Ep. 1917 Wine & Spirits tasters reveal their method  | wine2wine Business Forum 2023

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at Italian One podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pods. Official media partner, the Italian One podcast is delighted to present a series of interviews and highlights from the twenty twenty three one to one business form, featuring Italian wine producers and bringing together some of the most influential voices in the sector to discuss the hottest top fix facing the industry today. Don't forget to tune in every Thursday at three PM, or visit the Italian wine podcast dot com for more information. This is Francesco Minetti. This is called the welcome tasting room. And he's the boss of welcome. So he's just going to kick off this tasting room. Thank you, everyone. Good morning, everyone. I'm very honored to be here today. And, we are welcome. We are strategic communication agency, specialize in a international promotion of wine. And, so it's, great honor to to sponsor this distancing room. This is a some kind of experiment, I would say. Because it's the first time that had, at wine to wine, great magazines, mainly from from the US actually, try to explain what is the method, what is the philosophy, and what is the the scoring process. So today we are starting with one spirits. The tasting session will be chaired by Stephanie Johnson. Hello? And, they are gonna taste with you, three wines, completely blind. So it's gonna be, I think an interest experiment also to, get more awareness and knowledge about this holy grail of the, one communication, the sort of scoring system and the ratings. So, enjoy enjoy the tasting, and Stephanie, please. Thank you. Thank you for coming, everybody. It's a nice way to start out wine to wine with a little bit of wine. Just a little bit first about me. I started out in book publishing. I had a whole other career before I got into wine. And then I did the WSET. Program all the way through diploma and then started at wine and spirits in two thousand thirteen and became the Italian wine editor in two thousand sixteen. And since then, I've worked exclusively in Italian wines. At wine and spirits, this is us. Skip on magazines. I don't know if you guys have seen it. We taste everything blind, and in this tasting today, wanted to kinda give you a a little peek under the hood of how we do our tasting panels and how we talk about wine in those panels and how which wines get through them and then how they get to the ultimate, which is getting scored and getting into the magazine, because not all of the wines that we are sent actually get reviewed and in the magazine. So, what you have in front of you just to start with is three at Narasso wines. Okay? They're numbered one two, and I think on your table, it says water, but it's not. It's the third wine. Okay. So just remember that, and it's it your table goes one, two, three in the front. Okay? And one and two are twenty twenty at Nurosso. Number three is twenty nineteen. Okay. Usually, at the magazine, we would try to taste all the same vintages, but we have three two vintages in this one. Just a little bit about wine and spirits, we started in nineteen eighty two. Joshua Green is our publisher. He was then. He still is now. He was the founder. We are independently owned. We are not part of any corporate entity. We do four print issues a year. Winter spring summer fall, and we taste about eleven thousand wines a year. We have a a staff of, critics that kind of cover regional areas. And then we, have a robust website as well, where our reviews are posted in a lot of our content. And we do we still believe in long form journalism. So we do a lot of feature articles, on different regions and different aspects of wine. Really probably one one of the most key things to keep in mind about wine and spirits is that we are our our primary audience is the trade, wine trade. Okay? Sommeliers, wine buyers, importers, we, we have developed inter it it it it kind of determines our content, but also our content determines our audience. Okay? So our approach is really kind of geared towards people in the trade, and then about seventy five percent of our readers are in the trade in some way. And then the rest, the consumers tend to be people who are a little bit have a little a good amount of wine knowledge. It's not just your average consumer. So that that is who we're talking to. And that really, as I said, makes a difference in how we approach our content. For example, in this spring issue every year, we do, what's called the restaurant issue, where we focus a lot on restaurants and have a dialogue with sommeliers all around the country about their wine lists, what they're selling, what trends they're seeing. And so we have deep connections within that community all around the country. We involve the wine trade in our tastings. So in our tasting panels, this is why we have my two colleagues here, who are sommeliers from the United States. They sit in on panels, blind panels, and they taste with us. And part of that is to just keep keep in our heads, what is relevant to our audience? What wines are relevant to to the people that who would ultimately buy them? And, of course, as you know, they're the gatekeepers. Right? They are the ones that are you know, kind of setting the tone and other people look to them to say, you know, they're taste makers. Right? We have what we it's it's a two step process, really, that has developed over decades, really, in terms of the way we taste wines. As I said, everything is blind. We have a staff of a tasting director and and tasting interns who prepare everything, so we never see the bottles. So I never know what labels look like. And the reason for this is when when Joshua Green started the magazine back in nineteen eighty two, he knew he was gonna have to take advertising to to make a go of it. But he needed to figure out a way that this could really be unbiased presentation of product reviews. Right? So the way we do it is Step one is a critic, like myself, would lead a tasting panel with a number of sommeliers, two or more, usually. And we sit and we taste maybe usually about thirty to thirty five wines at a time, all similar from similar appylation, vintages, and we taste blind, we go around, and we vote. Would you recommend this wine or would you not? And they their the re the way that they decide that is, you know, basically, within the context of what you know about Aetna rosso twenty twenty or twenty nineteen, would you recommend this wine to someone, a friend, a colleague, and would you drink it with them? Because we don't want people just recommending wines because they think other people might like that, but it I really don't think it's that good. That's step one. The wines that then pass, the first cut, basically, I go back immediately and retaste, again, blind, the same day, and then those are the wines that that pass, and I write my notes. And then after I have scored and written a note, I get the key sheet that tells me what the wines were. And then I might do a little more research to to fill out the note. Okay? So the scores are really our it's a it's a sign of our level of enthusiasm for a wine. Okay? It's this is not a scientific process. We we we actually specifically ask the Psalms not to use some kind of, you know, you know, court of sommelier grid or something. That we're really trying to get a sense from them of would they recommend the swine and in what context? Okay. So what I'm gonna just introduce our panelists, and then we're gonna go through and you guys should start tasting the wines, by the way, so that, you know, when we get to the portion, which we're getting too quickly, you can kind of have those questions in your mind would you recommend these wines and in what context? And then and then kind of a level of enthusiasm also, which is really what the score means. So this, to my right here, is Celia Ericson, She is, originally from Atlanta. She's the daughter of two chefs. She went to Cornell University in upstate, New York and did a hospitality degree. And then she went through a wine program in Napa. Affiliated with the culinary Institute of America. She's been in New York for about ten years, and she's currently the wine director for the delicious hospitality group, which includes five different restaurants within the, the metro area of New York. And then to her right is Catherine Hooper. Catherine grew up in Chicago. She went to the University of Minnesota, which is where I'm from. And she moved to New York to become a filmmaker. But fell in love with wine while she was working at Italy. And she is now the wine director at a restaurant called one fifth, and has been there for about a year and a half. So what we're gonna do is if everybody has tasted the wines, We we tasted them prior to to sitting down here so that we wouldn't have to do it now. And just so you know, none of us have seen the wines. We don't know what they are, and no one else is gonna know. Okay? And we really want to keep this blind and and completely, you know, we want we want people to feel com comfortable saying what they really feel about the wine. Without feeling like they have some kind of, you know, it it it could be embarrassing if they run into the producer. So we really want to keep that, you know, blind as possible. And so And that's what we look for in in our panels, is just a real honest reaction from the psalms. And you'd be surprised sometimes when we reveal the wines, people thought they They had a certain impression about a producer, and and it's very different after they find out after they've tasted it blind. Okay. So what I'm gonna do is and this is what we would do in our panels. I would go around and I would say on a first round, yes or no, would you recommend or would you not within a within a flight of the wines? And then once we've each voted, then we talk about the ones that pass. Or sometimes the one that don't pass, if it's really interesting. Okay. So I'm gonna go ahead and start with why number one, again, to twenty twenty at Nurosso. I said yes. Celia? I said yes. Okay. Katherine? I also said yes. Okay. Alright. Number two is another twenty twenty at Nurosso, celia. I said soft pass? Soft pass. So kind of a mild, yes, but less enthusiastic. I'm a soft no. Okay. And I said yes. Number three, Catherine? I'm a no. Okay. Silia? I give that a pass. You said yes. Okay. I also said yes. Okay. So, that's very typical inter there's usually a really mixed reaction to wines. And, what we would then do is go through and talk about them and why they said yes or no. Sometimes people change each other's minds, and sometimes a wine that didn't initially pass people can talk others into it because they make a point about it that maybe we didn't consider. So for number one, celia, what was your what was your take on that one? Yeah. I thought the wine had a just a really lovely sort of, like, lean structure. I thought the finish on it was, it was lengthy. I really got into the city of that volcanic minerality in the wine. I did think the city was just a little high, but I think with food, it's certainly I thought it was a pleasurable wine. Okay. Katherine? I really love the nose on this wine. I got a lot of complexity from. I really loved why number one. I got a lot of complexity on the nose from Balsamic and Tar to Rose hip. I thought that it was very expressive in the way that I would hope at Nebraskaosa to be. Definitely on the fresher side of things, but to me, it fell very much within the range of diversity. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I I for me, I was I agree with a lot of what you're saying. To me, it was, I thought these wines were really, really different, but this one kind of hit to me the kind of the midpoint. It was like a good introduction. It had the it had the volcanic character, but it had a lot of freshness and it was it you got that sort of savory edge to it also that you get the volcanic, character of it, but it's not overwhelming. So I thought it was a good balance. Okay. Number two was a little less enthusiastic. Catherine, what was your take? You said no on that one? I did. I went back and forth a little bit. For me, the reason I hesitated was I could see the texture and the tannin structure coming around in about five years, maybe ten. But I, on the nose, this is so hyper savory in the world of, like, like, it smells like a whole beef stew to me. But including then, like, cooked vegetable. And to me, that's something that I didn't really see changing in the future. I think that's going to be a part of this wine, and to me, it it felt off. Okay? Cecilia? Yeah. I have, you know, I thought it was super savory and very gamey, which I thought in the context of tasting it on its own was, a little hard. I could see, you know, I gave it a soft pass, because I thought thinking about some of my, guests in the restaurant do want something that's a little bit heavier. I think this is something that I would recommend in my restaurant that has multiple, at nerosa's, bottlings. Because I just I think it does show a nice diversity of what's coming out of Aetna. But on a restaurant where I only have one space for an Aetna rosso, it would not be my choice. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. I was in similar. Like, it's it's pretty intense. Right? It's a lot of that tar and smokiness and gaminess and savory aspects. To me, it felt like it felt like a wine that was maybe either had bolder vines or had more, like, a lower elevation, like, a Fayuta Demetso or something, you know, like just a that that always has that kind of beefy, brawny character. And it's a bit challenging, I think, for American palettes. It's pretty it's pretty intensely volcanic. So, yeah, it would have to be in the right context. I would pass it because I I I actually think it's a really interesting expression of Aetna and certainly a legitimate one, but it it is not for everybody. And number three, celia, you said yes. Yeah. I, I thought the, like, rosy finish on this wine was really lovely. Thought it had a nice balance of a certainy and Tannon. It was a little ripe and fruit character. It was sort of like cherry candy, almost. But I would definitely I I felt like it definitely had a a a place. Okay. And, Catherine, you were a no? Yes. For me, the nose almost felt more like a whiskey than a wine, just very, very oak forward. I got a lot of booze on the nose, a lot of warm vanilla, sorry, warm leather, vanilla. But what also fascinated me was it almost felt like structure in reverse where I got all of those really pretty softer sides, like, in the aftertaste, and then I got, like, all of the kind of more structural things on the nose almost. It felt. So to me, it didn't feel very typical. Right. Okay. And and I I I was I had the same notes about the the oak. Like, I you could feel the oak. You could feel the sticky tannins, that kind of resinous quality, that sweetness. It just felt like the that the volcanic character had been kind of polished out a bit by by some kind of oak influence. But I but I do I did think I got the also the pretty florals, and I felt like it's a wine that I wouldn't serve now. I wouldn't sell now. I think it needs a few years to integrate, but I think that the for me, the the underlying structure and and stuffing is there And I think it can be really pretty, but not right now, just in a few years. And it actually felt to me less, like, I felt like number two was almost a little more evolved than number one. I mean, it was showing more kind of the dried fruit character and Whereas this one still felt quite fresh. So, those that's so then what would what would happen now? So, basically, all three of these wines had a majority of yes votes. So they would all pass. And then I would go and retaste them again afterwards. Sometimes I taste them over several days. I'll come back to the office the next day, and I will ask the the staff to save some because I wanna see how it evolves over several days. And then I will do a score. I'll finalize a score. And then at the end of the whole tasting cycle, when I've tasted all the Aetna rosso's, I'll get the key, and I'll find out what the wines were. So that is how we do it. And again, it's I think that that process, when sommeliers come and taste with us and see how we're doing it, I often get the comment. Well, that's actually a really fair way to do it because you know, we all know. Like, when you're sitting down and you see a really prestigious label in front of you, it it can kind of sway your views on on on a wine. And you can give it either more of a benefit or doubt, or you may not give it the benefit of the doubt because you have a previous impression that maybe wasn't so positive. So we feel like this is, the best way for us to to give unbiased reviews, and we feel like that has built a lot of credibility for us in the Sommelier community in the United States. So, that's really all we had to say. And I can to I I was gonna ask Cecilia and Catherine to just talk a little bit briefly about their particular operations, and then you guys can ask questions. So, Silie, do you wanna talk about delicious? Sure. Yeah. So we have, four different restaurants in the in New York City, and then, a spot outside of the city, and each one operates a little differently. We have different clientele at each of the restaurants, and the amount of Italian wine, changes based on the location as well. We have a restaurant called Barbasquale, which is a sicilian focused restaurant. So that restaurant, we try to keep at least one sicilian white by the glass, one sicilian red, one sicilian rose, And that, a category like Aetna makes up a significant portion of our wine list, whereas, region like Barolo or Babaresco or Tuscany, we'll just have a smaller, piece of the pie for that for that wine list and how it operates. All of our restaurants do also include a really heavy, component of French wines, particularly burgundy, and champagne. But it it varies just a little bit based on the clientele. So Farpaisquale is typically a younger clientele, people who are a little less wine savvy, but they're a little bit more open to exploring new things. So when I'm selecting wines for that restaurant, I do look outside of just classic producers and classic regions and classic varietals. If there's someone new and up and coming that I think is delivering something of really incredible value, and really punches above its above its weight. I really look towards putting wines, in that category there. Whereas our restaurant Charlie Bird is definitely a little bit more classic in expression. It has a very heavy heavy burgundy presence on the wine list. So when I'm selecting, Italian wines for that, for that list, I'm looking at wines, that can, can match the sort of presence of, you know, well known burgundy producers, because sometimes you're talking to someone. They said, well, I really, you know, I love this producer from Burgundy, and you're like, well, there's this producer in Piedmont that's doing really incredible things and has this lovely elegance. Let me introduce you to that. So it's finding different categories. So in in Charlie Bird, we're looking for, wines that are a little bit more classic in expression, and really hit hit sort of the those major points there. Gotcha. So at one fifth, we do have a number of domestic selections. We look at the relationship between the United States and Italy as it pertains to wine. Of course, we have champagne selections because we are human. But then also, the Italian side, I take very seriously. I've been working in Italian wine for about ten years. So for me, I almost have in mind a kind of bullseye in terms of the weight of what I considered to be more of our classic, predictable side of the list, and then also pushing some boundaries. So my first kind of criteria when I'm buying Italian wine, or really any wine is doesn't make me happy to drink. And if the answer is no, it has no place. I think there is simply too much good wine being made in order to have really any kind of fluff on the list. I'd think it's unnecessary. But at the same time, I, again, almost have a kind of bull's eye nesting egg kind of approach. So there will always be a core list of very well known producers, probably with verticals, things that are very familiar, but I am almost more hard on those wines than almost anything else, because to me, that is sort of the burden of representation of what is classic Italian wine. And so, for example, several different kinds of Edna rosso from something that's very light and elegant to something that would satisfy someone looking in that price point, who's maybe more accustomed to drinking something like a cabernet or a syrah. So, certainly, I wouldn't expect a grape like sangiovese to perform the way that cabernet does, but at the same time, the burden of the wine team is taking somebody, who maybe is not very familiar with Italian wine, saying something like, oh, I normally drink cabernet or Pino noir. I hear pretty much the four same varieties all day long. And how do we read between those lines and say, okay, you're telling me napa Cabernet, but I'm looking at you, and I think maybe there's some room to bring you somewhere a little bit new. So why don't I introduce you to this other really, lovely, full bodied red wine that's going to drink very, very similarly, but at the same time, maybe is a grape you've never heard of. So there's a leap of faith that has to happen on the part of the guest. Ninety nine percent of the time, they're willing to go on that adventure. I think, especially in New York, we're very, very blessed with a very trusting and open clientele. Versus going back home to the Midwest and, you know, convincing my family to spend twenty dollars on a bottle of wine. So that is really, I think the blessing and curse of American wine is the diversity of familiarity and knowledge So you really, I think, have to look very specifically at each market and say, okay. Am I looking to broaden horizons and maybe have something that goes towards a more metropolitan area where people are exposed to more different things or do I want to just make something not just? It's very, very noble to, take a variety in a region that are already fairly well known and just go very, very precise and very deep. Okay. Thank you very much. Let's give it up for Stephanie Johnson, Catherine Hoefer, Sylvia Ericson. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcast. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, and publication costs. Until next time.