Ep. 467 wine2wine Session Recordings | How Covid-19 changed Wine Consumer Behaviors in China

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Italian wine podcast as wine to wine twenty twenty media partner is proud to present a series of sessions chosen to highlight key themes and ideas and recorded during the two day event held on November twenty third and twenty fourth twenty twenty. One to wine twenty twenty represented the first ever fully digital edition of the business to business forum. Visit wine to wine dot net and make sure to attend future editions of wine to wine business forum. She founded her own media platform called Renewal Join News, with a singular focus to cover China's wine industry. And, it is now considered one of the most authoritative and trustworthy news website on the Greater China regions on the wine market. So we're happy to have Natalie here. Thank you so much, Alice, for your kind introduction. First of all, I'm so honored to be here and sharing with everyone an update on China's wine market during and post COVID pandemic. As well as how those impacts are translated into buyers, buying behaviors. So without further ado, I will start my presentation now. A little bit introduction about myself to briefly. I'm Natalie Wong. I am a Chinese wine journalist, a born and raised in Hong Kong, and also founder of Willow Joy News, a website founded by me last year to cover exclusively and extensively about China's wine market. Today, I'm gonna be talking about COVID's impacts on China's wine market and how those impacts affected consumers' buying behaviors. First of all, this year, the buzzword we've been hearing is lockdown. But in China, when we talk about lockdown, it's in the strictest sense. You know, one household, household can only allow one person to go out once a day to purchase all the necessities unlike in Europe or in the US where you have the luxury to go out and to do a lot of tours in China. It's really strict. In areas that, are most affected by the pandemic, you're not even allowed to go out at all. There's a community officer who is, I'll stand by just to send all the necessities to you, to your door. So this is the context we're talking about when we want to understand COVID's impact on China. This is also the circumstance under which a lot of the business have to operate for three months from late January to April. So this is something I want to, want everyone who's listening in to bear in mind to keep it in the back of your head, back of your mind to understand, you know, the COVID's impact. So first of all, I'm gonna talk about COVID's impacts on China's wine imports. So what happened to Wine Court? By the end of January, China had locked down the whole country as a result, restaurants, hotels, essentially closed, and missed the most important Chinese New Year sales for anyone wondering, how big and how important is Chinese New Year for a lot of wine merchants. A lot of the a lot of them who that I talked to told me, Chinese New Year wine sales account for roughly twenty percent or even up to thirty percent of their annual sales. So imagine that seven day period was lost. Okay? And then imagine that period was extended for three months. So that's the challenge facing a lot of the importers in China. And of course logistics were delayed because quickly the pandemic spread from China to the rest of the world, even when China in May and June recovered from the pandemic, countries, like France, Italy, and, you know, US were in the depth of the pandemic. So that affected global logistics as well. Okay. So we have the latest figures from the China customs, and it showed import volume declined by thirty percent, thirty point eight percent to three forty seven million liters, import value clients roughly thirty percent as well to US one point eight four billion. This is quite significant because I want to draw attention to the fact that last year, China's one import value already declined. We saw roughly ten percent drop in volume terms and one percent in value terms because of the economic slowdown and trade war between China and US. So the downturn we are saying this year is, you know, a continuation of what happened last year as well. So that, you know, might have a projection for what is to expect and what's to come. Right? Okay. So next one, I am gonna talk about because of the job in wine imports and how it affected merchants, consumers, and the price points that we're seeing on the shelves. Merchant, of course, when you have stocks that are meant to be depleted for Chinese New Year that are still sitting in the warehouse, what do you do? When you have uncertainties facing forward, You are becoming more cautious. You are becoming more cautious with your spending, what to buy, how to budget. That's natural response. A market exit. Suddenly we're seeing a lot of merchants exiting the market. Unfortunately, one of the examples we've seen is from Jovio. I don't know how many of you guys are familiar with Jovio. So basically Jovio is a wine and agricultural importing company backed by the tech diet nanovo five years ago, when he entered the market to start to import and distribute wines, it cost a lot of fanfare. And naturally, they had, at its peak, I think, around twenty key brands including the world's biggest, organic winery and Indiana in in Chile and also Jean Pierre Moix families wines. Earlier this year due to the pandemic, its general manager said they're suspending the wine business. This is not a small, you know, one time importer. We're looking at, you know, a company that's actually has a quite a scale. So that's the direct impact of the pandemic and profit cuts, of course, a lot of wineries and importers who are having zero sales in February, in particular, consumers. When you have job uncertainties because of the pandemic, what you're gonna do, you you're becoming more cautious with your spending. You're cutting all the non essential spendings. Unfortunately, wine is counted as non essential unlike, you know, maybe in France or Italy or in the US. Consumers, of course, they're trading down. If they are buying wines at all, they are, you know, really budgeting what to buy, you know, what is the best value? What is the most affordable wine out in the market? This can be reaffirmed by the export and export data we just saw from burgundy, from January to September export volume to China, Hong Kong dropped by roughly thirty percent. And in value terms dropped by roughly around twenty percent. And we see, some increases in areas where it's, village, Appalachian, or Chavalisse, those kind of increases, but certainly ground crew, premier crew in terms of red and whites, they're all decreasing. Price wise wise priced under one hundred RMB is the most popular category. One hundred RMB, that's about fifteen US dollars. So what happened to on trade and why on trade matters? Like any other white importers in, you know, in the world in Europe or in the US, traditional ones are heavily dependent on on trade, on restaurants, and bars, on hotels. So when the pandemic happened, especially in China where the strictness of the lockdown is so severe and so carefully scrutinized and enforced. Restaurants and bars, you know, were decimated during the pandemic. And China, we're talking about country that has ten million restaurants. Chinese New Year, like I said, completely shut during the seven day National holiday dining sector alone lost five hundred billion. That's seventy six billion US dollars. Lorktown measure of various strictness were enforced from end of January to April lasting three months. Even in some cases, restaurants were allowed to open, but you can only do delivery service. Delivery service, it's good. It's a growth factor, but it can't make up for what's lost, from in dining, you know, services. And, Heidi Lau, that's another example, biggest restaurant chain in China lost a five billion just during CNY period just to give you an idea of the severity of on trade. And unfortunately, among all the alcoholic beverage categories, wine was hit the hardest. This is not said by me. This is actually coming from Wangzhou Ming Secretary General of China alcoholic drinks association, which is the official drinks association in China that regulates, anything related to alcohol in China. It's a very powerful, organ, and he basically said home consumption for wine was essentially non existent. As it heavily relies on social consumption such as restaurants. So the decline was the sharpest, but one stopped short, before giving any figures, on the decline. But, we can guess it's not a double it's not a single digit job. So having talked about on trade, the impact of COVID on trade, now we're moving to what happened to off trade sales Of course, traditional channels are supermarkets, wine and spirits shops. They all seem jobs, but interestingly there are two sectors that have seen tremendous growth. First one is e commerce. E commerce, of course, China is the biggest e commerce market out in the world. And second one that is really emerged as the growth engine during the pandemic is live streaming. Later on, we're gonna talk a little bit more about e commerce and live streaming home consumption, unfortunately, like Wang said, it's essentially nonexistent. Even if there is some form of home consumption in China, The reality is by Joe accounts for roughly ninety percent of all beverage consumptions. So even if people are drinking, they are looking to by Joe and then beer and then comes wine. So that's the hierarchy we're talking about. Okay. Next one, e commerce. As I said before, e commerce is mammoth area in China. Ecommerce accounts for roughly thirty percent of wine sales now according to IWSR. Tencent, the parent company of WeChat has roughly one point one three billion monthly active users. TMO, the biggest e commerce platform in China has over five hundred million users again. JD, second biggest has about over four hundred million active monthly users. Doeen, of course, the Chinese version of TikTok has, five thirty million users just in March. That's an increase of roughly thirty percent compared with the same period last year and its global users surpassed eight hundred million. So this I this data give you an idea of the scale of, you know, e commerce and social media in China. Wine consumption during COVID? K. So this is the tough part, and this is the tough part to digest for a lot of, people who are interested in China's market. Wine consumption, unfortunately, the frequency is reduced. Consumers are trading down, as I said. Minzhou todao, a Chinese, drinks publication, did a survey, during the pandemic, specifically to look at consumers buying behaviors in February and March. They said ninety five point six percent of respondents consumed alcoholic beverage during lockdown months of February and March. That's good news, right? But unfortunately, eighty four percent of the respondents said they drank Beijo, the Chinese spirit, while forty percent opted for wine. Once again, Bijo is their number one choice. This is another interesting factor. Seventy nine point forty seven percent of the respondents said the bot old drink, old alcoholic beverages before Chinese New Year. What does that mean? It means during the lockdown months in February, March, April. Essentially, Just a small group of people were purchasing wines. People are consuming their old stocks. Why? Like I said earlier, people cautious with spending when you have when you have so many uncertainties, unemployment was high, and you don't know what's gonna happen. In the future, people are cautious, and wine is not an essential spending. And only fourteen point zero seven percent said they purchased drinks online during COVID drinks So once again, that's, you know, doesn't necessarily mean wine. Once again, you know, as I said, bijo beer wine, that's the hierarchy. Price categories, this affirms the trading down trend because when you look at it, it says, if you essentially look at, what people spend, under two hundred RMB, that's the main category that constitutes the bulk of what people are spending Again, that's trading down. Mackenzie said, they did a survey of, two thousand five hundred consumers who, and thirty of them said they cut down alcohol consumption and skincare products during the, two month Period. Earlier, I referenced live streaming. And now we're really gonna look at and dissect the growth engine for any alcoholic or beverage or consumer goods are lodged during the pandemic. So talk about live. That's, by far, the biggest live streaming platform. They have seven hundred million monthly active users. This is actually old data at the taobao live. They haven't released the latest data yet, but I assume during the pandemic, it must have increased. The reason behind people using live streaming, according to, KAWO's latest social media report released this year. Forty nine, that's about half of Chinese consumers depend on KOL recommendations. And eighty four percent trust online reviews by their peers. So this is the power. And also, later, I'll talk about the conversion rate. And, you know, that's why live streaming is so convinced into customers to, in terms of making buying decisions. In February alone, number of newly opened live streaming merchants increased by a while. Seven hundred nineteen percent over January on T Mobile Just T. Mo, we're not even talking about JD or not talking about Gourmet, those platforms yet. So who are the people engaging in live streaming? We're looking at KOLs, key opinion leaders traditional celebrities, movie stars, singers, everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Brand owners, that's actually a main group of people who are doing live streaming. Winery owners, you know, area managers. And the latest entrance, this is very surprising in China, is local officials because when all the traditional stores, restaurants, shops are closed, They're the ones who are actually embracing this new trend, trying to revive local economy. Previously, we have a Chinese president, Xi Jinping, and Chinese premier, Keqiang, during life streaming as well to help farmers sell their agricultural products. In the next slide, we're gonna look at why consumers and merchants favor live streaming, view to purchase conversion rate That is really the key behind the growth because that is really high. That's seven to ten percent conversion rate. That means if you have ten one hundred people tuning in to watch a live streaming session. At least seven people will place orders while through traditional e commerce, platforms. The conversion rate is normally around three percent. So we're looking at doubling and tripling that rate. And prior to January lockdown, average viewership for live streaming on leading e commerce platforms is between five thousand, and seven thousand views. And in February, the number doubled to thirteen thousand and fifteen thousand by March, users' time spent on videos and live streaming had increased by eighty percent which is understandable. When you can't go out, you can't socialize people. What do you do? You spend your time on your mobile, on your laptop browsing and looking at things and hopefully placing orders. And now having talked about the power of live streaming, we're now looking at who are the absolute superstars driving, you know, live streaming in China. The number one personality is a woman, young woman, actually, in her early thirties called Via Taobao's number one life streamer, queen of Taobao. It's hard to believe that she actually managed to sew a rocket launch service for, close to US, seven million. And in, you know, one live streaming section, session, she showed, she helped a great wall. A Chinese state owned winery to sell its zodiac, seemed red wine. In one minute, one minute, she sowed thirty thousand cases. I mean, that's incredible if you're looking at any kind of sales volume from any kind of, if you compare that to wine porters as well, that's that could be a medium sized wine porters annual sales already. Only twenty seven years old, known as a king of lipsticks. So let you guess from the slide which one is Lijachi. She he managed to sell fifteen thousand lipsticks within just five minutes. And, just I think it was one week before Chinese New Year. He showed twenty thousand cases of Chinese State of once again, Great Wars Redwine, Bayway thirty seven within thirty second. So those are the records we're looking at. And none of them are as you have noticed, wine experts. They are basically just influencers personalities who build a brand that has a credibility that people can trust. A lawyer on how once indebted tech entrepreneur now turned a full time influencer made a debut in April. So that's, you know, when just when China was lifting, lockdown. Sold one hundred ten million worth of goods from resource to smartphone in just three hours. On May eight, he, started to sell in wine. That's his first trial. He showed one point six million R and D worth of wines from a Chinese wine brand called Cook in just one night. So how many people know those brands? None of us do. None of this are, you know, big international wine brands. And as you can see, all of those wines are pushing a Chinese wine. So that's a, you know, a preamble to what we are going to expect in, you know, in the months to come. Singles day, of course, we can't talk about live streaming e commerce without talking about singles day, which is the biggest online extravaganza. That, has been pioneered by T Mobile. So let's look at the report card. We are the biggest, live streamer from Taobao. So she sowed Oh, wow. She sowed one point one billion in revenue just on the eve of single stay attracting eight twenty million viewers. Lijati live streaming attracted six twenty million views. And six hundred ninety six million in sales. Just one just one night. So who are the so we talked about those mega stars online during live streaming who are able to move millions and millions of bottles of wines. And now let's look at the top wine focused live streamers. Lady penguin, of course, that's the first one that come to mind. Second one is Great Wall. This is a ranking actually done by a research company just looking at, views and click rate. So we have the I listed out the top ten Great war is the second treasury wine Estates massively popular in China, parent company of Penfolds, of course. And, that's a Chinese, you know, account. Once again, a few Chinese accounts, yellowtail. Most of them how so this is the challenge. I I challenge you to find out all the personalities and all those accounts and look into it. Give it a try, test it because live streaming is very different from watching a talk like what we're doing right now. You can interact. I can immediately see what are the questions. One time I tried One of the live streaming sessions on Taobao, I was just casually browsing and trying to find a pink trousers. What happened is, you know, I was, I saw someone doing live streaming and she was wearing green. So I asked, you know, in the chat room, It's like, well, do does it come in pink? And instantly, the host who's doing the live streaming? Yeah. We have, she responded and says, yeah, we have one audience asking, you know, does it have pink? Of course, we have pink. And then they had the models trying on a pink to demonstrate you, you know, design and a cut. At the end of it, do I really need a pink trousers? Not necessarily, but, it's the engagement that sort of compelled me to place the order in the end. But just to give you an example of how it's done, the next one, having said how it's affecting the market, now I am going to offer a little bit of outlook. Should have give you an idea what to expect, in the months to come. The first one is really good news. Dine in sector is coming back. Dine in sector is finally posting a positive growth in the month of October, which happened to be, Chinese national holiday, signaling entry sector is on track to recover. Second one, a little bit worrying from my perspective, more promotion for Chinese wines due to political and nationalist reasons. I don't know if you, read our report published in April, when there was a national campaign to urge consumers to drink Chinese wine. Tag line is Chinese drink Chinese wine. Well, all, you know, one point five billion people drink Chinese wine. Near, that's a question mark, but you can see where the trend or where that's heading. There is a conscious drive to encourage consumers to buy domestic products, which is in line with the self reliance, policy that's been hammering out by, Beijing at the moment. So this is something that people have to, watch out for. Also Xi Jinping in the second photo, Chinese, president made his first visit as after the two sessions meeting, which is the most important political meeting in China to Minisha. China's premier wine growing region in North Western pot. And, you know, he made a big gesture to visit a vineyards and visit a winery. Well, it's a big move that can be interpreted as a solid backing for domestic wine industry. So we we're gonna see more of that in the coming months for sure. And the third one to watch out or pay attention to is the current trade rose between China and Australia. The worsening relations between those two countries could significantly affect the country's land gape of imported wine market because Australia at the moment accounts for forty percent of, you know, China's wine market. If that is taken out in any way, what can make up for the vacuum. So this is something we have to watch out and carefully see how it's gonna evolve. Yeah. So basically these are the key three trends that I would, call people's attention to. Okay? Yeah, any questions you can type in in the, in the chat or direct questions to Alice, and I'll be very happy to answer the questions. Yeah. No problem. Thank you, Natalie. There are quite if there are quite a few questions on the chat room. I just wanna summarize very quick what you have said first. So we got the that it was a very good presentation. We heard about things might be. But when we actually see the numbers, it is really wow. We didn't now we understand the impact of what's going on. So we got that, the amount all the alcoholic beverages Baijio is the one that's doing relatively much better and wine for the hardest hit. And similarly, the best, among all the wine categories in terms of price points, the ones that are around US fifteen dollars are three in a better position. And secondly, even when people are drinking wines, they are largely drinking Chinese wines due to political and, naturalistic reasons. So my and my questions for you is since all these KOLs have such a huge influence on consumption patterns. What can, importers learn from that? Because most of you, like you said, promote Chinese one. What can importers learn from their I think, you know, it's a lot of credibility because in China, you know, people are very concerned about food safety and with COVID, people really want to, you know, pay more attention to health and traditionally because of the food safety scandals in China, you know, fish laced with nanomite, you know, milk powder. People really want to you know rely on someone who try the product who you know, who's the same as them and those people got their fame by reviewing products doing tests, you know, on themselves. So people really trust whatever they're promoting. The fascinating thing about Lijati, because he become famous, promoting lipstick, but later he completely branched out. Now he's selling every them from frying pans, you know, to sneakers, to tables, you know, to fans or lights, anything wise, but people still buy it. It's because of those people's credibility. And like I said earlier, brand owners is another major group of those live streamers. So you actually have people maybe a winery owner. I've seen a few winery, brand ambassadors doing those kind of live streaming session with JD dot com. Santia is the wine buyer there. They did a quite a few sessions. I think it's all about engagement, having a direct dialogue with people. You know, to share stories behind the wineries, you know, and just to share with people what's going on, how to handle the pandemic in the depth of it. Yeah. And does it usually require a middle person you think to connect wineries to these, consumers or you it's it's it's happening more often now that they can con producers can reach out into the market. Yeah. I think there are a few ways to do it. Either you have a four four producers who already have, like, a T Mobile shop you can register and become a live streamer or you can work with your importer in China, right, and to, you know, schedule and plan those live sessions ahead to promotion through we chat. So it's really not just, you know, one, the one end, you know, mean, it's really a whole ecosystem of collaboration, e commerce, social media, we chat, Singapore, everything combined together. Okay. Alright. Now, one of the questions we have on the floor is that we talk about, live streaming. What about, any ideas in terms of instead of doing a group live streaming? How about one on one streaming, especially if it's on more premium products? That I haven't seen yet. If it's one online streaming, I would say that's more like a private tasting. Right. If I understand it more correctly, because the idea of live streaming is really to have a audience to share with share with it. Right? So even if you are doing premium product, I don't see the downside of broadcasting it to you know hundreds of thousands of people who might not be able to afford it at this stage at least to get them to understand the brand stories behind it. I think that's the main downfall for a lot of wineries when they are looking at China. Oh, you know, it's like I can't, you know, no one is gonna buy it. You know, I'm spending so much time doing it to what's the, you know, payoff. You have to think about it. Although you can't even get the wines to China, maybe in the depth of the pandemic, but think about how you can communicate your stories to consumers. What are the stories that can resonate with consumers Okay. They're not gonna place an order immediately to buy a two thousand r and b bottle of wine, but when they come back, that's gonna be a wine they can reference back to when they're ready. Right? So it's always about planting those little seeds, I think. Yeah. And I agree. If we talk about KOLs in influencing, consumption habits, usually it's on lifestyle changes. What's trendy? Yeah. What's in but they probably won't know the stories, of individual wineries. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. If if they're a premium products, a super premium products to sell, it won't be as much on the lifestyle but more the story and culture and background of these wines. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, you know, when I did a story about you, those KOLs, I was selling a lot of wine importers. A lot of people were saying, oh, you know, it's a one time sale thing. No one will follow-up. But it's not up to those KOLs to establish your brand visibility. Right. What you have to, you have to work on the momentum. For instance, during one session, you sold thirty thousand cases of wine And then when you have to build on the momentum, you have to have like social media, you have to have everything to follow-up on those orders, right? And it's up to the winery to do that work. Yeah. Alright. Now you mentioned food safety. So we have a question on the floor as well. Yeah. What about natural wines? Since we talk about people having concerns with health. Oh, yes. That's a very interesting trend. I would say, maybe that's one thing I omitted from the presentation. Very good question. Natural wine actually has emerged as the category that the country is pushing right now. We just did a story about, a China's foremost, Viticulturist, he actually said, natural wine is the future of wine history in China. Wow. So that's a very, yeah, that's a very big statement, but once again natural wine, like any other, you know, clean wine. The concept of what is natural wine and, there is not a regulation or clear definition of what natural wine is. I mean, does the natural wine that he talked about match the same as the natural line we talked about in France. So there is a, you know, there's that. Okay. But it's let me know that there is a potential, good potential for that. Yeah. Definitely. And I a lot of Chinese wineries in Xinzhou or in Xinjiang going organic going biodynamic as well. In Xinjiang, yanxi, actually the whole town is, devoted to organic agriculture. So it's quite encouraging. And we have, wineries like Silver Heights in Lingsha going biodynamic. Puchang, I think in Xinjiang, they actually got the EU organic certification. And, a few different wines like Yee and swine in Nanan. Natural wine, he's making Penma. So it's a very interesting. Okay. Now we have a couple more questions here. Switch switching the different perspective. Since we talk about food safety and legality, do you see less illegal import of premium wines because of COVID nineteen? And if this, what is the result of that? Oh, yeah. Definitely. Less. Because, well, this is sort of like an open secret. A lot of wise imported, exported to Hong Kong eventually ended up, on the mainland. But because the border was closed, right? Even up till now, we still can't travel to mainland, So you can imagine how that has affected the illegal backwater way. We call a lot of coyotes. We we have a special term for those people who carry hand to carry, you know, two bottles over, to China. That essentially stopped during the pandemic. How are you? Okay. So we have about maybe two, three more minutes so we can try one or two more questions. But as one of the things we mentioned about Australia and and import wise, Australia used to take up such a big portion of import and now with the with the tension between the two countries, which country do you think is up next to not replace Australia but moving up I'm moving up. I think Chile. Chile. Chile, the only reason I'm saying it because, you know, in November, there was a big fair in China. It's a China import and not international import fare in Shanghai. So it's a second edition and it's a state backed, fair. I see a lot of coverage from state media on Chile and wine. So I should have picked it up as a signal to, you know, for Chile and producers. And Chile at the moment is the third, biggest, wine supplier for China. And in volume terms, it's even higher. It's the number one, I think. And, otherwise, I would say some really of the beaten track wise from Georgia or, you know, along the Belt Road. So once again, it's, you know, it's a little bit political affiliated. I would say, so Georgia, as a beijing, all those point all those countries might see a little bit growth, but they're tiny. So no look for American wise. Right? American is unfortunate. I have to ask. Yeah. Even before the trade war, the percentage is really tiny less than three percent. So with the trade war, with the tariffs, which now is close to one hundred percent. That's you know, reduced it even further. So I would say one percent at the moment. Alright. So lastly, we since we are coming from the Italy platform, how about the champions for Italian wines? What can we do? Well, I think there's a lot of, opportunities for Italian wines, and I see more promotions, on Italian wine in China, especially the, Venetrius, China roadshow. I thought it was a, you know, I'm seeing from as an outsider because I see the photos and I see what people were talking. There was a lot of buzz. You certainly see from the turnout. People are, you know, eager to go back buying and drinking again. So I think that's quite good. And more promotion maybe with the direct consumers. Because a lot of in the previous previously when I talked to a lot of producers, they want their Italian wines to be sold in Italian restaurants. I think that's a mindset they have to you know step out because eventually you're selling your wines in a foreign market where majority of people are still consuming their local food, their, you know, Chinese food, different regions. So the best you can do is to convince those people to match their local cuisine with Italian wine, not just limiting your Italian wines to Italian food. Okay. Maybe that will expand the market. Okay. Yeah. And I see that since Infiniti International is doing so much work in promoting Italian wines in in addition. Hopefully with the consolidation of these efforts, it can promote it can produce a bigger force to run to run the Italian wine market in the area. Yeah. Absolutely. So I think we're running out of time. But thank you, Natalie. It was a really great. Yeah. Thank you. We learned a lot, and thank you everyone for joining us. We have more exciting topics coming up for the for the next today and tomorrow. So please stay tuned with us. Have a good one. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Bye bye. Thanks to Alice as well. Thank you. Thanks, Natalie. Listen to the Italian wine podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HemaliFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production and publication costs.