Ep. 965 Understanding Fine Wine Consumers | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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For more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. I'm just going to introduce Valentina or Joel us. Of course, She is not only the the owner of Arjolis winery of Sardania, which we're very much looking forward to coming, by the way, with the in November, the the with the ambassadors. Showing, are you coming? No. You can't come. She's working for another company now. So Okay. Yes. I'm not they're not letting her go. Okay. This is what happens. You see, you think things are bad working for me, but then you go to another company and you're not as free as you think you are. Anyways, the whole point is, Valentin, Arjolis will be moderating this session of Argentina Arjealous, of course, is also the president of the grand cru, which comprises of eighty. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Eighty eighty, fine. Wine, winery. So I think this fits pretty well. You're familiar with with the topic that Pauline will be speaking to. So let's get started. I don't wanna waste any more time. Okay? Okay. Hello everybody. I saw Pauline. I left me to introduce points before the presentation. Probably was born, and grow up in the wine growing region and and wine growing family too in, in Burgundy. But she decided to move on to change the slide. And, starting working in the market research department in Burgundy, and then in the French Embassy, And then she decided to move to London and to develop the concept of, fine minds, for fine wines, and finally, at the end, the creation of Army Global. She's also a mother She's very important. She have two beautiful two beautiful girls. And also it's it's but it's she's she's still studying. No? She you don't stop studying. Never. And, for a master of wine, but also she's playing ultimate threes b. I don't understand what is it. That's a conversation. We can do that after the the the meeting. But it's the it's it's the work sports balanced life. And when you work in wine and you eat and you drink, you have to compensate cholesterol. Well, thank you so much, Valentina and and Stevie for that for that introduction, and it's it's great to be back here. And let's dive Royce in into the topic of suspending the the fine wine consumers. Before I do that, if I manage this, yeah, just just to introduce you a bit more to Renee Global and what we do. So Arini Global is a research institute dedicated to fine wine. And why? Because uncertainty and change didn't start with COVID nineteen, like, for a few years now, the world's been complex to understand, complicated to understand. And basically, we take a funnel approach, like, we try to understand the world we're living in, how those forces have changed are likely to impact fine wine in the future and what we can do about it. So we have six we study. We follow six forces have changed. The first one is what we call changing society, or the the the fine wine evolving social framework. So how do people relate to fine wine? How do they relate with food? Where are they living, how are they living, how they understand their lives, and etcetera. So it's more linked to sociology and anthropology. Then we study the impact of the digital economy and technology on the on the on the future of Findeline access to market. So that's all the research that we do with linked to geopolitics, transport, logistics, sustainability. So sustainability, you've heard about it today. We had a great conversation this morning on sustainability as well. But we are going to study both the environmental change and the social change around fine wine production and distribution. And usually financial sustainability is the third class of sustainability. We took it out. We wanted to make money, one of the six main forces of change, because I personally believe that we're not talking off about money in the wine world and about business model and being financially sustainable for the future. And the last forces of change that we're going to go a bit deeper in today is the the fine wine consumer. So how are they changing? Where do they live? What do they expect from, fine wine? What are they buying? How are they buying? Have they you know, patterns of behave, behavioral patterns have changed over COVID and and and all of that. So the way that we work, we do traditional market research study, but we also do podcast article. We've got a big publication program. And we also work as a think tank. So we also chose to have a collective approach to all those changes and to all those big questions. So we we ask questions and then we curate. We gather experts from both the wine world and outside of the wine world as well from ambassadors to, you know, do youpolitik leaders, to the head of the London Stock Exchange, to all of those great people to come in and also sing together with us about the future of fine wine. So that's the study that I'm going to present today. It's the second edition of the study that we are doing in partnership with Maestraza, who's a Negosur in the place of the Bordeaux, and whose main question was we don't actually know who the fine wine consumers are. We need to understand who they are, where they are, how they behave, And it's, somehow, it's user generated because we've done the first study in twenty nineteen. We presented it in a couple of places, and then people came back with feedback about what they would like to know, the type of information that was missing in our study, And so we've done the second edition like this with that focus as well, trying to include a lot a lot of extra questions. So if it's eighty four pages long, what I'm going to present today, it's really a snapshot. And if you ever wanted to access the full study, a Renee is a member organization. So you can become a member, get access to all the publications that we do. There's loads of free stuff on the website already, and you can also access some of the mini sync think tank session that we do. So first, when we talk about fine wine and the fine wine consumer, the first thing that we had to do is actually to define fine wine. And that was the starting point of Verini four years ago, because why what on earth are we talking about when we're talking about fine wine? And how can we study the consumer if we don't know what Finewine is. So we first ask the trade, and it's been an ongoing project, which is called the Define Finewine Project. You can find the white paper online for free. It's the third edition I'm working on the fourth. And we asked two hundred members of the trade around the world, what they thought were on fine wine, what it was. And we came up with a collective definition that I'm sure is going to change through time, but at that moment in time, that's the definition that we came up with. Fine wine needing those four dimension to be considered fine. And if you look at it, so a fine wine is complex balanced with the potential to age, That's the first pillar. That's the first dimension. For those of you that are familiar with a blick system of the WSCT, so it's balanced, length, intensity, complexity, age ability. So it's the more objective dimension of fine wine as much as we can be objective in wine. Then the second one, it's a wine that provokes emotion and wonders in the one drinking it. So often people differentiate a good wine with a great wine in the capacity of the great wine to provoke emotion and to stop time. So it was nineteen seventy eight, and my granddad opened that bottle of salt, and the fire was cracking, and we, you know, we were having that kind of food at that. So people remember exactly the taste of the wine even twenty years later. And while reflecting the expression of truth intended by its maker, I like that part because fine wine doesn't happen by mistake. There's an intent. There's, the intention of a winemaker to actually do the best that he or she can do in a given environment and what he or she thinks or interpret as the best that they can do as the truth about what being fine mean. So there's really a relationship between the maker and the wine. And the last part, so the fourth pillar, it is environmentally socially and financially sustainable. That's the part that we've, just added in the third edition. We didn't had that two years ago in the first definition of fine wine. And then when we did the second round of interviews, that was really a dimension through the trade, maybe I won't have the time to talk about that dimension with a consumer, but at least with the trade, sustainability is really important, and and defining how the traditional gatekeepers in the wine world they're seeing also find wine in the future. Just to give you a bit of a topic of conversation, and we can discuss that later with the glass of wine, but just to give you a bit of perspective, so this gentleman is peter Juliano, he's the head of the specialty coffee association. And we had that conversation about what the hell is specialty coffee. And five years ago, they had a definition about specialty coffee, like the premium coffee that was very close to hours. That was about quality of the green beans, the quality of the roasting process, the quality of all that, they had a, an, an, a aroma wheels that they get inspiration from the wine world as well, and, and, and, and the green coffee had to taste this and this and that. Then five years ago, they say, Now we're going to change that. We're gonna do an, you know, a totally different approach to that. And specialty coffee is whatever the consumer think is special. So the first thing that I like to notice is that so we go to, the coffee specialty as obligation that has a hundred percent consumer centric kind of definition and our definition, even if, you know, the the consumer is only here because we need someone to drink the wine. So it's, like, kind of to be a principle in how we interact with the consumer one, which is just needed to put the product in light and the one. So we can discuss that later with the class appointed to it for conversation about if it's good, if it's better, if it's less good. Anyway. So when we decided to approach that, that year study with a bit more quantitative data, and we wanted to understand if we could segment the fine wine market and the fine wine consumer, when we went into, again, quantitative data, we had to put a price on fine wine. So as you've seen in our collective definition, there's no notion of price. It's not a fine wine. It's expensive and expensive is a hundred and fifty euro bottle. But when we had to measure things, we couldn't compare pairing oranges. So we took that three tier off price, which is based on laplace de Bordeaux price. So it's a very border biased definition price of fine wine, but we had it to start it somewhere to measure the market. And when you look at this, you see the first thing that you see is that the price point in fine wine, although in the most expensive bracket of wine in general, are still very, very diverse. And from someone that will going to buy a bottle that's forty pounds or forty euro forty year old bottle and someone that's going to buy a eight hundred bottle of wine on a regular level. We might not talk to the same consumers, or are we going to talk to the same consumers? That that was going to be one question. So we also had two different methodology. We had a quantitative approach with wine intelligence where we studied four main market, which is the US, the UK, China, and, Hong Kong. And, also, we we get our qualitative approach with high net worth individuals because they unlike to respond to your questionnaire. So we have a program of twenty interviews a year where we meet them, and we try to understand how they engage with wine. And the the question was do they interact the same way as normal consumer behind bracket. So when I'm quoting wine intelligence data that mainly refers to peoples that engage with the first tier of wine, I'm not saying that they're not engaging with the other tier, but peoples that normally answer your questionnaire, I'm likely to. Answer to that category. So we wanted to know how big the market is, what's the size of the market. And so in the in the four countries that we actually studied, so what wine intelligence did is that they took the percentage of wine buyers And within the percentage of wine buyers, we wanted to understand how many are actually buying fine wine. So we've determined a minimum price, which is a consumer facing price that was seventy five dollars in the US, fifty in the UK. And five hundred Hong Kong dollars or RMB in in China. And if they didn't buy us that price over that price points that they couldn't continue with the study, and so within the fine wine buyers within sorry. Within the wine buyers in the US, which is one out of three adults, if my memory serves me well. Seven percent of them buy wine that are over seventy five dollars. And so that's I think, again, but I'm sorry, because I don't have my notes with me, but it's one out of twenty adults. It's two percent of the global US population and it's seven percent of the of the wine buyers. And that's the same process with the UK. The numbers with Hong Kong and China are really, really higher. Because the base for wine buyers is the sample is smaller because wine intelligence only study, people that lives in urban center. So I think it's the first two tiers and people that buy imported wines. So it's not the whole Chinese population. It's not the whole wine buyers in China. It's already a smaller category and within that category. How many of them are buying fine wine, and that's also why the percentage are higher. Then we wanted to know. So we have our minimum determined price. Are they buying cheaper wines? Are they buying more expensive wines for each country? We determined a segmentation of the price, and we wanted to understand if they were going to buy higher or or or cheaper. And again, in China, it's, in Asia, it's a bit different with the numbers because, again, the sample size is a bit different. But the answer is, yes, people that buy seventy five dollars in the US, people that buy fifty pounds wine in the UK. They're all also buying most of them are buying cheaper wines up to, the the first category, which is ten pounds and under, and and they're also buying above the price. So They're not exclusively buying expensive stuff. Then we asked them what they thought about Fine wine because we had our own trade definition, and we wanted to understand if the consumers were thinking the same about Fine wine. And how do they perceive Fine wine? What are the attributes that was important to them in order to be qualified a wine as fine. And what's interesting is we've got three different sets of results. They are the ones that are true across the board, which is the cap the capacity of a wine to age. Which doesn't mean that you can't drink in Tjang. I had a question about, you know, a Sirtico or fiano, Yavalino, which are, like, white wines that are beautiful, young. It doesn't and people usually drink Yjang. It doesn't mean that they can age. It's not because people choose to drink them young, but they can't age. It's a different thing. But that's across the board. Fine wine has to go through time. And and the role of critics is also important across the board to score from critics, and the notes from critics are also very, very important. So that's that's east and west the same. Then we've got a difference between west and east, where in the in the west, in the UK, in the US, the notion of obesity and authenticity is more important and and the complexity of taste is also very important. So it's more related to how the wine tastes. And then in Asia, we see that the notion of scarcity and rarity is a bit more important. And then finally, where all everyone also agrees is on the attributes that are not important and not considered important for a consumer in order to determine if the wine is fine or not, which is, the price. So we try to measure if the wine needed to be expensive for consumer to actually consider it fine. And that's always we we measure sixty seventeen attributes, and it's always within the bottom three. Consumers don't really think of wine as, you know, expensive being parts of the definition. And also the capacities to for the wine to tell a story, we were trying to measure I don't know if you know your Johnson quotes about a fine wine is the wine worth talking about. So we wanted to measure the resonance of storytelling, and it's also something. So, maybe we didn't ask the quest question correctly or but people didn't really resonate with that story. You do wine doesn't need to have story to be considered fine. Sorry. That was the conclusion. And then the last one is sustainability. And, at the moment, fine wine consumers do not think that a wine needs be sustainable to be fine or that the wine can be cannot be fine if it's not sustainable if it's not if it's more on that way around. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available from mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps. Our books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged, the jumbo shrimp guide to Italian wine, Senja Vazzy Lambrusco and other stories, and much, much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. Then we ask them about semantic association and what the type of wording that they associate. I'm gonna go a bit quicker with those numbers because you will have access to the presentation if we want if you want to go back to. And I wanted to talk to you a bit more about Italian wines as well and how how they fit in the picture. But but long story short, the attributes and the words that they choose to describe fine wine are very positive and engaging. You know, no one is saying it's elitist, something that it's not for me or stuff like that. So the the the all associate words that are quite positive. So that's one of the slides that I wanted to ask to present to you because we want to also to understand what they buy. So what in terms of origin, what where this fine wine came from. And I think that's something that's not going to be a surprise for all of you is is the big trends that we see and that we've seen accelerated during COVID is the diversity of origin. I think Bordeaux was ninety percent of the secondary market. Fifteen years ago, it's forty two percent. It was forty two percent in twenty twenty. So people are still buying Bordeaux. People are still, you know, buying border to put in the cellar, and it's still considered a a main fine wine in across the board. But we see more and more other origins coming up. And Italy's been one of those origin that's really rise during COVID and has been bought in a in a bigger proportion during COVID than than the rest of the world. And when you speak to collectors or high net worth individuals, they're super excited about that diversification. They're super excited about having some other stuff to try maybe not to invest in yet, but at least Dubai to drink, sometimes even to collect, because there's a difference between collectability and invest disability. That's the word. But, yeah, they're very they're very excited about having more origin to pick from and to choose from. So I'm usually ask what's where's the next origin of of fine wine. So you know, can Sardinia be the next fine wine destination and origin. And when you talk to James Miles and LiveVax, he explains quite clearly that to be at least collectible, and appearing in the secondary market, a wine region needs three things. You need an exports market because fine wine. The status of fine wine of scarcity or rarity is not going to be given to you by your local market. You're not scarce. You're not rare. You, you know, you're just next door. You're not a luxury kind of association for your local market. So, you know, Bordeaux wouldn't be Bordeaux with the British, burgundy, wouldn't be burgundy without, you know, China. We all we all need an export market to give us the fine line status Then the second thing is a very clear hierarchy of quality. So people need to understand very quickly why they pay a hundred percent more, you know, for why they pay five euro for a wine from that region, but why they pay? Also two hundred euros from the wine from the same engine. And the last thing is they need, a very long history of quality, and it's consistency through time. So, you know, you can't be a fine wine overnight. It it goes or a fine wine region overnight, it goes it goes with time and consistency. You'll you can dig in a bit more about the occasion of fine wine consumption. Why are people buying fine wine for? Well for special events and celebration, but also as a treat to themselves. So they use it as a social, medium, but they also use it in the in the privacy of their home. And, of course, they've been doing this a lot over the last two years. And that's also why sometimes they even change. So we had this very it's it's anecdotal, but we had so many people in Asia telling us that, like, in the freedom of their home without the the peer pressure of bringing this or that bottle of wine, they could actually explore. For example, with Italian wines, because, you know, is it considered cheap as an border usually? So in in my house, I can actually drink that, because it's very good quality, and I don't risk not not being not having those social status that I need to have when I go out. Then we ask them about the selection criteria. So how do they select wine? What's the decision tree to buy wine? And it's interesting. I'm just going to talk about the vintage because again, the notion of time is really important for fine wine, and it's also really important for fine wine drinkers and buyers. So they have a very, most of them are so knowledgeable because they know vintage by heart, they know the quality of a vintage, and they understand price variation according to vintage, most of the time. And and so they will, like, vintageisky, and for regions that have a shorter history with fine wine or have maybe less vintage variation. That's something they will have to work up with as well. The relationship with vintage and and the fine wine consumer. And then very quickly. I just wanted to focus really quickly on the high net worth individuals. So those people that we don't interview through questionnaires, but we do face to face interview with really trying to understand. So they're around the world. They they all age, all gender, because also that's something that is in mention about the the consumer before is the gender where it's male dominated in the US and the UK. So seventy percent of those drinkers are male, thirty percent at Gmail. In Asia, it's fifty fifty. When we were trying to segment, there's really a difference between the West and East about who's buying fine line. So our high net worth individuals, what we actually see is that, of course, they demand to be seen as individuals, but they have the means to actually be treated as individual and and, very tailored experience and approach. But what's interesting is a move from demographics, to intent. So I see more common point about the motivation in buying fine wine the common point in how they behave, depending on their age, depending on their gender, or depending on where they are based internationally. It's really depending on the type of relationship they've got with wine that's going to influence their their fine wine buying pattern and behavior. And they've got they all share similar characteristic across the board. So usually, so far, they they they are peoples that are highly, highly curious. They keep on learning all the time. They are super price aware They are international. They've got four house with adapted buying passengers and all those house, and still men dominated about from some parts of Asia. Well, it's kind of fifty fifty with women. And those are the four segmentation of collectors that we see. What we call status seeking is that people that are interested in, you know, showing themselves with a bottle of fine wine to demonstrate status. The cat some of them are passionate. Deep diver. They know so much. They actually know more than the trade now, and they've got quite an impact on some collectors' market. So those are another category of consumer. Then we have the affluent, which are also called the Just rich, people buying expensive wine just because they have more money, but they're not particularly more engaged with the product. They're buying the same way that I would buy a twenty euro bottle of wine, and that my mom would buy a five euro bottle of wine. It's just we don't have the same financial capacity. And then the last one is the collector drinker. So people that collect people that buy to collect drink and sometimes invest a bit on the side as well. And to me, it's more interesting to look at the fine wine consumer through those profiles and through any kind of demographics. So that's that's a podcast that we've done on inside the mind of of the collector. If you want to hear a bit more how how collectors work and how they think in the head, you can access that on on the website. And I just wanted to finish on that. So, basically, to conclude that very brief presentation, of two years of work. But, the fine wine consumers have a variety of consumer profile, and there's a diversity of audio and say there's no one fine wine consumer, as I'm sure you can have guests. They all are highly engaged with a product and they associate fine wine with positive attributes and desirable traits. So it's kind of positive for the fine wine world at the moment. It's highly regarded as a category And the diversification of style and origin that we are seeing is positively seen by consumers in trade. So it's, again, quite positive. And high net worth individuals have more money and they've used fine wine to invest and to drink more. So, yeah, so this this is the good side of the thing. This is actually fine wine is in a good place at the moment. If you want to read that latest publication, which is called a year in conversation, There are some sources of worry. Like, not everything is pink, but I don't have the time to present what's not pink in the fine wine world. But you can also read that it's it's accessible for free, on on our website if you want to understand forces of change that might change that very bright picture that I've painted today. Thank you, Pauline. I spent all my day listening with you with you about this very important topic. However, the first question, how the pandemic influence the perception of, fine wine in the market at the per perception of consumer of fine wines? Well, again, you will have to define a bit more the market and then the the segment of of fine wine consumer, but basically generally speaking, the the pandemic has been good for wine drinking. At least people have been buying quite a lot. At least in the UK and the US, which are the two markets, which I'm the most familiar with in terms of hard data. People have seen an increase in either the the cheaper, parts of the portfolio or the most expensive ones. So people have started not only drinking what they had in their cellar, but also buying differently because they were drinking differently. We had consumers that tell us we've bought more champagne because now I'm not work I'm not drinking with my work colleague. I'm drinking with my wife and my wife, night, sparkling. Or we had collectors that also say Well, we didn't really touch the border this year, but we we bought more Italian wines because we think they're more ready to drink quicker. So instead of, you know, drinking left feet in the tour, the drunk, sassy cayenne, ornidayan, all those great Italian wines. They also sometimes try. They were in the comfort of their place, so they could try a Sierra from Greece. Again, it really depends on what the intent was with wine and the type of relationship they had with the merchants and the supplier, but that that's the trend that I've been seeing. Also because we have more more time at disposal to enjoy life and then enjoy with wine. Someone, some question for Pauline? Felicia. Pauline, do you have any insights into the ways that European collectors are different from the English speaking world in Asia. So how are the European collectors based in Europe? Are different from the age the English speaking based in Asia? Okay. So Sotheby's just opened up in France. So, do you think the Europeans are behaving like the rest of the world? Or I I realized this isn't got nothing to do with the research you've presented. So No. I'm yeah. So I don't know the value of my end, so it might just be my own thoughts. I think I think they are there's And maybe you can actually link that to people in Europe not relying on European on American and Asian tourists, for example. The the data that was just presented before on tourism, and that's also what we've been hearing. Is that everyone thought the European winery tourism was going to collapse because normally European people don't spend money on tourism. They actually did this year, and loads of very premium winery have made a reasonable amount of money just with European Tory So so maybe that would be that. I think maybe the the wine the world of fine wine investment has, you know, overseen, European collectors because they weren't too focused on American and Asia, and now they've realized it. But there's just a maybe I don't know. That would be one of my guests. Have you, done any study into the correlation between fine wine markets and financial markets? So that was one of those things, because again, and I wish I had more time to explain the different. To me, there's really, a difference between collectors and investors, and that's sometimes something that we mix in the fine wine world because they can be the same person, but the investors, they can also be not relate. They cannot be collectors. I mean, investors can be people that have that don't really care about wine and are never going to drink the bottles. And when we look at what investors invest in, that that's that's really interesting to see, how, you know, after twenty seven, that change also the the amount of wine that was bought for investment. And actually looking at the different results of wine as an investment product has been really good this year. It's been better than gold if I am if I believe some of the It's it's now the the most, investment for you. It's better than swag is silver wine, art, and gold. Yeah. Versus. Yeah. So have you, but have you seen any direct correlation? Because, like, I only know this in, in layman's terms having watched the markets. Yeah. We're usually, The auction markets are usually three to six months ahead of financial markets in the US. Is that similar? Do you find So I I haven't I'm I'm actually looking into it in there because I also want to understand the currency market and how the currency market affect fine line investment But I'm I'm looking into this now. I don't have, exact answer. I'll I'll touch base with you in a couple of months. That would be an interesting conversation. Pauline, Dave Parker, by the way, and I enjoyed your speech very much. Regarding the the three main generations as we view them in the US anyway, baby boomers, gen x, and millennials, do you see any difference in adoption speed or characteristics in terms of what they're looking for? A particular age. What's interesting is, again, that will be different from each of the market that we study. But for example, apparently in the US, wine as a category is not doing so well with younger people, millennials, in particular. But fine wine is So that's really where it's interesting to study wine and fine wine differently because it doesn't have the same exact audience when it comes to this. So that's that's one of the things wine intelligence has seen is that I think And again, top of my mind, forty five percent of the consumer that they interviewed, that actually buying wines that are over seventy five dollars and above were between thirty five and fifty four. So it's quite a very important category for fine wine as well. If that's the answer to your question, I hope that's your answer to your question. But that would be different in the UK, and that would be different in Asia as well. So again, each each market will have sensible difference. But I am not particularly concerned. Well, I'm not particularly I'm always concerned, but, I don't see, consumers, young consumers deserting the fine wine space as much as they deserve the wine space if they answer your question. Yes. It does. Thank you. Any other questions? Hi, Liz. This is Yao. So I want to ask a question regarding to, like, how do they spend one consumers purchase their one? Do have datas on to channels. They're buying their wines from. Where are they buying their wine from? Yes. So again, the the the data from wine intelligence is about people that buy their wine in their own countries. Is that your question? No. Like, where, like, for example, they go to the consultant or, like, they Oh, yeah. So it's different on any country, and that's also part of the of the study. We've studied this. And I'm sorry because I I'm not gonna quote data because I I don't I'm too afraid of being wrong. But, yeah, we've studied where they actually access fine wine from. And every market has a specificity. Every market has a form of fine wine merchants. I'm going to be very proficient and use that term. And and usually there's a lot of fine wine consumers are looking for a personal relationship and the equivalent of fine wine merchant that is slightly different in Asia is slightly different in the US. They play a very important role in diff in defining the consumer's palette and defining the consumer's access. And one of the things that we've seen through the pandemic is that the relationship between fine wine merchants and the consumers has tightened up, because they were still looking for it it's it was kinda, like, kind of balanced nearly opposed relation, like, they wanted technology because they wanted to be able to buy an online very quickly, but they also wanted to have the personal touch and to have the equivalent of their fine wine merchants, somebody that they know and they trust. Because it takes quite a lot of time to develop knowledge about wine or actually to know what to buy. And they actually the role of humans in in influencing what people buy is really important. Across the market. Yeah. Takes different shape and form, but very important. Thank you. Okay. Very good. A round of applause for Pauline Victor in Valentina Jolas. 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