Ep. 462 wine2wine Session Recordings | Hacking the Wine Culture in Africa

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Italian wine podcast as wine to wine twenty twenty media partner is proud to present a series of sessions chosen to highlight key themes and ideas and recorded during the two day event held on November twenty third and twenty fourth twenty twenty. One to wine twenty twenty represented the first ever fully digital edition of the business to business forum. Visit wine to wine dot net, and make sure to attend future editions of wine to wine business forum. Good morning and welcome everybody. Welcome to this session of, wine to wine. This one is titled Acano wine culture in Africa. And before I go into the nitty gritty of today's discussion, I would like to first give a shout out to the organizers of this event, wine to wine, bear on a fairy. In times like this when the world seems isolated where the fabric of our identity as humans is imbued by the coronavirus pandemic. It's only necessary that initiatives like this that brings a sense of community of communal living to the world is is in the forefront. So thank you very much, Erin, Affier. Thank you very much. Why to mine. Thank you very well for the business forum. So they would be talking about acting the wine culture in Africa, and I'm very excited with, the guests that we've got here today. I will be introducing you to mister Tindashi. Mister Taneshe is the owner, the director of commercial wines in South Africa. Now, his wines are extremely iconic. I've looked at it and said it myself. He's got a very good distribution in African markets, also in the US and in the Netherlands. He's been able to act the wine culture. When you move from six thousand bottles to sixty five thousand bottles, that's a big hack. So we want to hear his experience. We want him to share his experience with us. And let's see if this, we could learn a few things that could help us to better perform in the African market. Mister Tinnasha, the floor is yours. Please introduce yourself to the audience. Thank you, Tammy, for having me. And, thanks for wine to wine business forum for this opportunity to share my own knowledge and experience as well. So, yeah, I'm Tinnashinyam Doker, founder and director of commercial wines. Make my wines in South Africa, but I'm exporting to Zimbabwe, Kimyan, the United States and a bit of the Netherlands. So I'm just gonna share quick background on commercial wines and and what I thought it was different to kinda get into it and how I managed to to hack into the wine business. So I'm gonna be sharing my screen now for a while. So just bear with me. There you go. So this is Kumucha wines, Kumucha, means in it's a Zimbabwean showing a name. It means your home, your roots, or your origin. And I always felt men without a cultural context is lost. And while all individual culture, expression is dead. So I started this, wine brand in twenty seventeen when I was still working as a sommelier at the test kitchen restaurant in Cape Town, and I only had one thousand two hundred bottles to start off with was a Shannon Blanc and Samio blend. Was getting it from Upstar East State in the slang book, in South Africa. And, you know, I started to have a very cult following, following the demand. I I had a upsurge in Zimbabwe. Then in twenty twenty, I get a wall packaging design. And in twenty twenty alone, I would have produced by the end of December close to seventy thousand bottles. So this is a jump from one thousand bottles in twenty seventeen to three thou to sixty five thousand in in a year three. And my first export to the United States was this year, and I've been doing a lot of business in Zimbabwe with liquid supplies, Netherlands, and in Kenya, like I just mentioned. And what was the reason for the growth, And for me, I think it's part of the why I'm in this discussion where I say it's all about hating the African culture. So I did a rebranding earlier this year. So on the left, you see my old old label, which was a depiction of my old grandfather's homestead in Zimbabwe, which is a typical African home. You're gonna see a wonderful. You're gonna see, you know, I'm talking rural, not not in, in the, in the, in the state. So you're gonna see chickens all around, and, and I thought this is something we should connect to a more broader African people, especially to, to the Zimbabwean crab because everyone understands what commotion is. And commotion is much more EMP feral. It's it's it's a it's a way of understanding the person's origins or the person's home. So I I felt if I could connect with people in that way, I could really draw them into enjoying wine. And, obviously, COVID heat and lockdown. So this, this really allowed me to get because I was I was failing to get into the traditional markets. They didn't understand the story. They didn't understand everything. So with COVID and lockdown, it gave us more access to internet. And I was big on social media. I would get much more orders via social media platforms. I would get much more connections via social media platforms. And my online sales in South Africa grew exponentially. So because people were really getting, to know the brand. And, obviously, the Black Lives Matter campaign really increased my brand awareness. And it really made the American demand surge. And, locally, people are looking for a great, authentic, and, and wonderful wine brands to support. So I wanna say Black Lives Matter was an advantage, like I rightly say it increased their awareness for my brand, which was a good brand in in it as well. So I think three of those is is probably the reason I I I can explain to the growth in those three years. And this is the range of wines I had, all classic labels or beautiful different price ranges, and all telling a difference Doria as well. So six in the range I produce now, also in America, like I said, and and mostly in Zimbabwe. And, Zimbabwe. So Zimbabwe is my home. I was born and bred in Zimbabwe moved down to South Africa in two thousand and eight. So Zimbabwe is not a general wine drinking population, but with with so much of us being scattered around the world, I think we've picked up this wine culture, and some of us are getting back home. So they there's an increase of expert treats going back home to settle home. And since they have enjoyed wine, you know, they are appreciating wine much, much more better. And with, social media, Instagrams, and the food culture improving, there is quite a stage of of of wine consumption in Zimbabwe. I can't really pinpoint, the number of, or in statistics and figures. You see, you see Zimbabwe is, it's a very difficult country at the moment. So most of the stuff is happening informally. But and I think the question which people ask is can we get our money if we if we're exporting to Zimbabwe. Well, yes, I'm getting money, because most of these companies have set up, accounts for an account outside. So payment can be easy if you can deliver the product. So big wine companies in Zimbabwe probably stables winery, big five wineries, drop impost the one I worked with, Victoria Foslikorama mostly in the northern part of of of Zimbabwe, the tourist side, then you've got Elixir, which is bringing quite a lot of, European varieties, especially Italian wines. Prosecco is probably the number one selling wine in Zimbabwe at the moment in terms of sparkling wine. Then I, like I said, there's informal players. They call them runners. So these people would buy stuff in Johannesburg, put on a truck. So there are really a lot of small players But if you combine them in one basket, you'd find that they're probably supplying half of the liquor industry in Zimbabwe at the moment. So that's Zimbabwe in a brief, there's really a growing demand of wine. I'm doing probably at the moment Zimbabwe is the second, largest importer of my wine by volume and, and value as well. So I can safely say I'm getting paid, and there is a growing demand for wines in Zimbabwe. Mostly in the Black Media class and XX spot rates, on the, you know, traditional white drinkers were white, white, white, white, white, white, tobacco, but mostly because it was relatively easy to travel to Mozambique for holidays. They tend to drink quite a lot of, Portuguese wines. And these Portuguese wines, most probably are coming through the runners through the border town of Motare, but there is quite a demand of those, aso Garcia, Matia Rosay, is really doing fantastic in Zimbabwe as well. So like I said, for me, hacking the culture was was speaking wine in an in an African way. I always felt the wine language was so urest Eurocentric. I struggled also gasping the whole concept of, you know, blackberries, black currants where when I I'd never even tasted a black currant. So I felt there was need for wine communication which sparked in an African way. And also that we needed to drink wines in our own, in our own spaces, in our own culture away. Like I said, our background doesn't come on a formal dining restaurants per se, but we, as Africans, like to get together, you know, we love to drink wines formally. We want to drink in groups. And I felt no one was marketing wines for that in our own way. So I got around with with with friends and and and other creatives would really put that setup where I wanted. And the picture you're finding is It's a good friend of mine who does events in the Impopo. She got her, oh, her friends from different tribes in South Africa, and they joined Kumuja wine, and they actually requested wine. And when these pictures show, everyone felt comfortable in drinking their own wine, And another aspect, which is really big all over Africa is we we always have white weddings, but there's definitely have to be a traditional wedding where people wear African attire and people wear, you know, they really it's more closed family. The exchange of money, Lobola, we call it, Roada, we call it. So I felt, and I was getting quite a lot of requests when people wanted to do an African, traditional thing, but they also they they couldn't find the wine which spoke in the African in this way. So one of my biggest, drinkers of wine and take us of wine, you know, Africans doing their traditional weddings, beating, Ghana, beaten, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe, South Africa. And that's just a classic example of of how you can fit in with your brands in terms of speaking the right language and knowing the culture to say. And this is quite something I did recently on my previous trip to Zimbabwe, you know, honoring, local veggie tables and honoring the the different methods of cooking. Here I was cooking in a clay pot. I'm gonna play it for a while. So this really when I really posted it out to my social media, the amount of engagement I got with people missing home, people missing their grandparents, people missing their roots, and actually tasting the food from, from the clay pot. So it's really connected with brand commotion, and I think that's taking the the African culture, speak their language, with something we're used to, something we we formally used to. And I think it goes on to say that the African culture is just more than about white. So I was on the same trip. I went to a coffee plantation where my grand grandmother broscoffee, and it's the same way. So again, it's it's it's touching to the africanness in us, talking our language, but still incorporating that the modern world to, to really capture and captivate the audience. So this is what I've been trying to do. And then on top of that, I'm I've started describing my wines with flavors I grew up used to in Zimbabwe where I almost equate them to to the traditional European, foods and aromas so that I can get connection to my, to my, to my customer base. You know, it's, like, like, a wild blockage, you know, comparing to some apricots. I've got some wild hute, you know, blackberry. So this this has allowed me to really interrupt and make, the African culture, them to drink wine without being worried about being wrong with not picking strawberries at all. So, yeah, basically, that's how I've been hacking the culture with, commercial wine. And, and, yeah, it's it's been working all. Like I say, it's trust it's it's it's it's traced. It it is trusted because I'm really getting the sales and in the next year, probably gonna be tripling production. And it's it's the same same lineup, even wherever you go. I I I spoke of Zimbabwe, but Africa is just one in terms of culture and experiences as well. Mr. Snasha, thank you, extremely well. I picked up a few points from your presentation now. The story, how would you advise European wineries to communicate their wines in going into Africa. Because I think that one of the things from the way you've act the culture is to re represent the wines to people in a way that they will best understand. Yes. I think that's a bit lacking from where we sit as a European winery. How do you how do you explain this to them? What's your advice to them to better communicate to the African people? You know, the best communication is not to cheat wine as a as a as a as a product when you're selling to these people. You know, it's it's a I felt most of the wineries, are selling wine, and they're not selling an experience, you know, interesting. If you find if you whatever they're selling in other markets, there's a food component to it. There's an experience to it, but whenever it comes to Africa, it's just guys, people drink wine and expect to find this. So I think that the the best way is to sell the experience. You can sell the the the the Italian experience cooking pasta but sell it as an experience how you can, or incorporate, you know, African flavors in the, in the Italian cooking. They're there by you connecting, and you're just not selling a product, what's just in the bottle. So I think the best way is to sell experience and try to connect with African experiences. Thank you so much. That's so perfect. You you from the labels of your wines, I see that they are all classic labels. It's also anything funky, any into youthful, anything. So you don't have this because in Italy now, we see a lot of bottles that are painted, coated bottles, and all that. Yeah. And does are you saying that those kind of styling does not work in Africa or does really work out. This is just your own way of communicating to the people. Yeah. To be honest, I don't think it works because if you it's it's another culture, I think. How many did you grow up with the painting in my house? I never grew up into painting. I love paintings, I love art, but I can't really connect and interpret with it. So I don't think that will work as African. I think the simpler and the more clearer and the more classic the label is and easy to understand, the better. Interested. Before we go to the reef, we have some questions on the on the charts. But before we go into that, just wanted to ask a few more questions so that we'll be clear on this. Now, if you leave South Africa and go a little bit up to to the east, to the west, actually. You're in, Namibia. Yeah. Now that's a former German colony. Yeah. A different language, a different people. If you go up to the east, you're in Mozambique. Yes. That's Portuguese. Yes. And then you're coming from South Africa, which is originally English. If you go farther away onto the oceans in Madagascar and that's French, that these various backgrounds and orientations. Does this apply also in the way we present the wines to the markets? Is this a factor? Yeah. Like, at the end of the day, you know, you Everyone has its origins, you know. One of origin Italy, Veneto, one of origin, South Africa, and and wine has to honor that. But I think when it comes to selling, try to make the origin be of the place where the wine is going or the place where the wine is going to be sold. That's why what what I found easy for me. So in in doing so, you don't have to worry about the difference in languages, difference in cultures. Once you know the origin where you're going, it makes it easy for you to tell the story because you understand. So it brought back to me, not just dumping wine and selling wine as a product. Otherwise, you won't make the connection. So for me, I think let's find the other origin of where the wine is being consumed and what what that experiences that wine does to them. So language and encounter then doesn't become a barrier because everyone wants to drink good wine. And if you have good wine, That's what you want. Thank you very much. Finally, what's your biggest challenge in the business? What's your biggest challenge in the market in Africa? The biggest challenge in Africa has been moving, the product you know, it is it's quite like I've got a, container going into Kenya now, which is stuck. And my importer had to air freight it. So it's it's quite quite difficult. The logistics, and and some cost involved. But I think if you work with a seasoned, importer and distributor, it's all smooth and plain when I started in Zimbabwe, it was quite difficult, but my new importer, very smooth. And my new importer in Kenya is very smooth as well. But I just think the challenge is getting the product from a to b. From point a to b. Thank you very much, mister Tani. It's been fantastic talking to you. Now we'll go to the chat. I'll read out the questions and we'll try as much as possible to give and answer the questions that we have. My first question is from Alexis. He says, what are the most important markets slash countries in Africa? And what's the turnover in terms of volume and volume? Your most important markets I would like to share a few words on this and what you go first. So I think the most important for me has been, Zimbabwe. And is that because you are Zimbabwe and then you understand the market best or because this is just a market for one? I think, to be honest, it was just pretty much from the from a clean slate, that didn't help me much. But I think because of the brand and the story, it's quite picking up very well. My second biggest coming up very quickly is is Kenya as well. Like I say, I'm a I'm a very small brand at the moment, but in terms of commercial wines, I think in the last three months, I've, what, turned over twelve thousand bottles alone in Zimbabwe. Which is what, almost close to in in run terms, three hundred thousand rands. And this is just a space of three months. I've got another pending order coming through, and same as Kenya. So and and South Africa, another big one, but obviously is a big country I'm still not into the, value chain in terms of return distribution. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Just to add a few words to that as, as you know, Timmy walks with Zamin, and I'm also responsible for the for the wine. Sales into Africa. So the biggest market for Italian wines going into Africa, right, now South Africa still remains number one, followed by Nigeria. And then you've got runners like Kenya and Ghana doing very well as well. So, but your top five markets would be my, San Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, Cortevoir. And, I think the fifth one would be you you you're struggling with Ghana. So that's the biggest five markets for for Italian wines going into Africa. In terms of turnover, in terms of volume and volume, electricity with volume, but turnover for volume for Italian wine is going into Africa right now. It's I look at the full picture, internalized should count should be about sixty million US dollars going into the whole continent. No. I mean, sorry. The wine portfolio going into the continent should be about that. For the Italian categories, you're you're down with about five to six million US dollars going into Africa right now. Another question we've got is so people want to know which country do you do you start your distribution of your wines from? And is language barrier for Italian wine producers? Well, so I started my the first was Zimbabwe, obviously, then now, Kingam, I'm going into Ronda, And I don't think language is is not a barrier at all. You know, Africa most most probably people speak English and they might interpret, Italian as well. But I say, now repeat again. Language and and and bar and and, you know, either way, it's not a barre as long as you can communicate well and try to create experiences and understand the African culture. Interesting. Well, from from where I sit and, it's actually been a burial to to Italian producers. For example, most of the labels of our wines are in Italian. And then if you want to export to countries like Kenya, like cameroon, Kena with Monday to SGS with Monday to have that, they will translate it into English. Yeah. Yeah. And then you must have the sticker, the sticker saying that our call is prohibited for people underrating and all that. Behind it. So the Italian classic leveling does not really work in many markets. Cameron would have you translate into French. If you wanna spot to Nigeria, you have to do NAFTA and that will need you to translate that also into English. So language is quite very, in starting your distribution, my advice is for you to identify the top markets that you are willing to invest in and then start from there. There are markets that I call no doubt markets. The market that hold no nodes in different parts of Africa. For example, Nigeria is the no doubt market to West Africa. Kenya is no doubt to East Africa and South Africa to southern Africa. If you can start your distribution, if you're if you're willing to go through the huddle and start your distribution from this nodal markets, it's easy to expand into other markets from there. Yeah. And it has been a situation at the right. We pointed out before logistics is a big problem. If you've got distribution in South Africa, it's easy for you to get the ones into Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe. It's like, into Mozambique into Zimbabwe. So that's basically, my our response to that The third question is, what is the role of songs on our like, mister Souum, mister Tanashek? Yeah. So some of our songs. So I think that Yeah. So in in in general, in Africa, I think that the profession is still in its infancy. Like I've been in South Africa and probably the bulk of the sommeliers on the African continent are based in South Africa. So are the top restaurants in in the African continent as well. But I think now we've just recently adopted Zimbabwe into the sociations, so many of, international. So the storm culture is increasing. And why whilst it's increasing, obviously, the knowledge will increase as well. So in South Africa, the profession is really, really strong. And it's growing stronger, and it's got much more dividends in terms of the wines produced. But the rest of Africa, I still we're trying to get it into Zimbabwe, but Maurish's, they've got an association in Kenya. It's another gateway where a lot of WSTT courses are there, and I see the question, which is how in South Africa, as, you know, answer it as well. So WSTT is making inroads in South Africa and South Africa as a general I think it's the standard, form of qualification you can get. But in South Africa, because it's much more advanced in terms of restaurants and and wines, there's there's Cape Point Academy, and there's, yeah, so there's a so many academy. So there's quite a lot. But I think, WSTT is is is much for internationally recognized. Okay. To to just to add a little bit to that, away from the rule of thumb, I think that one one winery that has really done very well a foreign winery that has really done very well in Africa is C Y T contract. And what contract thorough did was not to use songs, but to use brand ambassadors. So what they did was to every nodal market in Africa, they send a representative of the wiring to access brand ambassadors there. So currently in Africa, I think they've got all six brand ambassadors. They've got one in Nigeria. I wanna gather someone in Kenya, someone in South Africa. And then these guys play the role most of them are so many as as well. So they play the role of introducing the wines to people and trying to get the wines, explain the wines in a way that merges with the culture of the people. And I think this is something that Italian winery should also look at extabishing brand ambassadors also on the African continent because Italy Italian wines are quite a bit difficult to explain because we've got many denominations. We've got many grip varieties. It it's quite a bit tech tech. Every region has its own rights, and then you are an expert on the wines of the regions that you deal in. So in order to get more, experienced as mister Tania had said earlier, to get more wine experience with people. It's it's it's easier to have this wine and basil just visit the market and then explain the wines to people. Find a way to blend it with the culture of the people and then the people would appreciate it more. That's just more of you. Yeah. Question four, which you've practically answered, but I'll read it. What is the wine education like in Africa? Is w e s c h s c t, a Dean or it's just something similar locally? Mister Tanesha had said it. W s c t is still the thing also in Africa. Some parts have got their own regional thing like South Africa with the Kipline Academy, Kenya, with the Kenya, similar association and all that. So regionally, you've got some bins, and I think Cameron also has got some something linked with France. But then it's just because the French wine. It's like a French wine academy thing. So I think that's the, mister Tania, you want to add something to that, buddy, which would go to the fifth question. Yeah. I think they've answered it all. Okay. So the first question says, and that's the follow-up on the first question by Alexis. What are the most important wine e commerce markets in Africa? And the knowledge of the wine consumer by geography. This is from Joseph. So, mister Financial, please. Yeah. I think, you know, e commerce in in Africa in general is still is still very, very slow. But I think, markets like South Africa are picking up well. I've recently started a startup, we call a startup called someone call, which is in the last month, and is really doing well. And I really believe in countries like, Kenya, it will really grow up as well. Most probably Ghana because they're a bit much more tech advanced in Rwanda as well. But to say they're important, why in e commerce, I think e commerce in general in in Africa is still in its infancy. But top of my head, I'll say South Africa, followed by Kenya, and maybe a bit of Ghana and Rhonda. Thank you very much. The knowledge of wine consumers for geography, it depends with, you know, most African know what they want and what they want to taste in the wine. But in terms of understanding the the wines in general, I think South Africa is a bit ahead. Zimbabwe's catching up. Again, Kenya, Ghana, and probably randa. Okay. We will move fast because of time But for for for the question, mister Tanesha just answered now. One of the biggest big, commerce chains in in Africa for last year and the LEDC was Jumya. Yeah. Now Jimmy's got a very big wide portfolio, but recently, also, they're struggling that that we can attribute that to COVID. You can attribute that to how difficult it is to to buy wines on online and all and other stuff. They do be online. But, yes, the biggest e commerce markets for Africa as of dates remains Kenya and South Africa. Those are the big players. One knowledge for geography, South Africa leads the path. Kenya has got a very big, it's, Italian, residency. A lot of Italians are in Kenya. And because of that, Kenya has also got a very good wine knowledge. The French speaking market have very good wide knowledge because they come from that French origin, that French, dissidents. So you market like cameroon could have a very big on French wines and so they've got that also. Question six says, Are there any resources that could help those of us educating about wine, learn more about the African wine culture to guide us and give us more understanding. That's from Rebecca. Yeah. And so I don't think there there is any resources. Very great regretful that Africans were in documenting, but I think the easiest way you can do is if you're going in the country, at least try to find out the local foods they eat, the local spices they eat, the local food they eat, then you can always tailor made your your your communication against that, in the in the local cultures. I think it's stuff you can really Google and find around. But I think the most important is the local foods and spices and herbs and plants that you can relate, and that they understand a bit much more better. And I'll just jump on to question number seven before the time go ahead. Which is the the the factors influencing the pressures of Italian wines. I think in in South Africa, it's probably prosseco prosseco prosseco prosseco. It's influenced. But I think if you can, like, really build up on the success of prosseco and why people think it's light and delicious, I think Italian wines can really build on that. But I also, in Africa Price really matters. So, you know, the more affordable, the more easy it is, but I think just banging on Proseco and building from there in South Africa is quite different because people are purchasing in terms of their much more knowledgeable and there's easy access of a variety of Italian wines as well. Thank you very much, mister Taneshe. I'd just like to add something to that. I think that one of the biggest mistakes I see on the show, because every time I go into a new country and I've got Postways, I go to just the supermarkets. And then before I go to the restaurants in the hotel, just to look at what the shelf is like for for the wine assortments. The biggest mistake that in turn produces making Africa is they're not aware of self. Self awareness is very key in this business. Understand what you're good at, understand what the business is, then stay stick to that. I see a lot of Italian producers trying to produce something that looks French because they've been to cote de Bons in that, French wants to sell. But it doesn't work that way. It does time producers try to produce something that looks South African. It doesn't work that way. People love Italy. People expect the products that come from Italy have this authentic, originality. Italian producers need to stick to that. If you're about for each other, produce a producer, for each other wines, if you make prosect wise, mister Tanesha, they just stick for seco. And don't try to make something MCC sounding, then it's now prosecco, then it's downstairs. It's all a mess and price. Yes. But we need to understand that if you look at the market as a cheap market, there's no way we would ever play in that market because we cannot compete with the Spanish producers, You cannot compete with South African producers that got SADC and have paid low taxes on on their wines. You just need to be aware of what you have and find how best to reach out to the people. Communication is very key in this business. Especially with African people. Thank you very much, Tinnashree. We would conclude now just to recap on what we've discussed about. We said one of the points that we need to know as a term producers is to communicate our best to communicate with the people. How do you project the wines before the people? How best do you share an experience with the people? Convey an experience, not just a product or a product before there. Try to convey an experience. Try to tell your stories in ways that, relates to the people. Your liberals are very important. Classic label still works. Let's not try to push this funky looking things Africans expect that wine's coming from Europe. Wines coming from Europe. They look classy, and then they respect that, and they're willing to pay for that. Prasepo still leads the Italian wine pack. If you want to get into the market, and you're a principle producer push that forward, please. Alright. So at this point, we closed. Thank you very much. It's been fantastic having you, Mr. It's been a fantastic having your question to the audience also. For me, it's goodbye, mister Sasha. Thank you so much for having me, all the best with the rest of the sessions. Thank you. Awesome. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment production and publication costs. Until next time.