Ep. 873 What To Expect From Wine Online In 2022 | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vineetili International Wine and Spirits. The fifty fourth edition of Vineetili was held from the tenth to the thirteenth of April. If you missed it, don't worry, go to benitely plus dot com for on demand recordings of all the sessions from the exhibition. Talian Mind Podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm Central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Good afternoon, everyone. I have to say it's not as fulfilling, doing a zoom virtually from California when I was just in Italy on Friday in Milan and not together with you, sharing some wonderful lines, some wonderful stories. That being said, I and saying that I missed all of you, and, I'm glad to be back again this year. I'd like to walk into a a regular presentation with my jet lag and, start a conversation here. Hopefully, today, I'm gonna finish up a little early. I'd actually like to have a lot more questions since, you know, I'm not there in person. I'd like to actually make this as interactive as possible. So I'm gonna go a little faster than usual because I really wanna hear from everybody, as we go forward. So we are in another year where I'm fortunate enough to talk to you about the future. It seems to be a a pattern, a good pattern as well. I don't know about you guys, but I've had an incredibly long year, incredibly long eighteen months, to be really fair. It's been a challenge for all of us, and Fortunately, I think that we all see some hope on the horizon there. You know, I I was fortunate for travel for the first time in two years. Like I said, I was in Milan in London last week. And despite all the heavy duty paperwork, It felt like the world was coming back to life. It felt like we were starting to get to normalcy again. But, you know, as I've always said, we live in really an amazing industry. Italy itself is just stunningly beautiful, not only in the countryside and and the wines, but especially the people You're one of the most magical, cultures on the planet as it relates to loving life, loving food, loving wine. But while we've been sitting here, while we've been pumping along over the last couple of decades, the reality is that the world has changed around us. Has changed significantly decade after decade, and wine has stayed rooted in yesterday rooted in the land rooted in the seasons and rooted in the tradition of winemaking. We are annual thinkers we think on a regular basis with the seasons. We make wine once a year, and we only have one chance to do it. And then something made us change for the first time in history. We were touched by this terrible global pandemic called COVID. Which had long and lasting impacts on our industry. The first one is it really made us wake up. It made us adapt. It made us think differently about the world. It made us decide to do things for the first time. And really, the entire wine history was awake. It wasn't just consumers, but it was also wineries, wholesalers, and retailers. The entire scope of the wine industry is now online for the first time in history. I've stood on stage in front of you guys for multiple years telling you how much I believed in digital. But in all reality, I didn't actually think I'd see it in my lifetime. I didn't and I'm not an old man, not yet at least. I really didn't think I would live to see the day that we adopted online. But In every single country, including Italy, the consumers jumped ahead almost a decade in use cases, three to four years right out of the gate. But now over the last year, we would continue to accelerate and using online tools. This is no surprise. We're actually already using the online tools. And a half years ago when I was Italy, a small anecdotal story, I was asking, someone why they did not use the internet for purchasing, and they said they didn't trust it two weeks ago when I was in Milan, they said, We are all using the internet. We're learning how to sell online with a small change in just a short what a great change, I mean, in just a short amount of time. And what this means for consumers is there's a new normal. I'm not gonna read all the different details here. You'll have this slide for yourself. But the most important part is really this kind of fundamental use of digital. And as I've stood on stage in front of you guys, I said, how many of you have a smartphone, how many of you use Google, how many of you use Facebook, you know, how many of you buy online? Every one of you raised your hands for the most part. We were all digital users. We were all eating and drinking and believing in this for a long time. Now it's something that's brought into our wine industry forever. Now there have been changes, some major ones. Some of those major changes are tied to things like faster delivery or the fact that we can work from home. And as a result, you know, enjoy different services that come with the home, like watching a movie the same day it comes out in theaters at our home theater. The ability to enjoy bottles and glasses of wine while we're doing that in a different way has added that that new expression of home consumption. There's going to be lots of changes to come. These are just a few, but we know that the future is changing faster and faster for our industry when it's been hold dormant for decades. And some of this new normal includes lots of new technologies. I know Stevie Kim is a gigantic fan of clubhouse. That thing didn't exist before, you know, jumping into an online phone call. You know, group call was not something I'd ever thought of. Zooms have been around before the pandemic, and yet here they are is one of the bigger, tools in the world in creating their own platform. And I if you haven't watched a TikTok lately, it's quite addictive. And then also delivery, again, delivery tools like DoorDash two years ago, if you asked if you would deliver your restaurant to your door, it wasn't very many people that did that. And the food wasn't very good. Now major restaurants are trying to learn and adapt and understand how to make their food warm from the time they cook it, to the time it hits your door at home, major changes. And that includes wine too, by the way. But these boom has happened, you know, not just with consumers, the boom has happened with wineries. My friend, Rob McMillan, who's also presented here, has been talking about using digital, using DTC. But we've seen a huge growth in the US and around the world in e commerce. That hasn't just happened with wineries, retailers, had explosive growth, wine dot com. I think Wink is going public here in the next few months. Duck horn. Everyone is having boons in different groups of, like, online sales and wholesalers in the United States wholesalers have been very resistant to the internet. And finally, they've really adopted it with either proof from Southern Glacier or r and d and leave r and d c and lived in creating this whole new e wholesale category. And even in the UK, you're finding wholesalers selling in different new universal ways that either DTC or using digital tools to sell to retailers and restaurants. It's transformative everywhere. And what causes that transformation? What is the basis point of that? Well, it can be boiled down into three basic things. People, processes, and programs. There's a great article by Joe Fatarini. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend you go, on the buyer dot net and look up, his, man and machines article that talks about this. But everything everything starts with people. In in the audience you have right there is one of, the famous all stars, Poly Hammond, who I just recommended, as one of the wine industry leaders to a recent magazine. But what we're seeing is these people are driving new changes And the due changes are on two sides. One side is direct to consumer basic digital activities. So whether it's Justin Nolan, at Treasury or John Tramon at Constellation. And on the other side is this whole new category of e wholesale. People that are helping manage e commerce through companies like Instacart, like Vavino, like, target dot com, making gigantic changes in how they look at this virtual shelf around the world. And when they're asking the questions, they ask really two questions. Are you driving eyeballs or are you driving cases? Those are the true metrics that you can look through the world about digital. Is it driving eyeballs or cases? And processes Well, you can't run a business without good processes. And we've learned very quickly that a lot of the processes that we had built around digital were not really ready for prime time. So we had to recalibrate and re understand how we did fulfillment or customer service or how when a customer came to us and we walked them through the journey map, meaning that when they walk through the tasting door or they call this on our telephone, what do we do? How do we treat them all the way through purchase and then back again? You know, what tools do we enable them do that? That's mapping the journey. We also learned about tools that didn't work. This is a famous story to the right here, of Alder Yarrow. Famous wine blogger also on our board of advisors, going to winery and talking to their chatbot, and the chatbot is not answering for days. Many wineries learned that the tools that they had set up because they didn't have them processed and oriented to handle customers failed. And we're recalibrating and relook analyzing every one of those pieces. We're also looking at processes of wine clubs. Right? Wineclubs used to be very simply a paid sampling program, but we started to look outside the world to see what kind of wine clubs do we want to have? What do they mean? How do we enable them? What are the processes that we want? To differentiate when we have wine club. I know in Italy it's not quite as mature, but the reality of it is that even around the world in European nations when the wine club was not as avid of a a sales channel, you guys are starting to look at it. It's happening everywhere, whether it's New Zealand or Australia, whether it's England or France. People are reanalyzing direct to consumer because they found during the pandemic that those tools help them relate, interact, and engage with consumers. And then even the process, how do we talk to consumers? How do we talk to them across the ocean? You know, whether it's in the box and that the opening, that experience, whether it's text messaging, or whether it's more zooms by the way, I'm so zoomed out. Again, I wish I was with you instead of here, and doing a zoom meeting from far away. And then finally, programs. Everyone thinks that we should start with adding programs and software. Software is the last tool. Software is a shovel, essentially, and it helps you scale. And if you put a su software in too early, it helps exacerbate problems. But we're reanalyzing all the software tools to help us move forward, whether that's CRM or marketing automation. That's customer data platforms, which integrates all the different information about your customers or something called a data lake. All of these different tools are happening around us. And the good news for the wine industry is they're not new. They're actually pretty mature. They're actually pretty commoditized. So you're they're very in expensive now to go sign up for a tool. What they're not ex inexpensive about is the knowledge to use them, the knowledge deficit that we all need to capture up. Right? And the and by spending money, by the way, on all these tools, we can see growth. If you look at countries that innovate, they spend more money on R and D. If you look at companies that innovate, they spend more on R and D. And the good news, again, for the Y industry, as a result of the pandemic, is that many companies are investing infrastructure. They're spending millions and millions of dollars to do better jobs to help you as wineries do better to make the tools that you use cheaper. That's a beautiful thing, commoditizing and making it easier for you to access to expensive tools, to actually do better digital communication. And whether that's open table adding wineries to the thing or special e commerce tools, like, commerce seven that I've talked about years and years ago, or core have been adding a new restaurant tool so that people can pour glasses of wine without making the wines go bad quickly. All these different things, wine depot moving from Australia to the UK for better fulfillment for b to b. All of these things are good for the industry. Or whether it's delivering more eyeballs and cases to you, whether it's my good friend Heine who's in the stage there doing a great job or companies like, Proveen in the United States who are acting as a digital wholesaler or even my new company picks which is our job is to help connect buyers and sellers. We are all spending millions of dollars to make it easier for consumers to find wine. That's only good for you. And hopefully, a lot of them will succeed. And even the ones that don't succeed, will drive better communication of wine for consumers and build a better industry. But as I've said, we're starting from a deficit. If we're not starting from zero, we're starting from negative twenty in years. We're starting from and in the years, that's negative two hundred. Right? So the internet has moved very fast. So instead of just telling you what the future is gonna be like, let me tell you how you can do a little better and give you some tips from down south for me. So again, the future is bright for us. This is going to be the best time ever. It's also going to be not only the best time. It's going to be the hardest time as we have to learn very fast, but it will be the golden age of wine online. So I like to look from other examples. I look outside of wine whenever I do anything to try to understand how I can take understandings and tips to make my job better in the wine industry or how to make the wine industry better. In fact, much of Pixa's design not by what we think is best for the wine industry, but we've learned from other industries like Amazon dot com, Netflix, yeah, open table. How do we make a better job for you as wineries? Those are all great Silicon Valley learnings, arguably one of the best innovation centers in the world. So let's go through some twelve tips. Tip number one, we need to be obsessed with customer centricity. Everything starts with the customer. I know we wanna make the wines we wanna make. That's fine. It's okay that we do that. But how do we deliver those wines to the people that wanna drink them? How do we find those people? How do we make every part about how we connect to them about them. Right? How do we make them understand those wines in different ways? That customer centricity is the way the Silicon Valley leads everything. Tip number two. Job to be done. JTVD. It's an acronym. I know crazy. This is a very big philosophy in Silicon Valley, which is our job or a job is not to sell the pieces of the parts. Our job is to deliver an example. So people don't buy drills to own a drill. People buy drills to make a hole. People buy don't buy skate or parts own skateboard parts. People buy skateboard parts to skate and have fun and enjoy life. Right? And there's a hierarchy of all kinds of different needs that are meant to be fulfilled, whether those are functional, emotional, life changing, or adding social, you know, impact Those are all elements of jobs to be done for consumers. What makes their heart green? Right? I already watched last night at three AM because I had insomnia. Robert Joseph, let's not target their palettes. Let's target their hearts. So instead of writing tasting notes, because that's what not what consumers buy, consumers by enjoyment of the bar product, enjoyment of the beverage. In in fact, we don't deliver wine to people. We deliver joy. Let me reframe that for you. We don't deliver wine to people. We deliver joy. And happiness and camaraderie. We are the best social drink that's ever been built in the history of mankind. And our job is to connect people and times of happiness. Silicon Valley Cummings are always digital first. They start with digital because they know that's how the customers So instead of looking at digital as a project, think of it as the first touch point that a consumer is going to have with you. Think about the first thing that you build, and how do they get them to you in a real world experience? They think about data. I've told about data over and over again. I'm sure that you've seen lots of slides today with data. And we talked about bigger words like big data, you know, or data lakes. Really, you can collect small data to get insights, but learning to be data proficient to have understandings about data will fundamentally make your business better because then you understand your customer. And by understanding your customer, your customer centric. And by being customer centric, you keep them and you sell more to them. Right? Retention is the new acquisition. That's what we learned during the pandemic. Let me say that again. Retention is the new acquisition. Nail it and scale it. This is a funny little, phrase I think. So these are two, titles to a book that was made quite a few years ago. They actually made three titles. They went out to Google and they spent, two hundred dollars in advertising. They tested these three titles to see which one would be the best. So I'm gonna name the two that weren't chosen and the third that was, and you'll get a small example. So broadband and the white sand. That's a very terrible title, by the way. The millionaires chameleon, also a terrible title, but the one that succeeded was the four hour workweek by Tim Ferris. A book that many of you have probably read. If not, it's a great book. It talks about escaping the the day of working hard, which unfortunately in the States is much more our pattern. But what that says is he went out and he tested these three different books. And the one that won became the winner. So before he went out and put this title on the book, he did two hundred dollars of tests of those Google AdWords and showed them to different people so they could see which one they clicked on more. We can do that on again and again. We can test ways that we talk about our marketing. We can try different labels. We can try different flavor profiles, different people, different pitchers, and get a feedback loop, you know, and then scale. So try small, go big. We do this at pics all the time. Right now, we're testing different keywords to see what words resonate with consumers. Is it words about flavor? Is it words about style? Is it words about heart? And which words hit their nerve endings to actually get better returns on the results? Doesn't cost much to do something that great. Measure what matters. Right? Measurement's important. If we're not measuring, how are we succeeding? And also, we need to crawl, walk, run. This is a great chart. I know it'll be given to you in the deck about how you grow and think about the way that you're measuring the different parts of your business. Too many people try to run to the end. You can always start small and build upon it first. And you build on your metrics again and again to go larger and larger and from small qualitative stuff, like talking to the consumer to high volume, high data stuff to quantitative at the top and all kinds of different math equations. But know that these math equations can make your company worth more money. You know, the subscription economy has actually been around for a long time. We invented it for God six. The wine industry invented it. But since then, many other industries have adopted it and they're using mathematical ways of measuring it that are incredible, ARR churn. These math equation that I'm showing you, instead of getting a three x on your business, you can get a ten to fifteen x on your business by using just this simple math equation if you have a wine club. That's simple. Right? By using this simple math equation, you can get a higher multiple on what you measure. Crazy. Blue oceans, Rajee. Do something different than your competition. Doesn't have to be making different wine. It could be, but it could be a way you market. It could be the way you put your box out. It could be the way you follow-up with customer service. It could be the way that your website expresses yourself and tells a different story. Because the problem that we have in the lion's tree right now is we're all saying the same thing, whether we're all saying family owned, we're all saying to our, we're all saying sustainable, organic, When everyone is saying the same thing, none of us are different. So you need to move into a differentiated area of the business and say what is yours, and you can own that market. I know we are very scared of failing in the wine industry. We have one chance to make wine. But another tip in Silicon Valley is fail forward. You know, success is not a straight line. Success has lots of failures in fixing yourself, dusting yourself off and getting up again. So there is no success proven for any single winery. There's no human on the plan that can tell you exactly how to do digital right because every brand is different, every situation is different, and they have to learn and test and fail for it. If you ask Paulie in the audience to tell the exact perfect formula for your winery, just say, let's work and find it out together. And she will find it out because she will fail and succeed in measure to get to the other side. But failing forward is scary for us as a culture because we make wine. And if we fail, we lose all of that wine. We need to learn to implement that into our processes. I got bad news. It's gonna cost us money to get to the other side. And, you know, for a while, it'll feel like we're not making money. In fact, we're losing money in many ways. But by investing tomorrow, there'll be an inflection point that that insight where I will have a faster revenue growth with the same team will grow ten times faster because the magic of technology is that it allows humans to scale at an unprecedented amount. We get many, many different consumers that integrate the path. And by investing, by the way, we will be able to do better. Never expect you to invest the amount that Amazon is, which is twenty three percent of their business, but every little investment we make into tomorrow will be a foundation of better. Right? I'm not just talking about investing in production. It's about investing in knowledge. It's about investing in tools that help us scale and move forward, and they won't all work. Amazon's investments don't all work. But when they do, they go very far. It's time to bring in the experts. Look at these eight people on this screen. They are amazing CEOs and growth managers of digital companies. There's not a single person within this conference right now that will hire any of these people to make wine for you. Why? Because they know nothing about making wine. Nothing. Why would we do that? So why do we take people that know very little or nothing about digital and growth and all those and hire them to run that part? We have to pay real money and have real experts. That's going to cost more than we expect. You know, If we pay peanuts, we get monkeys as an old saying in the United States, our job is to really hire the best of the best so that we can actually grow our market, and we'll cost money for time. But if we don't bring in experts and teach them wine, but bringing wine people and teach them technology, we're going to fail again and again and again. And Silicon Valley knows that they hire experts building loyalty. Look, again, as I said, this this over the pandemic, what we learned more than anything else or his attention is actually more important than acquisition. Retention is more important than acquisition, and we need to build loyalty to have retention. So we have to consider what is the value change that we're constantly making with a consumer, with a retailer, with a restaurant that gets them to buy from us again and again. And then when I say the value change, it's not just the great magical juice that we put in the bottle. It's above and beyond that that makes them choose us over hundreds of thousands of different products, over hundreds of thousands of different producers. It's a tough world. And as I've said, it's before on stage. It is the most competitive wine market in human history, and it's going to get more competitive every day. We we need to continue to look at that. The subscription economy is perfect for retention. Learning about this is key for us. And then finally, the last thing I'll leave you with is the total cost of ownership. Once we invest in technology and in digital and in the future, it doesn't stop. It's a forever money pit, unfortunately. And the good news is If we pay it down costing like a credit card, it doesn't get out of control. Right? But if we don't keep investing in it, what we have is we end up with more and more and more debt. As an example, when you launch a website, you don't just launch a website and then come back three years later in an update. You update it all the time. Paying down that debt, but that debt doesn't just apply to the softwares that we implement. The digital programs that we do, then it it applies to the knowledge of the people that we have because if there's a knowledge that If our people don't know how to use Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, if our people don't know how to use CRM or digital ads on Google, we are behind the curve, and that debt sometimes becomes almost impossible. And we are facing that right now. And that debt is sometimes irreversible and damage. Well, and more than anyone else in the world, California, and and recently, Greece understood that. By not putting down debt we had in California upgrading our PG and E. When it went down, it burned half the state, terrible, terrible fires. But if none of these tips mean anything or it hits your nerve endings, you know, we can always lean back on my friend Gary Vaynerchuk. He doesn't always say everything right, but he this is one of his best ever statements, which is if you Don't have anything else. If you care about the customer, you will always win. And all these tools, all these things I told you are here scaffolds to help you care. But also, the last thing I will leave you with is the great awakening they have the Wind Street. Wasn't about all of the digital tools. What it was is that we realized something that everyone else has learned that the only thing that's constant is changed forever and ever while wine will remain the same and making it will adjust slowly and differently The reality is the world of how we buy it, how we see it will constantly be changing forever. And for us to succeed, we also have to learn to change because Darwinism is about our inability to change. So please continue to learn to change with me and everyone else. And I'm opening for questions now. So thank you very much. Okay. Any questions out there from the audience? I'm happy to take any. Yeah. That's an interesting question. So, we and Pix have, moved away from in our snapshots of wine away from scores because a certain segment of our consumers said very heavily that they like scores, but it was a very small cohort of the entire consumer audience. So we met with our friends at Netflix, and they said they moved away from scores, and they moved completely into meta tags. So if you go to Netflix and you highlight over a movie, you'll see, gritty drama, rom com, you know, sci fi adventure, you know, dark mystery, all of these words that help describe a snapshot. So we moved into those snapshot words, and we've been testing them on. And so the words that resonate, you know, highest actually really are texture words. In texture words that have a human expression, right, supple, you know, let me think of another one. It's it's an amazing word out there, elegant. But words that are like, they express human qualities. Are what really drives that piece. So, elegant. Though, that's where someone sees the second set of words, not because they actually drive, consumers from shoppers to buyers are words about flavor. They just feel like they need to know a little bit about what tastes And then the last words are story words. Story words where they either feel, it is re represents them. So buy pocket winemaker, sustainable organic, regenerative, old vine, or, words that represent what they feel themselves being in. Wines of barbecue, wines to impress, wines that, make you happy, wines you've never, you know, wines for, you know, of a romantic dinner. That way, they could imagine themselves in that situation. They could imagine themselves being part of that process. So, yes. Any other good questions back there? I would love someone's. Oh, good. Another question. Yeah. So it's interesting. So I think that we forget that e commerce is not the biggest channel in the world. Physical retail is, and I'm I am a gigantic e commerce believer. But fundamentally, consumers are looking at many different factors. Obviously, you know, buying wine online is tied to their availability of getting it or oftentimes for around price structures. Right? So trying to find it for the most inexpensive price or trying to find what they can't get or trying to find a situation of IWine. I want a line that will impress my boss, and I need help with it, our tool. It's also about discovery. You know, that's what the internet provides unlimited opportunities to do as Discover wines. But they also look for things like vast delivery. Trust is a big factor associated with that, seamless checkout, making it easy, easy, easy trust and speed, but I don't think we should fight with speed, by the way, because that is we are a luxury product. Our job is to provide luxury service and, you know, give a asymmetrical approach to how we deliver the wine, which they care about it not being hot, not being burned, not being broken. Also, when people search on e commerce, sometimes they're not actually looking to buy, sometimes looking for price shopping or get it locally down the street, you know, and understand more pieces about the factor. So e commerce is a pretty wide category. And I think that we forget again because we're all kind of in love with it, and it has so much release of dollars that it's not the only way people like to buy. In fact, they have many, many other ways that they look at the world, and it's just another lens. And it still needs to improve, but there's still magic in a physical place. I think you remember a few years ago when I was on stage talking about digitally native vertical brands, d n d b's. And I was telling you that these brands that launched online, like Albert shoes, like Worby Parker glasses actually we're opening up physical locations. We're actually, making it so that people could go in there, put the glasses on their face, put the shoes on their feet, and feel them. I think you'll see me a lot more of that. This this kind of blended model is the future. You know, we are not digital humans. We are a physical reality. How can we make that experience well better? I think it's the key. Yeah. There there's a new question. I only read it out loud. It says, do the words that consumers are actually differ by generational gap, older consumers who grow up blind Spectator versus millennials How did the digital that reaches all of the way? So no question. The gap between, consumers skews for ratings and reviews towards an older audience who grew up with them and understood them differently and didn't have the library of Alexandria in their pocket. Right? The iPhone is unlimited tool to find things. It's also a noisy tool to be fair. It's you can look up chardonnay right now. There we go. You can look up chardonnay right now and it has so many different things. It could be chardonnay, the grape, chardonnay, the wine, which Chardonay, Chardonay, for my wife's winery Donham. You know, and that younger crew, including myself, I'm a gen x guy. We are definitely digital natives, and we understand how to use these tools to find answers that we want also understand that certain people don't feed our needs state. We're trying to find different solutions than a simplified score. Unfortunately, because of score inflation, the the the the hundred point system has become very much smaller. It's still very relevant. It still moves cases in a super important way. Hynae's, peer based reviews, also helpful, in a different way, but also because it has such a limited subset of of reviews, it generally gamics the pace between three point seven and four point two, which is also a small center. Right? Just the way that people generally do consumer reviews, you find the same thing applies on Amazon scores. Also limiting helpful. It doesn't really give you the the full answer. I think people are looking for different ways to understand their buying decisions. Those were great questions, by the way, everyone. Thank you so much. Well, if you guys want, so I think you guys should go, take a peek at Pick style wine and, tell us how we can do better. We just launched openly in in Milan last Friday. And, this is the worst it's ever gonna look like. It's only gonna get better from here. And if you're a winery, it's free to list. If you're a retailer, it's free to list. Just come out reach out to us. We're happy to to help out. We really wanna connect buyers and sellers and make a new more democratized wine world. Okay. With that, I think that, no more questions. Thank you so much. I hope everyone has an amazing rest of your wine to wine. Next year, I'll see you in person. And, hopefully, we'll share a glass of wine together. Okay? Thank you so much. Cheers. Thanks for listening to this episode. Of the Italian wine podcast brought to you by the Italy international wine and spirits exhibition, the biggest drinks trade fair in the world. 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