there any online questions? So Vanessa Green, on a lighter notice, us, from Australia, by the way, she's our Italian wine investor from Australia. You're right. And I'm dying to know what Madonna was drinking. If you find out, please let us know. I will. I'll call her. She hasn't returned any of my calls recently because she's a very busy lady, but I will give her a call later on. And height of Vanessa and whatever time of day it is in in Australia. Okay. So we have two more minutes. Any anybody else? Okay. I want to, be Robert Camucha for the moment. Go ahead. Okay. Although, Robert Camuto, I would just wanna say quickly, although I've been arguing with with what he said, I am a huge fan of his writing. He's got a new book out, but he's also he did some wonderful celebrity interviews before he got into wine. He sent me one he did with Debbie Harry of Blonde in nineteen ninety or something. He's a great writer. So he would ask, I think, something on the line of okay. The celebrity ones, great. This damned celebrities. But what does it do for the wine producers? The small wine producers? It everybody. Okay. Small to medium sized wine producers. How do they benefit from all these celebrities making rich celebrities making even more money. Let's go down to provence and go and talk to some of the small producers in provence whose wines are selling for higher prices and much more easily since Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie actually turned up there. Let's go to Frioli and see if anybody there is selling more Frioli into the US because there is a sun goddess wine that Mary Jade Blige actually made. To be honest, it is it's there's the big ship goes along. The little ships can follow in its wake, but it is up to those producers to say, how can I benefit from this rather than say, oh my god, this is an awful thing they're doing? So if my wine, and I lived in Burgundy for five or six years, if I was in the little village of Panar vergileste, which is not the most famous of Burgundy villages, which is down the road from the Cortain Charlemagne, I'd sure as hell be hooking on to the fact that my vineyard is not that far from Cortain Charlemagne in the same way that in Bordeaux, so many producers say, oh, you know, my wine is just very close to Chateau Lafite or Chateau Margot? So the sun can shine beyond one particular field at a time. Okay. With that, let's give it up for Robert Joseph and thank you very much. You guys have to please get the hell out so I can sanitize the room. Thank you very much. In fifteen minutes or a back. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, email ifm, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and break the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, teaching. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for you donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.